  Bushay Member Username: Bushay Post Number: 62 Registered: 05-2005 |
If that wasn't enough to open your eyes as to whats wrong with our health care system in America...I dont know what is. Like most of Moore's movies, the whole theatre gave it a standing ovation after it ended. If I didnt love Detroit so much, I think I just may move to France. What an awesome movie. Highly recomended. | ||
Gplimpton Member Username: Gplimpton Post Number: 59 Registered: 05-2007 |
It's a good movie...but let's not kiss so much Moore ass as to say his movie's get standing ovations. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 145 Registered: 12-2003 |
Why France, what's wrong with Windsor? Better healthcare and a better view of the Detroit skyline. Canada's a lot easier to emmigrate to than France anyway! Can't wait to see it. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 528 Registered: 12-2006 |
The sad thing about the movie is that it is essentially true. Every other developed country considers health care to be a basic service government should provide. We (well, our beloved government at least) think health care should be a for-profit business, like selling appliances or running a television network, and f**k the sick, elderly and poor. Now, I have heard negatives about Canadian health care from people there. The plan in Ontario is called OHIP, and the jab is "OHIP is a wonderful plan, as long as you don't get sick". But still, people there don't have to decide: do I go to the doctor about this nagging cough (say), or buy food for the kids? Can't we replace our entire government with something useful? Just pondering. | ||
Yupislyr Member Username: Yupislyr Post Number: 225 Registered: 07-2004 |
Why France Probably because France was ranked as the best health care system in the world by the WHO. 1 France 2 Italy 3 San Marino 4 Andorra 5 Malta 6 Singapore 7 Spain 8 Oman 9 Austria 10 Japan 30 Canada 37 United States (Message edited by yupislyr on July 07, 2007) | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 415 Registered: 11-2005 |
Ventura u'll see! I saw it the second day it was out very well put together I would have liked to see a little more in country interaction and better explanation of our system as a whole instead of the money trail of politicians and rejections of the system. Although that is the reality of it. All and all a good movie! Deals with many pressing issues. It also has a shot of Detroit from the ambassador. I highly suggest that everyone go see it. It looks like this weekend its at many more theaters than it was last week. (Message edited by Urbanoutdoors on July 07, 2007) | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 2023 Registered: 11-2005 |
Already being discussed on the Non-D. forum. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 2554 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote:But they do. Certainly not all showings of all his movies get standing ovations, but some do. Few other movies get even that. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8508 Registered: 09-2005 |
Professor said: "....people there don't have to decide: do I go to the doctor about this nagging cough (say), or buy food for the kids?" Or go to the casino. Everyone has access to healthcare in this country. No one is turned away. Our ER's are flooded with illegals (odd they don't get free care in Mexico either) but never mind - Americans are silly enough to say "let the govt pay for it" never thinking that it is they themselves who will pay. Further, do you really think the best doctors are going to work for government-dictated wages compared to what they make now? I suggest you hunt down the finest neurosurgeons and cardiologists and chat with them about nationalized healthcare, Michael Moore, and the prospects of them seeing you for no charge to you, and less-than-now to the government. "gone fishin" | ||
Atl_runner Member Username: Atl_runner Post Number: 1964 Registered: 10-2003 |
Every day, I analyse thousands of visits people go to the ER for. They report what's called a 'Chief Complaint'.. MAYBE 10 percent of the cases are legitimate needs cases.. MAYBE. With the rise in popularity of the retail clinic, at walgreens, etc, most people will have quick easy access to the medical care they actually need. Stop clogging the ER with needless cases that end up costing everyone. I think America has a bigger problem with Hypochondria than it does with Health Care. | ||
Gargoyle Member Username: Gargoyle Post Number: 87 Registered: 04-2006 |
Then why aren't we flooded with French, British, Japanese, or even Canadian doctors looking for those American healthcare dollars? Surely, if the nationalized systems chase away the best physicians we would be seeing some of them here. And I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want a neurosurgeon deciding I need a craniotomy when a less invasive treatment is available, simply because he wants the money. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1289 Registered: 12-2003 |
Karl says: "Everyone has access to healthcare in this country. No one is turned away." Yeah except the indigent patients that Kaiser Permanante in Los Angeles sent to Skid Row in taxis, when they couldn't pay their bill. They weren't ready to be released, medically, but KP had figured out they couldn't pay. The one elderly woman had a badly stitched head with blood oozing out of it. She stumbled around Skid Row in a hospital gown, confused, and was almost hit by a car. The L.A. Times wrote about this travesty; there is footage of this poor woman being dumped by the taxi in "Sicko." Kaiser Permanante didn't realize their taxi dumping would be picked up by a homeless shelter's outside cameras. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1290 Registered: 12-2003 |
p.s. Kaiser Permanante has since "changed its policy" on dumping sick patients in Skid Row. Yeah, that would have happened if the L.A. Times and Sicko hadn't publicized what they did ... | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2402 Registered: 06-2004 |
yeah, there are plenty of other dumping grounds if necessary - or just a little more morphine than necessary since no one will miss most of these people anyway, right? remember, in today's United States if you aren't wealthy you don't count for shit | ||
