  Adm70 Member Username: Adm70 Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2005 |
It seems that the MCS, mighty and beautiful, continues to sit in limbo. My idea: Light the building. Place up-lights at the base and treat it light it as a monument! | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2276 Registered: 07-2004 |
Have an F-16 fire a couple of missiles into it. That should bring it down and save on demolition costs.  | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 324 Registered: 06-2005 |
Way past time to make the owner do something with it! Dont seem like owners even give a shit. They should be forced to either renovate or implode it. I think there does come a time when a building is beyond saving and I think this one is gone! IMPLODE!! | ||
Cub Member Username: Cub Post Number: 46 Registered: 02-2007 |
I like that idea adm70. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 56 Registered: 06-2007 |
Probably cost more to reinforce it than i's worth. I sincerely doubt it will ever be able to serve it's purpose as an office building ever again. But if it looked nice and it were safe be around, it would be a beautiful 'monument' and would definitely spark development in the area. Some serious thought would have to go in to masterplanning the area though (damn, there i go again with a Corktown mastrplan, i'm gonna get whacked by some greedy mafia types for advocating a rebirth of the area). | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1232 Registered: 10-2006 |
Save it to be used as a site to shoot movies. | ||
Civilprotectionunit4346 Member Username: Civilprotectionunit4346 Post Number: 162 Registered: 06-2007 |
The building is sound, they building has alot of potential for a rebuild. The person who owns MCS also owns the Ambassador Bridge...kind of gives you a hint about how they care about the quality of the buildings they own. | ||
Catman_dude Member Username: Catman_dude Post Number: 175 Registered: 03-2006 |
Since I lived in Virginia for quite some time now, I'm not aware of issues with the Ambassador Bridge. Is the Ambassador Bridge falling down, falling down, fallllling down? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2801 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Considering the building has been standing upright for the entire 24 year duration of its vacancy, the major structural systems are probably just fine. Granted, there would probably be a bit of localized work required. Don't confuse appearance with structural integrity, though. Now, new windows may be a bit pricey.... The City of Detroit needs to get off its ass and jack up the property tax rates for vacant properties. There are two ways to induce slumlords like Maroun to do something with their buildings--wait for the market to (hopefully) take off enough where land values justify rehabs and renovations, or tax the shit out of them so they're financially motivated to start producing revenue or unload the property to someone who will. | ||
Irvine_laird Member Username: Irvine_laird Post Number: 70 Registered: 02-2007 |
Magnetic levitation trains, consumer demand, and disatisfaction with air travel providers, will make rail travel a major competitor for air travel in the next generation. Why couldn't Michigan Central be a passenger rail terminal again? | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 345 Registered: 02-2007 |
Supposedly the structure is so strong it will be very hard to demolish | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1058 Registered: 11-2003 |
Danindc-- The station has been vacant for 19 years, not 24 (it closed in Jan. 1988). Granted, most of the space was empty by the end. Exmotowner-- Someone once posted on here that implosion may not be doable because of potential damage to the active RR tracks alongside the building--perhaps from vibrations that would unsettle the earth underneath the tracks). | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2805 Registered: 10-2003 |
My bad. For some reason, 1983 was sticking in my head. Regardless--MCS hasn't fallen down in the past 19 years.... | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3944 Registered: 10-2003 |
Nice idea Adm70 and it would be sensational to see. The one thing it has is excellent sight lines as it stands alone. Only Lee Plaza has anything close to its visibility. Here is an taste of what could be from the ruins of the old Ford HQ in Highland Park when an artist lit it up in 2005.  Impractical due to cost and lack of will?. Sure, but sometimes dreams inspire action. Everything has to start from a tiny kernel, just like all of us did. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1060 Registered: 04-2006 |
I only see MCS serving as a train station again if the CBD expands southward, and it becomes integrated into a mass transit system for the city/region. It would make a nice hotel, IMO. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 57 Registered: 06-2007 |
