  Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
MC Downtown Terminal | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 570 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
Thanks for finding that Livernoisyard. I knew I saw it somewhere but could not remember where. Then I found it in a book. I love that iron work on the top of the clock tower. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Notice that the chimney at the MC Terminal is visible in at least four photos, including one of the Union Station. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 531 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.2.148.130 |
 The Michigan Central Choir singing carols in the depot. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 562 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 12.64.12.129 |
  | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 443 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28 |
bump | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 611 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.2.148.197 |
 WSU GTW switcher 7800, 600 h.p. SC, built 1938, probably in Milwaukee Jct roundhouse. 7800 and 7801 were the last of this type (SC) built by Electro-Motive Corp.. Renumbered to 78 in 1950, scrapped in 1962. The more you know... | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 620 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.19.17.39 |
Awhile back, someone wanted to know where the roundhouse and main yards were for the Detroit Terminal Railroad. Here are a couple of aerial photos from 1961, giving an overview of the whole mile long yard, and the roundhouse at Davison and Mound.   Somewhere I've got an old embroidered patch from the DTRR that I'll have to scan. | ||
Aarne_frobom Member Username: Aarne_frobom Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 162.108.2.221 |
Very nice to see an aerial of this installation, now replaced by a prison. In the 1970's I made several trips to the ruined southernmost portion of this roundhouse, because it was home to the last Grand Trunk Western steam locomotive in Detroit, No. 6323. After its last use (for a Pontiac commercial) in 1962, the locomotive was sold to an individual named Fred Crew, who was never able to do anything with it. It made a fascinating picture of dereliction sitting in the roofless portion of the roundhouse, which may have had a fire. Around 1980 it was sold to a collector of GTW equipment, the late Bob Johnson of Chicago, who moved it to the Illinois Railway Museum west of Chicago where it remains partially restored. The IRM also received the last DSR Peter Witt trolley car in Michigan when it was deaccessioned by the Henry Ford a few years ago. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 621 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 216.203.223.110 |
Welcome to the forum Aarne, and thanks for the number of that loco. My brother and I spent some time looking at it when they removed the side rods and parked it outside the roundhouse prior to moving. Another one of those "I wish I had a camera" moments. Looking in my GTW book, 6323 was a U-3b class Northern (4-8-4) made by Alco in 1942 | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2225 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/23585/28087.html | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 719 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
The DTRR after the fire, a 1981 photomap from WSU  | ||
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox Post Number: 809 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 65.196.220.198 |
Grand Trunk Western 6323 (4-8-4) | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 460 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28 |
Aarne.... .....you weren't the only one to go visit the 6323 in the roundhouse. Detroit Edison 0-6-0 #202 (memory check?) was also stored in the roundhouse. I believe it was owned by the Michigan Railroad Club and was last at The Toledo, Lake Erie and Western Railway Museum in Waterville, Ohio on static display. | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 806 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
Here is a very nice view of the Union Depot yard  and the Michigan Central on the waterfront  The entire complex  (Message edited by Psip on January 08, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 62 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Actually, the entire FSUD complex extended to 18 1/2 Street. Union Belt Minutes There was an older roundhouse near 18th Street, which was replaced by the larger engine house at 21st Street which belonged to the Union Belt terminal railroad, just east of the Ambassador Bridge. Much of this was the older Wabash Boat Yard (now Norfolk Southern), which started at the foot of 12th Street. Wabash Detroit Freight Terminal - 12th St. Boat Yard Car Ferry Wabash Boat Docks Detroit Terminal Locations | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 462 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28 |
Hornwrecker.... ....was the GTW 78 (or 79) scrapped that early? I know it was a l o n g time ago, but it seems I remember it being parked on a siding east of Milwaukee Jct. as late as '65 or '66. | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 814 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
This purports to be a 1891 Map.  eBay | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 816 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
From the same map, it apears the GTGW had a ferry service on the east side.  | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 64 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
If you need help in Michigan RR history, go here: history If you want to keep informed of RR activities in Lower MI: LP For chronological RR events: Time Line | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 689 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.2.148.43 |
Douglasm, according to the book "Evening Before the Diesel" by Charles R. Foss, #78 was scrapped in 1962, and #79 was scrapped in 1958. So far this book has been accurate from what I've seen. Since these were 600 h.p. switchers, they were the first to go; the scrap date may be when they were taken off of the books, so they could have sat rusting around for awhile. Who knows. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 725 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.137 |
Here are a couple of photos from the aforementioned book, of the Milwaukee Jct roundhouse. The first one is taken from the coaling tower of U4b # 6405 topping off its tanks, SW9 #7016, and a pair of GP9s.  C.R. Foss The second shows Mike #3734 (later #4070) nose-dived into the pit, taken June 9, 1955.  C.T. Stoner collection | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 466 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28 |
Fellow I know once put a diesel either in the pit or through the back wall of the Pontiac roundhouse many moons ago..... That's 4070? Anyone got a picture of her stored by the Durand freight house in the '60's? | ||
Huggybear Member Username: Huggybear Post Number: 130 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.79.96.11 |
Was the Union Depot Yard where they filmed Detroit Heat (n/k/a Detroit 9000)? Or was it the Michigan Central setup along the water? They had a shootout in one of the two. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 728 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.19.25.20 |
I think someone mentioned it early on in page one of this thread. IIRC it was shot in the Fort St Union Station. Maybe it was some other thread, it's getting difficult to keep track of the long ass threads. | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 752 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.227.85.204 |
detroit 9000 was indeed shot in the union station and surrounding rail yards/approaches shortly before it's demolition. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 734 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.19.19.40 |
This is a photo of rail car #15805 waiting a Brush Street Station in August of 1946 with baggage car and two heavy weight coaches. Unit was coverted to diesel-electric from gas-electric in 1941. (Note the Guardian Bldg in the background.)  H. K. Vollrath collection | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 754 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.2.148.126 |
Pere Marquette E7 brings Train 4 into Fort Street, July 1947.  C&O HS | ||
Bob_cosgrove Member Username: Bob_cosgrove Post Number: 341 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 69.220.58.90 |
The January 17th photo posted by Hornwrecker of Grand Trunk Western 2-8-2 Mikado type steam locomotive with its nose in the Milwaukee Junction Roundhouse pit bears additional comment. The 4070 survives. The last I knew it was in the old roundhouse in Cleveland on the Cuyahoga River after pulling the Cuyahoga Valley excursion trains for many years. I'm under the impression there's an restoration project going on with it, can someone give us up-to-date information about the 4070? Bob Cosgrove Glancy Trains Curator Detroit Historical Museum | ||
Aarne_frobom Member Username: Aarne_frobom Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 162.108.2.221 |
GTW 4070, one of the last steam locomotives to work in Michigan, was used for many years between Cleveland and Akron on a tourist-hauling train through the scenic Cuyahoga Valley. I believe the owner is the Midwest Rail Historical Foundation, which is attempting to raise money to make repairs to the locomotive. It was worn out in many years of excursion service on top of its last years with the GTW. I'm told it needs repairs to just about everything: boiler, throttle, running gear, cylinders, et c. Work may be going on in a small way. The Midwest group occupies a remnant of the B&O roundhouse in Cleveland (near the neighborhood where "The Deer Hunter" was photographed). This structure collapsed when the rest of the roundhouse was sold and demolished. I don't know if the group owns the property. Along with the famous photo of the engine with its nose in the pit, there is a photo essay of this engine working a gravel train on the old GTW branch in the Thumb, one of the last steam-powered freight operations in the Lower Peninsula. | ||
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox Post Number: 832 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.184.29.148 |
