  Nativegirl Member Username: Nativegirl Post Number: 83 Registered: 01-2004 |
I have been reading this remarkable biography on John and Horace Dodge and noticed that after their deaths the wives and offsprings bought, torn and built more houses than they could count. Just in GP alone, Anna Dodge had two Rose Terrace. Does any one have pics of the both (I believe the very first one that Albert Kahn built was torn down to make way for part deuce). Also, the various children had homes built or bought in GP. Does anyone have any pics of those homes? What about the Winifred Dodge Seyburn home in Indian Village? | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4637 Registered: 10-2003 |
Uh oh...dont get me started on this. You're gonna have me post so many times on this thread...I have tons of info....more to come in a moment... | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4638 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Dodge clan as a whole owned properties throughout Metro Detroit, Northern MI, Europe, and various other states. Hell, I'd be able to count at least 20 grand estates if not more. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4639 Registered: 10-2003 |
Off the top of my head: Forest Street/Ave East Boston Rose Terrace I and II John Dodge Harbor Hill Matilda Dodge Lincoln/GP John Duval Dodge GP Wesson Seyburn Mansion Meadowbrook Hall Sunset Terrace Indian Village (wedding present) Playa Riente (Laughing Sands) Palm Beach Locust Valley Long Island St. Leonard’s Castle (England) Manitoulin Island French Riviera Castleton Farm (Lexington KY) | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4640 Registered: 10-2003 |
There had been plans to rebuild the Horace Dodge carriage house/garage at 642 W. Forest. Maybe Lowell knows more about it. | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 329 Registered: 06-2005 |
This should help you out bud. There are lots of pictures of Rose Terrace and Rose Terrace II. Mrs. Edsel Ford watched those houses be destroyed and didnt want that to happen to her home so she left 5 million to keep the home open for the public. Here is a great place to start.... http://www.gphistorical.org/au tobarons/index.htm | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 330 Registered: 06-2005 |
There is also the Charles Fisher mansion in BE and Max Fisher's home is in Palmer woods. Lots of beautiful homes that are still standing. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4642 Registered: 10-2003 |
Anna tried to give Rose Terrace to the DIA and the DIA simply couldnt afford it. check the DYes archives for more info... | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1138 Registered: 07-2004 |
I heard that the Dally has been raising funds for the garage reconstruction, if I remember aright. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4912 Registered: 08-2004 |
One of the most unusual stories in the history of the Dodges was Danny Dodge, the son of Mathilda and John Dodge. After John died in 1920, his widow remarried, but never had any children with lumber baron Alfred Wilson. Ironically Danny Dodge died under strange circumstances. It seems that on his Honeymoon at age 21 (in 1938), he was on Manitoulin Island in Lake Huron with his new wife, and there was some explosion in which Danny was severely injured, and later died, drowning in Lake Huron. Here are 2 versions of the story (some scrolling required on the 2nd one): http://www.mysteriesofcanada.c om/Ontario/dodge.htm http://www.whitespointbb.com/m ystery.htm | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 608 Registered: 05-2006 |
Gistok, I always thought it was John Dodge Jr. that died under these circumstans' (Message edited by detroitej72 on July 23, 2007) | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 609 Registered: 05-2006 |
Wasn't John Dodge Jr. also known as J "Danny" Dodge? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4913 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well neither of the articles mentions his first name as John (they mention Daniel), and tours of Meadowbrook Hall reference his suite of rooms as Danny Dodge, so I don't think so, but I am not 100% sure. | ||
Neilr Member Username: Neilr Post Number: 542 Registered: 06-2005 |
Rose Terrace was the last major residential work by Horace Trumbauer. It is extensively described and pictured, with floor plans, in American Splendor: The Residential Architecture of Horace Trumbauer. http://www.amazon.com/American -Splendor-Residential-Architec ture-Trumbauer/dp/0926494228/r ef=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-0243702-351 8365?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=11851 95406&sr=8-1 | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1547 Registered: 12-2005 |
The Dodge brothers, John and Horace were hardworking, smart, driven machinists and manufacturers. The brothers could work all day, go drinking at the bar, get in a bar fight go home, sleep it off and get up early the next day and start over again. They built a huge company, going from the principal supplier to Ford motor co. to building their own brand of automobile. Dodge went from nothing to #3 top selling car in the nation in one year. Unfortunately, their progeny and heirs had all of the money and no drive or talent, and were given to squandering huge sums of money. | ||