"Considering the building has been standing upright for the entire 24 year duration of its vacancy, the major structural systems are probably just fine. Granted, there would probably be a bit of localized work required. Don't confuse appearance with structural integrity, though. Now, new windows may be a bit pricey.... " Are we talking about keeping it vacant for rehab into office or turning it into an empty tribute to an era past. If an empty shell, who cares about windows at that level, get rid of em. What i'd be concerned about is crumbling concrete (or whatever floor system it has) from being exposed to the freeze/thaw cycle for approx. 20 yrs. I would love to see the floor slabs, gutted down to the steel beams and the building opened up to the sky. I can't say for sure what the possibility of that is, but please don't confuse a buildings ability to stand up with it's capacity to be safe for habitation. Many of these older buildings have an integral floor structure with little interlocking hexagonal clay tiles that keeps the exterior walls in place. I guess what i'm saying, is it depends on the structure before a determination can be made on how costly it would be to turn it over to public use. Could be cheap, could be expensive. If a steel frame, it could be pretty cheap. Demo the floor slabs, slap some paint on the steel to protect it, reinforce where needed to handle the freeze/thaw and drop in some lighting. Of course, i'd push for solar panels in order for it to electrically self-sufficient, but i doubt that would happen. I think most people think that it will be an office building again though. If someone has the money, great! But sofar, no takers. The best thing to do would be to get a masterplan for the area. That way investors would feel comfortable about investing in the area. The biggest issue i see, (other than taxes, but Corktown should be on it's own tax structure, seperate from the rest of the City...renaissance zone or something) is entrenched private interests...Manny marouns, illitch's...whoever. The sad thing is, that they hold on to these properties waiting to make money off of them, when if a masterplan were developed, they could be offered right of first refusal and have an extremely more lucrative proposition. Love the idea about high speed rail station. This link has some promising concepts. Looks fun too! http://www.interstatetraveler. us/traveler_station.htm | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1127 Registered: 07-2004 |
We must demolish the building. It is an eyesore. We must develop the green-field park into a park-in-front big box. Then we must use the site of MCS as green space. Can't have enough green space. Meanwhile, we'll fence off the back with razor wire and build a freeway exit all the way back to I-75, turning the rail tunnel into a joint rail-truck tunnel that will fill the air with particulate emissions. Mission accomplished. | ||
Hans57 Member Username: Hans57 Post Number: 182 Registered: 05-2006 |
Detroitnerd, I'm confused, was all that sarcasm? It's so hard to tell these days. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2808 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Thanks for the professional advice. I'll be sure to remember that on future buildings I design. The truth is, as alluded above, you'd need to do a comprehensive survey to develop the scope of work. The scope, in turn, would need to be developed based on any anticipated re-use of the building. There would likely be destructive probes and materials testing required, especially if original drawings aren't available. Anything else is just speculation. I'm not convinced, either, that structural steel would make it "cheap" to do anything with a building. I've renovated a 12 story steel-framed building at a cost of $39 million. I'm not sure I would consider that "cheap". Is a renovation/restoration/rehabil itation technically feasible? Absolutely. Right now, it's the economics (and Matty Moron) that are impeding any sort of development. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1128 Registered: 07-2004 |
Although I sort like the idea of people thinking I've finally snapped, no, it's just more relentless satire. In seriousness, I'm joking about how "green space" is used as a rationale for demolishing buildings and siting new ones wastefully. In my worst-case scenario, they knock down that building (and it would have to be KNOCKED DOWN) and eat up Roosevelt Park as a parcel instead. After bulldozing the opposition and getting what they wanted, they'd then wag their fingers at "smart development" groups saying, "we built closer to the street" and "there's valuable green space where the decrepit station was. What's your problem?" OK, more serious yet. It's a TRAIN STATION. They're doing everything they can to try to make it into something OTHER THAN a train station. There are plans to turn the right-of-way into a truckway. That part is true. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 760 Registered: 01-2005 |
Danindc: I try to ignore your posts but am compelled to respond to your proposal to increase the tax rate on the building. First, such a proposal would not hold up for a microsecond in court. Second, the building is not an asset, it's a liability. Let's say the City did acquire the building for non-pmt of taxes. Big victory. That would insure it would remain a hulk for 19 more years. Your suggestion is par for the course. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 58 Registered: 06-2007 |