See Here and Here Grand Trunk Western 4070 at Midwest Railway Preservation Society. (Message edited by toolbox on February 03, 2006) | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 481 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28 |
Bob... ...you might want to check with the Grand Trunk Western Historical Society. They might know something. I know a couple of members...and post on a couple of railroad forums, so I'll ask around. Never saw the 4070 run, but when I was (much) younger, I used to ride GTW Train 21 to Durand from Royal Oak and look at her sitting forlorn next to the old Durand freighthouse. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 804 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.131 |
Fort Street Union Depot #2, one of only 13 NW5s built.  | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 1030 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
2 is now in in Florida http://www.frrm.org/roster.shtml Corporation.  CARGILL 61 EMD NW5. This diesel electric locomotive was one of only 17 NW5's and was the forerunner of the BL2 and GP series EMD locomotives. This one was used by Fort St. Union Depot in Detroit and later sold to Mississippi Export RR, then to Gardinier Phosphate Company. It was donated by Cargill | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 826 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.208 |
A Sanborn map of Michigan Central Depot from 1884 on Third and the Detroit River.  Michigan Central roundhouse 1884 between W Fort and Lafayette near 12th.  | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 845 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.40.158 |
A couple of Sanborn maps showing a few GTWRR stations that were pictured or mentioned earlier in the thread. First is the Highland Park station on Davison from around 1920.  Next is a small station between the tracks on Woodward, near Milwaukee and Baltimore.  Finally, the GT station somewhere on the Westside from 1884. Lover's Lane?  Can someone give me a clue as to where this was, or if anyone has heard of it before? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 144 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
This is a snap - a no-brainer, actually! That must be a proposed location for a station across the street from the busiest interlocking tower in Michigan - West Detroit - at the junction of the Detroit Line south to Toledo and the Michigan Line. Obviously, you didn't know that Junction Street was originally called "Lovers' Lane." Later, it became Grand Truck Junction Street - afterwards just Junction. The street across the tracks later became Leavitt - now Federal Street by the Leavitt Lumber yard before it became the Federal Motor Truck Company - (108 or 112 Leavitt?) Lovers' Lane Junction Pay attention to the evidence of the former track in the fuzzy upper-left portion of the Google Earth image. That's the track from the predecessor of the Pere Marquette railroad that used to run down Hammond Street to Oak station near Fullerton and points beyond. The tracks from Roughmere and the new CP-LOU switch off of the Michigan Line by Wyoming Street eliminated the need for this track running through a (now rundown) residential neighborhood. If you look hard enough, you might be able to see from Federal Street the West Detroit railroad sign post along the tracks, assuming that it still remains. Federal Street obviously crossed Junction to the east and eventually intersected with Michigan Avenue before the Cadillac Plant later gobbled it up. Does anyone have any evidence where Leavitt or Federal extended through the east off Junction? (Message edited by livernoisyard on February 23, 2006) | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 847 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.97 |
Sometimes I lob a pitch right down the middle of the plate to see if anyone is paying attention. Interesting about the Lovers' Lane name change (even stranger seeing it in print), and seeing the reduction in trackage of the now photo. A few more roundhouse maps coming soon. | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2417 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
Looking toward the Fisher Building:  | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 155 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Why should anyone be surprised at the reduction in railroad mileage? That figure - 9,059 road miles in MI - peaked around Dec. 1909 and has been in steady decline for about 100 years. [3,829 road miles in 1995.] Maybe that shows how little attention people are really paying. Check the Timeline. Hint: How many coach yards are probably left in Michigan or elsewhere? (Message edited by livernoisyard on February 23, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 158 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Mikem: There's an Ecorse Junction sign post north of Liebold and Pleasant (near old Victoria?) in River Rouge, if my memory holds. But don't risk a $110 trespassing fine from the Norfolk Southern or encountering any hobos, though. more Ecorse Jct. "To say that this is a shabby, unattractive neighborhood is almost being kind." Conrail 5516 at NS Ecorse Junction in scenic Detroit, Michigan OTOH, you might luck out and visit with a friendly engineer/conductor crew parked there, waiting for the traffic to clear. (Message edited by livernoisyard on February 23, 2006) | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 865 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.249 |
The Detroit, Grand Haven & Milwaukee "roundhouse" just west of the Detroit Dry Dock Co (Globe Bldg) on the river, from 1884.   I kind of like the idea of having a boiler shop in the backyard. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3187 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Livernoisyard, you are a whiz, a fukking whiz. Thank you for your spirited posts. jjaba. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 202 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Which one, the one I pulled a few minutes ago and reposted on OCF instead? | ||
Bate Member Username: Bate Post Number: 68 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 71.101.227.115 |
Psip, Thanks for the info on the whereabouts of the CARGILL 61 EMD NW5. I have seen it alive and well up the road from me in Parish, FL. I believe it to be in working order. Bate in Sarasota. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 872 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.247 |
Wabash RR roundhouse:  Lake Shore & Michigan Southern RR roundhouse:  | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3204 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Where the hell is Lance Parish, Fla.? , jjaba can't find it on his GPS. jjaba, Northwestsider. | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 1052 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
Jjaba, he started out on 3rd base, but moved to home plate while in the minors. | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Hornwrecker, Where did you find those maps?? I'm guessing they are quite old, at least the Wabash roundhouse one anyway, but I'd still like to know how to put my hands on similar ones.. Thanks.. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 913 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.245 |
Wabashrr1, welcome to the forum, and I take it you're a Wabasher. The maps are by the Sanborn Map & Publishing Co, NYC, who made fire insurance maps of many cities. The original books are in the the Main Detroit Public Library, Burton Historical Collection, as well as micro-films. Other research libraries have copies of the micro-fiche, and alledgedly, U of M has them online. If you're looking for other cities, search google for Sanborn+name of city, and there might be an online version, like for Boston or NYC. The Wabash one is from 1884, the first years that Detroit is covered. What's great about these maps are that they have most of the trackage drawn in accurately. Any requests for RR structures? | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 2 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Hornwrecker, Where do I begin!! Yes, I'm a Wabasher, Model RR that is.. My interest is spawned from the fact that my Grandfather was a fireman who's trains typically started at Fort Street Union Depot... The search for info of which led me to this forum.. Recently I discovered that I have in a box of old stuff my grandfathers time books (a couple of them anyway) which show what train, origin and destination, he worked for a given day.. Another online quest of mine is to find a photo that shows him with a train or on a train. With all the people running around rail yards and crossings with cameras, I figure there has to be something out there somewhere.. In the later years of his RR career, he was running the Wabash Cannonball from FSUD to Montpelier Ohio. Anyway, I've been researching to model a condensed version of that particular section of trains 1 and 4 (later called the Wabash Cannonball) to and from St. Louis, including at least a relief version of the FSUD and it's platforms. Fire insurance maps are what I figured these maps to be.. Honestly I wouldn't expect you to put yourself out here, Whatever you have, can, and are willing to share, I'll take and I'll thank you in advance. Particularly the trackage and right of way between the depot and delray tower (dearborn street).. I've taken several car trips along what I know the route was but some of it's either not passable, gone, or looks too dangerous to venture into.. Un-armed anyway.. I've written the Detroit public library about walk in access to the maps or copies but haven't heard back yet. U of M does have a website that supposedly will lead to the maps but it's open only to U of M students and staff (maybe alumni too).. WSU grad here and strangely enough, or not, what they have at the WSU library is tagged "library use only" whatever that means. Oh well. I'll get it somehow. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 916 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.40.152 |
