  Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 240 Registered: 05-2004 |
Stephen Henderson in Friday's Free Press admonished Democratic candidates for President who skirted what Blacks (and Detroit residents)need to hear. He mentioned "its past time to take the reins and steer ourselves toward a future of more consistent responsibility and achievement." On violence and values he said the Democrats didn't talk about that "..there are no white people killing young blacks in cities like Detroit, it's other black kids, killing over drugs, or shoes or even untoward stares. If you want to stop the body count, start teaching your kids the value of settling their differences peacefully." Guys like Bill Cosby have tried to bring this message home but it hasn't resonated enough. What's your take on this issue? | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 1259 Registered: 01-2004 |
Preaching to the choir | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 437 Registered: 04-2006 |
agreed. although i need to argue the way it is phrased. yes, people and cultures need to take the reins and "pick them selves up by their boot straps," or whatever... but you can hardly expect a city to fix itself when most of what has happened was not self imposed, but rather the result of both federal policy and auto company execs... desperate people will do desperate things... a "moral" detroit would be slightly better, but still an uneducated welfare city... | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 9557 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Bullshit. | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 342 Registered: 01-2004 |
True, there are very few black businesses, but the way to improve that is not to force non-blacks who want to do business in the city to have black partners, or hire black construction companies. This discourages businesses too and its not because they don’t want to hire black firms, it is just often the case they are overcharged by these firms who know they are required to hire them because of these restrictions the city puts on them. I know of a few developers in Chicago who have looked into going in to Detroit and they said that city hall makes too many requests that it is not worth the hassle most of the time. Now, I know this does not happen all the time, but these are the things race baiters like Barbara Rose Collins and JoAnne Watson are always whining about and making a big deal out of nothing….and yes, it discourages business. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 4405 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Jt1 I am in agreeance with you....but then again everyone seems to need a boogie man to make them feel better about their pasts... | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 327 Registered: 04-2006 |
My take on it is it is an urban problem. How do you properly raise kids when you are a kid yourself? By "you" I'm refering to the mother because there's almost no such thing as the dad. It doesn't really have anything to do with morale to an extent. Where this type of lifestyle occurs, the system is failed from conception. Morale takes a back seat to survival...survival of the fittest. Since lifestyle "fitness" doesn't exist, survival is achieved by any means possible. The limited resources are minimal and the people living in those conditions are a product of that. I can't really see how it is a matter of pulling one's self up by their boot straps when there are no boot straps to pull up in the first place. Political leaders can talk about the issues all they want and use motivation tactics about what "needs" to be done. But without action from both parties and American society, it's like telling the poor people to go spread their wings and fly an airplane without any instruction on how to do so. Listening to rap lyrics all day doesn't help society's most vulnerable either. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8689 Registered: 09-2005 |
stylin says: "...everyone seems to need a boogie man to make them feel better about their pasts..." While completely ignoring the real problem. | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 10 Registered: 07-2007 |
I wonder whether or not if during the era of prohibition there were people having these same discussions about levels of violence emanating from poor white “ethnics” in the ghettos of America. When you have high economic demand for controlled or illegal substances, the reaction will nearly always produce criminality and violence as mostly poor people will see it as a means of escaping their economic condition. The highest rates of violence in America before the proliferation of heroin, cocaine and its derivatives were during the era of prohibition. The rate of violence for the country, at the peak of prohibition, ranks with the rates in the 70's (Heroin), 80’s and early 90’s (crack) which were very violent. When prohibition was repealed, the rates of violence radically dropped. So in my mind there is no question that there is a direct link between market demand for controlled substances and the levels of violence in society. Today, the retail outlet for heroin and cocaine are the black communities all across America. However, the wholesalers and producers are not the black community, but somehow poor black communities have become ground zero retail centers and the battle ground for the mythical “War on Drugs”, which manifest as a war against black people. The war on drugs seems concentrated at the retail level, but that is a digression on my part. In conclusion, I am not necessarily arguing for or against the legalization of certain drugs, but rather I am making the argument that the level of violence in black urban areas is the resultant of capitalistic free market forces that are demanding controlled or illegal substances. The result of such artificial regulation of free market forces is criminality and that criminality goal is profit (surpise surprise....just like most enterprises) and profit is earned or maintained via violence to grab or protect market share. A culture of violence then evolves in these communities as violence demonstrated becomes violence emulated as a expected behavior in response to certain situations. I think so many people give Detroit and “black people” a bad rap. Its almost as if some people want to portray violence and certain behaviorisms as GENETIC, when they divorce all the external factors that have had an influence on these behaviorisms. (Message edited by accraghana on July 13, 2007) | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 2055 Registered: 11-2005 |
quote: They also act like law abiding black people or black people trying to help themselves don't exist.(Except for Bill Cosby. He seems to be popular with the righties here.) I posted this link on the Non-D board recently and it got completely ignored: http://www.oprah.com/tows/past shows/200705/tows_past_2007053 1.jhtml | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1138 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Its almost as if some people want to portray violence and certain behaviorisms as GENETIC, when they divorce all the external factors that have had an influence on these behaviorisms." It isn't almost... that IS what they're trying to portray. "Today, the retail outlet for heroin and cocaine are the black communities all across America. However, the wholesalers and producers are not the black community, but someone poor black communities have become ground zero retail centers and the battle ground for the mythical “War on Drugs”, which manifest as a war against black people. The war on drugs seems concentrated at the retail level, but that is a digression on my part. " This is really the heart of the issue. The black community isn't how illegal weapons or illegal drugs are imported into this country. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2482 Registered: 07-2004 |
I agree with jt1 regarding coleman young_ accraghana you raise an interesting point or two however what is different now is the almost now generational reliance on governmental agencies be it medicaid or food stamps etc, etc, with it comes an entitlement mentality which does not lend itself to much of a self help way of doing things. And I certainly don't believe it is a inner city dynamic; I see lots of entitlement fucks here in A2 at UM. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8697 Registered: 09-2005 |
Comon, Pam - Accraghana simply said: "Today, the retail outlet for heroin and cocaine are the black communities all across America." Perhaps that could be clarified: Black ghettos all across America? No one is ignoring anything, but if we keep trying to dilute a serious problem nothing will be done/learned. For some reason(s) folks make wrong choices. In this case, certain folks are proving that point. Not all of 'em, but certain of 'em, and if this is to be believed, this retail market is dominated by certain blacks - not all blacks. And Cosby's message is directed in that manner. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1140 Registered: 04-2006 |
>Citylover It's not entitlement, it's a hopelessness syndrome. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 741 Registered: 04-2007 |
Crime in most largely black urban areas is endemic. But some areas seem to be working through this. Harlem in NY for example. While still not the safest place in NYC, it has fast become an attractive place to live. And Brooklyn? Nobody can afford it anymore it's so desirable. The near south side, near west side of Chicago, and Hyde park, are booming. The catalyst seems to be availability of good jobs and aggressive government. People get jobs in those cities and then need a place to live. Mayor Daly makes sure that the city is clean and that transit works. If not, then he will be out. Guiliani and Bratton stopped the cities slide into criminality and Bloomberg has continued in that direction as well as improving city services and finances. So, Detroit needs to make itself attractive to corporations. Then it needs to make damn sure that perpetrators of quality of life crimes are arrested and prosecuted to the fullest. It has worked before and it can work again. Does the Detroit electorate have the will to elect people who will do these things? IMHO, It doesn't appear to be so. A lot of Detroit's energy still seems to be wasted on blaming the suburbs and white flight for its problems. | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 11 Registered: 07-2007 |
I think that it is important to note, when we pass judgment about the choices people make, that not everyone faces similar array of visible or viable options and opportunities which are determinants of CHOICE. Possibility is NOT probability. Many things that are theoretically possible are not highly probable for many, based upon environment and conditions that an entity exists within. When people pass judgment they are mostly judging people and holding them up against possibilities as defined and projected through the prism of their own lives. One individual’s world is not a microcosm of another individual’s world to the degree that he or she can project and past judgment. Just because you are I was able to do something does not mean that the same conditions that allowed for us to do it are ripe with another in degree or kind to allow them to make the same choice. The natural human consequence of being denied something that others have been allowed is the sense that they are ENTITLED to what others having in the principle of fairness. If you oppress a people for over 300 years – as a natural human consequence many are going to feel that they have been denied something and hence owed something and hence entitled to something. I think that such is human and SHOULD be understood as symptomatic of the original sin or transgression and not something “organic” to being “black” or something created from “liberalism”. Liberalism infected the poor and black people were disproportionately poor as a result of racism. (Message edited by accraghana on July 13, 2007) | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 743 Registered: 04-2007 |