Nighternock Member Username: Nighternock Post Number: 22 Registered: 02-2007 |
karl, we pay for the police department, the fire department, the military, the postal service, sanitation. All these seem to work fairly well and nobody complains about it. why wouldn't we want to pay for health care too. Or would you rather see the fire department privatized and they would only rescue people who had the money or paid for fire department insurance? Come on! | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1291 Registered: 12-2003 |
It'd be great to get a letter from the fire department telling how it was going to "contain costs" but "still provide quality firefighting." Much as I just got a letter from HAP saying just that. And of course, "contain costs" was mentioned first. Oh and HAP was tooting its horn for a reason ...later in this two page letter my premiums helped pay to send out, was the line "Remember this as you and friends discuss blah blah blah and Michael Moore's movie this summer." Yeah I'll remember the great care I get, sure thing. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 131 Registered: 02-2007 |
All the UAW's and all other recipients of soon to be a thing of the past sweetheart benefits, have no problem with the present system. They have some of the best health insurance in the country for a large group. And it doesn't cost them a dime. Unfortunately, they are a very small minority. The truth is many people are dying in this country because they cannot afford to go to the doctor. One surgery would totally wipe them out financially. And thats some people with insurance. My own personal insurance is almost 400 dollars a month. No existing conditions (other than a curmudgeon  and the coverage is crap. Above and beyond the premiums, I'll wind up paying 1500 a year extra in deductibles and co-pay. The US has got to do something about this. 37th globally for health care? We're the richest nation on the face of the earth? I know a lady who had Kaiser. She answered a question on a form wrong and they just cut her off. With no reasoning other than that. And they will not take her back. She had insurance with them for 15 years. No recourse whatsoever. Private bottom line corporations should not sit in judgement of the quality of healthcare anyone receives. Even if the present system continues, they should never be involved with the treatment. If they want to be underwriters, fine. Left with the authority of deciding a persons health and welfare, no way. They are too concerned with profits. All of them. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8510 Registered: 09-2005 |
Sooooo much misinformation here, where to start. Gargoyle, you must not get out much. I'll let Ccbatson quote the stats on foreign docs in this country, there's a ton. And they're here for a # of reasons, including the $$$. Pfft - of course what KP did was wrong, and it was corrected long B4 Sicko came out. The actions of a few within an organization don't always reflect corporate POV's just like yours don't when you're drunk - and most of the time, no one knows, do they? However, what I find most interesting is your tacit approval of cameras in public places. Do you advocate more of these to catch private citizens messing up - or just corporate? Either way, quite a change of pace for you, isn't it? Lilpup is clueless, so we'll ignore that blather. Nighternock, how many times did you use the fire department in the last 10 years? How about the next 10? And do you anticipate we can hire healthcare professionals for the same cost as firemen presently and during the next decade? Privitization of fire departments has been done with much success (see Rural Metro Corp.) and the bonus was that municipal FD's became more competitive, bid for the business, and got some of it back from Rural Metro. The winners were the citizens. I suggest you check out how the first fire fighting and fire insurance companies were formed. Finally, Sstashmoo: No one is dying for lack of $$ for healthcare, sorry. Moore would have a whole movie just on that were it true. Let me know after your next hospitalization if your insurance cost was a ripoff or a bargain. You say "The US has got to do something about this." You wish to entrust your personal healthcare to a bunch who can't build a fence over many years? Finally, regarding your friend "who had Kaiser" - simply not true. No one who has been with Kaiser, kept their premiums paid current but "answered a question on a form wrong" ever lost their coverage. There's something more to it than that, you are wrong to smear them that way. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2404 Registered: 06-2004 |
Lilpup administrates health benefits and is in constant contact with insurance companies, so STFU loser. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 1065 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Outright lies as usual. quote: Translation: I don't agree with what you're saying so I'll just insult you. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 4394 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Why don't you just post the stats since you refute what's been put out instead of waiting for someone to back up your dubious claim that you KNOW you can't prove corporate apologist? | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8512 Registered: 09-2005 |
^ ^ ^ 3 more clueless posts that say nothing. Anyone else? ^ ^ ^ | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 132 Registered: 02-2007 |