Sven is the local expert on the Sanborn maps, but what I remember is that anyone can access them, but if you need special assistance and are not a resident there is a charge for services. This doesn't apply for the Sanborn maps IIRC. The volume you want is number 1, probably the 1921 version, but there is also vol 1 of the 1884 showing pre-FSUD trackage. I think copies from the micro-films are 25 cents each. Sven uses a digital camera for pictures from the huge original books, look at the Old Car Factory thread for some of his images. Be glad that you're a Basher and not a NYC-er, otherwise I wouldn't help, seeing as I'm a Pennsy modeler. I'll put it at the bottom of the to do list, and try to figure out a way to have it make sense without looking like spaghetti. Here is GTW's Brush St Station from 1921 Sanborn. (I like the swithchback to a crossover for the milling operation across the street.)  The passenger sheds are in the lighter yellow. Freight station was across the street on Atwater. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3286 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Wabashrr1, welcome to the Forum. Your knowledge could be quite valuable. Please share it with us. As usual, Hornwrecker is at the top of his research game. Thanks. Wabashrr1, how about the words to "Wabash Cannonball" and give us the station stops of the line from Fort St. Station outbound South. jjaba. | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 3 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Ah, the old NYC vs Pennsylvania RR fight.. Well not really a fight.. Of course you could have the best of both worlds and go Penn Central (I wonder how they came up with That name.... ) but then that would pretty much rule out steam era and the paint schemes are pretty bland.. With both of those lines however, there is a proliferation of information out there.. Pennsy, as you probably know, had stock control in the Wabash RR but the Wabash still operated under it's own name. You've probably already seen it but if not, here's an interesting site on the Pennsylvania RR.. http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/R ail/Prr/Maps/ Jjaba, My knowlage of dates, times, and places is a little sketchy but I'll do what I can.. For the song, Here's the first verse.. "From the great Atlantic Ocean To the wide Pacific shore, From sunny California To ice-bound Labrador, She's mighty tall and handsome, She's known quite well by all, She's the 'boes' accomodation On the Wabash Cannonball" The rest can be found here.. http://ingeb.org/songs/wabashc a.html There are several versions of the song but that's one of them. As you may know, the train was named after song, rather than the other way around. Interestingly enough though, pre-1900 I believe, there was a train called the Wabash Cannonball or at least the name was used in some advertisements. For all you dead-heads out there, here's one supposedly done in a concert by the Gratful Dead.. http://www3.clearlight.com/~ac sa/introjs.htm?/~acsa/songfile /WABASH.HTM The Wabash Cannonball (trains 1 and 4) didn't actually run in most of the places listed in the song. Although there were accomidations out of Kansas City in joint operation with the Union Pacific to the west coast. The Wabash also ran through Ontario, after crossing the river via ferry, to Buffalo New York.. So if one wanted to ride a passenger train coast to coast (almost) pulled entirely by Wabash power, it could be done.. In my search for info for example, I've found photos of Wabash E units at Denver.. I've yet to find any evidence of a Wabash engine going any further west however. The Cannonball, originated at Fort Street at mile post 0 (the bumper posts at the station), headed out through delray, oakwood yard, through Romulus (where it crossed the C&O).. From there to Bellville and then to Milan where it crossed the (Wabash controlled) Ann Arbor.. Out of Milan to Adrian and to Montpelier Ohio (that's where grandpa got off the train for a return trip). It was at Montpelier that the line split and also went to Chicago. Continuing on to Fort Wayne, Indiana to Danville, Illinois through to Decatur Illinois (the home base of the railroad).. Out of Decatur on to St. Louis Union Station.. Now That's an impressive station. The building itself looks strangly similar to Fort Street station, which also sort of resembles Old Main at WSU. At least the tower does. That's the route description for the night.. Anyone interested in Michigan Railroads (fallen flags), here's a great site for photos.. My only complaint about it, as with most train photos, they don't show surroundings very much.. http://www.wabash-railroad.com / If your interest is in other railroads, http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ Any photos I would post would most likely come from these sites (I'd just give a link anyway) so here it all is in one shot. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 920 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.40.22 |
I started looking around at the trackage from FSUD, and it may be possible to post some maps without it getting too confusing, maybe. There's a lot of tracks. How big is your basement? Here's the Pere Marquette roundhouse from 1921, which is just above the Wabash yard and ferry slips.  I have a friendly animosity going with NYC fans, I even did the scenery for a friend's n scale NYC layout. I often thought of changing my PRR-EL 1960s layout to Penn Central day one, but I hate PC. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 260 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
A few Wabash pages: Wabash No. 600 arrives at Fort Street Union Depot Wabash Detroit Freight Terminal Wabash Delray Yard Wabash Ferdinand Yard Wabash Oakwood Yard Victoria Avenue, Michigan - Also known as Ecorse Junction Wabash (N&W, NS) Boat Dock | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 5 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Hornwrecker, The basement is roughly 22x32 but part of it is workshop / darkroom. While I don't have a major problem with running trains through that area, I don't want to completely dedicate the space to it although that's probably where the terminal itself will end up. Montpelier Ohio will be represented by a couple of off scene staging tracks.. So what I'm trying to get a handle on here is exactly how the tracks approached the terminal. Sunday, I went down to where the 12th street freight terminal use to be and it Looks like the (or a) building is still standing (Rosa Parks Blvd where it curves onto Jefferson). Drove along the alley way (not a very friendly looking place) behind the building heading back towards 15th St and noticed that a large concrete stucture (shown in the photo marked "ramp") that appears to be a ramp. I'm wondering if this is how the tracks gained elevation going To FSUD or if they gained elevation at all. Or is this even 12th street terminal.. I know it's in the right location and the front of the building resembles a 1969 photo I have in a book. Anyway, sorry about the links here but the photos are blurry enough without cutting them down to 50k. http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v285/jjmel/Model%20Trains/ wabash12thstterminal_marked.jp g A closer look... http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v285/jjmel/Model%20Trains/ wabash12thstterminal_close.jpg FSUD after the wrecking ball.. http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v285/jjmel/Model%20Trains/ fsud_gone.jpg | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 276 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
The FSUD trestle started ramping up near 15th Street very close to Jefferson, north and east of the coach yard. Use the 1949 CULMA aerial in order to plot its path. At around 11th Street, the moat toward the MCT is available to walk in. But that might be a bit too spooky for you. In case you're interested, there's a very short section of track remaining just west of 12th Street at the very south of the moat. You can view it from the bridge in case you choose not to walk in the moat. | ||
Aarne_frobom Member Username: Aarne_frobom Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 162.108.2.221 |
Very nice to see the Sanborn map of the Pere Marquette's riverfront enginehouse. This one has always been a favorite of mine. If you get the book giving the history of the Ambassador Bridge, you can see photos of the bridge piers being built right through the roof of this roundhouse. There is no trace of this building today, but one of my favorite bits of Detroit trivial knowledge is why one of the bridge piers has what seems to be a useless kink. I presume this was to avoid the tracks and pits inside the vanished roundhouse. This can be seen from Jefferson. I have seen some gorgeous photos taken of this turntable from the bridge sidewalk, in the collection of the Steam Railroading Institute at Owosso. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 941 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.251 |
I was doing an aerial photo of Cadillac Fleetwood for the OCF thread, and while I had the image open, decided to make one for the Detroit United Produce Terminal on Fort St and West End Ave. I don't think that this has been posted yet.  Still looking at the FSUD maps, and contemplating a layout design. Maybe using the river side as the aisle to remove a lot of the MC yards would be the way to go, still would have a steel trestle crossing around six tracks of a MC yard. Interesting stuff about the bridge piers and the roundhouse. Last month's issue of Trains had photo taken at W Grand Blvd of a C&O pass train under the bridge, in a two page photo. (I wonder why PS did that shadow thing with the text layers?) | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 6 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Is that the same produce terminal that still lines fort street today?? Or is this the one that shows on some maps coming out of Delray yard? Same place it looks like. I knew both were there and kept seening that yard on the photos but for some strange reason never made the connection. I've been downloading a lot of those CULMA photos (kind of slow on a dialup, 15Meg = 1 hour or so), looking at the changes from one to the next. I've often wondered why there aren't a lot of photos (from the likes of Emery Gulash, etc) of the Delray roundhouse for instance. Turns out, by 1956, it was gone. Nothing but a footprint shows on the photo. The roundhouse near the boat yard was on it's way out too.. I've been contemplating the same design and how to work it into part of my existing layout. Turns out, after seeing the CULMA for 1949, my turntable and roundhouse are in just the right spot to represent the Delray roundhouse. The yard itself, as it stands could represent a fair portion of the Delray yard. Although I'd have to rearrange some of it to come close to calling it a model. Once feature that I do intend to work in is the ramp and tressel going up to FSUD. Now I just have to figure out how to get it done without it looking silly. You had earlier posted a Sanborn of the Wabash roundhouse at delray, it looks like in later years, they completed the semi-circle. Of course I don't know when.. Here's one, while you're tracing tracks, Any chance of the Old Delray tower (pre-WWII) on one of them? I'm curious as to the foot print and where it actually stood (probably about the same as the current one).. I might be able to find a picture if I knew exactly where it was.. Then again, Maybe not. Ah well, the fun continues. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 943 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.251 |