Danindc, you're welcome! They ARE two entirely different things, escpecially when dealing with a building that has been subjected to influences outside of it's design capacity. I can't tell you how many buildings i've gone through that, yes, were still standing, but no you couldn't walk on the floors. "I've renovated a 12 story steel-framed building at a cost of $39 million. I'm not sure I would consider that "cheap". " ...you sure you knew what you were doing, or did you just let the contractors bully you into spending way more than you needed to. No need to answer that, no way of verifying anyway. I think you pushed on of my buttons on that last smug little remark. Renovated for what? Not what were talking about here. Can we try to follow the same thread, if not, then SAY you are talking about something else, like...$39 million for an adaptive reuse that include x amount of office, retail, lofts...or $39 million to turn a building into a shell conducive to foot traffic on the lower level only...or something. just curious. not that it really matters. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 366 Registered: 10-2005 |
This structure is key to Detroit reinventing itself and if undertaken, a statement would definitely be made to the world: We're on our way back! More so than any other structure in the city, I would love to see this one brought back to life. Imagine the park with new residential/commercial with this structure redone. Quite a statement for sure! | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2810 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Why not? quote: Why would you spend money on a building that's not going to generate any revenue? You're talking about spending millions to create an empty shell--as if people are somehow going to show up and be awed by it. How is this different from the status quo? The building and the property have immense value, and in an ideal world (i.e. one without Matty Maroun and the Detroit City Council), the MCS is redeveloped as a station on a high-speed Midwest rail network. quote: Let's make a deal. I don't tell you how to do your job, you don't tell me how to do mine. Fair? | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 59 Registered: 06-2007 |
Danindc, Sorry to get my panties in a bunch. Since i think our jobs are probably very similiar, that deal might be difficult to uphold, but i'll refrain from pretending omniscience. Regardless, i'm sure we have the same opinion and same outlook on many things, just not communicating those here. "Why would you spend money on a building that's not going to generate any revenue?" Goes back to the masterplan concept as well as Corktown having it's own tax structure. Instead of the City charging the sh*t outta any new residences, initate a tax that takes care of just Corktown. I'm not proposing to spend City money on something with no value other than (yes, people will be awed by it, they all bought the 'pet rock' and 'beanie babies' at some point didn't they? Don't underestimate john q. public's irresistable attraction to shiny objects) a glorified piece of civic art. What i'm proposing is to use the masterplan to spur development in order to generae revenue in order to spend on civic improvements. Ultimately, the MCS and Tiger Stadium and a thousand other Detroit icons, belong to the people more than the owners. I appreciate your point of tearing it down for want of a profitable office building, but we are continuously proving the point (though no one listens) that the general population demands variety and historical context in which to exist within. They want to be proud of where they live. Whatever argument you can show me for tearing down and building some Southfield Towncenter highrise complex, i'll show you a hundred reasons why that is just the perpetuation of sh*t. You should visit minneapolis. I'm not sying it's perfect, but they have the right idea about blending the old with the new. I don't know of any American City that has actually transformed a building into a civic piece of art though, anyone??? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2811 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I think there's some misunderstanding here. I have never advocated for tearing down MCS. I think the building can (and should) be redeveloped, but there are some serious financial obstacles in the way. Structurally, I think it's VERY feasible. | ||
Hooha Member Username: Hooha Post Number: 143 Registered: 06-2005 |
I say we just sell it to Michael Bay so we can keep seeing it in his movies. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 375 Registered: 07-2005 |
Right now, if anyone wanted to live or work, it would make a lot more sense for them to do it in Downtown, Midtown, or New Center. Other than being MCS, there's no point to it. | ||
Karl_jr Member Username: Karl_jr Post Number: 18 Registered: 06-2007 |
What the heck are you people talking about??? It is going to be Detroit Police Headquarters with plenty of jail space. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4721 Registered: 08-2004 |
Karl Jr.... that idea died 2 years ago as being too expensive. One alternative is that the current Police HQ building is going to be rehabbed instead. | ||
Karl_jr Member Username: Karl_jr Post Number: 20 Registered: 06-2007 |
Yea, it was a stupid idea. I shouldn't have went there. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4632 Registered: 10-2003 |
Did they ever look at turning it into a casino? Could this have even been possible? | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 387 Registered: 03-2007 |