You are correct about the impact of history on current population AG. The impression I get from most people when discussing this topic is this- They are aware of the historical oppression; They often think we as a nation have been discussing this historical impact since the 1960s; They usually think that the time for talk is over and we should be seeing some progress; they don't understand why conditions in many areas are actually getting worse rather than better. I don't think that most people take this as genetic. They simply don't understand the dynamic that drives a young man to crime when in fact there are jobs available. Jobs in fact that are often being filled by illegal immigrants because American youths won't take them. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 243 Registered: 05-2004 |
Unless Detroit residents take responsibility for their actions no one else will respect them. Racism, slavery etc are great excuses but the urban slide can only stop when enough folks say, "Enough is enough". Education and opportunities can help but where is the inner strength going to come from if there aren't examples in the home? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 9561 Registered: 10-2003 |
But we all know that there is no effects from people flight, economic flight, business flight, etc. I agree that people need to take responsibility for themselves, their children and their community. I will add however that it is complete and utter non-sense that the people and businesses that fled believe they shoulder no blame for the state of the city. How about I tell you that you and your wife(if your married) buy a huge house based upon both your incomes. you decide to quit your job (leave) and your house goes downhill because you can't keep up with maintenance, bills, etc but you can't sell. Using your rationale it would be entirely your wife's fault for not making more money but no blame lies on you for quitting your job. The people in the city need to take responsibility but laying blame solely at their feet is non-sense. I assume that you see the articles in the papers when thousands show up for job fairs for a minimum number of jobs. Are people chosing to have no options or are they dealing with a situation that we as a region created. Until people like you realize that the growth, politics and mentality of the region are all part of the problem we will never advance. | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 12 Registered: 07-2007 |
I don’t know who would be arguing that things have gotten worse in regards to black people. We are certainly not at the peak levels of homicides in the black community. We are certainly not at the peak level of poverty in the black community. We are certainly not at the peak levels of unemployment in the black community. I think we are too much of a “headline” nation in which our understanding or the lack there of, is a product of the media. There is really no “case study” to hold the black population up against to suggest where we SHOULD be based upon others who had a similar situation in degree and or kind as blacks, who are still residing in the land of their oppression with the same demographic entity which oppressed them. What is the natural HUMAN time for recovery from over 3 centuries of racial oppression? Certainly blacks have made progress, but people seem to be arguing that the progress is not what it should be from the perspective of what blacks themselves are not doing. The assumption seems to be that our recovery from oppression is somehow “inferior” and not meeting expectations and hence, such expectations produce condemnation of blacks for not recovering from a situation that others inflicted upon them. I understand quite well that people, primarily white people, are tired of the issue of race and want to move on from it. Most whites that I know seem to be good people and seemed to have moved on from demonstrating overtly racist behavior. What’s going on in their subconscious, however, I am not sure is the same thing. I think most people view being seen as or labeled a racist as something to be ashamed of. Hence, I think it logical to assume that people are intelligent enough to avoid the overt comments or behaviors that would invoke the accusation or label of racism. After years of listening to what behavior and comments blacks associate with racism, it does not take much effort to simply avoid saying those things….whether one thinks it or not. What I know is that often times when I am driving…..I am not conscious of driving. I can drive certain routes subconsciously via the force of habit and repetition. Racism is the same way. Its not something that one has to be conscious of for it to exist. America has been racist for oh so long....that it can drive that route without thinking about it. However, the fact that one is not thinking about something does not mean that one is not behaving that something. (Message edited by accraghana on July 13, 2007) | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 9562 Registered: 10-2003 |
Great post accra - There is also the topic of instituational racism that people who are not racist don't want to acknowledge. People choose to ignore the fact that black folks are still steered to or away from certain neighborhoods, do not get the same interest rates as their white counterparts, get longer jail terms for equivalent crimes than their white counterparts, etc. I am not saying that this happens in all or most cases but it certainly still happens and entirely too many people in this country choose to ignore it or do not believe that it happens. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8701 Registered: 09-2005 |
Let's forget "color" for the moment. If a person doesn't feel safe, common sense dictates that they will leave and perhaps never come back. And I don't blame 'em in the least. Some cities have spoken out against crackdowns on crime, using race as one of many excuses. Again, if folks don't feel safe, or that something significant is being done to restore safety, they leave. After safety, enforcing zoning and improving education are the keys. If you can't get these basics, nothing else matters and the burbs will continue to thrive, perhaps for the wrong reasons, but it is a fact of life. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1816 Registered: 03-2006 |
The Jews are the most hated group of people on the earth today and millions of them were slaughtered within the last generation. Yet they have prospered for the most part. Why do you think that is? Maybe because they didn't allow themselves to be defined by their "oppressors" and did not look to them for their salvation? If certain people are going to continue with the policy of deriving what they have from making the "majority" feel guilty enough to get more government programs or reparations or whatever, then prosperity will not come to that community any time soon. The fact is that most "white people" today never oppressed anyone, the resentment of some minorities towards them is mis-directed and only makes matters worse. There are two things that the inner city folks could do within their community that would help greatly. 1 - Stop having kids you don't want and have no means to care for,and 2 - stay in school. These 2 factors are at the root of nearly every social problem in poor communities, regardless of race. These problems are not caused by racism and they fall within the control of the community to address them. The 70% rate of children born out of wedlock and the over 50% illiteracy rate in the city pretty much guarantees a life of poverty and hopelessness. quote: Those neighborhoods being the suburbs of Detroit that have thousands of blacks residents that once lived in Detroit? Please, nobody is stopping blacks from living anywhere they want. If you don't like where a realtor takes you, there are a hundred more that will show you any house you want. Most realtors want to sell homes and get their commission, they are not interested in social engineering. The fact that someone is shown houses in areas where blacks live is not proof of racism anyway. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1605 Registered: 06-2006 |
"It's not entitlement, it's a hopelessness syndrome." It's entitlement to an extent...one need only look to the quotes in the article last week about the grocery store closings... all these people are running expressing their outrage that the all-powerful "they" took our grocery stores away, when in fact the ones responsible for demise of the grocery stores are the very ones complaining... They don't see grocery stores as a profit-making business that they need to support by spending money there and not stealing from them...they see grocery stories as a RIGHT that "they" took away... | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 13 Registered: 07-2007 |
My last comment on this topic for a while: Ones feeling of “safety” is often the result of SPECULATION. Many times, or I dare say most times, people don’t feel safe because they have personally been victimized, but rather from the speculation that the probability of them being victimized has increased. The problem for black people is this. A growing percentage black population increases the SPECULATION of crime and other safety issues such as the safety of ones home equity. Hence, this speculation often creates a self fulfilling prophecy by speculators behaving in a way, in response to the speculation, which makes the speculation or prophecy come true. As an example, when in the past whites speculated that blacks entering a community would drive down property values. So whites would put their homes up for sale to avoid the loss of equity from blacks making the community of less value. Hence, the behavior of the white homeowners drove down prices which made it more affordable for many blacks who then would move in. The same is true for crime, as the middle class abandon communities from the fear of crime…..property values depress and poor people occupy communities and incidence of crime is higher among the poor than the middle class. So there is a race and class component in why the City of Detroit is the way it is today. By the way....Jews are not living in the lands of their oppression or with their oppressors. Jews generally imigrated away from their oppresors by finding a more "Just" land. Its differnt when one is or has been oppressed by the supposedly "Most Just" land called America. Where does one then immigrate to? (Message edited by accraghana on July 13, 2007) | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1818 Registered: 03-2006 |
It is not speculation that the crime rate in Detroit is about 3 times the national average. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1086 Registered: 10-2003 |
"For some reason(s) folks make wrong choices." - Karl Because they aren't taught better. How many people making these choices like crime and drugs and having unwanted children, were raised even halfway decently? But now that they're already f*cked up in the head from the trauma of their whole youth, we say "suck it up, pull yourselves up by your bootstraps." That'd be great, but I wouldn't hold your breath. People who have grown up in really messed up homes around violence and drugs all their lives, I don't see fixing them. Maybe some. People have to be raised right to raise other people right and to contribute to society as they should. Sorry, this is a bunch of pessimism without offering any suggestions, but I just don't have any. | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 345 Registered: 01-2004 |
Accraghana: Your last quote about the Jews is a pretty shabby argument as believe it or not, there are a good number Jews back in Germany, Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe that are thriving. There is a reason why Jewish ghettos have a lack of Jews and its not because they were all pushed out of these countries, its because they found a way to rise up and make something better for themselves, albeit without any kind of “affirmative action” programs. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 745 Registered: 04-2007 |