Yup, it's the same terminal on Fort, light blue buildings. I think Lowell posted some photos of it on page one or two. I'll look for the Delray tower. I did find the Delray passenger station, but I didn't see a tower from around 1910. I can't remember the map number, so I'll have to search again... might be awhile. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 311 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Lots of luck on the Delray tower. The old wooden tower was replaced around WWII. So the 1949 CULMA aerial is of no use. The Produce Terminal probably only has two of its former tracks still in service today. Hardly a "yard" anymore. The Penn RR built the tressle to the FSUD. I got some accounts of its construction on another computer to which I won't have access for a while. Maybe a web search might locate it, assuming its source is still online. In case anybody needs to know, some of the Penn's power was too heavy for the tressle, necessitating an FSUD locomotive switchover at the Boat Yard (or Delray, if the roundhouse by the Board Yard was tied up). The usual FSUD terminal service only extended to 18th Street or so. | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 7 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I'm looking back at least 45 years here so the way it is now, isn't in my scope of interest. Here's a post Oct 1964 map of the produce yard. http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v285/jjmel/Model%20Trains/ oakwoodyardp5map.jpg Pennsylvania Red Arrow heading into the station in 1941, interestingly enough, passing the wooden Delray tower. The only photo of the tower I've ever seen. http://www.michiganrailroads.c om/RRHX/Pictures/Photos/001-00 5/Photo002C.htm ...so I have a general idea of what it looked like, I'm just trying to find out if it was in the same place as the current tower. No rush on the map Hornwrecker, this isn't critical to me. More of a fun curiosity. (Message edited by wabashrr1 on March 18, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 313 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
The layout of the Delray tracks - the diamonds to the east of the tower - fits with the 1941 photo. The power or telephone poles seem to be along the through street, immediately east of the tower. My take is that the wooden tower was either at the same location or right next to the current tower. Besides, how would the changeover occur - assuming the same interlockers were used as in 1945? This was probably the most congested bottleneck in Detroit, especially considering that there still was frequent passenger service. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 209 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 24.247.221.241 |
The new tower went in in 1945. The Model board inside is still lettered for New York Central, Pere Marquette, and Wabash. It replaced a wood framed tower which was late 1800s vintage, I believe. The old tower was practically on top of the road, right between the current interlocking tower and Dearborn Ave. The Wabash roundhouse was around the area of the I-75 bridge along the "Boat Yard Line", Union Belt from Delray to Fort Street. CSX still puts reefers in and out of the Detroit Produce Terminal most weekdays, and NS might do so too. For the current track layout, go to http://maps.google.com, hit "satellite" in the upper right, and look for the corner of Fort and West End in Detroit. You can see the two tracks still in use, and where the others went into the terminal just south of the lower of the two buildings. The yard over that way is still called the "garden yard," for the fruit and veggie trains. | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 8 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Thanks everyone for all the info.. Keep it coming.. As I said earlier, whatever you got, I'll take. Whatever I can give, I'll offer. I'm sure it was in a similar place (delray tower) I couldn't imagine them re-doing all of the rods for the interlock. I was just curious how much they changed it between the fire and building the new one, if anyone knew that is. Here's the 1949 CULMA of Delray.. http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v285/jjmel/Model%20Trains/ delray1949.jpg Here it is in 2002 (Terraserver-usa) http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v285/jjmel/Model%20Trains/ delray2002.jpg The roundhouse, which was gone by 1956, would be about where I-75 exits the top of the photo. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 945 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.162 |
I finally got FSUD into a postable form, from 1921 Sanborn map, in four parts.     The map shows the bridge over 6th being in two parts, with the track to the PM freight house having a single track bridge. Later aerials show it all as one wider bridge, so I might be misinterpreting the map as two. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 947 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.162 |
This is from the next map (west) showing the curve, and the restart of the viaduct over Congress.   The next maps over would be too confusing after it is compressed for posting due to the MC yard south of viaduct. It goes from 8th street to 10th over W Jefferson. No track changes The next map shows the three tracks narrow down to two, with a L.H. switch (on north track) after passing over the MC yards (10 tracks). The switch is about halfway between the streets. The iron viaduct is labeled as being 20 feet tall. The Detroit Graphite Company Paint Works located on 12th between W Jefferson and Fort St. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 949 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.152 |
The maps for the end of the viaduct from 12th St to the PM yard. Stone retaining wall in green. I have no idea what that building is, probably below the tracks marked "office", to the right is a small building marked "scale".       That brings it to the FSUD trackage in the PM roundhouse jpeg. (Message edited by Hornwrecker on March 19, 2006) | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 9 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
SWEET!!! Thank you! Your next assignment is to enjoy a cool one of whatever it is you like to drink. That green retaining wall is a ramp, or at least I think so that use to take the tracks up to the steel bridge going into FSUD. I drove along what is marked Jefferson a couple weeks ago to check it out and later posted this.. http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v285/jjmel/Model%20Trains/ wabash12thstterminal_close.jpg Comparing that photo to the sanborn maps, it Has to be the same structure and it's definately a ramp. Of course, Jefferson now, is no more than a crater filled alley along there but a lot of those curved tracks are still there. The backs of the buildings are all half missing and they've been used for a dumping ground for quite some time. At any rate, thank you once again.. It gives me a lot to work from. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 953 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.69 |
Someday that will all get bulldozed, and this thread and a few other sources will be the only thing left of that structure. I always liked that part of W Jefferson, and drove down it (slowly) when in the area, wondering about all of those sidings to abandoned buildings and empty lots, and the ramp to nowhere. I wonder how long that viaduct was, it sure was an impressive structure. We need to look for more photos of the viaduct from the steam era. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 327 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Detroit was a leader in building "cars" well before the motor vehicle. And many of Detroit's millionaires were involved. Old Car Factories from an earlier time... Michigan-Peninsular [West Jefferson was River Road back in the 1800s.] (Message edited by LivernoisYard on March 20, 2006) | ||
Bate Member Username: Bate Post Number: 71 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 4.247.134.109 |
Question about the MCS terminal area. I took a drive through while visiting recently and was wondering what all the roll up doors along Newark St and under the Vernor underpass were used for. This looks to be the area under the tracks above. Any input to add to my photos would be appreciated. | ||
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox Post Number: 853 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.184.29.148 |
Freight and baggage pick up and drop off. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 328 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Speaking of Newark (formerly Alexander) Street: What was the purpose for the stairway at the corner of Vernor? I climbed it a couple years ago, and there were plenty of junk trees and shrubs up there. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 122 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 129.9.163.234 |
Wabashrr1 and Hornwrecker--the building you indicate on post #949, the one blacked out is the former JL Hudson warehouse at 12th and Fort (1915 Fort st.) (Wabashrr1--it's also in your picture http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v285/jjmel/Model%20Trains/ wabash12thstterminal_marked.jp g, right where W.Jeff curves into 12th) The lower roofed addition to the right of that picture was added in 1959, and was where Hudsons assembled the floats for the T-day parade. The Packman worked at that building for 12-1/2 years, for the former owner, and for his Madison Hardware model train business, formerly located on the 4th floor of that venerable building. We had several RR wheel/axles stored outside (1:1-prototype scale!) that were purchased as spares for the "Fairlane" Railcar (which the Packman used to maintain). Anyhow.....we came to work one day and the axle/wheels were starting to disapear-rolled up the street into an abandoned wharehouse. several others were taken to a lot on w.Fort and cut up for scrap. That building has lots of RR lore. The new owner did a lot of work when he bought it, and now it sits there idle. Good memories. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 955 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.40.133 |
