  Detroit_pride Member Username: Detroit_pride Post Number: 40 Registered: 02-2008 |
Just heard that they currently are doing budget pricing to convert the building into 300 apartment units. | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 1226 Registered: 11-2006 |
wow - that would be interesting. I look forward to hearing some concrete details. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3816 Registered: 09-2007 |
Which Penobscot tower are we talking about? The annex (smaller) building or the main (taller) building? | ||
Detx Member Username: Detx Post Number: 241 Registered: 07-2007 |
Is this building currently abandoned or occupied? | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1340 Registered: 11-2003 |
Penobscot is occupied, and it's a wonderful choice if true... I've heard good rumors on this for quite awhile. | ||
Detx Member Username: Detx Post Number: 242 Registered: 07-2007 |
Thanks, DV. What's currently in the building now? | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1341 Registered: 11-2003 |
Radio stations (WJLB, and 105.7 I think), Friend of the Court, and a bunch of lawyers. They don't need to boot everyone - they could do mixed use or re-organize. It's got tons of space to install amenities and the like - there a few floors that are completely empty. Sticking residential there would be good. It's floor plans, from the times I've been there, aren't for the most part conducive for modern offices. And 300 units downtown would be a great kickstart to the local economy, and probably encourage more retail to stay open. It's probably the highest and best use for the 'ol girl, and should make the owners some coin. | ||
Detmi7mile Member Username: Detmi7mile Post Number: 159 Registered: 12-2007 |
I would love to live there. | ||
Dan Member Username: Dan Post Number: 463 Registered: 10-2003 |
Would the apartments be in the old Penobscot building, which is the smaller (10-15? story) building adjacent to the Penobscot? Or the larger tower? | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2228 Registered: 03-2008 |
For anyone who doesn't know; The Penobscot Complex is actually three connected buildings. Link to Wikipedia's Penobscot Block article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P enobscot_Block It was said in past DYES discussions that the complex has one of the highest office vacancy rates among occupied buildings in Detroit, but I don't know how much that changed after the Book closed. | ||
Eriedearie Member Username: Eriedearie Post Number: 4425 Registered: 08-2007 |
Oh WOW! That is my favorite Detroit building. In the 80s I worked on the 32nd floor. What a view from just about any window. | ||
Lodgedodger Member Username: Lodgedodger Post Number: 1350 Registered: 05-2008 |
I remember looking South on Gratiot (at Six Mile) and seeing the Penobscot building on a clear day. My old Assumption Grotto days. | ||
Deandub11 Member Username: Deandub11 Post Number: 299 Registered: 05-2006 |
Heard the same thing. I know the thought has crossed the Northern Group's mind. www.DetroitArmy.com | ||
Detroitstar Member Username: Detroitstar Post Number: 1414 Registered: 01-2006 |
Given the choice between empty office space or occupied apartments the preference is obvious. However, would it bother anyone that the oldest symbol of Detroit's economic power and one of the anchors of our "financial district" would be reallocated for something subservient of it's intention. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4057 Registered: 10-2003 |
The entire complex has just over 1 million square feet of office and retail space. I, too, wonder if they mean the tower building, the annex (23 floors), the original building (12 floors), or all three? This can't be the entire complex, or even the entire tower building, even with 300 units. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1342 Registered: 11-2003 |
What's subservient about it? Nothing, in my eyes. Frankly, I don't hold the "financial powers" that be in all that high esteem right now after saddling my great-grandkids with debt to bail them out. Giving a place that people can afford to live in and add to the community I am all for with people's tax dollars and regular spending, if this is true. 300 units is a neighborhood in a building and could add up to 1,000 people living to the downtown corridor. I gotta imagine they could fit more than that in that gargantuan structure. Times change. Buildings evolve. I'd love to see the same thing happen with the Lafayette. Talk about great news for the coffeeshops, retail, haircut guys, all of it. | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 1227 Registered: 11-2006 |
I would imagine they would use the 23 story tower, which looks like it might fit residential better than the tower. The remaining tenants in that building could be pushed into the tower, which is only about 60% occupied last I checked (before the meltdown - so it's probably dropped even more). | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 2079 Registered: 02-2006 |
300 new occupied units downtown would be a good thing. 300 (or 275) vacant units downtown would be a bad thing. Not the best timing for something like this, I'm afraid. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1516 Registered: 11-2004 |
True, if they plan on selling those units. However, there is a much better market for higher-end rentals right now. Plus, they could do rentals for a few years (long enough to take advantage of some sort of generous historic tax credit) and then make them for sale in 5-10 years when the market has rebounded and the Woodward streetcar is established. The issue with this project, as it is with every project in Michigan, is parking. The streetcar would help alleviate some of that pressure, but the developers would need some sort of substantial attached parking. There are two options I can think of off the top of my head. 1) A small surface lot on Congress next to the building. A thinner, taller parking garage could fit there similar to the new one in downtown Ann Arbor across the street from Arbor Brewing Company. 2) There is a vacant, 1-story building behind the Penobscott on Fort and Shelby. That seems like it would be easy pickings to raze and build a massive parking structure. If they did go that route, I would hope they would preserve the facade for ground floor retail. That would preserve a lot of the historical integrity of the block and maximize its property values. I have also heard a number of other rumblings in that area that would suggest there is some truth to this rumor. I agree with DV that this would be best to add 24-hour, 7-day-a-week foot traffic and vibrancy to that section of downtown. | ||
