Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 365 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 5:46 am: | |
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070704/B IZ/707040336 I agree with this quote from the author: "With acres of empty parking lots surrounding the building, DTE undertook the beautification project -- its first major construction on the campus in about 40 years. DTE's urban parks, coupled with MGM just to the west, could turn a concrete-covered corner of downtown into one of the city's more attractive quarters." MGM H-C + DTE urban park = say 35 acres (give or take) of less concrete, etc. then 5 years ago. Curious what will be next development/beautifican in the adjacent areas near the DTE urban park? The whole area which borders or is adjacent to DTE, e.g., Third, Fisher, Grand River, Cass, and Bagley. [yep, I know what is west of third ;-) ]. (Message edited by emu_steve on July 04, 2007) (Message edited by emu_steve on July 04, 2007) |
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3
Post Number: 84 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 5:58 am: | |
Awesome! I was wondering what was going on there. |
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 366 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 6:15 am: | |
BTW, if anyone wants to take a shot at my comment about adjacent development to DTE in the the area bounded by say Fisher, Grand River, Bagley, etc. here is the map (from one of the other threads). http://www.detroit2005.com/map o/main_area.html I count DTE and adjacent blocks numbering 10. I'd guess DTE has say 5 of those blocks, the Renaissance of Bagley looks to be another, etc. There is a block on the map in gray which looks to be 3rd, Fisher and Grand River (755 Plum?) and say 600 Bagley (parking lot?) - this one is not on the Detnews' map. This whole area looks to becoming the "Michigan Ave. Gateway to Downtown". (Message edited by emu_steve on July 04, 2007) (Message edited by emu_steve on July 04, 2007) |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5746 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 6:39 am: | |
It'll certainly look nice, but as the article clearly states, two of the three 'park' parcels going in will be for visitors and employees only. I can't help but think while this will look pretty, it'll largely be a "look but don't touch" kind of development effectively creating an aesthetic fortress, of sorts, around the buildings of the DTE center. So, I'm really doubting this will have much of a revitalization/spin-off effect on that area of downtown. This is not even to mention another fact given in the article that in the middle of the complex there will be a new atrium that will include a new food court and coffee shop, another reason to never leave the complex. You (a DTE employee) drive into the new MGM garage, have lunch at midday within the newly constructed atrium food court in the complex, and then drive back home. I guess any beautification is welcomed beautification, it would have just been great to see them use at least one or two of these lots for a mixed-use development to better fill in that part of downtown. This is strange, as I thought I'd never be disappointed in hearing about new greenspace in the city, but this seems like poor planning in many ways. Beautification? Definitely. Actual revitalization? Not so much. |
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 367 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 7:26 am: | |
quote: "I guess any beautification is welcomed beautification, it would have just been great to see them use at least one or two of these lots for a mixed-use development to better fill in that part of downtown. This is strange, as I thought I'd never be disappointed in hearing about new greenspace in the city, but this seems like poor planning in many ways. Beautification? Definitely. Actual revitalization? Not so much." Agree that the cup isn't full, but I see it 2/3s full. I never expected DTE to build something there which would have the dramatic effect of say arena, theatre, etc. What I was thinking is the revitalization will be in spin-off in some of those adjacent blocks. Again, the "A" word again, "Arena", with the MGM and DTE doing what they're doing in the west area, and a possible arena to the east of Cass, then there is a triangle (Grand River, Cass, and Fisher) for some in-fill development to occur. What DTE and a new arena would do is make that triangular area much more desirable for development, and in time, something would happen there. I see DTE helping to 'set the stage' for revitalization, but not being the revitalization itself. (Message edited by emu_steve on July 04, 2007) |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3154 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 11:40 am: | |
Help me out: what streets will be bounding the exterior of their campus after this? Beech, Bagley, 1st, and 3rd? I'm really having trouble make sense of the rendering. Actually the rendering makes it look like there's going to be parkland north of Beech, too, which would have to involve demos? And what becomes of the parking garage to the SE of their building? To me, either way, this is just way too huge. I think creating a park on the lot directly to their south would be enough. Bigger is not neccesarily better, just look at Campus Martius. Now, I understand that this is in a corner of downtown where there is little or no demand for retail, and really none for housing yet, but a small expansion coupled with marketing of adjacent lots (which would probably result in them being developed within 5-10 years) could probably net DTE more money in the long run, and provide the city with a more appropriately dense landscape in that area. The casino and this campus just show how suburban our mindset is...this are of downtown would not be glorified in any other midwest/east coast city. It would probably be condemned as a major waste of space. Anyway, I'm over it, we already have the BCBS fortress on the east side of downtown (still don't know why St. Antoine got cut off for that). Something desperately needs to be done with these blocks facing Michigan Ave. directly to the south of DTE: http://local.live.com/default. aspx?v=2&cp=r1nt0y82bs7q&style =o&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1 000&scene=5649368&encType=1 Talk about bad-looking gateway to downtown. |
Bulletmagnet Member Username: Bulletmagnet
Post Number: 757 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 12:00 pm: | |
Hummm...It seems we all love these 'green spaces' in Detroit. I do too. I just like it when the greatest landscaper of all does it better: https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/106497.html?1183559314 |