I was going to ask about Madison Hardware, and which building it was in, but I guess I forgot to re-paste it in when I edited the post. I take it you're talking about DK, did you work at the Grand River site too? There used to be yearly TCA tours of his collections. Wow! I'll look at the MC map to see if there are any clues about the dungeons. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 124 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 129.9.163.234 |
Hornwrecker--yes, and yes. | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 11 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
THAT'S Madison Hardware?? I never made the connection.. A couple friends and I use to go down there and pick through the HO scale stuff after it was moved in from New York after the fire. A little known secret of the place was that if you were going to browse the Lionels, there was something like a 6 month waiting period to get in as I guess they only took a few people at a time. Tell them you were going to relieve them of some of the smaller scale stuff and could get right in, and browse whatever you want. They also wouldn't sell the last one of anything as the mail order customers had first priority. So we had to pick out what we wanted and then they'd tell us if they would sell it to us. As I remember it, one would have to ring the bell and they would send the elevator down. I bought my one and only Lionel train from that place.. Tested it out on the layout that use to be up there. Talk about hidden treasures in the city.. We've probably crossed paths there 56packman. I always wanted to get into the caged off part and see the owners collection. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 957 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.173 |
Next, besides working at Madison Hardware and CarRail, you'll tell us you got to drive the Duesie J, Mr.56(Lucky bastard)packman. Alright, since questions that I'm also curious about keep cropping up... MC Depot, 1921 Ground level train buildings in light yellow Tunnels in purple Baggage area in light brown Passenger tunnel in bright yellow US Mail in light blue Railway Express in light green Retaining walls in bright green     | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 958 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.173 |
The 1949 aerial image of MC Depot  | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1494 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.213.205.130 |
Thanks for the posts Hornwrecker. Can somebody help me interperet the Sanborn two posts up? I guess it might start with an a better understanding of how the railroads used to work. I've been following the thread on and off the whole time, and I don't really understand how all of these terminals work together. It doesn't look like Vernor exists. Am I right? What were the dead end tracks just west of the train station office tower for? Is that the old post office just to the east? (The building still standing?) | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 211 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 24.247.221.241 |
The 17th St. Underpass is really Vernor I believe. As for the stub tracks at the west end, that was the NYC coach yard, where passenger trains were serviced. I believe that was also where the electric engines were serviced before they were discontinued running through the tunnel. Thanks for posting those great images from Sanborn Maps. They're a GREAT resource! | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 12 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
The stub ended tracks are a coach yard. Railroads would add or remove coach or chair cars to or from the train depending on the accomidations of the train. Sleepers might be added or removed at certain parts of a journey or would be part of the train the entire trip. I'm no Michigan Central expert but they all pretty much worked the same.. Certain trains always had a certain mix of cars, almost always head-ended by mail and baggage cars. US mail, as you may know was carried by trains well into the 1960s and is probably one of the only reasons passenger trains lasted that long. Railroads were required to keep them until I believe, 1970 or there about. By that time, many passenger trains were little more than express frieght carrying mail cars and a coach car. Mail was actually sorted while the train was enroute.. http://img.photobucket.com/alb ums/v285/jjmel/Model%20Trains/ rpo_inte.jpg Note: I don't remember where I found this photo. If somebody squaks about my posting it, I'll remove it. Also, express frieght would sometimes be hauled by passenger trains.. One of the companies noted for this was the Railway Express Agency. Kind of like Fedex. Put your package on the train at station A and it'll arrive at station B in a matter of hours rather than days. Train movements were dictated by time tables.. Here are a couple examples.. First, Wabash Employee Time Tables, the one of particular interest to me is the Montpelier division. http://www.cts.wustl.edu/~alle n/wab/ Accomidations, fees, destinations, etc were usually spelled out in public time tables, To keep Hornwrecker on board, here's a 1951 for the Pennsylvania, which also ran out of Fort Street.. http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ prr/prr-51pt.html I'm sure the rest provided similar service but in the day, you could board a Wabash train at FSUD, and end up anywhere in the country (and points in Canada) you wanted to go. Through connections at various terminals with other railroads. The Union Pacific for example, carried Pool cars for the Wabash that were painted in the UP Armour Yellow scheme but bore the Wabash name. Though meant for points west of Kansas City, in later years, these cars could be spotted on trains here in the Detroit area. I hope some of this has answered a question or two, if not, it was fun typing it anyway.... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 333 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
West Vernor east of Waterman had at least one different name in its distant past, such as Dix around 1900. The Sunday ball park for the 1901/1902 Detroit Tigers was located at (Wayne County sheriff's) Burns Park [a.k.a. West End Park] near Livernois & Dix in Springwells. Holy Redeemer, although still in the same location, was originally at Dix & Lovers' Lane. The stretch of Vernor by Central was named Ferndale some fifty or so years ago. The combo hardware/party store near Central still has "Ferndale" in its name. The Sanborn map shows Vernor as 17th Street by the viaduct. 17th Street is at the east end of the viaduct, and 18th Street is at the west (south) end. Considering that the MCT was built in 1912, horse-and-wagons comprised the primary mode of transportation. The stretch under the viaduct was probably considered an extension of 17th Street. Improved streets for motor vehicles back then were still somewhat of a rarity. So, it's conceivable that 17th was a major street, probably more so than "Vernor" or whatever it was called then. The old building east of the MCT on 14th Street was still standing the last time I was there last year. This topo map probably dates from around 1983 and still shows St. Vincent de Paul HS. When did the 14th Street and Porter Street bridges over the tracks come tumbling down? The Border Patrol squads sometimes park on the stub end of 14th, south of the tracks near the tunnel's entrance. (Message edited by livernoisyard on March 22, 2006) | ||
Aarne_frobom Member Username: Aarne_frobom Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 162.108.2.221 |
It's a hard book to find, but the workings of MC Depot and most other big, early-20th century train stations worldwide can be found in Passenger Terminals and Trains by Droege. This was reprinted by Kalmbach around 1970. It is still a great guide to the architectural challenge of handling large numbers of people. Whenever you see a modern airport or hotel or stadium that can't handle crowds, it is because the designers were ignorant of the rules discovered by the train-station architects of the 1910 period, as enumerated by Droege. MC Depot was one of the best examples. The big cavern under the trainsheds was for handling baggage and express, and as I recall it communicated with the platforms by elevators. This was a fascinating place to explore when the depot was in its last days. My passenger-car-restoring friends and I were admitted to the place by the last Amtrak carman to operate out of Detroit, in the mid-1980's. I believe there were locker rooms for trainmen, including Pullman porters and dining-car staff, down there, too. I thought the baggage rooms would make a great holding tank for miscreants in the proposal to re-use the station as a police station. To understand this physical plant, remember that until the mid-1940's most of the passenger travel now accomplished by the highways and airlines, and all the freight haulage accomplished by UPS was routed through this building by the New York Central and Railway Express, with all the mail going through the Post Office next door. The same thing was true of Union Station and Brush Street, although on smaller scales. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 961 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.244 |
Good explanations on the head-end cars and their operation. Sometimes there were mail/express only trains if there was a lot of mail/lcl cargo. Another commodity shipped on the front of passenger trains was milk. Locals stopped at most every station to pick up milk cans; hence the "milk run". In some areas special tank cars were constructed to haul the white stuff. In the second jpeg, on the farthest left track near the "41", is a small building over the track labeled "wreck train equipment", maybe a shed for the big hook? The little rectangles with the E in them on the map are probably elevators up to track level. | ||
Sven1977 Member Username: Sven1977 Post Number: 179 Registered: 04-2004 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
All tracks lead to Detroit.  Here's a switch tower somewhere near Jefferson south of downtown. I took this around six years ago.  | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 968 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.95 |
