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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 320
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 2:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just came across this tidbit:

October 8, 2005. Durand Union Station and the Michigan Association of Railroad Passengers present "Transportation Symposium: Passenger Rail Service: Past, Present, and Future." The seminar will be held at Durand Union Station, 200 Railroad Street, Durand, MI 48429 from 10 am to 4 pm and is part of the depot's centennial celebration. The program includes Clark Harder, former state legislator and past Durand Union Station president; a speaker from Amtrak; Michael Whims, chair, Michigan Association of Railroad Passengers; Dennis Braid, President of the Steam Railroading Institute in Owosso; William McKnight, former corporate secretary of the Grand Trunk Western Railroad; and a moderated roundtable discussion. Noted Railroad Artist Paul Adams will also be at the depot that day with a railroad art show. The art show is free of charge. Plans also include unveiling two new Railroad history books which will be available for purchase. Admission is $15 and includes a box lunch. For more information and to register, contact Durand Union Station (989) 288-3561 or e-mail dusi@durandstation.org or visit the website at http://durandstation.org. From Michael Frezell, MARP.

If anyone would like to attend, post a note here and we can arrange to meet somewhere and make the trek. Sounds interesting.
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The_rock
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Username: The_rock

Post Number: 841
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.42.251.225
Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba, old salt, I would hazzard an educated guess that the three stacker shown abeam the DETROIT is the CITY of DETROIT lll--which operated on the lakes til the mid-50's. We have the smoking room panneling from the vessel in the foyer of the Dossin Museum.
Although the GREATER DETROIT also had three stacks, the CDIII had large ventilating scoops on her top deck and I think they are descernible in the photo.
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Bob_cosgrove
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Username: Bob_cosgrove

Post Number: 250
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 207.74.110.147
Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 7:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Something most Detroiters don't know is that long-time Indian Villager, Maritime Historian and Director of City Council's Historic Designation Advisory Board William M. Worden, then just beyond being a teenager, is the person responsible for The Dossin Great Lakes Museum acqiring the Salon off the Greater Detroit III.

Bob Cosgrove
Curator,
Detroit Historical Museum
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The_rock
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Post Number: 842
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.42.251.225
Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 9:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was on the Dossisn Board with Bill for a few years. He is a reknown marine historian and former editor of the Steamship Historical Society of America. I believe he has the ship's bell from th SOUTH AMERICAN.

And now that I think of it, the GREATER DETROIT may have also had those large (ventilator)air scoops on her deck. Guess I had better check my sources! I have several.

I saw the GREATER DETROIT burned down to her hull back in the mid-50's out in Lake St. Clair. Sad ending to a very colorful career.
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 2454
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 3:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's not much jjaba could find about The Wayne Hotel downtown Detroit.

The Woodmen National Cenvention was held at The Wayne July 8-18, 1909.

They upgraded to The Statler Hotel the next time they came to town, July 1-11,1925.

The guys go for the best. By that time, The Wayne may have been kaput for all jjaba knows.

jjaba appreciates the scholarship shown by The Rock, et. al. Really nice reading.

jjaba, who knows nothing about ships.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 172
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.72
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just down the street from the Wayne, on Third near the Michigan Central Station, was a small eatery run by Albert Kahn's mother, Rosalie. {from Beasley book}

The info is out there, we just haven't found the right source yet.
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Douglasm
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Username: Douglasm

Post Number: 387
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.189.178.54
Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 10:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bump
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Me3head
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Username: Me3head

Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 68.84.184.153
Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 2:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The old Royal Oak depot was located south of where the track started curving over to Woodward. Exactly where I don't know, but probably in the vicinity of Washington. The old depot actually remained in use until 1950 (according to michiganrailroads.com)"


Does anyone know if this curve from downtown RO to parallel Woodward was what is now Sherman St? When I drove on it the first time I thought it seemed like an old railroad bed, and when I looked on the map I thought that maybe it was a siding, but this seems to indicate otherwise.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 506
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.201
Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 4:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Last September Burnsie posted that yes Sherman follows the old GTW RR path - last entry here

The Royal Oak depots were on Washington - DUR on the corner of Fourth (with a link to a recent corner pic), GTW north of Fourth.

There's some Birmingham DUR info here and some GTW RR here

Couldn't find any info on this, but on an 1895 Detroit map there's a Beaufait Station shown at Beaufait & Jefferson - shown about the size of the West Detroit Depot at Junction and larger than the Baltimore & Woodward depot.
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Bob_cosgrove
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Username: Bob_cosgrove

Post Number: 262
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 207.74.110.213
Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The East Jefferson and Beaufait station was in the old George Russel home, which I incorrectly called the Henry Ledyard house in an earlier posting. It probably was late and night and I got my railroad barons mixed up. Hence, it was quite different from the West Detroit or Woodward Avenue stations,which were standard railroad buildings.

Dr. George Russel was the founder of the Detroit Car Works, which he sold to George Pullman in 1871 for his Pullman Palace Car Company. This was Pullman's first manufacturing plant, before that he contracted his car building out to other plants.

See the posting on the October 28/29 Detroit Car Building Symposium at the Colonel Frank Hecker mansion and the Detroit Historical Museum.

Bob Cosgrove
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 182
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.24.178
Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 10:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

An aerial shot of the track re-alignment of the GTW main through Royal Oak, looking northwards, 1930s.