Karl, No one is dying as a result of poor healthcare? Well if you read that, they were turned away and subsequently died, agreed. I haven't heard of that either. The intent was people are not looking into potential health problems because they have no insurance and are subsequently dying of it. It's a well known fact, the more affluent, the more healthy and the longer one lives. Why is that do ya think? Living shorter means dying earlier than one would have otherwise with proper healthcare. Or died for lack of proper healthcare. Hospitalization and healthcare in general is a total ripoff. People or organizations that actually pay for healthcare are paying for the people that don't have any. Thats the governments current healthcare plan. Here's how it works: When a person has no insurance and goes to the emergency room, the hospital eats the costs. They still have to pay the staff, the doctor, provide the floorspace, medications etc. Hospitals are a business like any other. They have bottom lines to meet every month. Who do you think those costs are passed on to? I personally know for a fact of one hospital that is moving out of the area because of this. They are way in the red. Read about the hospitals in Texas, Arizona and California. Re: My friend who had Kaiser, it is true. Look at the second complaint on this page. I guess he's lying too. http://www.consumeraffairs.com /insurance/kaiser.html I am wrong to smear an insurance company? You've obviously never tangled with one. Lastly, Anyone that thinks a fence is going to keep someone out, apparently has never picked up a history book. Maginot line? Great wall of China? Both were totally ineffective and wasted effort. A cyclone fence will do better? | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 133 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "Translation: I don't agree with what you're saying so I'll just insult you." Further translation: I don't understand what you just said, so I'll just insult you" | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8515 Registered: 09-2005 |
Sorry, I've been "tangling" with insurance companies for a long time. Odd, the sick seldom think healthcare and hospitalization are ripoffs, especially when they walk out better/cured. Most of us are walking around today, enjoying productive lives because of healthcare and excellent hospitalization. The naysayers are generally those that are paying and don't wish to, or can't, or won't. Once again (I said this on another thread) I suggest you study union members. They've had the closest thing to national healthcare possible. How are their costs? How is their longevity? Perhaps most telling, how much are they whining? The answers are there, study 'em. But you contradict yourself: why shouldn't hospitals be allowed to close if they can't pay their bills? Most can, and stay open. The few that can't should be able to slip away without government resuscitation. Yes, I know about the hospitals in those areas. I don't blame them - they're overrun with illegals who have no intention of paying. Perhaps you can call them and give them your Visa #. Your friend who had Kaiser = not true. Regarding "the fence" yes we certainly can secure our border, and I expect that we finally will within the next 18 months. When Americans really want something, they get it - and most of 'em really want this. So we'll see - methinks you'll be surprised. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 134 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: Your friend who had Kaiser = not true. And you know this how? Instead of arbitrarily refuting with an "Oh they'd never" How about some meat to back it up? Quote: "Once again (I said this on another thread) I suggest you study union members. They've had the closest thing to national healthcare possible. " Playing a game of "Give us great benefits or we'll walk out" is not even remotely close to a national healthcare system. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some retirees start losing their healthcare benefits. The field has changed, no more an endless supply of revenue that the unions can extort from companies. These upcoming talks should be interesting, methinks the union is in for a big surprise. Back to the fence: Are you serious? A fence is going to keep someone out of our country? There's roughly 200 miles of ocean between Cuba and Haiti and the U.S., it doesn't keep them out. Whats in this fail-safe border protection plan, ban the sale of wire-cutters and ladders? Its a wasted effort and only wishful thinking. The only way that will ever be controlled is deport them, use of force and prosecute the people that hire them. | ||
Kid_dynamite Member Username: Kid_dynamite Post Number: 99 Registered: 06-2007 |
Nice "discuss Detroit" subject here. | ||
Deteamster Member Username: Deteamster Post Number: 11 Registered: 07-2007 |
I'm new here but I'm going to go ahead and assume "Karl" is short for Karl Rove. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 352 Registered: 05-2006 |
Isn’t funny how the political right in this country loves big government when it comes to expanding presidential power but hates it when it comes to providing basic human services such as health care or social security. There will always be abuses in the health care and insurance industries so as long as they continue to be run on a “for profit” business model. To expect otherwise is simply naive. | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 60 Registered: 07-2006 |
Grady Hospital in Atlanta is one one the BEST trauma care centers in the country but is almost going under because of the ENORMOUS amount of FREE care they provide to indigents and ILLEGALS!! The Constitution does not declare medical care to be a right that the government must provide. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2409 Registered: 06-2004 |
If there was universal health care the costs of covering the indigent would be spread across the entire system instead of unduly burdening hospitals in impoverished areas. | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 422 Registered: 11-2005 |
AH forget it I am moving to france so the government can do my laundry, pay me five weeks vacation for working part time and give me a dollar an hour child care. Oh yeah and health care not to mention unlimited sick days. I would pay taxes for that any day! | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 63 Registered: 07-2006 |