Jrvass Member Username: Jrvass Post Number: 144 Registered: 01-2007 |
The Dodge Mausoleum at Woodlawn is across the "street" from my Great Grandfather's. I met a monument maker down there one day a few years ago to get a price on cleaning fire damage off our bronze doors (homeless people burning grave blankets to keep warm in the winter). Bill McIninch and I wander around some of the other mausoleums as we talked, and he takes me behind the Dodge building and asks me why moss was growing there. I said because it was shady and the north side. He said that moss can't grow on granite because there is nothing to be used for nutrients. The reason why it was growing was because the mausoleum was improperly ventilated and the moss was growing because of coffin gasses leaking through the joints of the mortar. :^p Sure enough. None of the other mausoleums over there were growing moss. Fun facts to know and tell! James | ||
Esp Member Username: Esp Post Number: 95 Registered: 09-2005 |
Coffin gasses. Woodlawn just got creepier. I've got an aunt and uncle buried there. I always thought the north end was spooky. When I drive through there I think "Money ... just can't take it with you." Across the 'street' must be Machpelah not Evergreen. | ||
Eastside61 Member Username: Eastside61 Post Number: 124 Registered: 07-2006 |
What ever happened to the yacht: Delphine It used to sit at the dock at the "Little Club" which was located next to the Dodge mansion that had about a 14 car garage.... | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1584 Registered: 11-2003 |
Delphine is docked in Monaco. It was actually on the Travel Channel featured in "great yachts" or something similar. It was fully restored to its original glory and has the distinction of being one of the few (only?) remaining steam powered yachts still in the world today. At least I think it was the steam that made it unique. You can find more here: http://www.ssdelphine.com/ Built in Detroit. Million Dollar Yachts is the name of the show on the Travel Channel. I actually used to work for the first guy Duane Hagadone back in high school. Don't really have fond memories of the guy, but I did know he had a ton of money. I had no idea he had enough to own a yacht like he does. If you catch the show, its ridiculous. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1585 Registered: 11-2003 |
Wow. I had NO idea Rose Terrace II was as palacial (sp?) as it was. I'd never seen pictures of it before. I just look at it and think about what a shame it had to go. It was a work of art, something that should not be destroyed. And yet it is gone. BTW, I understand the days when there was no personal income tax. However, how did the government get its money instead? Taxes on other items or were there just overall fewer taxes paid (and thus fewer services as well)? And lastly, was there just not enough money in the Dodge family to preserve Rose Terrace? If the Fords could do it, I would certainly think that between the Dodge family and other charitable donations that maybe it could have been saved. Unless it happened in that time when people just didn't care about preserving the past (60s 70s)? What a shame. Just a real shame. Those photos reminded me of some of the amazing castles in Europe. And the paintings are incredible. And finally, why is it that people don't build homes/estates like that any more? Is it really because they can't afford it? I guess I just look at all the people here in Silicon Valley and the money that floats around, and yet I get the feeling that these homes today are just huge, giant, mansions, but almost every single one lacks that majestic splendor the GP mansions had. Its almost like sheer size is how to display wealth. Nothing seems to be as stately and handsome as they were back then. I wonder why that is. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1586 Registered: 11-2003 |
Oh, and what is this island in LSC? http://maps.live.com/default.a spx?v=2&cp=r1xg5x82rf9q&style= o&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-10 00&scene=5637291&encType=1 I'd never seen that before. Is this where Delphine used to dock? Does it now belong to the house the walkway is connected to? Some kind of park or something? What I wouldn't give to be able to go back and see Detroit and Grosse Pointe in their heydays. Just for a few hours. It is so different today it is almost hard to imagine what it was like back then. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1549 Registered: 12-2005 |
Jerome81-the family gladly demolished Rose Terrace to GET MONEY. Everything comes down to MONEY at that level. Read my post above--the Dodge heirs could piss money away like few before them or since. The reason that most wealthy people today don't build mausoleums like Rose Terrace toady is that we live in a totally different world than existed when those homes were built. Energy for heating and cooling is exponentially more expensive (adjusted for inflation), and you can't go and hire an army of servants at what people expect to make today. Many of the people who worked as servants to the wealthy left that profession to work in factories after WWII. Steady hours, better pay, benefits--not being at the beck and call of someone 24 hrs. A day. The way things are going, we may see a reversal of this! Art Van Eslander built a gi-mungus French-style mansion within the last 15 years; I understand it had foundation problems. Most of the GP families tore down Dad's monument to himself. It's all about money, and there was more to be made subdividing the land for more modestly sized homes. Eleanor Ford (Edsel's widow) lived a long life in that house in GP, and the family and civic leaders thought it special enough to save. | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 366 Registered: 06-2005 |