GTW ROW R.O.
GTW ROW R.O. 1
WSU/VMC both
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 199
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.40.251
Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fort Street Union Station 1970s



Fort Street Union Station 1970s 2

The End
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The_rock
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Username: The_rock

Post Number: 858
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.42.251.225
Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well done, Hornwrecker. For us old-timers, you can keep those photos coming every day.
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 346
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 10:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What a building ! WOW. great photo
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Dodgemain
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Username: Dodgemain

Post Number: 50
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 68.41.191.58
Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen Psip
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Douglasm
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Username: Douglasm

Post Number: 391
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.189.178.54
Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeez....
....this is a most educational thread. Info on Fort Street Union is hard to come by on the web, then to cap it off with those two photos. Thank you, all.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 1974
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 11:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's see what I can throw up on this thread. I haven't followed it too closely, so pardon my ignorance.

First, here's a map I have from 1923, for whatever it's worth. A little hard to read, but it shows some of the original street pattern and the railroads from Penninsular Stove Co on the west to the GTRR Depot on the east. Just below the Union Depot is the unlabeled MCRR freight depot, along Woodbridge:

1923

Next, Royal Oak. I don't know much about Royal Oak; when was the GTRR realigned and where was it moved from and to? The first map I have is from circa 1911:

RO 1911

Ten Mile Rd across the bottom, just above the race course, and obviously Woodward to the west of the tracks. North of town, does the GTRR run that close to Woodward now? It's hard to see on this map, but the DUR is represented by the dashed line of Woodward up to Washington, through town to 11 Mile, west on 11 to Woodward, and north again on Woodward. Also, a branch runs up Main Street north of town.

Here's another map showing the DUR lines. The alignment of the GTRR on this version must be the current route?:

RO DUR 1
RO DUR 2
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 347
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 1:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I made an overlay for a google map that shows where the realignment was. Sherman Drive in RO is the old roadbed. I guess the Overpass on Woodward in Hornwrecker picture is the Stewart Crossover? I can't seem to get my bearing with that picture.

Google MikeM
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 1979
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 2:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I looked at a topo and I see now where it is. We're looking NW at the 12 Mile underpass with the divided boulevard Vinsetta running from left to right.

12 Mile & Vinsetta
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Psip
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Post Number: 348
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Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 2:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK so that box in the lower right is the 12 mile overpass for the NEW Grand Trunk line. I think I got it now, Thanks Mike
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Psip
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Post Number: 349
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now I have my bearings....Labeled Photo
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 1980
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where is the old rail bed along Woodward now? Was it used to "double-track" Woodward, becoming the northbound lanes?
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The_rock
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Username: The_rock

Post Number: 862
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.79.90.93
Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 8:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do I see Shrine of the Little Flower at the NE corner of 12 Mile and Woodward?
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 351
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 9:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Its hard to tell Rock. I looked up the history of Shrine, but didnt see any date when it was built or founded. Here is a CU of the area, the resolution is not very good.
shrine
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 204
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.40.199
Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My enlargement is better.



Here is what might be traces of the old ROW along Woodward. There's a hint of some dark lines, parallel on the eastside, sorry Jjaba.

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The_rock
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Username: The_rock

Post Number: 863
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.42.251.225
Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 9:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I'd say that's the Shrine, but the Suzie Q. north of it was not yet built!
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 362
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Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did some digging at the Royal Oak site,
Here is 12 mile and Woodward before construction of SLF. Clearly you can see the GTWRR lines.

Woodward 12 Mile

A very early photo of SLF before the main building went up. This is what we see in the above arial photos. c1930

SLF

The Detroit Urban Railway (DUR) in downtown RO. note the GTWRR station in the background.

DUR

The GTWRR Station

RO Station

The brand new 11 and 12 mile viaducts c. 1931

11 mile
12 mile
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2503
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 2:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Psip, do us a favor and photograpgh the 11 and 12 Mile Rd. crossings now. That would be a wonderful contrast. Those two photos are some of the best. Thanks. jjaba loves your work and this thread is now into a legacy thread. Great work for the people, Psip.
jjaba
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 224
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.223
Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is what the interurban lines looked like on the side of Woodward before it was widened. This was taken in the 20s around 7 Mile. It looks like they are in the process of paving it.

7 & Woodward 20s
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 363
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Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Naw Hornwrecker, Its spring, that is the 1920's version of orange barrels.. they were called saw horses, but had the same effect of snarling traffic. I wonder if they had to slow down to 45 MPH?
Neat photo.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 1994
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.247.229.78
Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 11:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you look closely at the larger size photo of the Woodward & 12 Mile intersection at David Penney's Historic Royal Oak website, you can see the billboard advertising the future Northwood subdivision, part of the 1920's real estate boom. Looking even closer, across the street from the billboard, you can see the shadow of what I think is an old wig-wag railroad crossing signal.

Nice example of the early use of the airplane for aerial surveys.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2509
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 1:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gimme a guess on the makes and models of the cars in this wonderful 7 Mile Rd. and Woodward shot. Also, any hint where the streetcar was made and that date?

Wonderful photo.
jjaba on the Woodward car. Next stop State Fair Terminal.
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The_rock
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Post Number: 868
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.42.251.225
Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 9:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Memory time---Between high school graduation and going to college in the Fall, my dad was paid a dollar a trip to deliver a newly manufactured Oakland automobile (forerunner of the Pontiac) from Pontiac to downtown Detroit. Then he would hop on that inter urban car (15 cents-it came out of his dollar) and would ride the trolley back to Pontiac. Given the schedules, he could make $5 a day ( minus 75cents for the ride back home).
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 2518
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great story Rock. Did the Rock ride shotgun with daddy or was this before The Rock's time?
jjaba
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2002
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Posted From: 24.247.229.78
Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder which was quicker, the car or the interurban. How many tires did he have to change between Pontiac and downtown?
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 228
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.40.46
Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A couple of Detroit area, interurban photos; don't know anything else about them than what you see.