Grady Hospital is in DOWNTOWN Atlanta and NOT an impoverished area. If the government takes my hard earned money to provide for the "less fortunate" that gives the "less fortunate" less incentive to actually provide for their own wellbeing. Lilpup, if YOU choose to contribute to pay into a fund for healthcare for those "less fortunate" then thats your choice. HOWEVER, do not require me to do the same. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2410 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: Atlanta has no indigents? They come from where? | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 64 Registered: 07-2006 |
Lilup, PLEASE try to read for comprehension. You said "costs of covering the indigent would be spread across the entire system instead of unduly burdening hospitals in impoverished areas." I said "Grady Hospital is in DOWNTOWN Atlanta and NOT an impoverished area". So your reply of "Atlanta has no indigents? They come from where?" really makes no sense. Simple solution, you want to spend your money, I don't. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2412 Registered: 06-2004 |
So Atlanta is a poverty-free zone? | ||
Mpow Member Username: Mpow Post Number: 264 Registered: 11-2003 |
I live in Mexico and it costs me 2 dollars for a check up. Great doctors down here too. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1292 Registered: 12-2003 |
Rick, Why should you pay for firefighting for those pesky indigents, too? And let them buy their own library books! | ||
Nighternock Member Username: Nighternock Post Number: 23 Registered: 02-2007 |
Karl, I've actually seen the fire department in the past 10 years and there are a lot of things they do behind the scenes that we should all be grateful for, especially in a big city and in the age of terrorism. Trust me. Also, I do know about the history of the there being private fire insurance companies. People had stickers on doors and windows and if you didn't or couldn't afford to have one, good luck. And if the private fire insurance companies were so successful, why don't we use them anymore. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6175 Registered: 02-2004 |
As for that movie SICKO, This nation need UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE for people need to be treated and not to be tossed out in the garbage like a broken product. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8517 Registered: 09-2005 |
Nighternock, re: fire depts, I'm simply comparing the taxpayer costs of providing FD's vs universal healthcare/disability/long vacations/nannys, huge difference. When watching Sicko, I was stunned that Moore didn't take a closer look at costs to the taxpayers. There must be a huge cost to taxpayers to provide 100% disability for a year for pregnancies alone, along with nannies that will come in and even do the wash and make dinner. When Moore speaks of infant mortality, this country does far more to keep kids with problems alive - and we're successful mainly because we try, secondly because we are capable. Regarding "offing" people because of costs, governments do it too. Start with the Netherlands - when you have someone ailing there, you'd better stay by their bedside 24/7 for if you don't, you may find Granny's bed ready for the next patient tomorrow morning as Granny "didn't quite make it" in the "dead" of night. Remember, these are countries that believe strongly in euthanasia, and not necessarily voluntary on the part of the patient. The film was an interesting, albeit onesided, documentary. I found it fascinating that Moore's relatives were responsible enough to purchase supplementary insurance (at Sears, of all places) to protect their assets when traveling out of Canada even for a very short time. Wish our own citizens were so responsible! | ||
Yaktown Member Username: Yaktown Post Number: 190 Registered: 02-2006 |
Why the hell would people give a movie a standing ovation? The people on-screen can't see you standing and applauding. Or are you confusing this with people actually leaving the theatre. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 135 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "When Moore speaks of infant mortality, this country does far more to keep kids with problems alive - and we're successful mainly because we try, secondly because we are capable." As long as their insurance covers it. If it doesn't... We're ranked 37th globally. Quote: "Start with the Netherlands - when you have someone ailing there, you'd better stay by their bedside 24/7 for if you don't, you may find Granny's bed ready for the next patient tomorrow morning as Granny "didn't quite make it" So they just accidently, sorta on purpose disconnect granny's life support? Is there a written procedure somewhere on that? ::Act non-chalant, if they notice, apologize:: I can hear the head nurse at the start of the shift. "Listen up people, we gotta free up some beds tonight!" | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8522 Registered: 09-2005 |
Yaktown, earlier in this thread folks spoke of standing o's when the movie ended. I didn't see any indication of that. Sstash, sorry, our numbers are skewed. Babies that are counted as having died often aren't counted in other countries due to our efforts long after birth to keep them alive - sometimes failing. Further, I suggest you read some of the horror stories from the Netherlands - you're not too far off the mark when it comes to freeing up beds on the night shift......... | ||
Kslice Member Username: Kslice Post Number: 90 Registered: 04-2007 |
I saw it at the Livonia 20 (REALLY nice theater). Obviousley no applause at the end.. | ||
Sturge Member Username: Sturge Post Number: 38 Registered: 05-2007 |
As for National Health care, I wonder if Americans are really prepared for the kind of tax increases that will be needed. Here's a good article on CNN. http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH /06/28/sicko.fact.check/index. html?iref=newssearch "Moore focuses on the private insurance companies and makes no mention of the U.S. government-funded health-care systems such as Medicare, Medicaid, the State Children's Health Insurance Program and the Veterans Affairs health-care systems. About 50 percent of all health-care dollars spent in the United States flows through these government systems." | ||
Unclefrank Member Username: Unclefrank Post Number: 67 Registered: 03-2006 |