Delray Junction with passenger station from 1921    Aerial photo from 1949  | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 215 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 24.247.221.241 |
That old Switch tower sat at the Clark St. Crossing, and controlled RR Crossing gates at Clark and many crossings east and west of there (although W Grand Blvd had it's own cool little crossing guard tower). The Clark Tower may also have controlled some switches, etc, but FSUD had it's own tower (17th or 18th St.), and of course Delray was at the other end of the Union Belt. The track layout on the Sanborn Map of Delray fits with the original track layout on the Model Board when the new tower went up in 1945. The Freeway sure messed up that neighborhood and changed the face of the interlocking drastically. http://www.michiganrailroads.c om/RRHX/Stations/CountyStation s/WayneStations/DetroitTermina l/DelrayMITrackDiagrams.htm If you drive from Michigan Ave. down Vernor and under the RR bridge next to MC, on the left (loading docks side of the bridge), you can read a few faded signs which indicate a milk dropoff and pickup loading dock. Originally, I though it said Milwaukee, but upon closer inspection it does infact say Milk. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 972 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.4 |
Earlier Aarne mentioned how the old PM roundhouse was inter-nestled with the Ambassador Bridge approach. Here's the 1949 aerial photo of the area.  (I know that it was already C&O by this time, but the PM script looks better.) | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 219 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 24.247.221.241 |
At NYC's Livernois Yard, there were two huge Roundhouses. It's sad none of these exist any longer in the D, though there are other Roundhouses around the state that remain, and some which remain in rail service! | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 8 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
Here's a picture post card of Union Depot in Detroit. I don't know if it was located in the same place that Union Station was built. But, I'm sure there is someone on this chat that knows the exact location and I would be grateful to know where that location is. I would also like to know when it was built and when it was torn down. Thanks.  | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1516 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
Livedog2, I think if you start at the beginning of this thread (part 1) you'll find answers to all of those questions. Great Pic BTW | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 25 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
From: http://www.michiganrailroads.c om/RRHX/Stories/ThirdStreetBoo m.htm The Union Depot's interior was modernized in 1948, but on the outside the depot still looks much as it did when the first train pulled out January 21, 1893. Victorean architecture and gingerbread masonry make it a memorial to the golden age of railroading. The postcard you show, Fort Street is on the right and the station is at third street. The administration building of that branch of WCCC now occupies the space where the tower once stood. The station was/is across 3rd from Fort Street Presbyterian (sp?) church, which still stands today. The station's demise.. http://www.michiganrailroads.c om/RRHX/Stories/FSUD-TheFinalD ays.htm Looks like they've added some to that site since I last saw it. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 998 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.2.148.51 |
On a photo of the Cadillac #1 factory, Amsterdam and Cass, that I posted in the OCF thread, there was what appeared to be a small passenger station on Cass and the LS & MS/GTW tracks. Looking at the Sanborn map from 1910, there is a depot there labeled Union RR Station, whatever that is.  1910 Sanborn map, Cadillac #1 lower right, Cadillac warehouse upper right, Briscoe /Brush factory far left, passenger station in yellow.  This might have been a DUR to RR transfer station as there was a GTW station at Woodward, posted previously. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 387 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
It might be some facility of the Union Belt. Though more recent, here's some Union Belt info. Here's another link for the FSUD. I'm too busy to scan the thread to see if it's new or not. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 1032 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.2.148.246 |
 Bentley HL Bump, wreck on the Michigan Central | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1576 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.175.171 |
MCS Construction (WSU) And another (WSU) Is this steam or diesel? (WSU) Maybe somebody wants to locate this (or maybe I missed it and they already did (WSU) (Message edited by jsmyers on April 11, 2006) | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1577 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.175.171 |
Lets play what if: We know that Fort St Union ceased to be used after Amtrak took over passanger rail. The NYC lines were probably the most solvent (or at least most popular), so it made since to use the system that NYC had, including the MCS. But what if the trains were re-routed to the Fort Street station in the early 1970s? How difficult would it have been to send an Chicago to Detroit train on the MC line into FSU? (Didn't Amtrak also operate a Train that went through Toledo for a while too?) If that had happened, what would have happened to passenger rail in Detroit? Would having a close in downtown station help? Would the FSU still be standing and used? What would have happened to the MCS? Interesting questions IMO... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 409 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
My $0.02: The NYC's trains went to their 3rd Street station prior to its burning in 1913. That station was at grade; the FSUD wasn't. The trains coming through its moat at 11th Street and Jefferson would have back up to head west to near the Ambassador Bridge in order to effect its entry onto the ramp and trestle for the FSUD. So, the MC would have had to come through the tracks near Ecorse Junction in order to tie into the tracks the other railroads used. This meant the "Delray Delay" would be ever present with its combined freight and passenger congestion. Furthermore, the MCT would be bypassed due to its location, trackwise. Railroads in MI peaked in 1910 and except for some WWII revival, they were losing track mileage and yards, year after year. The questions are not that interesting, actually. Cars, trucks, and paved roads killed the railroads more than anything else. Notice the year that they peaked--1910--about the time that cars, trucks, and pavement came into the picture. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on April 12, 2006) | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1578 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.175.171 |
I think you misunderstood me. Of course having a different station in Detroit wasn't going to change the national result of subsidizing auto and airplane traffic. I'm wondering if Detroit might have been a bigger rail town in the 70s and 80s if FSU was used. Maybe commuter rail might have remained more viable. Maybe a train trip to the east would have been maintained. You also ignored making any wild speculation of what might have happened to the MCS if it were not used by Amtrak after 1971. I think you explaination of what a train would have to do to get from a NYC line to FSU assumes that the train has to pass MCS. Could a switch have been made in Dearborn or Delray to get the train onto the correct track for FSU? | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1579 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.175.171 |
I see that you edited your post to discuss the ecorse junction. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1580 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.175.171 |
Do you mean that all trains heading to FSU tended to experience delay (the Wabash for example) or that something about the interlock would cause a MC/NYC train to be delayed? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 410 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
I got sidetracked here and had to post it sooner than intended... Detroit is somewhat messed up in that its downtown trains had no access east of 3rd from the west and west of Brush from the eastern part. Chicago and Milwaukee had that type of problem too, necessitating a cab ride or a walk between depots. But rail traffic, especially passenger, for all three cities was already declining in the early 20th Century. All the interurbans died by 1934 or so here. That's why commuter rail will be a hard sell for Detroit with its low population density. They had that going to Pontiac from Brush in the 1980s and it bombed. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on April 12, 2006) | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1582 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.175.171 |
I think this is a pretty normal situation for major cities. Look at Paris. As far as I know, the only way to get through Paris on train is to go around (or take the RER or metro). The commuter rail system didn't bomb. It was dropped because it was politically unsustainable in this divided region. Commuter and Light rail systems are successful all over the country in places with similar population density to SE Michigan. Minneapolis for example, has a widly successful LRT corridor, and is starting to design a commuter rail system. The interurbans died because they were over extended and they largely duplicated the service of other systems (city street cars and intercity rail). The streetcars were demolished by neglect and subsidy to cars (and inefficient operation). You are also confusing the miles of track with passenger ridership. Track peaked in the teens, then the stupid, corrupt (land speculation driven), or redundant tracks were abandoned. Passenger levels didn't start falling till the depression and that was because people couldn't afford to travel much. After WWII, interstates and air travel were subsidized to the point that they killed most train travel. Without the subsidy trains would have of course given up some riders to new technology. But there isn't anything superior about tires or wings that would have arrived at the current situation without subsidy. Both freight and passenger train traffic is actually increasing again. And now it is competing against much more heavily subsidized competition. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 412 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Freight has increased in Chicago, for example, so that it cannot handle any more without worsening its own delay. It's much faster shipping by truck from southern MI to, say, Milwaukee, due to the backlog in Chicago. That's one reason why the DIFT is mired, at present. No real reason to ship to or from Detroit any longer, and shipping by truck is more dependable. But Chicago is still a major hub, whereas Detroit is stuck in a peninsula over 50 miles out of the way for major traffic except for what comes through Windsor. Detroit is now again what it was a hundred years ago, a terminal railroad, and far from being a hub. And its industry is leaving, and eventually there will be nothing remaining of consequence. Even the Canadian traffic will simply go through Detroit to other locales, not to or fro. I believe Detroit will be similar to the ghost town ruins that remained after their boom days were over. I'm sure that even the ghost towns had their supporters, dreaming that they would resurrect, but it didn't happen. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1584 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.236.175.171 |