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1251 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 5:40 pm: | |
Maybe they will plant some urban prairie grass for you Bullet: http://i148.photobucket.com/al bums/s22/bulletmagnet69/101_79 65.jpg?t=1183561432. |
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313
Post Number: 390 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 7:53 pm: | |
That is a good look for the west downtown district. <313> |
Eric Member Username: Eric
Post Number: 882 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 9:10 pm: | |
In earlier thread about this, it was mentioned that DTE has its command center in the complex and for security reasons may not want to develop their property. If that's the case then this probably the best option, the green space beats the sea of asphalt there now. I'm usually against something so suburban looking being in a downtown area, like the new FBI complex, but since DTE been here forever I see no problem making it as attractive as possible. (Message edited by eric on July 04, 2007) |
Scottr Member Username: Scottr
Post Number: 560 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 9:55 pm: | |
Lmichigan, well said. I'm glad to see something more pleasant than acres of parking, but it's still not what i would call ideal. However, nothing is permanent, particularly landscaping, so it doesn't necessarily mean we won't see something in the future, when surrounding properties are developed and that land becomes more valuable. In the meantime, it's a vast improvement. |
Digitaldom Member Username: Digitaldom
Post Number: 638 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 10:48 pm: | |
Please the more green space the better.. that side of downtown is depressing... |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1557 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 11:01 pm: | |
there's no demand for those cement lots right now, so developing them into something that would have a more "urban" feel is unrealistic at this point... perhaps in 40 years the demand will be there and the land will get sold and developed as a result... for right now and the foreseeable future, however, freshly planted trees and new sidewalks are huge improvement over what's there now, especially given all the visitor traffic that corner is going to be getting soon... |
Bvos Member Username: Bvos
Post Number: 2207 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 12:18 pm: | |
I have to agree with everyone above, this park will be a self serving park. At least the article's author gets that fact, despite the PR spin DTE is trying to put on it: "DTE's 3,000 downtown workers will be the prime beneficiaries of the urban parks -- two of the three sections are exclusively for the company's use. Still, aesthetic improvements to one of the staple businesses of downtown Detroit are a boost for the entire city." The DTE building essentially sits by itself in the northwest corner of downtown. It's a self-serving campus. The casinos are also self-serving campuses. So this will be campus improvements for the DTE and casino, not really improvements for downtown as a whole. It's still a whole lot better looking than the sea of parking from the demolition of the Plum St. neighborhood. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5750 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 5:35 pm: | |
Yep, it looks good, but it's definitely style over function and substance. With the uprooting of all of these streets, and the construction of two superblocks, it's going to be really interesting to see how 3rd Street handles its newfound traffic, especially at Bagley and Michigan. I imagine it's going to be quite the mess. BTW, from what I can tell, here are the streets being taken up by these company parks: 1. One block of Plaza Drive between 3rd and 2nd. 2. Two blocks of 2nd between Beech and Bagley. 3. Two blocks of West Elizabeth between Grand River and 3rd. 4. And additional block of 2nd between Elizabeth and Plum. 5. And one block of Beech between 1st and 2nd. That's taking out 7 blocks of streets around the DTE campus, so, essentially, you're going to have a dozen + acre campus bound by Plum to the north, 1st and Grand River to the east, Bagley to the south, and 3rd to the West. Actually, when this is all said and done with MGM, you'll essentially have two superblocks bound by Bagley to the south, the Lodge to the west, the Fisher to the North, and 1st and Grand River to the east with the only real full through street being 3rd. Scary. (Message edited by lmichigan on July 05, 2007) |
Danindc Member Username: Danindc
Post Number: 2842 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 5:42 pm: | |
There isn't really much "urban" about these parks at all. Given that two of the three parks are private, this is nothing more than good old Le Corbusier "tower in the park". The green space is ill-defined at its perimeter, and will see very little cross-traffic. It seems these parks are designed to further remove the DTE campus from the rest of downtown, not reintegrate it. What a waste of an opportunity. This is where a competent professional force on the City of Detroit payroll would be beneficial. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5751 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 5:48 pm: | |
Here is the map I outlined to show the creation of these two new superblocks, and how much east-west and north-south traffic they will cut off when the casino comes online: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zo om.gne?id=730156645&size=o |
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1256 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 6:32 pm: | |
It will be ok. the freeway was what cut off the east west traffic, not any super blocks. |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1564 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 6:36 pm: | |
sweet...glad to see all those mini blocks getting developed/touched up with only two projects...it would probably have taken 3 or 4 more decades to develop them individually... superblocks are the answer to many of Detroit's problems at the moment...once things stabilize we can start concentrating on individual parcels one at a time |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5753 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 7:37 pm: | |
No, they aren't. |
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 377 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 7:41 pm: | |
BTW, LMichigan's map really shows what 2 large parcels totaling ~ 40 acres looks like. Now I wonder what will happen to that Plum Street block (by Grand River, Fisher, etc.) and maybe a block bordering Michigan Ave.? While I agree with Thejesus that the DTE area would haven taken many, many years to develop individually, I wonder if some of those remaining blocks will be odd blocks and never develop. (Message edited by emu_steve on July 05, 2007) |