DUR interurban

This one might have The_Rock's father trying to shove his way onboard. Looks like a Tokyo subway at boarding time.

DUR Downtown

Info about the Detroit United Railway in B'ham.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/5144/dur1.htm

Jjaba asked about where these interurban cars were made and when:

http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr368.htm

More photos of DUR cars:

http://www.davesrailpix.com/odds/mi/mi.htm

(Message edited by Hornwrecker on October 13, 2005)
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2519
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 2:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks to Hornwrecker for the hotlink. It was loaded with information and ein bissel religion as a bonus.

jjaba, Westside Bar Mitzvah Bukkor.
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The_rock
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Username: The_rock

Post Number: 870
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Posted From: 68.42.251.225
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kudos to Horwrecker! I especially enjoyed the pictures of the Pontiac to Detroit Division.
The time era of the interurbans preceeded my entry on the good planet earth, but my dad and others filled me in on these interesting transportation modes.
This summer I had the opportunity to tour the Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine. Really a neat museum and they had trolleys and inter urbans from all around the country, many of which were still running and others were in the process of being refurbished.
The docents and operators there are older and very dedicated, but are quite concerned that the next generations of the citizenry don't have the keen interest in preserving these trolleys and it is not certain that the museum will stay open for years to come.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 231
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.81
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Jjaba. When I found that page, I said Hornwrecker, this is a great page on an obscure topic. Scrolled down to the end. WTF? Clicked on the main page. Holy crap! Sometimes one needs a reminder of what is out there. Yikes.

I'm surprised that the DUR line was torn up in 1931. I guess that cheap cars, and faster service on the GTW did them in. Interurbans were built and run on a shoestring budget, and the land they owned was probably a lot more valuble than their business. I wonder how much their buiding costs would be in today's money.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2521
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 2:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for your sensitivity Hornwrecker. That hot link was just a taste of what minorities see daily. When religions tell members to go fishing in every way, they do it.

Interurbans are springing back up big time in America. Maybe not Detroit, but a lot of other places.

Their doom was because of the convenience of Detroit's automobiles. People can afford cars and they bought them like crazy. Cars defined how and where we lived.

Today, progressive cities are again building interurbans. The existing lines are being modernized as they find the car has many limits.

Not only the high density subways, metro trains ply rural areas again. jjaba cannot report any funeral trains or milk runs from farmers, but they might come too. Some examples are the Miami, Salt Lake City, Atlanta, New York, Chicago, St. Louis, Portland, Ore., Sacramento, Bay Area of Calif., Los Angeles, San Jose, Philadelphia, Cleveland systems. There are many more.

As usual, Detroit doesn't have the vision, the leadership, the money, nada.

jjaba, tells it like it tis.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2005
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.247.229.78
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Increasing auto ownership was of course a big factor in the demise of the trolleys, not just because of the convenience of personal transportation, but because the growing number of traffic signals slowed the street cars and interurbans to unacceptable speeds.

My mother hated them. Getting out of work at Hudson's she would often have to walk towards the river to get on a street car since they would be full by the time they got to the stop closest to Hudson's. Even then, it would be standing room only, and she wouldn't get a seat on the Grand River line until after the Wyoming stop. It was unbearably hot, even in winter, eveyone stunk, and it could be nauseous. Frequently she would hop off to get some fresh air then get back on after a few cars had passed.

I have the series of books on the interurbans by Jack Schramm at home; when I get there I'll see if the photos above are included and post any details for you.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2528
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MikM, what's mother's old address here on the Westside.

jjaba came up with feeder buses. The street cars on Grand River Ave. were long gone. He did take the Oakman streetcars to Manchester Yards in Highland Park, changing there for Woodward Ave. PCC cars downtown.

jjaba, Northlawn and Schoolcraft.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2006
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Posted From: 24.247.229.78
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She lived around Redford; Beaverland first block south of GR, Berg, first block north of GR, somewhere on Shiawassee before it was named Shiawassee, Clarita east of Shiawassee, and Kentfield first block south of McNichols.

Her family engaged in a few enterprises such as raising chickens (roasters) and growing flowers in their greenhouse. Power outages put an end to both.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2532
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mazel tov MikeM. 2,000 posts.
State your email address, jjaba sends prize.
jjaba
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2010
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.247.229.78
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sweet! I knew there'd be a payoff for posting instead of cutting my lawn:

kc8ttv@comcast.net
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 368
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 1:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well after all of our hard work reserching this station, I came across a web page dedicated to the Fort Street Station. The last line in the article is very telling
In January 1974, the depot was demolished, foiling efforts by preservationists to save it.
(note: this site is bible thumper safe)
http://www.detnews.com/metro/h obbies/hotbox/fall93/union/uni on.htm

but not to fret, more info to follow shortly

(Message edited by psip on October 15, 2005)
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 369
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Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 2:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From the Engineering News Record Vol. 88 No.25 June 29, 1922

Pennsylvania R.R, Will Extend
Lines to Detroit
Project Now Under Way Includes 20-Mile Cut-Off and Large Terminals—Gravity Yard and Double-Deck Freighthouseg

RENEWAL of active construction work on the Detroit extension of the Pennsylvania R.R., including a new line and extensive terminal facilities, is an important feature in railway development which was authorized in May and will, cost about $16,000,000. This new extension' of the Pennsylvania. E.R- System has been proposed for some years, since.its Toledo terminal is within sixty miles of a great manufacturing and ship¬ping center at Detroit. Work was commenced shortly before the World War and was resumed when the rail¬ways had been returned to private ownership after the war, but owing to unsettled and unfavorable conditions little progress has been made until the- recent-order foi the completion of the work. The-line is1 being built under the name of the Pennsylvania-Detroit R.R.