Universal health care is on the way. The next Deomcratic President of the US will see to that. Who knows, with the health care Albatross removed from employers necks, perhaps we can start to hire people to manufacture things again. | ||
John_galt Member Username: John_galt Post Number: 4 Registered: 08-2006 |
I don't recall the Constitution stating anything about a right to health care. But then I doubt that most of the socialists who post on this board have ever read it. Want good health care? Work hard and get it. Don't cry for those of us who do to bail everyone else out. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1293 Registered: 12-2003 |
JG, Yes most of us read Ayn Rand ...then we all turned 15 and got over it. | ||
65memories Member Username: 65memories Post Number: 428 Registered: 10-2003 |
Actually one of my biggest movie surprises came when I viewed Bowling for Columbine up north at Clare, Michigan's Ideal Theatre. On a summer weeknight the theatre was packed and when the movie was over the patrons --- in Clare, Michigan, for God's sake --- gave the film a standing ovation. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1693 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: The Michael Moore fans are not prepared, they believe him when he says it is "free" like he does in "Sicko" about 10 times. | ||
Imperfectly Member Username: Imperfectly Post Number: 249 Registered: 06-2004 |
I am pretty sure this healthcare debate has been covered on here before ! But just to inject a little bit of reality especially to those with the attitude that all you have to do is "work hard" and you will have health care which is essentially just a jab at what they consider poor people... I have been working since I was 13. I am 31. I worked in corporate america where yes that was easier to obtain health benefits. For the last 4 years I have been in an industry that typically does not provide any healthcare benefits.(Stylist) For me to insure myself ...just me...thru blue cross I would have to pay 368 dollars a month ! I make around 30k a year, I own my home. I have a car. In no way do I consider myself lazy. I work 5 days a week. I simply cannot afford almost 400 bucks a month for healthcare. Now, I have been researching options and I can afford at the most 150 dollars a month in healthcare. What that gets you is a huge deductible that you have to meet first so essentially you still pay out of pocket so unless something catastrophic happens you are out of luck. I do not know what the solution is to this problem. But I do know what its like to go without basic checkups and tests and to stretch medication out so it lasts longer. I even go as far as to have my sister ask for refills on her asthma inhaler so she can give me one just in case I need it. I have no problem obtaining insurance on my own if my employer cannot provided assistance with that but at a reasonable price ...thats all I really want !!!! | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8534 Registered: 09-2005 |
Imperfectly, all I can say is buy the high ded and if you need it - and once you will - then use it, otherwise just consider it like your homeowner's insurance that you probably will never use either. You can always toss a few grand on your Visa to avoid a $100,000 bill - but not $100,000 on your Visa. For your checkups, shop around. There are traveling clinics that help folks out at malls, etc. Google "cheap checkups Detroit" and you'll be in business. Do not go without coverage. | ||
Philbert Member Username: Philbert Post Number: 258 Registered: 10-2003 |
^Try gettin coverage with a pre existing condition. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2470 Registered: 07-2004 |
No wonder batson et,al are so against some kind of nationalized health care.http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060926/L IFESTYLE03/609260338/1040 if anyone cares to look further in this series they will see how we came to have private insurance.......... anyhow the health industry needs to take a big part in how screwed up things are.....I think the article called it the most inefficient in the world...........changes are coming whether some of you like it or not. | ||
Detroit_girl Member Username: Detroit_girl Post Number: 104 Registered: 10-2003 |
Quote: Why the hell would people give a movie a standing ovation? The people on-screen can't see you standing and applauding. Or are you confusing this with people actually leaving the theatre. This always puzzled me too. The filmmaker and actors can't hear you clapping, obviously. Great movie. Frightening. | ||
20043_stotter Member Username: 20043_stotter Post Number: 48 Registered: 03-2007 |
The applause and standing ovation is to share with the audience how good the movie is, and they are in agreement with it and the topic of it. That's why. People aren't stupid. They know that Michael Moore isn't there. They're glad he made the movie about the health care mess. | ||
Amy_p Member Username: Amy_p Post Number: 804 Registered: 10-2003 |
Kslice: I saw SiCKO tonight at the Livonia AMC 20 and there was applause at the end, and crying people leaving the theatre. Careful about stereotyping. | ||
Oladub Member Username: Oladub Post Number: 53 Registered: 08-2006 |
I listened to a Canadian consol, some years ago, describe reasons the Canadian health care system delivered health care for so much less per person. Reasons included- -Doctors can be sued for no more the $10,000. Consequently they do not have to purchase expensive liability insurance and pass on the costs. -The government buys in bulk. This results in better pricing. Pharmaceutical companies do not have to pay for as many sales people or do as much advertising so they can sell their goods cheaper. -Hospitals bill the government. The price for a procedure is always the same. One person sending the government bills can replace a hospital wing of employees dealing with the nuances of hundreds of different insurance policies and how they interact with government assistance. This extra bureaucratic cost is not past on to paying customers. - In a given geographic area, expensive machinery is not duplicated. One hospital has specialized cancer treatment equipment while another hospital has the best kidney program for instance. A good place to start reducing costs would be to throw the lawyers out of health care. They cure no one but make medicine a lot more expensive for anyone who pays. This would, in turn, reduce insurance and office staff costs. Government could encourage hospital specialization, purchase in bulk, and provide free transit back home to illegal aliens provided free care. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2154 Registered: 02-2004 |