Nice post AG. I see what you are saying and I enjoyed reading the post. I happen to live in an area that is well known for its geographical redlining. Most americans see their country as a land that is always moving forward. They really don't care much about the past, it is always about the future. This is a truth that many people overlook when discussing how non-african interpret the calls to address past racial inequities. Americans just are not good with reviewing what has already happened, sort of a "It's done why rehash it; let's move forward from here" frame of mind. You and JT make very good points about subconscious and institutional racism, which may in fact be two heads of the same hydra. And yes, people are in denial or just don't care that it occurs. The result is that it is often ignored. So, non-africans need to become more aware of the subtle racism that they live among every day if they expect african-americans to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps", because this same racism hinders people from doing just that. Whites in particular to understand their countries history more intimately. Africans need to be aware that they live in a society that does expect people to pull themselves up by their boot straps, and whether fairly or unfairly when they do not appear to be doing so it may perpetuate many racist stereotypes that we would all do well to see erased. It is thus a vicious cycle that I would love to see broken. Does this sound like a reasonable understanding on my part? If so, then how would one person make a significant difference in the awareness of the people around him or her? How would you get this message out? | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 746 Registered: 04-2007 |
Wow, now that I posted that long winded thing I see several posts have arisen in the interim. AG, it is no more "speculation" to feel unsafe in a high crime neighborhood than it is to wear your seat belt in a car. Most drives do not end in potentially fatal accidents. This is simply situational awareness and should in fact be endorsed. The best way to avoid trouble is to do just that, avoid it. The fact is that most african american neighborhoods are high crime. Don't confuse racism with common sense. PG- I know some people who might say that Muslims are the most hated today, but I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill  . | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 14 Registered: 07-2007 |
Sorry for my weakness as I intended to step away from this debate. I don’t think if one compared the crime rate of the black community in Southfield with the crime rate of the black community in Detroit one would find similar statistics. Among black people crime is really a class phenomenon and most of the crime is committed by the lower economic class. The crime in the black community comes from a very small percentage of repeat offenders. While it is true that reported crimes rates are higher among blacks, it’s a fallacy to assume that what is true for the whole is true of its parts. The crime rate among poor blacks is high, but again, even among poor blacks is a small minority of repeat offender’s types that are responsible. Yet, whites, for obvious reasons, cannot separate the whole from its parts or are not willing to try. Saying that the crime rate is higher among blacks ignores the DETAILS of the demographic groups among blacks that are more prone to criminality. Whites seem to be less concerned with the details than they are the SUMMARY – which is that blacks = Crime. That’s the SPECULATION that is erroneous and perpetuates problems. Don’t tell me that Southfield has become majority black because it has become a high crime city. Most of the crime is Southfield is committed around commercial and retail establishments by people who are not from Southfield. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 747 Registered: 04-2007 |
Are you sure that whites behave the same way when in Southfield as they do when in the C of D? Or, are you just speculating? | ||
Diehard Member Username: Diehard Post Number: 63 Registered: 03-2005 |
Bad choices? Indeed. In those downtrodden neighborhoods with no grocery stores, there are still plenty of places to buy liquor and get your nails done. That's not racist; that's where the locals choose to spend their money. I somehow find it hard to feel bad for poor folks running around the 'hood with $200 sneakers, $4,000 rims and five pounds of jewelry. That's money that could be spent on an education, fixing up a home, sending the kids to summer camp... | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8706 Registered: 09-2005 |
Excellent posts all. May I single out Michigan's statements to continue (perhaps repeat): "It is thus a vicious cycle that I would love to see broken. Does this sound like a reasonable understanding on my part? If so, then how would one person make a significant difference in the awareness of the people around him or her? How would you get this message out?" I'll say it again: Bill Cosby has been saying what Detroit needs to hear - for years. Get him to say his thing to Detroiters, and post it on YouTube. Play it in all schools/grades at least once each year. Then ask: What part of this do you disagree with? You've all said (or implied) the same thing: If it doesn't happen in the home, it ain't gonna happen - at least in great numbers. In general: There's no dads to guide the kids - and the moms all have their hands full working and doing whatever they can. A recipe for (repeated) disaster. | ||
Gibran Member Username: Gibran Post Number: 700 Registered: 02-2007 |
Michigan, I see it everyday that one person can and does make big differences...it just takes courage and thinking outside the box....the powers that be wants us to believe that individual voices don't stack up....but in reality they can when linked to others..... | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 598 Registered: 11-2006 |
Hey Gib, What are the 'linked' voices saying? I don't get it. | ||
Gibran Member Username: Gibran Post Number: 702 Registered: 02-2007 |
well there are many people out there with the same sense of humanity, that when brought together for something worth investing in become stronger...I guess in my tangent...I mean two things when we have empathy for others and find a common denominator we can make changes....In Detroit or elsewhere...Sure beats the alternatives... I guess there is so much overgeneralization on these threads about groups of people that we forget they are individual's first.. By the way it is nice to see yah posts again. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 600 Registered: 11-2006 |
Jt1 says: "I agree that people need to take responsibility for themselves, their children and their community. I will add however that it is complete and utter non-sense that the people and businesses that fled believe they shoulder no blame for the state of the city." Ok, now that you've blamed people and businesses for leaving the city what do you think those people/businees should do to turn it around? Blame solves nothing. Your first sentence was good. | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 15 Registered: 07-2007 |
Michigan- Touché. However, the fact remains that like Detroit, Southfield has gone from a predominantly white city to a predominantly black city…despite not having a high violent crime rate. So “white flight” is a speculation driven by racial perceptions and stereotypes concerning crime, property values and other, more so than it is driven by the realities of such. The same thing happens with black people, but it is class and not race that drives blacks moves away from other blacks in fear of crime and the like. Like you said clearly, whites think “Black = high crime” which is true for the whole, but not for the middle and higher class blacks. Thus, even when middle class blacks move into white communities in high percentages the simplistic and superficial analysis that “black = crime” drives whites away from blacks demographics that do not even manifest high levels of crime. White speculation does not bother with the details….and that is the racism imbedded in the speculation. | ||
Gibran Member Username: Gibran Post Number: 703 Registered: 02-2007 |
Individual responsibility is the ultimate agent of change..understanding and empathy can help people understand that they are not alone and hopeless. Then they can take risk to improve their life. You are so right "blame" is never the answer. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 601 Registered: 11-2006 |
Hey Gib, Thanks for the explanation. I dig it. I swear Gib, I was going to stay away from these type threads, and man, the ego just wouldn't let me. You know, my opinion seems to be the right one (to me). Same for everyone else. I could go on and on about what I think is right, wrong, or whatever. Sometimes I start posting a response to something and then cancel it because it really doesn't matter what I think. Everyone posting is only really able to understand what they themselves have written, because it is what they, and only they, think. All of our individual experiences lead us to our own conclusions about the world and we can't change the way another thinks because their experience is different. Anyhoo, still reading and enjoying the posts. Haven't been to Petra yet. Had a chance a couple of weeks ago, then my friend changed her plan and it fell through. Dang. | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 16 Registered: 07-2007 |
On one hand a lot of conservative type people say that blame solves nothing. Then on the other hand they spend much effort blaming many problems on liberalism and individuals. If blame is not good for the goose then blame should not be good for the gander. That said, I don’t like the use of such non-intellectual terms. I prefer the law of causality, which is the law of cause and effect or that all actions produce reactions. Blame is an emotionally laden term and emotions really have no place in intellectual discussions. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1091 Registered: 10-2003 |
"I'll say it again: Bill Cosby has been saying what Detroit needs to hear - for years. Get him to say his thing to Detroiters, and post it on YouTube. Play it in all schools/grades at least once each year." And there needs to be more than just Bill Cosby saying it. How about some of these sports stars everybody seems to look up to so much for some reason. How about they consider earning some of those millions they are making for contributing very little to society and speak out. | ||
Gibran Member Username: Gibran Post Number: 706 Registered: 02-2007 |
Actually Kathy your voice has always been of compromise and humanity...I do know the feeling...I started getting way to involved and passionate about things on these threads...but in reality you never know when something we say could change a heart or make a difference... But really I have seen some compromise..when people find their voices...Hope you make therr...the food is great...I was craving a trip to Jasper last weekend , but had to get some work done...have a good one...nice to see yah. (Message edited by gibran on July 13, 2007) | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4823 Registered: 08-2004 |
The use of Jews in this discussion is a rather weak analogy to use in this discussion. Throughout the Middle Ages Christians were forbidden (usury laws) to make a profit on money lending. The Jews, as being non-Christian had no such handicap, and were frequently the bankers of Europe, lending money to the nobility and royal classes (as well as being merchants) of the countries in which they lived. That was until they started to be owed too much money, and then the nobility/royal class would start a "pogrom" to banish or kill the Jews, so that their debts were wiped clean. Eventually the Jews were expelled from much of western Europe, and moved to eastern Europe, where the "pogroms" of the last century nearly wiped them out. They have always been a resilient people, and have always managed to use their business acumen (handed down from generation to generation) to pull up their bootstraps and find business opportunities to flourish elsewhere. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1092 Registered: 10-2003 |
It is forbidden in Islam to make money off of money as well. Interest is not allowed. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 603 Registered: 11-2006 |
"I'll say it again: Bill Cosby has been saying what Detroit needs to hear - for years. Get him to say his thing to Detroiters, and post it on YouTube. Play it in all schools/grades at least once each year." Johnlodge says: "And there needs to be more than just Bill Cosby saying it. How about some of these sports stars everybody seems to look up to so much for some reason. How about they consider earning some of those millions they are making for contributing very little to society and speak out." ITA! Hadn't even thought about it. Are the sports stars afraid of alienating their fans? I bet they are. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 244 Registered: 05-2004 |