Since the general route is already-traversed by sev¬eral existing lines it was found economical to. Utilize these as far as possible by obtaining trackage rights; but a new line will be built for'about one-third of the distance. For the-past two'or three years the Pennsyl¬vania R.R. has been operating passenger trains between Toledo and Detroit over the Pere Marquette R.R. and Wabash R.R. by way of Romulus, Mich.
Toledo-Detroit Line—Starting in Toledo at the junction of the Pennsylvania Lines with the Ann Arbor R.R. near Galena St. this latter road will be used to Alexis Junction, 4.37 miles, and will be.double-tracked by and at the expense of the former road. From Alexis Junction the Pennsylvania Lines have secured joint trackage and industrial rights on the double-track line of the Fere Marquette R.R. to Carleton, .a distance of 25.33 miles.

A new 20-mile.line now under construction will ex¬tend from Carleton to a junction with the double-track line, of the Wabash R.R. just west of its bridge over the River Rouge. Ultimately this will be double-track-but only a single track will be built this year. The new line will reduce the distance by about 43 miles as com¬pared with the present route through RomulUBj Mich. From this new junction trackage rights have been secured from the Wabash R.R. for about one mile to DeUay. Beyond this point both trackage and industrial rights have been obtained from the Wabash and Pere Marquette railroads as lessees of the Detroit Union R.R. and the Fort St. Union Depot Co. Thus the Pennsylvania R,R. will have joint use of the passenger terminal at Fort and Third Sts. which is within a half-mile of the city hall.

The Carleton cut-off or new 20-mile line will branch from the Pere Marquette R.R. with a light curve and continue as a long tangent to the west end of the Ecorse yard, where a slight angle will be made and the two main tracks will encircle the yard. • The one track now being built passes on the north side of the yard. Be¬tween Toledo and the Ecorse yard the maximum grade will-be 0.3 per cent. On the passenger tracks there will be grades of 1 per cent around the yard and on the approach to the viaduct leading to the Fort St. union station. Grading for the new line and for that part of. the Ecorse yard to:be. built this year will amount to about. 360,000 cu.yd./. The only- important bridges are a double-track reinforced-concrete arch bridge having four 40-ft. span's and. the steel bridges over, the
Ecorse freight yard...The; former bridge was partly built in 1918-1919 at which-time the substructures for the other bridges were built. All main line junctions and grade crossings will be equipped with interlocking switch and signal plants.

Terminals and Yards— A large terminal freight yard with gravity switching will be built at Ecorse, at the east end of the new line, about 300 acres having been obtained for the site. There will be two hump yards for northbound and southbound service, together with an engine terminal for freight locomotives. The combined capacity of these yards will be about 12,000 cars
and the partial development carried out this year will provide for about 1,100 cars. At present only temporary engine facilities will be provided as it is intended to have the freight engines make round trips from Toledo.

An extensive-city freight station will be built, the Pennsylvania lines having purchased all the property between Congress, Lamed and Third Sts. and Brooklyn. Ave. The tracks will branch from the viaduct of the Union Depot line and will enter the second-floor level, of the freight station. An inbound freight house 80, x 1,060 ft. fronting- on Congress St. will have three storage floors above the. track floor. An outbound; freight house 60 x 700 ft. will front on Larned Street and Third

Between these two buildings and at the upper or track level will be four team tracks with standing capacity for 95 cars, this yard having two driveways reached by an inclined approach from Second St. with-a bridge-over Third St. This year only the outbound house will be built and will serve temporarily for both inbound and outbound business. It will be a steel frame structure with brick walls.

A city team-track yard within 2 miles of the city hall has been provided for by the purchase of ten acres-fronting: on Fort St. between Summit and McKinistry Sts., extending about 1,000 ft. to the joint tracks. This yard will have a capacity eventually for about 250 cars and it is proposed to build trackage for about 90 cars this year. Passenger equipment will be provided, for by a new engine house and coach yard to be built be tween 12th and 21st Sts. Part of the property to be improved is occupied by the roundhouse and coach yard of the Pere Marquette R.R. but the old building will make way for a larger structure for the joint use of the two railroads.

Important industrial connections are included in the project. In addition to those connections alone the present tracks from Delray to the passenger terminal the Pennsylvania Lines have secured trackage and in¬dustrial rights over all tracks of the Pere Marquette and Wabash railroads east at the River Rouge, as in¬dicated by dotted lines in Fig. 2. The Pennsylvania Lines have also constructed the industrial branches shown in solid lines. It is proposed to- construct this year the wye connection between the Pere Marquette and Wabash railroads just east of the River Rouge and also the extension frorfc the present end of tie line around Detroit to Highland Park thus completing an industrial belt line. Other extensions to be built in the future by and at the expense of the Pennsylvania Lines are required by its agreement with the other 'two lines and will be subject to joint use by the latter at their option to an extent equal to half the values placed on their respective terminals in Detroit.