I can see the Governor going all out and pushing for Detroit to open a 4th casino to help counteract the states financial hardship. The train station can be converted to a full scale casino resort and hotel complex. The train line can stay, further pushing transportation throughout the region. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 507 Registered: 12-2006 |
The essential problem with MCS, aside from its condition, is that it is in the middle of effing nowhere. Sure, right behind it is the east end of Mexicantown, which is an interesting and vibrant community, but that's behind it and disconnected from it by the tracks. It's a long walk from corktown, it's nowhere near downtown, it isn't near anything. The existing passenger rail service doesn't and won't come anywhere near that location, nor does the proposed Ann Arbor commuter service. That, I think, has a lot to do with why it's in the shape it is. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2818 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: It could, though, if there were a transit link from MCS to downtown and midtown. Think about it. Chicago's Union Station is just outside the Loop. DC's Union Station is on Capitol Hill--not quite downtown or the midtown/K Street business district. New York Penn Station and 30th Street Station (Philadelphia) aren't exactly downtown, either. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 370 Registered: 10-2005 |
hmmm---long walk to downtown?? I walked it in 20 minutes last time I was back. I don't consider that long. Not everything has to be downtown folks... Start thinking ahead a bit and use that good old imagination. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1065 Registered: 04-2006 |
"One alternative is that the current Police HQ building is going to be rehabbed instead." Which is what they should have been doing in the first place. I personally think someone wanted to develop that spot and it fell through... | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4724 Registered: 08-2004 |
If any possible use for that building can be found, I hope it happens. However, rather than tearing it down as a last resort, I wonder if it could be kept as a sort of "ancient ruin". This is somewhat how Camille Jose Vargara had plans for making the northern end of downtown Detroit the "American Acropolis", ie. an American ruin. But in a more isolated way. I was just looking at a famous Roman ruin in the city of Trier Germany (founded 16 BC, it is Germany's oldest city, and was called the "Second Rome" during the Roman Empire era. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Trier_porta_nigra.jpg It is a beautiful ruin, known as the Porta Nigra, or "Black Gate". It serves no function other than to be a tourist attraction.  Again, I would rather find a functional use for the MCS, but it would make a spectacular ruin, especially if well lighted, as has already been mentioned, and sited in the middle of a park, which it already is. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 62 Registered: 06-2007 |
"I think there's some misunderstanding here. I have never advocated for tearing down MCS. I think the building can (and should) be redeveloped, but there are some serious financial obstacles in the way. Structurally, I think it's VERY feasible." Sorry, it was someone else that suggested bombing it with f-16's. "The building and the property have immense value, and in an ideal world (i.e. one without Matty Maroun and the Detroit City Council), the MCS is redeveloped as a station on a high-speed Midwest rail network. " Now's the time. We should be pushing for an 'Erie Loop' to start. Considering the following recent news, we should enter negotiations with Canada for a Toronto, Buffalo, Toledo, Ann Arbor Detroit loop. http://www.premier.gov.on.ca/n ews/Product.asp?ProductID=1383 | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 141 Registered: 12-2003 |
The MCS was built in a completely different era and that area actually had its master plan that never came through. Corktown was supposed to be replaced by a huge business district and Henry Ford had bought land across Michigan Avenue as a potential world headquarters site. It would have been spectacular to see the MCS as the architectural and transportation center to a section of downtown that would have rivaled New Center and the GM headquarters. Imagine huge hotels, convention space, restaurants and theaters all around the MCS with a boulevard from the front doors of the MCS to the steps of the DIA. Spectacular! But this master plan never happened as the expansion of downtown stopped and the station grew increasingly isolated from a contracting urban core. Now the MCS is in a forgotten backwater that shows no sign of revitalization, especially not before the complete obsolescence of the badly weathered building. As much as it pains me to think so the MCS has no future. The Casino idea was its last great hope and the ruins idea would never fly in a city that wants nothing more than to shed its rust belt image. Too bad no one had foresight in 1988; it wasn't mothballed and protected to be the foundation of a new urban master plan. By now it is the anchor that holds the sunken ship of the area down. Its time came and went in this disposable society we call America. It sure is fascinating to dream and watch it crumble away, though! | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 385 Registered: 11-2005 |