I found out today that a friend of mine, a hard working woman who is married to a small businessman, is about to be made homeless by his terminal illness. The cancer has drained every single dime, her house will be taken soon, he'll be dead (reports say within the week) and she'll be 59 years old with nowhere to go. Treatments, premiums and time will have everything. She is also without health insurance now (they couldn't afford coverage for both), Medicare won't kick it for a while. Name another industrialized country who will let their hardest-working citizens be washed down the toilet like that. To quote Neil Young, in the land that's known as freedom how can such a thing be fair? NATIONAL HEALTH CARE NOW. | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 874 Registered: 07-2005 |
quote:India. Most of India's billion-plus people struggle with a public health care system that is overburdened in cities and virtually nonexistent in villages. On the other hand, private health care is booming, and the country's state-of-the art hospitals and highly skilled doctors even attract patients from countries where health care costs are much higher. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 221 Registered: 05-2006 |
Yeah! We are better than India! I would bet we beat the pants off of Sudan too! Yippee Yahoo! | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2156 Registered: 02-2004 |
And what a splendid example. That's where my job is moving in about a year and a half, the brand new middle class being built with our former jobs can afford privatized health care. | ||
Udmphikapbob Member Username: Udmphikapbob Post Number: 384 Registered: 07-2004 |
yo, JG: quote: How about this little number: quote: See also Article I, Section 8: quote: Why do righties love to provide for the common defense so much, yet ignore promoting the general welfare? | ||
Oladub Member Username: Oladub Post Number: 54 Registered: 08-2006 |
Udmphikapbob, Alexander Hamilton and some of the Federalists might have agreed with your characterization of "general welfare". Jefferson, however, thought the term "general welfare" had two restrictions. First, the term applied only to powers specifically given to the federal government. "If by the “general welfare,” the Founding Fathers had meant any and all social, economic, or educational programs Congress wanted to create, there would have been no reason to list specific powers of Congress such as establishing courts and maintaining the armed forces. Those powers would simply have been included in one all-encompassing phrase, to “promote the general welfare.” Second, "general" meant not for the benefit of special interests. The Constitution and powers granted to the federal government were not to favor special interest groups or particular classes of people. There were to be no privileged individuals or groups in society. Neither minorities nor the majority was to be favored. "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." James Madison "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." Benjamin Franklin "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were to those specifically enumerated" Thomas Jefferson But take heart. The 10th amendment reads,"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved for the States respectively, or to the people." Michigan therefore is allowed to have its own health program or the US Constitution can be amended or ignored as it is now. President Bush referred to the Constitution as a "g-d piece of paper. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8550 Registered: 09-2005 |
Well hope they hurry up, Oladub - Oldbat needs health coverage. The only way anyone could wrest control of jobs from unions in Michigan was to ship the jobs to India. Oldbat, I'm sure you can hire on there, you have plenty of talent, Calcutta will be a nice change from Detroit and you can post a slew of new recipes using curry. What Moore's movie promotes is that 85% of Americans who have healthcare should give up what they have for the 15% who don't. Hmmmmmm. BTW, it appears that audience attendance for Sicko is now anemic, and with Moore ranting/raving on live TV he ain't helping matters much. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1297 Registered: 12-2003 |
Karl, You said you saw the film? It's mostly about the horrors of middle class people who DO have health care. We're paying more for health care than anybody else as a country, and we're getting high deductibles and crappy HMOs for it. Maybe that's your view of the Great Society, but I remember what it's like to have decent health care, pre-HMO. | ||
Bte_in_va Member Username: Bte_in_va Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2006 |
I wonder if Mr. Moore would be as big a fan of socialized film making as he is of socialized medicine.......... | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 79 Registered: 07-2007 |
Funny how MM tries to put off everything on the war and money. Yet, I don't see this sicko giving up his 200 million propaganda earned dollars to help with your socialist healthcare plan. not too mention what Karl said, too much misinformation the good rev | ||
Nighternock Member Username: Nighternock Post Number: 24 Registered: 02-2007 |
Are you guys who are against free health care also for a private military, no socialized postal service, private fire and police departments, all roads being toll roads and having to pay a private company to have your trash picked up? Karl, it is the 85% of us who have so called health insurance that are really getting screwed here. Please watch the movie before criticizing it. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8561 Registered: 09-2005 |