Engineer and Contractors— B. V. Sommerville is chief engineer of the Pennsylvania-Detroit R.R. (Pesnnsylvania Lines), Grading: on the new line from Carleton is-being done by Iliff Brothers, London Ohio, and the Ferguson & Edmund Son Co. Pittsburgh The former firm will also complete the concrete arch bridge and the steel bridges will be built by the'American Bridge Co.



Close up of the station area

Large Map
map
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2538
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 2:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What, no Hamtramck on the map of 1922? What are we chopped liver over here?
jjaba
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 370
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Posted From: 69.246.13.131
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Part Dux

From Railway Age Vol.72 No.25 Page 1717, 1718
June 24, 1922

IT is NOT OFTEN in these days that a railroad secures entrance into-a great city where it has had NO previous connections, yet a project of this kind is now being carried out by the Pennsylvania System with respect to the city of Detroit. Construction work completed or authorized, together with arrangements for using the facilities of other roads will afford the Pennsylvania convenient access to passenger and freight terminals in the heart of that city with switching connections to a large portion of the principal industries The plans for the Pennsylvania's entrance to Detroit and preliminary negotiations were undertaken several years ago, but the project remained dormant during the period of government control and the depression which followed its close. Work has been resumed within the past few weeks following an announcement made recently by President Samuel Rea before the Detroit Board of Commerce in which he outlined the present status of the project and the plans for the immediate future.

Physically, the Detroit entrance comprises an extension of the Toledo division of the Northwestern region of the Pennsylvania from Toledo to Detroit, but the project is being conducted by a separate corporation, the Pennsylvania-Detroit Railroad. Of the total distance of-54 miles from the end of the Pennsylvania tracks in Toledo to the Fort Street station at Detroit, 20 miles will be new line, the rest of the distance will he covered on tracks of other roads.

The route of the Pennsylvania-Detroit Railroad begins at Toledo with the use of the Ann Arbor tracks from a junction with the Pennsylvania to a connection with the Pere Marquette at Alexis, a distance of 4.37 miles. The Ann Arbor will build a second track for this distance and reduce the grades to a maximum of 0.3 per cent* From Alexis,- the Pennsylvania has acquired trackage rights over the Pere Marquette's double-trade line for a distance of 25.33 miles to Carleton, From this point to a junction with the Wabash at River Rouge, the Pennsylvania, has purchased right of way and is now constructing a new single-track line, 20 miles long on which it will provide a second tract as soon as the traffic requires. The contract with the Pere Marquette provides that the latter road will have the privilege ot using the new line under the same terms as the Pennsylvania will use the Pere Marquette facilities between Alexis and Carleton. From River Rouge, the Pennsylvania has running rights . over the double-track line of the Wabash foe a mile to Delray,
The junction with the tracks of the Detroit Union Railroad Depot and Station Company, leased jointly by the Pere Marquette and the Wabash. The Pennsylvania has acquired joint running and industrial rights over this line for a distance of 3.22 miles to a connection with the tracks of the Fort Street Union Depot Company. Joint use of this property has also been acquired for the entrance to and joint use of the passenger terminal at the corner of Third and Fort Streets, within one-half mile of the Detroit City Hall.
The route above, described comprises the main entrance
of the Pennsylvania into the city. Traffic over this line will
be developed primarily through the operation-of local freight,
houses and a team yard, on a location, immediately adjacent.
to the Fort street passenger station. The Pennsylvania has
acquired all the property bounded by Congress, Lamed,
Third, and Eighth streets, as a site for inbound and outbound freight houses and team tracks. The inbound house will be placed along Congress street, with a width of 80 ft, and a length of 1,080 ft, while the outbound house will be constructed along Lamed street, with a width of 67 ft. and length 650 ft. The freight houses will be of a two level type with street vehicle space on the street level and tracks on the second floor for a convenient connection with the elevated viaduct entrance-to the station. The plans for the inbound freight house also provide for three storage floors above the track door. Four team tracks will-be laid between the two freight houses w the second floor level with a capacity of 90 cars and an inclined approach from Second avenue, across Third avenue. It is expected to build the outbound house this year and use it for both inbound and outbound freight until the traffic warrants the construction of the second building.

The proper handling of the freight business to be developed in Detroit will require facilities for the adequate classification of freight entering and leaving the city. For this purpose, the Pennsylvania has purchased a 300 acre tract just south of the connection with the Wabash at River Rouge for the construction of a large classification yard to be known as the “Ecorse" yard. Plans have been prepared, for the development of this area with a yard having an ultimate capacity of 12,000 cars. The immediate construction on this area will he adequate for about 1,100 cars. It is also expected to provide space in this tract for a modern engine terminal but for the present only a temporary wooden house of about three stalls will be provided, it being the intention to run locomotives from Toledo to Detroit and return without the necessity for housing them at Detroit.

The increased utilization of the Fort Street station incident to the inclusion of the Pennsylvania, calls for more elaborate round house and coach yard facilities than are now available near the station. To take care of this deficiency the Pennsylvania has purchased 4.6 acres of land adjacent to the present Pere Marquette round house and coach yard, with-arrangements whereby the present facilities will be replaced by a new plant to be constructed by the Pere Marquette for the joint use of that road and the Pennsylvania.