Grumpyoldlady Member Username: Grumpyoldlady Post Number: 326 Registered: 06-2005 |
And where are all these new apartment dwellers supposed to park? Many office workers don't mind walking blocks to a parking lot or structure, but if I've got 8 bags of groceries to carry to my apartment, I want a CLOSE parking space!!! | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 472 Registered: 10-2006 |
Wow, so the anchor of the financial district is giving up for good. I guess Guardian and Buhl are next? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4058 Registered: 10-2003 |
Focusonthed, Developers factor into their plans the estimate length of the approval process. If anyone believes anything about the predictions for the first and second quarter of 2010, then now would be the good time to start the pre-planning on projects. It'd be nice if someone could find a transcript of this report or some kind of link, because it also really matters which of the three buildings this would occur in, what market they are aiming for. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1517 Registered: 11-2004 |
Guardian is owned by the county now so it shouldn't empty anytime soon. Buhl still has a relatively decent occupancy rate, last I heard. I am not expecting a radical change in those buildings anytime soon. DV pointed out that the Penobscott's foot print is not the most conducive to what is en vogue for modern day office needs. That can be said for most of the early 20th Century skyscapers in downtown, such as the Book and Stott buildings. There is a significant vacancy rate in newer office buildings like the Comerica Tower and some of those fronting Jefferson. These will probably fill up before the older buildings, so taking the Penobscott to residential/office mixed-use shouldn't be seen as bad sign for downtown. It seems more like a natural progression for CBD office towers, a la Kales Building. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1343 Registered: 11-2003 |
There's a HUGE market for rental real estate. With people losing houses, they still need a place to live and most times they still are making some money. Also, let's be honest about urban pioneers - many times they're young, and maybe owning property isn't quite for them yet, or maybe not part of their lifestyle. Lifetime renters are possible and will occur even more so with the change in our economy. It seems to me that decent, moderately priced residential rental fills up in the area. City makes money off of income tax and property tax for the building. Retail and nightlife wins with lots of residents who need things. I think it's a great evolutionary step. Buying simply won't be possible or as accessible for the next decade, bailout or not. The reality is that our country is fundamentally changing, and being ready for those needs is important. I'm sure they'll figure out their parking situation, there have already been some good ideas posed or there will be a market that serves the area. Maybe (waxing optimistically here) we're heading toward a time where you don't do a huge shop every week or two weeks, but you make multiple trips (like I used to do in an old neighborhood) that are smaller and you walk. As to what I seem to keep seeing on this thread, around the financial district changing - programming for buildings will ALWAYS change and always has. The International Centre was a seed warehouse - Greektown was a warehouse and then a commercial "mall" and then a Casino - I know of an apartment structure that was once a repair shop; or a place that's now a club and apartments that was once all a music store. There's a place in New Center that was a factory, then commercial, and now a police station. It's downright folly to think less of the buildings or the area for the change - they still exist, are kept in decent repair, and contribute to the fabric of community by their existence. In some ways, it's a credit to their design that they've evolved and survived through multiple uses. There might be a day where it's no longer the "financial" district - to be honest, I've been around downtown for two decades of my life, and there's not that much actually financial going on there. It's mostly lawyers and government offices. It could be a convention entertainment district on the ground floor, with Cobo so near, for instance. Or, by day it's financial, and by night it's a neighborhood. Of all the neighborhoods in our city that create a "room" that would be desirable by urbanists to live in, that might just be a prime ticket. (Message edited by digitalvision on January 15, 2009) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4059 Registered: 10-2003 |
BTW, as of last summer, they were quoting an occupancy rate of 65% for the complex. | ||
Mallory Member Username: Mallory Post Number: 316 Registered: 05-2006 |
Great building. I worked on the 20th floor from '88 - '91. Back in the day, you could go onto the roof of the big tower. It took a little doing, but it wasn't hard. Talk about views! | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 1226 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sounds good: More bodies downtown, that's more money in the cities coffers, more reason for more retail and by filling these buildings, you create the need (eventually) to build more class A office space downtown which is what you need for business to come there. | ||
Motorcitydave Member Username: Motorcitydave Post Number: 159 Registered: 11-2004 |
^I agree... I was getting ready to type the same thing .... | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 775 Registered: 02-2006 |