Maybe they just don't want to be bothered. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 577 Registered: 07-2006 |
I've really been impressed by some of the things said on this thread, and several things have even made me look at my own actions differently. I found Accraghana's comment about driving subconsciously particularly jarring, because I have realized myself that I am guilty of that too, and have already been working on changing that. I do have to suggest a change to Michigan's comment above: quote:This is certainly NOT something that only non-africans need to become more aware of. All people - white, black, asian, arab, whatever - are well aware of the racism that is directed towards them. It's the racism in their own words, thoughts, and actions that they are often unaware of, regardless of the race of the person in question. ALL people are capable of racism, and most are guilty of it to some extent. (Including myself. I readily - but NOT proudly - admit that) Back to the point, there is no need to limit that to 'non-africans' - all races need to do some looking in the mirror. | ||
Blksoul_x Member Username: Blksoul_x Post Number: 22 Registered: 06-2007 |
Cosby the rhetorical 'gun slinger'!__blasting and raining down fire on the deviance and pathology upon poor Brothas' and Sistas' for thier lack of culture! MY GOD!, the white media and the white common must be loving this! I can hear them now whispering, I told you they are not as human as us. The 'Aristotle concept' of a 'natural slave' is in full effect...They dun' got a good ole 'nigra' to 'fess-up'!__go figure! blksoul_atcha! (Message edited by blksoul_x on July 13, 2007) | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8710 Registered: 09-2005 |
Blksoul doesn't sound any different than those who gathered 40 years ago this month at 12th St & Clairmont and burned this beautiful city down. Most AA households don't have fathers. Then a voice of reason (a famous AA male, no less) like Bill Cosby comes along, but it appears most AA's don't want to hear it. So where is the manhood in the AA community? Where is the example for AA boys to become AA men who have jobs, are responsible & honest, earn a living, provide for their families, purchase, maintain and improve their homes, etc? Or do you prefer your legacy to be "Papa Was A Rollin' Stone"? (and all he left us was a loan....) Why should others care when Detroit, New Orleans, Milwaukee, Watts, NJ - the AA communities look identical - whites flee, businesses flee, the whining starts. The whites I knew in Detroit stayed and stayed and stayed - long after the riots - until crime was on their doorstep and they were indeed unsafe as crime heretofore unseen arrived before their eyes. AA neighbors? No problem. Crime? No longer safe? Big problem. Only then did they give their homes away and flee to the burbs. Get real. Do you want what little is left to slip thru your fingers - first and foremost your children? When idiots like Blksoul blather their dangerous jive, shout them out of the room - and out of the neighborhood. Theirs is a message of death for your families - not to mention your neighborhods, schools, and property values. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1823 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: No, actually it is a good analogy. Even though the history of certain minorities may differ, the point is that a group of people that is despised and oppressed can flourish using their ingenuity and determination. A fact you have admitted in your otherwise stereotypical portrayal of Jews as bankers and merchants which I find vaguely offensive. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 140 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Even though the history of certain minorities may differ, the point is that a group of people that is despised and oppressed can flourish using their ingenuity and determination" Don't forget the Billions in aid we afford them every year. Comparing that situation to the plight of the inner city minorities is absurd. Finger-pointing with an "see what they did?" Very weak and skewed analogy. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4825 Registered: 08-2004 |
Perfectgentleman, then perhaps you should take a college level medieval European history course! Topics like this were taught when I got my minor in History at the University of Detroit. And it sure is ironic hearing you use the term "vaguely offensive", after all things you post in Non-Detroit Issues about people who don't espouse your political thinking... Perhaps you could be less vague and zero in on what I said that was vaguely offensive? Should I have been more "politically correct"? (Message edited by Gistok on July 13, 2007) | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 17 Registered: 07-2007 |
Another thing about Detroit is this: Detroit as a city, a MAJOR CITY, is often juxtaposed against other cities…that are predominately or much more white than is Detroit. When people lament about how much the city of Detroit sucks or compares poorly to many other places it really not fair. Why? The reason being that the state of black America is, as a general rule, is much worse shape than the state of white America…and it ALWAYS has been. So when you compare Detroit to most major cities in America, most of which have much larger percentage white populations than Detroit…. what is reflected is really the discrepancies between blacks and white in America. Every major metropolitan area has a “Detroit” embedded somewhere in the metropolis. Detroit could be a metaphor for “primary contiguous concentrations of blacks”. In Southeastern Michigan the primary contiguous concentration of blacks just so happens to consume the vast majority of the geographical city limits of Detroit, in a city like Grand Rapids, where I used to live also, its “Detroit” is the near Southeast side. In Milwaukee and Minneapolis it’s the North Sides. In Chicago are the South and West sides. If you take any of this primary black concentration and make a city out of them you would find very similar conditions and statistics as Detroit. Lets face it, if people think Detroit sucks, then they are essentially saying that the general state of black America sucks, because that is what Detroit represents more than anything else. The national rate of black poverty in this country is around 25%, so is it a shocker that a city that is nearly 90% black has a poverty rate of about 30%? Detroit has the highest or second highest rate of poverty for major cities….and why should that be a surprise when Detroit is the blackest major city in America and the poverty rate for blacks in America are the highest of all groups with the probable exception of Native Americans? There is nothing unusual about the blacks in Detroit. What’s unusual is that such a large city in America is nearly all black. When black people who have grown up in black urban areas of other major cities come to Detroit…they are not shocked by crime, poverty and conditions of black people because they seen it where they come from. The people who are shocked are usually white people who come to a city expecting more “whiter” realities and standards of living that are found in most cities but are lacking in Detroit proper. Thus, instead of such people walking away thinking…. wow…black people in America really face some challenges. Instead it because an indictment against Detroit….as if this geographic location caused the problems of the blacks in this city. Not so, because these same conditions for blacks exist in Chicago, Gary, Milwaukee, Cleveland, LA, Philadelphia, New York, Flint, Saginaw, Grand Rapids, Benton Harbor and all the others. Detroit did not put blacks in hard times…. America put blacks in hard times –at least relative to white America. I tried to walk away from this discussion as I am more interested in topics conscerning economics, physics and science. These type of discussions are so emotional and people are so intrenched in their beliefs that it really makes the debates worthless. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1824 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: Billions of aid is pouring into the inner cities every year as well and has been for decades. Not to mention that Jews are all over the world, not just in Israel. And even though I never compared the inner city to Israel, the Jews there in fact have it worse. They are surrounded by numerous countries filled with 10's of millions of people who want them dead. Throughout all of this they have built a vibrant economy and a very good educational system with significant contributions to the fields of science and technology. They have been attacked constantly for decades. There is renewed antisemitism in Europe, within the UN and even here in the states. Sadly even prominent black leaders like Farrakhan, Jackson and Sharpton have demonized them as well. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1033 Registered: 04-2005 |
quote: we've all seen the difficulty involved in finding an alzheimer's patient that wanders off, or a fisherman reported missing. concentrated efforts by coordinated masses to find compromised people with limited resources and diminished capacities in isolated regions is often difficult. now, consider the effort involved in locating trained, prepared, and equipped smugglers who have an untold expanse of air, ocean, and wilderness at their disposal. then, think about the neighborhoods where dealers shout, whistle, and flag down motorists to deal drugs. the sheer concentration of street-level dealers on corner blocks, compared with international drug runners that work in practically limitless space, dictates that more street-level dealers will be pinched than your so-called "wholesalers and producers." (and, by the way...whites, hispanics, and other races deal dope on the streets and get busted too.) | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 609 Registered: 11-2006 |
So, why are african american people making excuses and not helping the problem? | ||
Blksoul_x Member Username: Blksoul_x Post Number: 24 Registered: 06-2007 |
'kkk' stated quote: We all know there is 'poison in the cookies'! Then too, the state of denial we live in or the 'kkknighted states of amnesia' truly amazes me! How soon we forget the fundamental structure of racism__Break a brothas' leg and then complain that he limps! In other-words, the effects of slavery still exist in these contemporary times. The healing from the extreme trauma Blacks experienced nor did the trauma's themselves end with the sensation of slavery....so then, what we know that followed slavery was basically more slavery__just in a different type, we had black code, sun down laws, exclusionary acts, convict leasing, which was the beginning of over representation in the criminal system followed by Jim Crow laws, When we began to look at that legacy of extreme trauma, we are talking about HOSTILITY which follows us now more than ever, the syndrome itself comes into play as we are ADAPTING to surviving in a hostile enviroment. This is a contemporary behavior that has been passed along intra-culturally__so then the question is how and where did it come from, what is its idolatry. How does it manifest itself with our people. Clearly it's not a pathology, that Cosby and the Afristocracy claims, if it was we would have not survived, if we are looking at pure pathology. What we are looking at is ADAPTATION, and that is unquestioned ADAPTATION, meaning that Africans in 'amerikkka' have swallowed whole what we call 'amerikkkan' culture....and that's what we can no longer do. Because there is 'poison in the cookies'. It's been a rape of our psychic, the same manifestation a women have with rape. The event is over but the scares you will carry for life. blksoul-atcha! | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 610 Registered: 11-2006 |