Why are you here again? | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 57 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Jsmyers, the NYC streamliner you point to is a steam engine pulling the NYC Mercury (according to the caption). Here's another photo of the engine.. Commadore Vanderbuilt Mercury 1948 Note the troughs between the rails. The tenders had a scoop on them that would lower and fill the tender with water so the trains didn't have to stop to 'fill up'. Another -NYC 20th Century Limited 1941 Same locomotive in Detroit What I believe to be the NYC Empire State Express ca 1953 Empire State Express Several railroads had streamlined steamers as well as some streamlined articulated trains pulled by diesel power (before diesels really took over). Here are some more for your viewing pleasure. Pennsylvania RR T-1 4-4-4-4 aka Duplex I don't know what train it's pulling however.. Here's just the loco PRR Duplex Something with a little more tractive effort 6-4-4-6 S-1 Can't talk streamlined steamers without showing this one.. 90mph on some of the worse track ever not maintained (so I've read).. Milwaukee Road Hiawatha A color Rendering Hiawatha The rear of the train (Rendering) Observation For you western steam streamliner fans, Southern Pacific Daylight In colors once seen in Michigan. Any guess as to when? Daylight repainted Inerestingly, During W.W.II, these locos were painted black so as to be harder to spot from the air. Commonly known today as the 'war baby' scheme among espee buffs. War Baby Then my personal favorite, the Semi-streamlined Wabash P-1 4-6-4.. This particular locomotive was also used on to-fro Detroit runs. I have a photo of it on the Delray turntable. Wabash 4-6-4 Another... Sadly, being shown where it is in the photo means it's about to be scrapped (gone by 1956) Decatur Shops on the Rip track Enjoy the steam powered nostalgia trip. I'll have to daydream about your What If FSUD was still there and open question. | ||
The_rock Member Username: The_rock Post Number: 1110 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.42.251.225 |
Thank you for those splendid shots. You really covered the Art Deco scene, Wabash!! I have a nice (Bachmann) model of the Southern Pacific Daylight. Even smokes. On a some-what related note, I can't wait for July 22, 2007. The National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) will have its national convention in Detroit at the Marriott with awesome model rr displays set up at Cobo Hall. BE there!!! Better than the Auto Show or Opening Night at the Opera House!! | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 192 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 129.9.163.105 |
Great shots of the Drefuss Hudson. | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 58 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
You're going to have to remind us of that next year Rock. I saw the July 22 and thought it was This summer :D .. Cobo is a 20 minute drive for me so I'll definately be there for the displays. To continue with the 30's and 40's streamliner tours, here are some more including Diesel powered ones. Most of these are renderings. To find out more about them, right click, copy image location to get the website. IC Green Diamond Pennsylvania Broadway Limited Illinois Central - City of Miami Chicago and Northwestern - "The 400" Reading RR - don't know what the train was called St. Louis and San Fransisco - Firefly I had hoped to find a better photo of this one but right now it escapes me.. Lehigh Valley - John Wilkes Can't really talk about diesel powered streamliners without at least mentioning this one. Probably one of the most readily recognized American railroad paint shcemes in the world. Santa Fe - Super Chief Another for you Western railfans.. Union Pacific - City of Los Angeles Another train linked to a song.. Seaboard Air Line - Orange Blossom Special Burlingto n (CB&Q) Pioneer Zypher And of course, not a 1930s or 1940s streamliner but. Wabash Bluebird Bluebird again By the way, some of these photos came from sites that have some extensive info about the trains. Others are just postcard for sale sites (should be obvious in most cases). Don't pass up the chance to read a little about some of them. I'll let the thread go back to Detroit train terminals now.. Hope you enjoyed the detour. | ||
The_rock Member Username: The_rock Post Number: 1113 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.42.251.225 |
Great detour, wabash!! That black and white photo of the "Bluebird again" observation car reminded me that back in the early 50's, I dated a gal from Kinswood School( Cranbrook) whose father was a VP of GM, and was considered the man who brought the observation car into reality. He took us down to the railroad tracks behind the old Sears store in HP,(next to the Sealtest plant, actually) where two of those aluminum-skinned observation cars had been brought in by GM for publicity purposes, and that was my first time in this type of equipment. Quite spectacular even then.What a view of the Sear parking lot and surrounding area!! A great way to see the USA!. | ||
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox Post Number: 887 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.184.29.148 |
The repainted Daylight came through Detroit in 1976 as one of the Freedom Trains. | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 60 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Daughter of a GM VP? Back in those days that would have been quite a catch. Here's hoping that The_Rock's lifechoices have worked to the best for him. I know some of my memories are kind of greyish so let's add some color to the memories. Not sure but I believe this is that same Observation/dome car on the tail end of the Banner Blue. Even in color it looks faded. Wabash Obs/dome #1601 Wabash Obs/dome with some different colors More Here Built by the Budd Company, ca 1950 as were the other cars on the train. The E unit diesels are EMD (GM) products. Several other Wabash trains were given the same 'squeeze the paint tube' treatment and plans were in place to do it with all of them. After a few (Blue Bird, Banner Blue, City of Kansas City, City of St. Louis and a couple others), the cash strapped Wabash RR company decided not to proceed and make due with what they had. Although Detroit based trains were never given this treatment (last on the list and plans later scrapped), a lot of these cars did see Fort Street. Including even the Wabash/UP pool cars that were originally meant to provide service, under the Wabash flag, to points west the actual end of the Wabash system (San Francisco, Portland, etc).. Here's an example of one. Wabash / UP Pool car | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 1058 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.201 |
While searching for other stuff, I came upon these two photos at WSU/VMC from around 1910. They depict garbage shipment in Detroit using standardized containers from horse carts loaded onto flatcars for shipment. The flatcars are labeled "Detroit Reduction Company" and numbered #19 in the first photo. The trash seems to be just normal waste, and not animal as the name of the company suggests. The containers are double-stacked using a removable side frame on the car. Anyone see anything similar? It would be an interesting thing to model for a period layout.   | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 437 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Milwaukee was still using horse-powered wagons up to around 1950 for its trash (possibly coal cinders too) pickup, especially near the inner-city where the horse barns were located. The wagons were constructed similar to railroad hopper cars, but were wooden. On another matter, it's possible that the earliest railroads in Detroit around 1837 were horse powered also, at first. Early streetcars, too. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 1084 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.98 |
I found only one reference on the web for the name on the garbage flatcars from the same time: "...worked as a blacksmith at the Detroit Reduction Company in French Landing." French Landing was located near Belleville. http://www.michmarkers.com/Pages/L0998.htm I've seen Milwaukee Jct listed as a stop on some old GTW timetables. Here is the station from the 1910 Sanborn map, located at EGB and Orleans St.    | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 540 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
That station at Milwaukee Junction is probably near or where the GTW maintained an office until fairly recently. Is that the oil cloth at American Wood Grain Co. the same the dime stores sold? | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 1085 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.40.117 |