"why is it that people don't build homes/estates like that any more? Is it really because they can't afford it?" Actually, some people still have the money to build them like that. I work right by a neighborhood in Nashville and they are building homes just as grand! I was amazed. I would like to know where all these people are getting the money these days. These houses Im talking about could fit right in with the Edsel Ford home or Rose Terrace. UNBELIEVABLE that they still build these huge homes, but they are. I too would like to have been there in GP and Detroits heydays!! | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4725 Registered: 10-2003 |
Keep in mind that the Dodge Brothers combined wealth in 2007 would roughly be $17 Billion dollars and this was before they died. Both Anna and Matilda cashed in when Walter P. came calling. It was actually the largest cash transactions of its time. In the end, the family pissed it all away on bullshit marriages and whatever else would temporarily make them happy. Their family story is sad in a way. It shows that money can’t buy everything. Imagine if Rose Terrace were to be replicated today. The same property in GP today alone would cost probably north of $30 mil. Then you have to figure in the actually design and construction. In the end it would run nearly 100 mil to construct the same house today and that doesn’t include a yearly amount for taxes and maintenance. I wouldn’t be surprised if it would cost 15 mil a year just to live in that place in current times. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1554 Registered: 12-2005 |
Patrick--Matilda and Anna Dodge sold the Dodge Brothers car concern to New York banking firm Dillon & Read in 1926, six years after their husbands died. They ran it for two years. Walter P. Chrysler bought Dodge brothers in 1928 (easy math there), and it was the coup he needed to go against Ford and GM. His purchase of Dodge was the birth of the term "big three". With the Dodge purchase Chrysler gained an established brand, a huge factory, a foundry and a large, established dealer network. | ||
Neilr Member Username: Neilr Post Number: 544 Registered: 06-2005 |
According to Michael Kathrens (see my post #542 above), Mrs. Dodge spent just over $1,000,000 to construct Rose Terrace. She then spent nearly $2,500,000 with Joseph Duveen, a world re-nowned art and antiques dealer, to decorate and furnish the house. | ||
Terridarlin Member Username: Terridarlin Post Number: 26 Registered: 02-2007 |
Christmas 1969 - 1970 some friends and I decided to Christmas Carol at the Dodge estate. I remember the long walk to the house, knocking on the door, the staff welcoming us and then bringing Mrs. Dodge nearby so she could hear the carols. She was in a wheelchair. They offered us a coke and we were on our way. It was quite a home and a wonderful memory. (Message edited by terridarlin on July 24, 2007) | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 369 Registered: 06-2005 |
Not that its any of my business, but I wonder where the heirs are and if they are still wealthy? Do they still live in the area? I think about these things quite a bit after seeing Jamie Johnson's (Johnson&Johnson)documentary Born Rich. I obsess way to much over wealth not to have any! LOL Just wondering what the Dodge family is like today? | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1590 Registered: 11-2003 |
The DIA is a much better museum because of the Dodge family. That is for sure. Though it might all be Mrs. Dodge. It is interesting that a lot of pieces from the Ford house were donated to the DIA, are still in the mansion, or a few children favorites were given to them. I asked specifically about some of them, and the woman at the house said that for the most part the art that was given to the children of Edsel and Elanor were given to their kids when they died (such as many of Josephine's items when she died a year or two ago). I can respect that. I'm thankful they gave so generously to the arts in Detroit. Selfishly we wish everything were for public display either at the DIA or the mansion, but I can certainly respect certain pieces being family heirlooms. Can't say that if my mother had a few things I loved that I wouldn't keep them for my home and family and not donate them to an art museum. I do find it amazing that I remember taking an art class sophomore year of high school, and seeing many of these pieces in slides and books. Then to walk into the Ford mansion and see the originals was fascinating! You think they're in Europe or something. They're in Grosse Pointe!  | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4924 Registered: 08-2004 |