In addition to provision for an entrance line and terminals
other developments have been made with in city for the
purpose of securing ready access to the more important industrial districts. To this end, the Pennsylvania has acquired joint use of all of the Pere Marquette and Wabash
tracks within the Detroit industrial terminal area east of-
the. River Rouge, including the Pere Marquette tracks from
Delray to a point 1.14 miles north of Michigan avenue, a
total distance of 4.J9 mile and also of the West Detroit
branch of the Pere Marquette from Oak to a junction with
the Grand Trunk at Junction avenue, A distance of 8.47
miles. Joint use has also been acquired of the Wabash
tracks from Delray to Junction avenue, a distance of 2.63 miles.

Perhaps the most comprehensive feature of the plan has been the development of a belt line, partly by the use of the Pere Marquette tracks and partly by the construction of a new line to the north and west, largely through underdeveloped industrial property on Livernois Avenue. A distance of 5 miles from the Junction with the Pere Marquette.

A number of new industries have already located on this line in the vicinity of the Grand River avenue crossing. The Pennsylvania has also constructed a 1 ½ mile branch from the Pere Marquette to the new plants of the Paige Detroit Motor Company, the Detroit Seamless Tube Company and other industries. The Pennsylvania Was also acquired the right of way for some other branches and has
agreed with the Wabash. and the Pere Marquette to construct
such extensions, and. improvements for the joint use of the
three railroads until expenditures for this purpose are equal
to one-half the valuation placed on all the Pere Marquette
and Wabash Terminal tracks on which the Pennsylvania
has acquired joint use.
Another local development is the provision for a supplementary team yard, on property adjacent to the Detroit Union Depot and Station Company tracks. The Pennsylvania has obtained joint use of all industrial connections on this line and also the yard of the Wabash at Ferdinand street, but supplementing this, purchase has been made of 10 acres along Fort street between Summit and McKinstry street, to be used for the construction of team tracks with an ultimate capacity of 250 cars. Immediate-construction on this site will provide for 95 cars. .
Development in Progress for Some Time
The Pennsylvania's entrance into Detroit was started several years ago and considerable progress has already been
made. In addition construction of the belt line, to Livemois avenue; referred to above, considerable work was done on the construction of the Carleton-River Rouge- line.
In 1918 construction was carried for a distance of 4 1/2 miles from the south end to a bridge over the Huron river which is the largest structure on the line. Some work was also done onthe construction of the bridge over this stream which, when completed will consist of. Four 40-ft. arches. The-masonry work was also completed a bridge under the hump of the Ecorse yard and Car a culvert under the tracks at the same point.
This work has now been resumed. A contract has been awarded to Illif. Brothers of London, Ohio, for the completion of the grading from the- south end of the line to the Huron River bridge, about 15,000 cu. yd. and for the completion of the Bridge. A second contract has been awarded to Ferguson & Edmundson of Pittsburgh, Pa., for the remaining portion of the grading to River Rouge and for the completion of the yard. This will involve a total of 350.000
cu. yds. of earth work. The American Bridge Company
has been awarded the contract for the steel bridge required
at the bump which will carry five tracks.
Following the end of government control", and pending the completion of the Carleton-River Rouge line, the Pennsylvania entered into a supplementary agreement with the Pete Marquette and the Wabash for the use of the tracks of these two roads for passenger service from Toledo to Detroit and this service is now being maintained. The present routing for the Pennsylvania trains is as outlined above under the permanent agreements except that instead of running over the cut-off line now-being constructed, the trains run Over the Pere Marquette to a junction with the Wabash at Romulus and thence over the latter road to Delray. This arrangement will terminate as soon as the new line is completed.
The various construction projects involved in the General plan for the Detroit Terminal of the Pennsylvania are being developed under the direction, of B. V. Somerville, chief engineer of the. Pennsylvania-Detroit Railroad, Detroit, Mich.



Please forgive the formatting,, its from an OCR and tis very late right now.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 237
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Posted From: 63.41.40.230
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice find bro! There's a bit of background of the politics getting the PRR into Detroit, in John C. Lodge's memoirs. In short, on the first schmoozing trips, they were politely brushed off by a Pennsy VP who couldn't see running track into this backwater. After a while, they found some family connections with the new railroad president, and it was a done deal. That article makes it sound like they were enthusiastic, and just couldn't get into Detroit fast enough.
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Hamtramck_steve
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Post Number: 2407
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.41.216.17
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 8:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba, nice catch on the lack of Hamtramck in that map.

Two possible reasons:

1. Henry Ford had something to do with that map, and wanted anything connected to the Dodge Brothers left off.

2. Since Hamtramck never had any type of railroad station, there was no need to show the city.
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 373
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Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There was another map with the second article and that didn't show either Hamtramck or Highland Park. I didnt post that because it was redundant of the first maps. It did however show the Detroit Terminal Line as the Ford Motor Co. Line. Was the DT originally built by old Henry? I guess I better post that because it poses more questions.
This the map for the second article
Map 2
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Douglasm
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Post Number: 394
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Posted From: 66.189.178.54
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not that I remember, but my memory isn't gospel. The DT was built between 1904 and 1911, and serviced the Rouge complex, which is probably where the "Ford Railroad" moniker came from. It was jointly owned by the NYC (Michigan Central) and Grand Trunk Western, and folded into Conrail.
I remember the roundhouse with its Baldwin diesel switchers at 7 Mile and Mound. It housed both Detroit Edison 0-6-0 202 (I think owned by the Michigan Railroad Club) and GTW 4-8-4 6323 which is now at the Illinois Railroad Museum. Remember the day the roundhouse roof caved in, and the 6323 was hauled outside. Anyone got a picture of that?
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Psip
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Post Number: 374
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Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the round house was at Mound and Davidson, I remember waiting on Mound at the crossing, I wish I had some pictures of the round house and the switch tower that was in the middle of the intersection.
I went on a tour of the round house when I was a cub scout. That must have been in the early '60s. I did take some photos, but who knows where they are now?
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 239
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Posted From: 63.41.40.217
Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 12:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Davison and Mound for the roundhouse. The tower was an old crossing signal tower that went out of use when they got automated if I remember correctly. I haven't seen any old photos from your Cub Scout days, but will post the photo of you in your uniform if I find it. :-)

I remember Psip and I driving over in his purple AMC Gremlin to look at the GTW Norhern that they parked on the track next to the roundhouse after the roof collapse.