Pffft, Nighternock & others - I sat thru the whole silly thing. Pffft, does your car warranty include all oil changes and car washes? Why do you expect healthcare coverages to do the same - and then whine about the costs? Sorry, but many of the examples given could have been easily contested. Please - who ever heard of preauthorizing an emergency ambulance ride? Did that woman have a brain to protest the mistake? Nighternock, are you upsent you didn't collect back your car & homeowners insurance premiums as claims last year? Insurance is to cover the catastrophic losses of a few. BTW, many towns let private competitors in to bid on services, sometimes they win but it keeps the municipal workers lean and thinking - like the rest of us who must pay their wages as well as earn our own. Just had neighbors return from Ireland where they stayed with their upper-middle-class relatives. 52% tax rate, 2-yr wait for hip replacement, so they bought "private insurance" at a very high rate and got it done earlier (too much pain) They also complain that now with the EU, everything must "come from/go to Brussels" What a great place - so much for "free" Raise your hand if you'd like a very substantial tax hike in return for more inferior coverage than you have now. | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 80 Registered: 07-2007 |
Ill explain to you why I believe nationwide free healthcare is not a good option. What good ol Michael does not mention is that most countries that offer free healthcare is that you must wait for care, soemtimes months. You could die. He also shows you nice cushy clinics for the "affluent" . I can guarentee you that the poor in Cuba have hellhole conditions in their clinics and are not even permitted into these upscale free clinics . Free healthcare is a wonderful idea but not practical at all. At least not for those that are not considered affluent. Whats the difference if those of us who have no insurance go to an emergency room here and get pushed out or go to Cuba or another country and get kicked to the curb because we are not in the right social/political circles and we are shipped off to die in disgusting appalling free health care clinics where they could care less if you die. He most importantly convienantly forgets that those with means in these free healthcare countries (canada for instance) come here to get proper medical care because the free healthcare system cannot be trusted. the good rev | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2158 Registered: 02-2004 |
The good rev, we have gone over this in excruciating detail in the non detroit section. Your conclusions are kind of silly and easily refuted. Tell me, how can you guarantee us that the poor in Cuba have hellhole conditions in their clinics? Yes Nighterknock, these freaks would love to completely privatize the military, charge you free market prices for every drop of water you drink, and triple the price to mail a letter. They read bad romance novels in their formative years and are now against any form of government. | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 84 Registered: 07-2007 |
Its quite simple Oldfordette. Just ask any of your non-citizen friends that have and are allowed to go to cuba what its really like. If they have been. You could also ask all those cubans that escaped that wonderful place to come to this hell on earth in order for America to abuse them . Or, ask a Canadian or actually visit a health clinic in Canada. Just make sure you go to the poorer clinics in like Niagra Falls which is pretty ghetto. Im sure there are worse but my travels north are limited. Free healthcare is not good for anyone but the affluent and connected. It makes no sense to tax hardworking people in order to pay for this nonsense when hospitals must take in patients no questions asked and if they refuse, well now thats a heck of a lawsuit isn't it? Exactly how much poorer would you like America's working class to get? You don't actually believe that well off people would be in the same %50 - 60 tax bracket as us working class suckers do you? My opinion is that the conclusion of free healthcare here is the true silly notion when free healthcare is already in place here. the good rev | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2159 Registered: 02-2004 |
I know quite a few people who have been to Cuba. I have also met Cuban-Americans, who very understandably hate Castro. They all agree that a country that calls itself the bastion of freedom yet allows people to choose between heart medicine and rent is having a crisis. I know a lot of Canadians, they wish their government would quit underfunding their healthcare system. They are scared to death they will left with health care like the United States, which is to say no health care at all. Free healthcare here? What brand of crack are you smoking? | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 85 Registered: 07-2007 |
What is it with you people on this forum and putting people down? Instead of having a real, constructive conversation you people delve into name calling and insults. Does this make you feel good?? The crack pipe remark was uncalled for. It really would be nice if you people could refrain from the name calling and put downs but I guess that might be asking too much. good day the good rev | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 656 Registered: 08-2004 |
Says someone whose own moniker is putting down someone. I guess it would be asking too much for you to change it, Mr. Rogers? Thought so. (Message edited by Islandman on July 11, 2007) | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 88 Registered: 07-2007 |
such a sad shame the good observant rev | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 226 Registered: 05-2006 |