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1567 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 7:59 pm: | |
"No, they aren't." We can agree to disagree. I'm just glad the those with the power and the money agree with me. If Detroit's economy were booming, I would prefer to see a more urban approach to development. But since our choices are either superblocks or cement lots and vacant buildings, the choice to me seems easy. |
Eric Member Username: Eric
Post Number: 883 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 8:30 pm: | |
quote:We can agree to disagree. I'm just glad the those with the power and the money agree with me They don't agree with you vast majority projects taking place use an urban approach to development. DTE is already a superblock it'll just be greener so I don't see it having negative consequences. But this isn't an approach to development should we want rely on in areas around downtown. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5754 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 11:07 pm: | |
No, this will make the already-superblock even larger than it already is, primarily. That it will appear a bit more pleasant with the largely off-limits 'parks' is just a consequence, really. As an example, while two different sized corporation, entirely, DTE and GM are developing into two very different beasts. The RenCen is a superblock, but fortunately, outside the the freeway loop. Even more so, they are developing their campus within the context of an urban environment, in many ways making up for the past mistake of planning their original fortress. While GM is developing, individually, a nice village-like area around its headquarters, and reducing the negative impact of their superblock (the RenCen) DTE is actually going to other direction building up "pretty" green walls and enlarging their superblock, not only not reducing the negative impact of their superblock, but adding to the negative impact. That it is greenspace, even if it were public greenspace, does not make it any less poor planning. And, the idea that it will be easy down the road to redevelop these lots on the DTE campus, and return the street grid is high naivety. I'm continually disappointed people aren't able, or choose not to see, that these type of redevelopments are just another example of Detroit accepting second best and sloppy second in terms of urban redevelopment. It's smoke and mirrors. You can slather up a pig with make-up all that you want to; it is still a pig, a polished turd, at the end of the day. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4741 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 11:30 pm: | |
I'm wondering how this is going to affect traffic getting off the Lodge Fwy. at the Bagley exit. Looks like a lot of cars will be making a LEFT TURN (north) onto Third Ave. for both MGM Casino and DTE employees. I wonder if that will really cause traffic to back up onto the Lodge during certain hours. |
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 2284 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 5:02 am: | |
The fact is, Lmichigan, that whole area was useless before MGM's permanent casino and nothing has changed with DTE adding green spaces to former surface parking lots and a few streets no one used except DTE employees. The fact is the fate of this area was sealed with the creation of the Lodge and Fisher freeways. They forced the lack of continuity with Corktown to the west and the rest of downtown to the north and east. These new development don't take anything away from what was there before, which was nothing but surface parking lots, an unused(cut-in-half) park, a few residences, and an obscure tea house. If these superblocks were in any other part of downtown, I would be ticked as well. In my opinion, the site where MGM's permanent casino is going could only have been developed with something like MGM's casino or a new hockey arena. A neighborhood of townhouses and retail shops would not have worked in that location because it was bounded by two freeways and essentially blocked from the east side of downtown by DTE's campus. No one would have wanted to live in that area surrounded by all that. Now, there may have been some potential for a livable neighborhood if the lodge didn't exist and people in that area could walk to Corktown via all of those lost streets, but that's all a moot point now. Superblocks suck Lmichigan, but where it will exist will not make matters worse. Just one of those things where you just have to accept your losses like I have to accept the fact that that skywalk for Greektown's casino has disfigured the St. Mary's schoolhouse just so that some lazy asses can feel safe and stay out of the weather in order to get to the casino. (Message edited by royce on July 06, 2007) |
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 379 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 6:21 am: | |
To sum up: "making do of a bad situation"? Like how long has the Lodge/Fisher been there? How long DTE? MGM folks and DTE are dealing with a hand which has been dealt many decades ago. Nothing great could have ever happened there so 40 acres of casino, green space, etc. beats what was there and most likely would have remained there in the future - not much. Time to move on. Now the riverfront is a horse of a different color. Or the Quicken site whereever it might be. Hudsons? Statler? There is no reason for those not to be jewels. (Message edited by emu_steve on July 06, 2007) |
Bvos Member Username: Bvos
Post Number: 2208 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 9:43 am: | |
"The fact is the fate of this area was sealed with the creation of the Lodge and Fisher freeways." Actually it was the creation of the DTE Headquarters (then Detroit Edison) that sealed the fate of the neighborhood. There was a thriving hippie community on the site until Detroit Edison decided to come in, a la urban renewal, and knock all the "old" stuff down and build a "gleaming" new super block site. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5755 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 5:33 pm: | |
Yes, the neighborhood continued to exist even after the freeways, though, they made it much harder to exist when the Fisher was pushed through. This pocket neighborhood could have survived in spite of the freeways. 1955 http://www.detroitrising.com/i mages/lodge5.jpg |
Detroitstar Member Username: Detroitstar
Post Number: 690 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 5:38 pm: | |
Looks like Detroit has always specialized in surface lots. :rolleyes: |
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