A couple of other photos that I found of the Brush Street Station. The first looking west down Atwater, showing the back of the station.

Atwater and Brush St Station

This one is a unique aerial view showing the track arrangement from the riverside.

GTW station tracks aerial
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 2549
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 2:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wonderful photographs.

Glad we cleared up the Cub Scout tour with Davison.

Davison, Michigan (East of Flint) in Genesee County is the home of Michael Moore BTW.
No extra charge for the trivia.

jjaba
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Psip
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Post Number: 375
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Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 3:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Might this be the 0-6-0 you were thinking about?
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ misc-d/dt-s11afm.jpg
here a switcher
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ misc-d/dt103ads.jpg
an NW-2
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ misc-d/dt105ads.jpg
I think this is a Baldwin diesel
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ misc-d/dtrr102ads.jpg
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The_rock
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Username: The_rock

Post Number: 882
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.42.251.225
Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 9:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HWrecker--That street shot photo of the Brush street station really jogs the old memory. Many thanks, but all your historical digging into these old photographs must really be cutting into your French horn practicing.
That wasn't you doing the French horn solo in the 4th movement of the Mendelssohn #4 Fri morning at the DSO concert was it? Awesome concert!
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Douglasm
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Post Number: 395
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Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Psip....
....both the 2nd and 4h shots were of Baldwins. Rare birds, those. Kinda like finding the Lima diesel switchers on a photo trip to take pictures of 0-6-0's at Nicholson Dry Dock one day. And everyone's right. It was Davidson and Mound for the DT roundhouse.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 241
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Posted From: 63.41.8.220
Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rock, that guy you heard was probably someone who I've studied with. My orchestra, named after a local body of water, is currnently hard aground.

Still searching for more photos, just need ideas of what to look for. A few have been found searching for local streets, or nearby buildings.
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Broken_main
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Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 293
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 198.109.44.2
Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmmm....named after a local body of water...
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2011
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Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 8:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only one of Hornwrecker's pictures I could find in my sources is the the interurban pictured in his post #224, on Woodward just north of Six Mile Road, which was taken in 1915. The interurban is heading south towards downtown, on the west side of Woodward.

The first picture in post #228 looks very much like other shots of Woodward between Seven and Ten Mile Rds, although the interurban network stretched as far north as Bay City, and west past Kalamazoo, so it could be anywhere.

The car #7076 in the second picture in the same post was built in 1912, and the last interurban ran in 1934, so that doesn't help much. I couldn't find timetable information for train #208 but the sign in the window says "Limited" so maybe it was a special run for the men in the photo. Could they be musicians with their instrument cases, baording to travel to or from a performance?
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Psip
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Post Number: 379
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Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a photo of the vacant land where the once proud Union Depot once stood. c1981
Air-union

At the top of the photp you can see the Bob Lo boats and the orignal curley cue for the Cobo Roof parking.
Notice:
Joe Louis, River Apts, Wayne County Community College were still a distant dream.
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Burnsie
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Post Number: 332
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Posted From: 35.9.3.91
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 12:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Psip-- That pic was taken 1978 or earlier-- The Joe opened late in 1979.
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Psip
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Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 12:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your right Burnsie.. sorry about my mistake. Thats what I get for believing what was written on it :-)
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Psip
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Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The above photo could be from right after the Union Depot was demolished.
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Hornwrecker
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Post Number: 335
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Posted From: 63.41.8.31
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 10:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a photo of the Detroit-Union Produce Terminal which I'm guessing was somewhere down on Fort Street.

Detroit Union Produce Terminal

If anyone can identify the large factory in the background, which I'm assuming is an auto plant, it would help. I can't recognize it from an aerial view.
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Mikem
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Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 10:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're looking west/northwest. The Fisher Fleetwood plant is in the background and a Detroit City Gas plant is in the foreground, with Green Street running between the gas holder and the produce terminal.
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Hornwrecker
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Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Mikem, it's nice to have someone who's familiar with these views, albeit much later than this photo. Southwestern High would be just out of the picture on the right side, if I'm now properly oriented.

I'll see if I can get a good closeup of the Fleetwood Plant for the OCF thread. I found this photo in a LOC archive, dealing with landscape architecture, or something like that.
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Busterwmu
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Posted From: 24.247.221.194
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 9:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The two warehouse buildings of the produce terminal along Fort street are still there and still in use. In the old days, whole trains worth of up to 100 refrigerator cars would be delivered to the yard behind the Terminal as shown with fruits and veggies from around the continent. That train yard was named the "garden yard" for that very reason. Today, much of the produce is brought in by semi truck, though there are still a few rail sidings and CSX drops off up to a half dozen refirerator cars a day at the terminal. The Fleetwood site is now a container terminal, and the Garden Yard is mostly used for car storage and flatcars for the containers. The tracks in the middle forground of the photo go to Union depot to the right, and delray to the left.
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Psip
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Post Number: 411
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Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Busterwmu, Here is a new google pix of the area.
Produce
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Lowell
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Posted From: 66.167.210.171
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Produce Terminal

Produce Terminal
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Jjaba
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wonderful Art Deco Produce Terminal on Fort Street.
jjaba
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Psip
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Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 4:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I found a unique view of the Union Terminal looking east from above. WSU Archive
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Hornwrecker
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Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.40.192
Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 11:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice find. I'm trying to figure out how I missed that beauty of a shot.