Quick Fact- According to Wiki, upon its completion in 1928 the Penobscot building was the tallest building outside of New York and Chicago- However, 35 East Wacker or North American Life Insurance Building (its name on the Michigan-Wacker Historic District contributing property listing) and (formerly Pure Oil Building)[1] is a 40-story 523-foot (159 m) historic building in the Loop community area of Chicago, Illinois.[2] It was once the tallest building outside of New York City.[3] As with many claims of superior height definitions are important. This claim ignores the Chicago Temple Building's steeple.[4] If so, then the Penobscot building at 566' was the tallest Building outside of New York in 1928. <313> | ||
Fho Member Username: Fho Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2003 |
Probably my favorite downtown building as well. It's so very iconic of its time and style. I'm assuming it's just the upper floors where the setbacks begin that might be converted? I've always wondered what the original bank level looked like. I'm assuming it was where the court is now. I've never been up there since I guess access is restricted and I wonder if anything is left. I do know that it was a three level space that ran the length of the building culminating in the dramatic arched window we see from the street. There is a very intriguing photo of the space in the new "Guardian Building: Cathedral of Finance" book by James Tottis. I'm sure we're all aware they shared the same architect, Wirt Rowland. Does anyone have any pictures of that space then or now? | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 918 Registered: 10-2003 |
my drafting teacher in high school told me about when they were converting the upper lobby into offices in the late 60's. he said the former lobby was just incredible. i haven't seen a picture of what it used to look like tho; i'd love to see one. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 920 Registered: 01-2005 |
I am unimpressed with the management of the Building. I had to email them once when one of the stores was burning incense so profoundly that people were gagging when they walked through. Incense is the sure mark of a second-hand clothes operation or something else that needs to be covered up. Why did they allow it to go on for weeks until they got a compliant? The pretty little candy shop, the liquor shop, the excellent Epicurean Cafe (the new people have started to lack basic amenities such as butter and enough help) - all gone. Last year there was such excitement about the owners who were going to build that big new development. I knew it would never happen as promised because these owners are pretty small-time without a good understanding of what the building visitors could use and do want. | ||
Big_baby_jebus Member Username: Big_baby_jebus Post Number: 36 Registered: 09-2008 |
The view from there is quite awesome I would post pics but I can't get them to the incredibly small size required by your site. Lowell, you really need to up that size to 150kbs. Photoshop won't even save mine that small. Here are links http://i72.photobucket.com/alb ums/i163/urbandecay_photo/Penn obscott_5.jpg http://i72.photobucket.com/alb ums/i163/urbandecay_photo/Penn obscott_2.jpg http://i72.photobucket.com/alb ums/i163/urbandecay_photo/Penn obscott_1.jpg http://i72.photobucket.com/alb ums/i163/urbandecay_photo/Penn obscott_4.jpg http://i72.photobucket.com/alb ums/i163/urbandecay_photo/Penn obscott_3.jpg | ||
Ragtoplover59 Member Username: Ragtoplover59 Post Number: 454 Registered: 09-2006 |
Big_baby_jebus I think the Max size is 500 x 500, I used ACDSee to size pic's, The last pic was the only one over 50.KB Big_baby_jebus pic's as linked above     (Message edited by Ragtoplover59 on January 16, 2009) | ||
Ragtoplover59 Member Username: Ragtoplover59 Post Number: 455 Registered: 09-2006 |
left this one off by mistake  | ||
Big_baby_jebus Member Username: Big_baby_jebus Post Number: 37 Registered: 09-2008 |
Thanks man, appreciate it. ^^^^ ;-) | ||
Stromberg2 Member Username: Stromberg2 Post Number: 163 Registered: 10-2006 |
How did you get up there? Those shots are incredible! Stromberg2 | ||
Stromberg2 Member Username: Stromberg2 Post Number: 164 Registered: 10-2006 |
How did you get up there? Those shots are incredible! Stromberg2 | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 914 Registered: 10-2003 |
those made me think of this pisture:  thanks for posting those BBJ. | ||
Mallory Member Username: Mallory Post Number: 317 Registered: 05-2006 |
Stromberg, Back in '89, me and a friend made our way up there. We worked on the 20th floor and wanted to see if we could go all the way up. If I remember correctly, we took the express elevator as high as it would go. Then, I think there was another elevator (I really can't remember), but when you get to the topmost floor, it was nothing but wood paneling and an office door. We took the stairs up another floor and walked right out. Again, I'm straining to remember, and I might have it confused with another building, but I'm pretty sure that's how we did it. No railing, just incredible views. | ||
Big_baby_jebus Member Username: Big_baby_jebus Post Number: 38 Registered: 09-2008 |
Stromberg2 "How did you get up there? Those shots are incredible!" My office view, you like? ;-) | ||
Stromberg2 Member Username: Stromberg2 Post Number: 165 Registered: 10-2006 |
Incredible, I'd love to go up there sometime! Stromberg2 | ||
Dcmorrison12 Member Username: Dcmorrison12 Post Number: 8 Registered: 02-2009 |
Well, there isn't anything wrong or to be worried about, when you see that a building which is completely occupied with businesses and not living quarters, being partially renovated to include apartments. This is a new trend which is catching on in other major cities such as New York's Wall Street. I say it's a good thing no matter what - It's people living, eating and shopping in Detroit. It only builds the case to develope more retail and restaurants in the city. In these times, multi-use developments are becoming more common and attractive. I'm not concerned with the news, I'm embracing it. |