I too have marveled over Mrs. Horace Dodge's Rose Terrace Drawing Room furniture that she willed to the DIA, along with the carpet I believe. But somehow since the rooms paneling and walls were not included in the bequest, it somehow dilutes the impact of the treasures on the casual visitor. All one sees are a modern blank wall gallery with a group of ornate furniture on a fancy carpet. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1591 Registered: 11-2003 |
Who did meadowbrook belong to? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4925 Registered: 08-2004 |
At Edsel & Eleanor Ford's House, each of the 4 Ford children were willed a major work of art. Henry II sold off his large Renoir painting (for $18 million), and a facsimile is found in the house. I believe that the other 3 children gave their major paintings to the DIA (including Dodie's Van Gogh painting of a postmaster that was hanging in the Morning Room). So facsimiles are found for most of the great paintings in the house. The one major painting original still in the house is Cezanne's "Mt. Victoire", which is still found in the green paneled living room. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4926 Registered: 08-2004 |
Meadowbrook Hall was built by John Dodge's widow Matilda Dodge Wilson, and her new husband lumber baron Alfred Wilson in the late 1920's. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2367 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: Have you had the chance to happen upon Larry Ellison's little boat up there in the Bay? | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4727 Registered: 10-2003 |
Want to know the main reason why Anna built Rose Terrace? It was because she wanted to impress Eva Stotesbury, Philadelphia’s queen of new money. It all started when Delphine Dodge, daughter of Horace and Anna, married James Cromwell, son of Eva Stotesbury. Anna was so impressed by Eva’s style and class that she wanted to copy everything about her. Huge mansion in Palm Beach? Check. Horace Trumbauer-designed mansion in home city? Check. Items owned by French royalty? Check. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4728 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well, all that and she married a gigolo named Hugh Dillman. He spent her money for her, but later divorced. He’s the one that wanted to erase Horace’s shadow looming over the original Rose Terrace designed by Albert Kahn. Sucks to be this guy because Anna kept a life-size portrait of Horace above her fireplace front and center. | ||
Jrvass Member Username: Jrvass Post Number: 145 Registered: 01-2007 |
Esp, I meant across the street like as within Woodlawn. Stand at the Dodge Mausoleum and the Bornman Mausoleum is just across the asphalt path on the corner. Further W. is the Fred Bornman mausoleum. They were newsboys when MI became a state. One had the territory W. of Woodward, the other East. Eventually John bought the Gulley(?) printing business, and he and his son Charles (my great grandfather) ran it until they died and it was sold after WWII. It once printed the Ferry Seed Catalogues and material for Ford Motor. Ration books during the war for the government. Charles lived on Lowell in Palmer Woods and had a summer place on Grosse Isle. Whether you are rich or poor, it's nice to have money! So I am told. Most of the money has been pissed away! James | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4730 Registered: 10-2003 |
I always wondered about the descendants of these mega-wealthy auto barons and if they still have any money left. I know the Fords do and some of the Fishers. Alfred Sloan had no children and I am not sure if Billy Durant did. I wonder about the “heirs” of Chrysler, Olds, Chapin, Buick, Dodge and so on. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1557 Registered: 12-2005 |
Paatrick--one of Walter P. Chrysler's grandsons lives out west, he's a real rugged western type, in his mid 70's. If he has a lot of money he dosen't act like it. Roy Chapin's grandson Bill (William) lives in GP and is a fixture in many old car events around town. There must be some of those Dodge brats around somewhere, crying over all the money they don't have anymore. BTW--Hugh Dillman (Anna's second husband) was often seen in the company of pool boys and other fallow young men kept around the manor. | ||
Xd_brklyn Member Username: Xd_brklyn Post Number: 264 Registered: 10-2003 |
Wasn't it David Dodge who helped with restoration of Orchestra Hall? If so, the same David Dodge I believe is now a trustee at Frank Lloyd Wright's Taliesin West. In the late '90s, he built a large FLW-inspired house on the grounds out there in Scottsdale, AZ. (Message edited by xD_brklyn on July 25, 2007) | ||
Yelloweyes Member Username: Yelloweyes Post Number: 154 Registered: 02-2007 |
I don't know if Durant had children, but Durant himself died realtivly poor. He lost his company in his later years, and owned a bowling alley. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4929 Registered: 08-2004 |
LOL at 56packman... I wonder if Hugh Dillman hung around high society actors such as Laurence Olivier, Montgomery Clift, Marlon Brando, Cary Grant and Rock Hudson... |