Shows that you really need more than one set of Mark I eyeballs on the job, and different approaches for using searches.
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 428
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 1:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fort Street before the Union was built.
Fort Street
WSU Archive
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 447
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.40.68
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The GTW Avery Ave. Freight Station

GTW Avery Freight

... and a kind of crappy shot of the building a bit closer.

GTW Avery Freight Station
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Sven1977
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Username: Sven1977

Post Number: 138
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 209.220.229.254
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A few Sandborn Maps of train sites.

The Pullman Palace Car Co. 1897



The Beaufait station 1897.



Model railroaders, build this yard for a project. It was at Dix and Southern.

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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 450
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.189
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 11:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cool find Sven. I think the cross street on the Pullman Palace Car is St. Aubin. Any idea what that box on Jefferson is on the Beaufait Station map? Any sign of the Milwaukee Jct or Detroit Terminal roundhouse and yards yet, he asked hopefully?

Now I finally have motivation to learn how to hand-lay track in N scale, the Livernois Engine Facilities. Damn, that's a lot of trackwork.
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Sven1977
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Username: Sven1977

Post Number: 140
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 209.220.229.254
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a N-scaler myself, I try to avoid any switches. N-scale is great for building mountains
and even better for getting exercise for running around putting cars back on the track. The two images are of the same Milwaukee Junction roundhouse 1910 and 1915. The "box" above on Jefferson reads: "Wooden Viaduct - 18' above tracks." A viaduct for water? Kind of strange.


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Douglasm
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Username: Douglasm

Post Number: 414
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.189.188.28
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 11:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Somehow that doesn't seem correct to me. That places the GTW engine terminal on the northeast corner of the GTW/NYC (MC) crossover. I always thought the roundhouse was where the diesel shop was, on the southeast side, across the GTW from the station.
As I look at the map, the line across Woodward towards West Detroit yard is on the left, correct?
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2159
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 12:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The map needs to be rotated:

rh
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 466
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.203.223.125
Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's a before and after of Gratiot and Dequindre when they put in "The Cut". This was before widening Gratiot; note the crossing signal tower and the pedestrian crossing gates.

From around 1920(?)

Gratiot & Dequindre 1920

The Cut during final construction from another angle

Dequindre Cut construction
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 523
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 3:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

heading back to the Union Depot area, here is the elevated track at the Produce Terminal.
Elevated

And a mighty Wabash leaving the roundhouse.
Wabash
WSU
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 564
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 3:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have just unearthed a photo of the ORIGINAL station located at THIRD and Fort. This was the first location for Michigan Central and was built in 1883. It was demolished when the Union Depot was builtat Second and Fort.
Original MC Station
Sign
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 11:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Psip once uttered the following:
"I have just unearthed a photo of the ORIGINAL station located at THIRD and Fort. This was the first location for Michigan Central and was built in 1883. It was demolished when the Union Depot was builtat Second and Fort."



Tsk, Tsk, Tsk...
Your revision of history won't cut it.

The first MC terminal was at 3rd and Jefferson, closer to the river. It burned down in December, 1912 while the "new" MCT was still under construction.

The old church between 2nd and 3rd Street (where Henry Ford was married, BTW) wouldn't tolerate all that through-traffic to 2nd Street to fit into your faulty scenario...

The RXR tracks stopped short of Third Street.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2181
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 11:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hold the phone...this thread is going in circles. Quote from Bob Cosgrove back on the first page:

quote:

The first 1837 station (then the State of Michigan owned Central of Michigan) was on the Michigan Avenue side of Kennedy Square.

This was replaced by another station in the 1840's or 1850's at the foot of 3rd Street in the middle of the block next to the river. This portion of 3rd still exists immediately west of Joe Louis Arena and bewteen the arena and the Riverfront Apartments - it now runs only from West Jefferson to the River.

The c.1890 Michigan Central Station (not Depot) was almost on the same site, but on the southwest corner of 3rd and West Jefferson. It was replaced c.1913 when it burned by the present Michigan Central Depot (not Station).

The c.1890 structure was not destroyed by the fire and remained in use as the MC freight station until removed in the late 1960's or early 1970's for redevelopment of the area - long before Joe Louis Arena or the Riverfront Apartments.



I have two pictures from the mid-1860's of the station where the old city hall used to be. I'll scan them later.
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 566
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 12:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

:-) I didn’t say it was the Central of Michigan Station.
But I will take your observation as noted. This was indeed the second terminal point for the same trackage.
(sheez what do we have here a bunch of attorneys? :-) )
I looked at all of the above posts and didn't see this building or any discussion of it. I remembered seeing it somewhere, but was confused by the Union Depot since they are so similar.
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 567
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 12:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I also found a picture of the Michigan Central Office that was taken from the letterhead.
Mich Cent Office

I hope this clears things up.
BTW the caption on the photo says,
"The engraving from a contemporary letterhead shows the Michigan Central Station at the foot of Third Street a century ago. THe steamboat Mayflower, at the left, was launched in 1849 and wrecked in 1854
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2182
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 1:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)