and another thing: I would call the police on my WHITE neighbors if they were doing something illegal. I am in charge of my surroundings. That is what I am here to do. It doesn't matter if I'm black or white or anything else. What matters is my peace of mind. Why does everything here have to come down to "the white man keeping the black man down"? Just makes me sick. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1034 Registered: 04-2005 |
quote: poverty is not an automatic gateway to crime. plenty of communities survived world war i, the depression, and world war ii - while enduring economic hardship and ethnic persecution - without resorting to crime. morals guided these communities to support one another as people, and rise as one. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8712 Registered: 09-2005 |
Blksoul, do me a favor. Blather all you want to me. But when it comes to impressionable African American children, please: Shut up. Instead, let tiger Woods, Oprah Winfrey, Walter Williams, Clarence Thomas, Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Bill Cosby and others speak to them. For whatever reason, you are crippled - apparently permanently so - and you think you must cripple others also. Let others walk and make their own choices, OK? Let them hear of others trials, challenges, and how they overcame them. I honestly belive that MLK would be ashamed of you. 40 years after his death, your words sound like someone 40 years before his death. I would keep you away from AA kids under 18 as your words seem to me to be a cancer. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 615 Registered: 11-2006 |
Oh, SNAP! | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 18 Registered: 07-2007 |
One of the most glaring differences and problems with comparing blacks and Jews situation is that Judaism is not a race but a religion. The Jews that left the Middle East thousands of years ago and immersed into Europe are essentially European as a result of intermarriage and the like over such a long time frame. Many Europeans converted to Judaism as well. Thus, Jews are not a “Race” that visibly “Stands out”. In order for discrimination to be most effective it requires a means of assured identification. I am sure that many Jewish people did not divulge of demonstrate their religion out in the open knowing that they would face persecution or discrimination from gentiles. I mean…. if a Jewish person was wealthy as a result of business from gentiles, there obviously was not much discrimination from the gentiles or they would not do business with the Jewish person to make them rich. That is how it was for blacks in America back in the day. There is now way that white people were going to give a black business, say in 1930 South, enough patronage for blacks to become wealthy and rise to a higher social status than whites. Heck, the instances in the South were blacks started to appear to wealthy, like the case of the “black Wall Street” in Tulsa Oklahoma, whites burned the place down in jealousy. The thing about Jewish people is that you do not know that they are Jewish unless they MAKE THE CHOICE to demonstrate it. For black people there is no choice involved. The fact that we are black is ALWAYS on display and hence makes us easily identifiable. Moreover, there was a phenomenon among blacks called “passing”. That existed when a person who was about 1/8th black and who looked white could pass as all white. Back in the days there was the one-drop rule that implied if a person had one drop of black blood they were deemed “black” because white meant purity. These blacks that could pass had much higher economic stature than blacks because whites could not identify them to discriminate against them. I imagine the same thing works for Jews. What gentiles did not know could not be used to hurt the Jews. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 245 Registered: 05-2004 |
Getting off base here. We're talking about taking responsibility not making excuses. | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 19 Registered: 07-2007 |
The mind takes in and stores subconsciously many sensory inputs over a lifetime. The problem for black people is the bombardment upon their subconscious of negative sensory input about black people. Even little girls choose white dolls over black dolls because by that age they have already received enough sensory input to lead them to conclude that white equal superior and black equals inferior. Think about it. What do black people see? Blacks see Africa, their roots, in poverty and turmoil from the news. The pictures of starving kids are nearly always black. When crime appears in the media it has a largely black face. When you travel through cities the nice looking areas are white and the bad looking areas are black. The “bad” part of town is always “black”. We have the facts of the history of our enslavement. We have people constantly talking about us in terms like “irresponsible”, “Bad Choice makers”, and “violent”. We don’t ever hear or read about any glorious history of black people and black civilization. It’s not people like BlackSoul that is a problem. The problem is THE REALITY of what has transpired for black people the last 500 year on this planet. Every action creates a reaction and the reaction to slavery, colonization and domination has indeed created a negative reaction among black peoples the world over. BlackSoul is right. You cannot break a peoples leg and then complain that they walk with a limp and are not keeping up in the race of life. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1825 Registered: 03-2006 |
Millions of black people have prospered in this country. They did so by doing what most successful people do, staying in school, staying away from drugs and crime, and not having kids before they are able to take care of them. Those that do the opposite will be in poverty, just like any other group of people. Their destiny is in their own hands. The problem with the message of Accraghana and BlackSoul it is defeatist and leads to a dead end of hopelessness. I guess it is human nature for some people to blame external factors for their plight and not accept responsibility for their own bad decisions. The lack of positive role models in the inner city is a problem for sure. Kids with no father in the home is another. These 2 factors can be addressed but it must come from within that community. The fact is that white people WANT the black community to succeed as much as blacks do. Nobody likes seeing folks struggling, cities dying or high crime rates that jeopardize the entire area. As one of those evil white Christian Conservative suburbanites, I would be ECSTATIC to see Detroit flourishing again, happy for the folks there and for me because we would all reap the benefit of that. I would even be willing to throw money at the problem as long it was used to reinforce positive things instead of enabling the negative. If we need a larger police force in the city, I would be willing to contribute to that, if every suburbanite threw in $100 per year even that would be alot of money. It would help protect all of our investments in the area. That seems to be priority 1. If folks feel safe they will come into the city which will help build the economy. This is what occurred in NYC and it could work here. The negative image the rest of the world has of Detroit would change. The improved economy in the city would create opportunity for the folks there and make more revenue available for schools and other infrastructure. Racism in this country exists (and always will to some extent, on ALL sides) but has no political or institutional power. These days even if a hint of it is detected public outcry and prosecutions are imminent. The era where some people were actively trying to undermine the black community out of hatred is long passed. The fact is we all lose if things don't change and 99% of us know that, the people who don't are irrelevant. quote: So you are basically saying that Jews prospered because they hid their identities? Other than a few people in Hollywood who did this years ago this is not the case. Jews are proud of their heritage and do not try to hide who they are for financial gain or for fear of discrimination. The fact that millions were killed and are persecuted to this day proves they are all too identifiable. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on July 14, 2007) | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8718 Registered: 09-2005 |
Accraghana (perhaps sometime you'll share the origin of your screen name - perhaps you're from Accra, Ghana?) you're looking at a very narrow POV. Let me help you broaden it, using your words: "Think about it. What do See how it works? Blacks don't have a corner on anything. HOWEVER - In Detroit, blacks have the corner on, and full responsibility for, everything now, and it isn't going away. The whining falls on deaf ears because frankly, everyone has their own problems to worry about, and blacks are no better or worse - but seem to do more finger pointing, and the media is always happy to have a camera and microphone waiting for the likes of black "leaders" like Al Sharpton & Jesse Jackson. Oh, sorry, they're not your leader? Then where are the leaders? You chastise others like Bill Cosby, Condi Rice, Clarence Thomas and others, then shun Jackson/Sharpton (unless they bring $$) and oh by the way we like the 'hood the way it is? There's a mixed message coming from the black community, and at the end of the day most thinking folks are going to react the same way former Detroiters have done for years - leave. And that includes blacks who become fed up with the status quo of the black communiity. | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 20 Registered: 07-2007 |
Perfect Gentlemen you speak in platitudes. You speak using the term “If” an awful lot. One could argue that “If” black people were white, then we would not have these racial discrepancies. We can “what if” all day. The intelligent endeavor follows the path of using the law of causality to hypothesize “why not”. What evolution of actions and reactions led to such a large percentage of blacks not finishing school, having children out of wedlock and so on and so forth. Hell, “if” slavery had not existed we would not even be having this debate. The issue is not “If”, the issue is “Why”. “If” is an obfuscation of “why” by people who have a problem accepting the reality of “why”. “If” the person never got sick they would have never died from the mistake made by the surgeon in the operating room. Such ignores “why” the patient died and instead obfuscates and misdirects the fault towards the person behavior that resulted in him getting sick. There was a study a few years back; the university of Chicago that showed that resume with black sounding rejected names at twice the rate of resumes with white sounding names, all other things being equal in the “sting”. When institutions and establishments are RUN and operated by white folks and some white folks are racist, why would you be so naïve to conclude that racism or discrimination does not manifest in the entity against blacks? Do you think it is EASY to recognize when you have been discriminated against? If I send in a resume or fill out a job application, get an interview and what not, but a white person get the job with less qualification than I have…how would I know that I have been discriminated against? First of all I don’t have a clue of the race of the other people being interviewed. Secondly, I don’t have a clue concerning their qualifications relative to mine. Thirdly, I will not know if they even decided to hire anyone for the position. All I will know is that I did not get the job. So your simplistic view that racism is prosecutable ignores the fact that it is not easily identifiable and if its not identifiable it will hardly be any prosecution. I think that many people simply cannot relate to what it is like to be black in America or the POWER that whites have in America. Black aspirations are filtered through whites but whites aspirations are not filtered through blacks. What I mean by that is that nearly everything a black person needs he will have to go through a white person to get it. Whether it be a job, a loan or whatever. This is because whites are the majority and dominate disproportionately the economics and politics of this nation. Blacks really have no such power or influence over the lives of whites so the idea that racism works both ways is simply bogus because blacks don’t have the power or influence to make it work both ways. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 749 Registered: 04-2007 |