Revaldullton, Ask foreign friends about their health care experience? My wife is German and is pressuring me everyday to move back to Germany because she is scared to death that we might end up with no health insurance and she hates the health insurance that we have. Have YOU talked to your foreign friends? I have spoken to Europeans of all walks of life who shake their heads at the sorry state of health care in the US. Are we better than Cuba? Even if that is true, lets compare what we spend on health care vs what the Cuban spend. Also, have we sunk so low as a country that we are now comparing ourselves to Cuba and India? I think if we want to call ourselves "the greatest nation on earth" that we should be comparing ourselves to France, Germany, Sweden and other developed countries. Canada may have some problems with their health care system (although many Canadians would dispute that). They still spend less on it than we do. If the government raises funding for health care to the level that Americans pay per capita, then their health care will beat ours by a long shot again. It seems that the neocons who are on this site only watched the part about Cuba and Canada and missed the part about England and France. What can you say about the European systems? (crickets) Revaldullton, This is a rough crowd. Putting people down seems to be an art form here. I was also surprised at the beginning - now I give as good as I get. I find the most offensive posters to be on your side of the fence BTW (The "I've got mine" neocons) | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 89 Registered: 07-2007 |
Putting people down here is an art form. Especially for this so-called liberal site. I also see that if you disagree with these people on here they will gang up on you and make multiple reports to the administrator and have your acct terminated. Now thats liberal for you. Im just going to ignore the foolish crap that flies out of a few of these peoples mouthes. the good rev | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2161 Registered: 02-2004 |
the good rev stomps his little foot. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 2036 Registered: 11-2005 |
quote: I find that hard to believe since Karl, Craigd and pals are still around. | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 92 Registered: 07-2007 |
quote:I find that hard to believe since Karl, Craigd and pals are still around. I dont. But whatever, no biggie. the good rev | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 1068 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Was this the "putting people down" you were talking about? Taking a jab at someone losing their job, taunting them, and calling them names in one post would fit that description. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4677 Registered: 10-2003 |
^^^^Yeah, that's pretty shitty thing to say right there. It shows the true colors of people. Just another example of "I got mine" going down. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8622 Registered: 09-2005 |
Oh, the humanity! | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1636 Registered: 01-2004 |
I havent seen this film yet - can somebody who has seen it tell me how Moore ties the whole thing together with Flint Michigan ? Every movie Ive seen by him seems to have the theories put forth all lead back to Flint. Im not even sure if I can watch this one, the health care scandal is such a crying shame. Health care and insurance are cited as the root cause for almost EVERY massive layoff - from auto factories to public schools. Profit free medical care now. Kill the insurance industry before its too late. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1637 Registered: 01-2004 |
"Sooooo much misinformation here, where to start." Start by watching the movie you are talking about. typical 'con | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8623 Registered: 09-2005 |
Mauser, if you read the thread you'd know (by reading) that I saw the movie, I've been in the healthcare field for a few years, and that I'm qualified to comment on the misinformation in it. Should I say "typical left loon"?? There was no mention of Flint - but plenty about Canada, and somethings about Detroit. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1647 Registered: 01-2004 |
K- my bad. Its hard to wade through all the backbiting bilge on some of the threads you participate in. Stop referring to me as "left" or "lib" though, thats asinine. The idea that when somebody disagrees with you or thinks you arent really that bright, immediately makes them a "liberal" is self centered and willfully ignorant. I only refer to you as a " 'con " because you adore your divisive labels so much. You should stick to "typical loon" and just save the "lib" for people who actually fit the description. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1648 Registered: 01-2004 |
Tho it makes perfect sense now that Karl works in the health care industry. His sensitivities on this board match my experiences with the health care system as far as lack of humane treatment or compassion. Health care people can easily turn into cold ass robots, much like police. I believe working with the public in certain capacities tends to diminish a persons humanity. Its too easy to lose part of your soul when you treat humans like chairs all day. | ||
Civilprotectionunit4346 Member Username: Civilprotectionunit4346 Post Number: 178 Registered: 06-2007 |
I love the cost of Prescription drugs here and getting raped on the prices... Damn drug companies here are a monopoly | ||
Rasputin Member Username: Rasputin Post Number: 3795 Registered: 10-2003 |
Try this on for size: quote:Kudos to Moore for his expose'. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1650 Registered: 01-2004 |
The Mad Monk ! Long time no see. HesBack-atcha. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1651 Registered: 01-2004 |
"When Moore speaks of infant mortality, this country does far more to keep kids with problems alive" Compare Detroits infant mortality rate to those in Africa, and then come back and say that. Health care is a class based luxury here. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8635 Registered: 09-2005 |
Mauser - is that with or without Detroit's staggering # of abortions stirred into the mix? 58% of African American pregnancies are terminated via abortion. Sounds like life itself is a luxury for the majority of African Americans, no thanks to 58% of moms. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1654 Registered: 01-2004 |
I said nothing of abortion - stay focused. Its a class issue, not racial. |