Send the F-16's to Matty's and force him to come up with a comprehensive development plan. It should be the People mover Headquarters!!!!! | ||
Catman_dude Member Username: Catman_dude Post Number: 176 Registered: 03-2006 |
Supposedly the current movie Transformers had filmed a bit at MCS. | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 387 Registered: 11-2005 |
can't wait to check it out. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 878 Registered: 11-2004 |
All is not lost for MCS, how many 10-15 years ago would've said the Book-Cadillac was hopeless? The biggest obstacle is not the building size or location but its owner. A perfect model for MCS is what's happened to the Buffalo Central Terminal a building very close MCS design and situation to downtown. It's owned by a non profit that's raised money to mothball the building http://buffalocentralterminal. org/ One thing about MCS I've wondered is why Matty would want to own it in the first place? Sure its close to the Ambassador, but what about it or the land it's so important that he'd hold on to it this long. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 66 Registered: 06-2007 |
Ventura, your right, the MCS was built a day late and a dollar short in a time when architecture had already made it's leaps and bounds in steel construction technology, no one could of predicted the outcome of a society gone car crazy though so i still applaud Detroit for trying to think forward at the time. I think that could be detroits new slogan, 'trying to think forward'. Too bad we can't act (anymore). HEY! i like the color of rust. What would the World Trade Center be in the future without a memorial? Do we simply shed our past so lightly, i hope not. I was this close (i'm squeezing my fingers together) to going and seeing Transformers tonight, looks sweet! 'People mover headquarters', i'll remember that one next time i'm feeling down, thanks Urban! | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 388 Registered: 11-2005 |
any time JB3 | ||
Bits Member Username: Bits Post Number: 13 Registered: 02-2005 |
The MCD is still privately owned by Manny Maroun, the International Bridge Co, and Centra. No one can tear it down but them and they have no plans to do so. The building is structurally sound. Extensive structural testing was done in 2001 when the city council wanted it torn down. The owners also cleaned the building out, drained the basement of the standing water and secured the building. It is much harder to get into now then it used to be. Multiple plans for the building were developed by McIntosh Poris Associates for the owners for the tower to be offices and the base to be cultural and retail. Casino's were looked at with the tower as hotel, but getting a 4th license is unlikely, and it was too late to move any of the three. The police headquarters was going to go there, but post 911, the city decided to create multiple centers and moved the communication center out of the headquarters which made it possible to stay where they are. Centra had planned to renovate it to be government offices, GSA, customs, immigration, etc related to the bridge, but 911 happened. Then Homeland security was considered but it was never funded. If their was a tenent for the tower, the owners would renovate it. Residential was not an option five years ago, but may be now that rents and condo prices are at market rates, which they were not in 2001. Until such time, the building is mothballed and makes a great movie set (see Transformers, and the Island). Its a beautiful building that should be kept until their is a use for it again. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 555 Registered: 07-2006 |
quote: Perhaps it has something to do with this... http://www.thejobstunnel.com/j obs-tunnel.php?nic=body | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 389 Registered: 11-2005 |
Matty and Illitch have a choke hold on the city and politics by holding on to historical landmarks and proposing to do something with them if the city will do something for them as well. with both playing such an integral role in the city's economy the council walks a tight rope, (Message edited by Urbanoutdoors on July 03, 2007) | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 67 Registered: 06-2007 |
Yup, the jobs tunnel runs right next to MCS, unless it ends up as a bridge. Hard to imagine that with the amount of construction acitivity neccessary to build a tunnel or a bridge that the MCS would be used as anything but a staging ground for the construction, in other words, so long MCS. Whats that to the NorthWest?  | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 556 Registered: 07-2006 |
Matty's probably sitting on it hoping he can block the tunnel more than anything. The link i posted says it would be the first commercial truck competition for the border crossing. Obviously he doesn't want to lose his monopoly, and I would think the MCS, or at least the rail yards behind it (how much does he own?), would be prime space for customs and such, and he could possibly slow or stop the development of the tunnel. And if the tunnel happens anyways, he could still be in a prime position to benefit from it. edit: after reading more, i see that both US and Canadian customs would be located in one facility on the Canadian side, so that may not be the case. however, he still would be in a good position to benefit from it. (Message edited by scottr on July 03, 2007) |