Very impressed by many posts on this thread. Scott thanks for expanding my idea. I do have one observation about Jewish vs Black resilience in the face of oppression. Jews have a common social and cultural rallying and gathering point- the temple. They all gather at temple, they all celebrate holy days, their relation ship is based on something that exists outside of themselves. However, for blacks, their is no pan-population unifying edifice. Their relationship exists because of something that exists only in themselves- their skin color. There is no collective history of success and love and failure and redemption as there is for the Jews. This may seem subtle, and I am sure some will see at as an Ivory Tower concept. But it is real and it makes a tremendous difference in defining the dynamics within each population. I hope that you all have a great weekend. | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 21 Registered: 07-2007 |
Karl…. respectfully…..if any group of people had the experience that black people have had, in degree if not kind, to make it equal to what blacks experienced…..the they would be in the same situation as blacks today. To suggest that “others” have had the same experience in degree or kind and have done better is to suggest that “other” are superior and blacks languishing is simply the result of their inferiority. Are you saying that blacks are inferior and hence cannot recover from oppression like the Irish or whomever did, because genetically we are preconditioned to be lazy and irresponsible and score poorly on test? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1827 Registered: 03-2006 |
Accraghana - How do you explain the fact that millions of blacks are prospering? Or is that just the few that we whites missed in our efforts to oppress all blacks? I have been poor, turned down for loans, not been hired because some asshole didn't like me, had my resume thrown in the trash because I don't have a college degree. I have also had blacks rob me and assault members of my family and my friends. Was that racism against whites? Maybe. Do I use that as an excuse to fail? NO! Do you really think that black folks are the only ones who have been shit on, oppressed, discriminated against? GET REAL! I am getting a little tired of white people being characterized as racist's who are the cause of all problems of minorities. White people don't make others drop out of school, get involved in crime and drugs or have kids they cannot afford and don't want. Enough of the nonsense. Many of the people in the inner city never even get to the point of sending out a resume or applying for a loan because they can't read or write! I know that many folks have been programmed to think that their prosperity comes from government and that their outcome in life should be guaranteed regardless of their level of achievement or the decisions they have made. This is due to liberal programs that pander to minorities but have failed to address the root causes. It is not a question if inferiority, it is the knowledge that a person is responsible for their own destiny and in the end they must do what is necessary to succeed. It is clear that black folks have these abilities because millions have done it and continue to do so. Those are the role models that are needed in the inner city, not rappers, drug dealers, gang bangers or opportunistic race baiters like Al Sharpton. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 775 Registered: 01-2005 |
I don't have anything to meaningfully contribute to this thread (about a topic on which most people including me have strong opinions) other than to opine that the opinions articulated here are almost without exception the most intelligent I have seen about any topic on this site. Congratulations to you all. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8725 Registered: 09-2005 |
Accraghana said: "There was a study a few years back; the university of Chicago that showed that resume with black sounding rejected names at twice the rate of resumes with white sounding names...." Well get a clue! Time for a new song: "Mama, Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be And maybe, just for the sake of having equal footing with whitey, name him MATTHEW instead of TYRONE. Yes, I know the poor kid would be teased unmercifully by slackers in the 'hood. Oh well, welcome to life. "Matthew" - Oh, the humanity! | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1143 Registered: 04-2006 |
>Accraghana Good luck... | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8726 Registered: 09-2005 |
Accraghana said: "Are you saying that blacks are inferior and hence cannot recover from oppression like the Irish or whomever did, because genetically we are preconditioned to be lazy and irresponsible and score poorly on test?" No, you said it. And frankly, some blacks say it to themselves and believe it. Detroit stylin is a prime example right here on these threads, and Blksoul stands beside him, singing in harmony. Both have one goal: Reparations PG eloqently answers your question: "It is not a question if inferiority, it is the knowledge that a person is responsible for their own destiny and in the end they must do what is necessary to succeed. It is clear that black folks have these abilities because millions have done it and continue to do so. Those are the role models that are needed in the inner city, not rappers, drug dealers, gang bangers or opportunistic race baiters like Al Sharpton." | ||
Civilprotectionunit4346 Member Username: Civilprotectionunit4346 Post Number: 244 Registered: 06-2007 |
Let's face it folk's....the area is not going to come back to it's glory days. People keep moving out, developers really don't want to deal with most of the areas that would be good for restoration or new homes to be put up because of the whole problem with scrappers/crime & people who just don't give a crap about the area because it's been in a downtroded situation for so long..sure more stuff will appear downtown, but still the economy & job situation won't improve....it would if they would turn there backs on the big 3 and turn towards other economic development and job growth....I know it'll be a hard thing to do since so many people here had family & friend who worked or still work for the big 3. It's going to be hard road but it would bring more improvment then keep wishing on false dreams that the autoindustry here is going to bounce back and more factories will open...these companies want to downsize more and streamline there industry and they don't care who they take down in the process..it's all about money & greed. Im sick and tired of people complaining on here about buy american cars, and buy american this....stop it!!!! It's ridiculous it's impossible to for most people to do this, especially with the way everything is going now a day. Most manufactured goods aren't made here anymore. Shoot you can't find a toy now a days that isn't made in Japan, or Indonesia. This area, this state needs to come to terms...and but closure on the whole auto industry is gonna be a big job creator here....I saw that Granholm was going over seas to find companies that might find an interest here in bringing jobs. If people don't come to terms with these issues...especially people in poltical and economic power this won't happen...Everyone will still be chasing lost dreams....we can't leave it this way for our younger generations now and future generations. I come from a state that has a few hards time's but nothing as bad as what has happened here, people can change for the good of the economy and the current movement of people leaving the state. Damn....I should run for mayor or some politcal office. | ||
Gibran Member Username: Gibran Post Number: 708 Registered: 02-2007 |
People are resilient despite oppression when given true opportunity...we have a tendency to attribute one values system and apply it to others and complain when they don't adapt to our view of the world..we are comfortable with people who represent our image of success. We don't see people as individuals. We generalize and look for symbols or role models that we are comfortable with. For years all of our values are vested in the eurocentric perception of reality...which is fine until you don't share the "demographic"... then we say well pick yourself up by your boot straps etc. In reality each person is unique and accountable...Society and culture plays a role..the great equalizers are economic, educational and understanding... Hate divides and enslaves...education and freedom of oppression frees a person to pursue quality in their lives. Economic genocide and oppressive attitudes perpetuates cycles... no one can speak for another...but we can come together and listen to his or her concerns and help develop opportunities.... an investment in our children is truly an investment in our future...pay now or continue to pay later....at a higher cost... Who can perscribe another's role model ....we individually have our own heros...accountablity begins with a deeper understanding of ourselves. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 623 Registered: 11-2006 |
Accra: you sure give the white man alot of credit. Is anyone else pissed off at blksoul for post #24 referring to someone as 'kkk'? Isn't that hugely racist? Can we call him/her the 'n' word now? Not that I want to, but damn. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1683 Registered: 01-2004 |
" I posted this link on the Non-D board recently and it got completely ignored: " Uh, thats cause its a link to Orpah - duhr. | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 22 Registered: 07-2007 |
Perfect Gentlemen. Do you seriously want to go there? I mean…. do you seriously want to attempt a historical tit for tat by suggesting or inferring, as you have done, that this racism thing has worked both ways historically? I am not even going to entertain such absurdly ridiculous suggestions by demonstrating a chorological history of what whites have perpetrated against blacks with no offsetting actions by blacks...because I KNOW you already KNOW this. Suffice it to say…such ignorance is why we will never get over this racial thing. Some of you people are no doubt very intelligent. Some of you have advanced degrees and good professional jobs and what not. Your problem solving skills are not in question...normally. Thus, when some of you retort with obviously poorly thought out and respectfully – ignorant – responses, I am forced to question your motivations. Why would intelligent people all of a sudden demonstrate such willful ignorance? Is it because ones intellect becomes constipated by ones prejudice? What intelligent thinking person would attempt to use the fact that some blacks have succeeded, despite racism, to invalidate the claims that blacks have been diminished as the result of racism? Such ignorance would presuppose that all blacks are clones of one and other and have no individual variation. It would also presuppose that “racism” affected each of these clones equally in degree and kind. Then, and only then, can one make the argument that given that some blacks/clones have risen above then ALL blacks/clones should have risen above...right? Humans are not clones and hence Black humans are not clones. Individuals vary in natural ability, drive, temperament, intellect and the like. Individuals also vary in regards to experiences, circumstances, luck, connections, chance and the like. Thus, there will always be VARIATION among INDIVIDUALS as certain individuals are indeed superior to other individuals. So the fact that some blacks have risen higher than other blacks is natural just as some whites rise above other whites. That said, the issue is are some whites trying to say SOME RACES ARE SUPERIOR TO OTHERS...namely that whites are superior to blacks and this genetic variation is why blacks are having so many problems relative to whites. That said, the idea that ALL blacks should be in the same predicament relative to racism is simply ignorance. Furthermore, you, perfect gentlemen, are suggesting that racism is only valid if it is an insurmountable obstacle and hence if one or some blacks overcome the obstacle it invalidates “racism” as a causation for why so many blacks still languish behind. That is like suggesting that the fact that there were Jews who survived the holocaust invalidates the holocaust as being why 6 million Jews died. It would also be akin to arguing that since there were people who were in the twin towers on 911 who got out safely, despite the terrorist attack, then it proves that the reason the others died was not rooted in the terrorist attack. This is the type of nonsensical rationalization from obviously intelligent people that really compels me to question their motivation. I mean under normal circumstances would not an intelligent person see such glaring fallacies in reasoning? Why would I or should I have to point out the fallacies inherent in the reasoning of intelligent people unless these intelligent people had an emotional investment in not accepting the truth? (Message edited by accraghana on July 14, 2007) | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 750 Registered: 04-2007 |