I found a little bit about American Wood Grain Co, from the website, The Detroiters, about the founder of the company. Apparently made fake wood -grain floors and wainscoting, and maybe branched into oil cloth as the map indicates. HOLLINGER, Thomas T.; born; Wayne Co., O., Mar. 6, 1855; son of Joseph and Amanda (Metzler) Hollinger; educated in public schools of Mansfield, O., married at Cleveland, O., 1881, Miss Helen Hawley. Began active career by learning trade of grainer, which he followed for thiry years in Ohio, Chicago and Detroit; invented process of wood-grain flooring in 1900 and in 1901 organized the American Wood-Grain Co., of which has since been president, the factory of the company in Detroit. Republican (independent) Member Royal Arcanum. Recreations: Boating, fishing. Office: Boul. and Orleans St. Residence: 256 Marston Court. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 547 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Because Henry Ford was the chief engineer at what later became Detroit Edison, another (dammed?) lake on the Huron River may have been named for him--Ford Lake (good fishing spot, BTW). OTOH, the original name for Wyandotte was Ford until the early 20th Century. Henry Ford also dammed the Rouge that created Lake Newburgh. Damn! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 550 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
BTW, did the National Can Co. at Milwaukee Jct. make toilets? It did say tin cans, though. Was that tag added to preclude any such questions as mine? | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.245.93.12 |
I'll ask some of you railroad buffs: I live near the Norfolk Southern line that runs southwest out of Detroit. Formally the Wabash, it goes through Belleville and heads through Milan to Adrian and into Indiana. I mostly see NS locomotives, but occasionally see Union Pacific, Canadian Pacific, Soo Line, Conrail and generic leased locos heading mixed freights. What's with all the different road names on one road? (I know that Conrail was merged into NS so that must explain that.) NS does all the local switching. It all makes for interesting train watching as you never know what rail companies you might see. | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2480 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
Yes, it's great to see UP and even an occaisional SF AC6000 roll through town - something I'm used to seeing out west. I've wondered that also; is it leased power or some sort of haulage rights? | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 107 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Leasing. Rather than purchase all new power railroads have been leasing it for years from other railroads and even some private companies. Probably also some sharing going on. I've seen a lot of what could be called foreign power up on the bridge crossing Outer Drive in Allen Park (Oakwood yard throat) including all you mentioned in addition to some of the green and orange BNSF and even some ATSF (Santa Fe) red and silver schemes. BTW, Out of Adrian, the NS goes to Montpelier Ohio. Or at least it used to. Did that change? Conrail was split up between CSX and NS. I forget who got what but both rail systems got a piece of the blue. (Message edited by wabashrr1 on May 05, 2006) | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2481 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
Makes sense, although I never noticed the foreign power until after the Conrail breakup. I know Chrysler has signed up with UP to manage its vehicle shipping, so I thought maybe it's an automotive version of a unit train. BTW, does anyone ever notice any new GM locomotives passing through town on their maiden voyage home from the factory in London? | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 1124 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.104 |
As well as leasing arrangements, there is a long standing agreement in equalizing equipment hours on run-throughs. What this means in English: when two railroads jointly run a train over both of their ROWs, sharing locomotives, the amount of hours that the equipment is running on each others track is kept account of, and the other RR loans the use of the equipment to the other to make up the time. (Clear as mud.) | ||
Wabashrr1 Member Username: Wabashrr1 Post Number: 108 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
That would probably be about the time I started seeing it too, around 1995ish (give or take). I don't know if they were new but the Freshest ones I've ever seen were some Canadian Pacifics heading over the oakwood bridge headed toward oakwood junction, where NS, er, Wabash meets up with DT&I? er CN, or is that CP?? Hell, I don't know anymore.. All I know is my favorite railroad was gone to merger land about the time I was born. All that remains are some of the tracks. At any rate, if not new, those CPs were definately freshly painted. | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2482 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
So, Hornwrecker, NS might run a load of autos from here as far west as KC or Omaha, partially on UP tracks, so in return, UP might back-haul the empties or some other load from west of the Mississippi back here, over NS rails? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 619 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Conrail -> 54% NS | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 1125 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.104 |
NS might run a load of autos from here as far west as KC or Omaha, partially on UP tracks, so in return, UP might back-haul the empties or some other load from west of the Mississippi back here, over NS rails? Yeah, something like that. The accountants keep track of something like "horsepower/hours", and at the end of the year, or whatever term, the other RR can use the other's motive power for how many hp/hrs owed. It was probably some bean counter figured out 50 years ago, or more, that bypassed some obscure tax loophole. Basically it is a credit for motive power that you can cash in on when you are short. Another interesting RR money thing is the trust/lease plates that are on, or used on equipment. I don't know if they still are. (The main reduction gears on US Navy ships are leased from GE or Westinghouse, and it is not unusual for WWII era units to still be in operation today. They are too expensive for even the US government to buy!) | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2483 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
OK, I searched the Trains.com forum and found two explanations in response to a forumer asking why he's seeing UP power in Baltimore. It's the run-throughs I ahd in mind.
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Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 1126 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.104 |
Mikem,I implied it was confusing, and it is at first glance. It is cool to see foreign road unit in MI. (I was playing Russian roulette with this thread to see if it would get bumped, and one question causes a flurry of postings. Back to the brickyards.) | ||
Bob_cosgrove Member Username: Bob_cosgrove Post Number: 345 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 207.74.110.15 |
The WSU April 11 photo posting by jsmyer asked "Is this steam or diesel?" referring to the locomotive pictured. It is steam. It's one of two New York Central K-Class 4-6-2 Pacifics streamlined in 1936 by famed designer Henry Dreyfuss for the Detroit-Cleveland "The Mercury." This was Dreyfuss first attempt at railroad streamlining and his hide-the-engine approach falls far short of his 1938 "20th Century Limited" 4-6-4 Hudson steamlining pictured later in this thread in which the engine is only partially shrouded using a form follows function approach. In all fairness to Dreyfuss, he was an outstanding stylist and except for the two locomotives his two "The Mercury" train sets were styled in excellent fashion right down to the dining ware china. But, his two Pacific locomotives compare poorly to the NYC Engineering Department's Karl Kantola's design of the Class J-1c 4-6-4 Hudson No.5344 in 1934 - the first streamlined steam locomotive in the U.S. While this and his later NYC Class L-2 4-8-2 Mohawk streamlined in the same "shovel-nose" style for the Rexall train used the hide-the-engine type styling, Kantola created one of the most pleasing streamlined designs, right up there with the semi-streamlined Southern Pacific Class GS-8 4-8-4 Northern Daylights. Bob Cosgrove | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 590 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28 |
Bob.... .....preference is for the streamlining style followed by the CN and GTW for their 6400 series Northerns..... As to leasing, I get a ton of foreign road units up here on the BNSF. In many cases after the equipment trusts expire on units on railroads (in many cases they don't actually "own" the units, they lease them for a length of time) the units are then sold to leasing agents like Helms (HATX), National Railroad Equipment (NREX), General Electric (LRLX) and others. Railroads then lease these units for the short term to cover short term traffic increases. In many cases the units are either not repainted or the roadname is painted over. If you see a foreign unit, look for a 4 letter reporting mark ending in "X". If it has one, it's being leased out by a third party. | ||
Bob_cosgrove Member Username: Bob_cosgrove Post Number: 347 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 207.74.110.242 |
Actually there appars to be a connection between the CN and GTW streamlined Northerns and Karl Kantola's 1934 Commodore Vanderbilt. Canadian National conducted Engineering studies c.1930 on streamlining and came up with the Bull Nose in their drawings. Kantola's original design had a Bull Nose. This was changed after the Case School of Applied Science wind tunnel testing by Norman Zapf as his senior engineering thesis. Another change is the long arc in the side panel above the drivers, which occured after Zapf. While Zapf may or may not have contribued these features, he certainly did not design the locomotive. Bob Cosgrove | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 591 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28 |
I don't know any of the history of the 6400's, but even in the Stratford (Ont.) dead line, it was one beautiful locomotive. Someone commented on the Milwaukee Junction depot. That was Grand Trunk's commuter stop for the New Center area. DSR busses used to meet the trains to take people to New Center. I used to ride the 75 cent "Shoppers Special" from Royal Oak on occasion. In on #56, off at either Milw. Jct. (GTW shop across the tracks. Loved it when Dick Jensen's 4-6-2 was stored there) or Brush Street (go look at the Huron or Lansdowne plying their trade) for a half hour or so, then back on a commuter train whose number I don't remember..... |