LOL- PG she just kicked your butt!!!!! AG- I thought you weren't coming back? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1828 Registered: 03-2006 |
Nobody is saying there has not been racism in the past and there are racists now. But for you to say that racism is the main reason those in the inner city are failing defies logic. There are very few whites left in Detroit to oppress anyone. If a black person commits a crime in Detroit, statistics tell us that the victim will probably be black, the cop who arrests him will be black, the judge and jury that convicts him will be black. The city government is majority black. So I am not sure how racism is "keeping black people down" in the city. You failed to address the fact that self-destructive behaviors play a key role among those that find themselves living in poverty. How does racism make someone act a certain way? You keep saying that whites think they are superior. They are NOT superior but their world view is different, I will grant you that. I was brought up with a different set of values than most inner city kids from what I can gather. The idea of going on Welfare or doing drugs or ending up in a life of crime was not acceptable. There were no excuses made for self-destructive behavior. When the chips were down in my life I wasn't looking for anyone else to blame or someone to bail me out. Billions have been spent on public housing projects, welfare programs, Medicaid, ADC, food stamps, and various other federal and state programs yet the city is still in decline. What ideas do you have? For the sake of argument, lets just say that black Americans have been victimized more by racism more than any other ethnic group on the planet. Even though there is more opportunity and liberty here for them than in their ancestral homeland to this day. But lets forget that for a moment, what exactly are you asking for? More government programs? Companies moving into the city to provide jobs for the poor? You want all the white folks who left after the 67 riots and 5 terms of Coleman Young to come back to the city? Move all of the poor folk out of the city and in to the suburbs? Anything? (Message edited by perfectgentleman on July 15, 2007) | ||
Gibran Member Username: Gibran Post Number: 710 Registered: 02-2007 |
how about compassion and understanding and real opportunity...I think thats all anyone is asking... | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 779 Registered: 01-2005 |
Good questions, PG. Everyone is aware of the problems, some admittedly caused by racism, but I'd like to hear some answers from AG (assuming there are some.) | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 753 Registered: 04-2007 |
I really do understand PG's side as well. It is an ugly, angry, fratricidal fued. I just would like to end it somehow. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1830 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: People create their own opportunities. Nobody else's compassion is going to change your life. In the end if you don't want to help yourself and make the right choices, you will fail. | ||
Gibran Member Username: Gibran Post Number: 711 Registered: 02-2007 |
what a sad and lonely life.... | ||
Gibran Member Username: Gibran Post Number: 712 Registered: 02-2007 |
I see compassion working everyday....I also see the results of the lack of compassion...while everyone has to be accountable...your posts always point to the demographics of the family structure...Love and commpassion at home drives a person to develop the confidence and ultimately they develop a higher self-esteem...That is when they strive to be successful...sometimes the extension of support during those years of struggling has to come from outside ...eventually they will develop inside. Certainly, PG you could relate to having some help you at one point ....no man is an island..we are all inter-dependent on others... besides if your world view is so correct why is it not working. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6199 Registered: 02-2004 |
Perfectgentleman Great post, black folks in America have been racially and segregatedly oppressed after slavery. White-folks in America just just gave them a few options for the newly freed blacks back in 1865 Stay here and MAYBE you will became American citizens or GO BACK TO AFRICA! Most of them stay here because most of them born here and well aware of the climate and enviroments only a few thousand of them chose to leave America and depart for Africa and settle a free British colony of LIBERIA. Those who stay in the U.S. will continue to suffer under the white man's oppression all the way down to the Civil Rights Era. And if its over most black-folks still continue to suffer in the Ghettos, turning to drugs, killing their own brothers, having wedlock children and turning into a life of crime. Black folks these days are looking for the easy way out, but they can't get it because the white man said "Didn't we gave you your civil rights? In America you have to work to earn like everyone else or die trying!" Black folks in U.S. need to flee from their personal psychological strongholds. They have to know that taking the easy way out is going put you all right back in the ghetto or in jail. If black folks don't have a game plan, THEY LOSE! | ||
Gibran Member Username: Gibran Post Number: 713 Registered: 02-2007 |
Lets just say for the sake of discussion...that we all agree that everyone is accountable to self.... lets say that letting go of "psychological bonds" is the answer, which in part it is.... how does one do that... education, opportunity, economics, and accountability... from within (self) and community...and external with opportunity... if you have money you can let go of bonds psychological bonds through education, counseling and opportunity...you have external and internal incentives...resources. if you don't have monies or people that believe in your dignity...or failing social systems that just perpetuate frustration with/and lack of resources you then have a more difficult time to break out...you can in time do so... we should not generalize though...it still is with each person's story that we gain understanding. someone mentioned the "black wall street" in Tulsa...I know it very well...there was opportunity and resources....great business models and etc...it was destroyed out of greed and stupidity...the community around the district is currently trying...and there are a lot of similarities to Detroit...(however,they just closed the grocery store down...which served as an anchor to other stores..etc)....the point is that it takes along time and a strong committment from all of the community to re-establish opportunities after they have been destroyed....it takes "everyone"...both black and white to lay down the past...blaming is not the solution...I see that when you give opportunity (not handouts)..you get something so great in return ...hope. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 2060 Registered: 11-2005 |
quote: So what? It was an interesting show about successful black adults mentoring kids. Something that some posters on here seem to think never happens. | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 225 Registered: 07-2007 |
Both sides make some valid points. But don't you think you boys should go on out and have a few drinks now and drop this mess for the weekend? Spend some time with the fam. the good rev | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 1141 Registered: 09-2006 |
"So when you compare Detroit to most major cities in America, most of which have much larger percentage white populations than Detroit…. what is reflected is really the discrepancies between blacks and white in America." That is an excellent point. I suspect that as Detroit’s fortunes rise so will the fortunes for all of Black America especially if the change here in the city is initiated by African Americans and not reliant on outsiders. If it has to start somewhere it might as well start here. “And maybe, just for the sake of having equal footing with whitey, name him MATTHEW instead of TYRONE" For some reason the image of Kunta Kinte getting whipped for not acknowledging his new "Christian" name of Toby Reynolds comes to mind. | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 23 Registered: 07-2007 |
Perfect Gentlemen, that is very pompous of you to assume that I am asking ~begging~ whites or government for anything. What I have done is simply EXPLAIN, or attempt to, how the present is the creation of the past and hence how the black present is a creation of the black past. I will say this: In a representative Republic/Democracy like ours the people elect representatives to address needs and concerns of the people. In such a nation were 70% of the population is white and some 75% of the electorate is white, the majority rule manifest as “white interest”. In other words, black people live under the political dictatorship of white interest via the tyranny of the majority. Politicians create platforms to that represent the interest of the majority in order that they can be elected. If the platform is not viable or desirable to the majority then the candidate has no viability. It just makes mathematical sense that in this construct and with whites being 75% of the electorate that whites are shaping policy. This is not racism per se, it just a numbers game that favors whites. In such a construct whites are assured that there interest and needs are addressed through the political process. For African Americans it’s different. We are only 13% of the population and only about 10% of the electorate. Thus, we much choose from political platforms that represent primarily the interest of whites and their thinking on matters. We are not formulating policy based on our pressing needs and interest…. because we do not have the leverage. This is part of the problem. We have taxation and under representation. How many blacks are there in the senate again? The fact is that we have little control over our collective fate other than as individuals. Whites have the government looking out for your interest whether you recognize it or not. When whites have a pressing problem you can best believe that they are going to write their congressman and get the issue addressed politically because politicians respect the weight of the white vote on their viability. Black people have no such political leverage mathematically. Therefore, we cannot use the government to represent our interest…. like whites can. Black people do not come up with all these social policies. Welfare was never designed for black folk. Affirmative Action has never been for just black folks as white women have been the largest historical beneficiaries of the policy. Thus social programs are really not designed to represent cures for problems that are plaguing the black community, but rather, liberal policies were designed to benefit poor and working class whites. There is no policy that represents problems that are acute or endemic to the black community. You see if white people are not affected by a problem in the same degree that the black community is, the government will never seriously address the problem. Why? The reason being that it is NOT a problem of the MAJORITY. Remember that this is a majority rule construct and if only a minority of people is having a problem, the problem will often go un represented. So in essence, whatever white people decide to eat….that is what black folks got to eat too. Black folks are not deciding what meals are going to be served even though our dietary requirement in some cases are radically different from white folks. So to make a long answer short, what black people need to have their tax dollars redirected to address their needs. Black people need the autonomy to design and implement social programs that REPRESENT our pressing issues and needs. We do not need to be regulated and filtered by white interest and perspectives through the tyranny of the majority. That is a very inefficient means to address acute problems in the black community. Look at the minority rights built into the Iraqi Constitution by the Americans. They recognize the resulting tyranny of the majority Shiite population of Iraq over the Sunnis and Kurds if minority rights were not built into the system. Black people in America are vetoed by white interest. The reason the government is really failing to solve many of the social problems plaguing the black community is because they are not white interest or interest shared by whites. Blacks killing blacks is a problem to whites how? Let blacks start practicing more proportional murders and see the reaction from white folks and how politicians will fall over each other introducing new legislation and programs to cut down on violence. I have said enough: PS…I am not mad or angry with anyone here and I appreciate the civility that everyone has showed on this emotional topic. Peace! | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 780 Registered: 01-2005 |
AG: Why do you believe that black and white interests are necessarily adverse? I think for the most part they are mutual. My interests as a white person are that blacks reach or surpass the education and financial levels of white America. If that could be accomplished I'd pay less taxes, for one thing, because blacks wold be paying far more than they do now, and expenditures for social programs, welfare costs would be substantially reduced. (Yeah, right, that'll happen. It should under those facts but Congress will find other ways to squander our - black's and white's - money.) Equal financial and educational accomplishments by both races would reduce or eliminate many social problems. Many whites who fear blacks moving next door would not be concerned if the neighbor was Don Barden. This is a very simplistic I know. Racism today is far different that post-Civil War racism I think. It's not based on hatred as much aggravation over the real or perceived failure of other people to assume personal responsibility for their actions and inaction, especially after we taxpayers (black, white etc) have spent countless billions of taxpayer dollars trying to establish a level playing field for blacks. It does not seem to have worked very well. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 936 Registered: 06-2004 |
Accraghana, You speak with much persuasion and eloquence. On your point about Detroit being a proxy for the condition of Blacks generally, I agree, but I see the issue a bit differently. Why is it that unlike Chicago where the poor Black area is a subset of the city proper, in Detroit it's the whole city. Maybe one answer is that the most geogrphically desirable areas (gross pointes) were gerrymandered out of the city. b | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 183 Registered: 06-2007 |
quote: "Is anyone else pissed off at blksoul for post #24 referring to someone as 'kkk'?" I'm not. You'd have to read the non-d postings to understand. Surprisingly though, KKK actually stumbles upon fleeting moments of insight that won't let me completely condemn him. Cheers! | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 184 Registered: 06-2007 |
quote: "...gerrymandered..." This term is unfamiliar to me. Could you elaborate? | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 584 Registered: 07-2006 |
AG, as Ray said, you speak with much persuasion and eloquence. While I do not agree on everything you said, and would love to debate each and every point you brought up (and I see I would have my work cut out for me), it's difficult to do so on such a forum, so I will focus on one portion: quote: That sounds great on the surface, but if you really think about it, it doesn't make sense. If only 'black' money goes towards 'black' programs, than the whites, and the hispanics, and everyone else, can do the same thing. Unfortunately, since the per capita income - and therefore the tax income - is much higher for whites than blacks, so except for the white program, NONE of these will have enough money to do what they want, and nothing gets fixed. Except, the poor white people are no longer poor, and now you have an even bigger divide. Should blacks have more say in the programs that affect them? Absolutely. Should they have the only say, and prevent other races from having a hand in designing and implementing programs? hell no. Ignoring the wisdom of any person - white, black, hispanic, etc - is racist in itself and does nothing to help the underlying problem. The solution is not going to come from anyone saying 'I won't listen to you because you are (insert race here)', it will only come from cooperation and understanding from ALL sides. 3wc has some excellent points. Having nearly 10 million blacks living in poverty does nothing to help me, or anyone else. No one profits from it - if anything, a lot of rich white guys would stand to profit MORE if those 10 million were better off than they are now. How many more new cars would be sold? How many computers? How many homes would be built or renovated? The list could go on. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1831 Registered: 03-2006 |
Accraghana - I would have to agree with 3rdworldcity that the goals and desires of minorities and whites are much the same. Economic opportunity, education, affordable health care, good housing, lower crime rates are some of the many goals we should all be striving for. You seem to feel that whoever is in the majority or is prospering is doing so at the expense of someone else. I don't think that is how America works. The fact is that the plight of minorities in the inner city does have consequences for all of us. The current situation in the Detroit metro area is a glaring example of this. Certainly if Detroit were doing better it would benefit the entire region. So the question of under-representation in government by blacks is a concern yet it seems to imply that a white person is incapable of empathizing and speaking to the needs of the black community. I don't buy this any more than I would say a black man or woman could not represent my interests. Barack Obama is in the senate and is making a damn good run for the Democratic nomination for president. Harold Ford and Michael Steele both came close to winning their elections to the senate in the last election. Unfortunately as Steele was a Republican he was called an "Uncle Tom." There are also plenty of black house members. Although our representatives may be capable of responding to our needs they don't seem to be doing it! Neither party is doing too good a job at representing the interests of their constituencies at the moment. You don't like the way things are going in government for the black cause? Well, I don't think the best interests of AMERICANS in general are being served either. The bottom line is that prosperity does not spring from government. The version of it we have today has become a bloated, inefficient, incompetent waste of taxpayer dollars. Even if there were 20 black senators it doesn't guarantee you anything. Despite all of that the country marches on. No government program, regardless of who designs it, will be the salvation for minorities or anyone else for that matter. In the city of Detroit, there is near 100% representation in city government for blacks. Has it really made anything better? If there was a really good white candidate who was running for mayor would he have a hope in hell of being elected? Not at all. Elections in Detroit basically consist of 2 black Democrats every time. Rudy Giuliani couldn't get elected mayor in this town. As a suburbanite, even though I am affected greatly by how the city is run, I have no representation there either. Suburban customers pay for water provided by the city and have nobody on the council speaking for them. The ingenuity and hard work of individuals at the grass roots level always does a better job than government. I think that is what is needed in the inner city. The culture needs to change. Bad behavior should be stigmatized and good decisions should be reinforced with praise and reward. As it is, we are rewarding an unwed mother with more money if she has another child she is unable to care for. If you subsidize counterproductive behavior you get more of it. As long as my tax dollars are going to be spent on these programs, I would rather pay a kid to finish school, not get pregnant and stay out of trouble than to have a child out of wedlock and drop out which pretty much guarantees a life of poverty for herself and the child in the process. In the closing of your post you seem to be advocating some sort of separatist concept, similar to what Farrakhan talked about a few years ago. Is this the "autonomy" you spoke of? A re-Segregation plan of sorts? I don't think that is the answer or a workable solution. Isolation breeds mistrust and that will in turn create more racism. The United States Constitution (the amended version!) provides for equality and the OPPORTUNITY for all to prosper in this country, I don't think it is wise to start creating special race-based policies and programs within government. The previous attempts at doing this have not solved the problems they were intended to address. PS - I am not mad or angry either, it has been a good, honest discussion. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on July 15, 2007) | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 237 Registered: 07-2007 |
I'm impressed to say the least that this post has not taken the turn for the worst and that PG and AGhana have spoken so eloquently on the subject instead of slinging dirt like usual suspects do. Very nice debate gentlemen. What Pops in my mind is the meeting Between Malcom and Martin only this time, we know what has really been discussed. Hats off to the both of you Please continue as Im sure we all could learn aif not how to treat each other but to help one another also. the good rev P.S. seperation is not the answer people | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 350 Registered: 06-2005 |
When will poverty and crime (and other problems) stop being black and white and hispanic and start being American problems? Were all American we should help each other and work together! For one, I think these people getting these welfare checks should have to pee in a cup and be drug tested. I have to pee in a cup to make the money to pay for welfare they should damn well have to pee in a cup to get MY free money!!! There should also be classes (even if its a traveling school) set up with child care facilities on the premisis and a no check handed out for less than a C average and a clean drug screen. We all do seem to agree on some things EDUCATION is key. We do have to figure out a way to show that there is a good life out there, but you have to want it and that yes it takes work. Why do we have to force someone to want education and the better things in life? America needs to start looking at all of our problems as American problems! The older I get though the problems seem to become more insurmountable. How do you help someone that doesnt want the help? (I didnt read every post as you guys fried my brain by the time I was half way through) Will try and read the rest later) Great thread and great discussion! | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 25 Registered: 07-2007 |
For those who are dissenting my point that black issues are different from whites, let me clarify. It is incorrect to validate “difference” based upon whether or not groups share the same issues and problems. Difference is not only by virtue of “kind” of problems or issue, but also by virtue of the “Degree” that a problem or issue manifest. If any of you are going to argue that rates of poverty, rates of violence, rates of out of wedlock births, rates of unemployment and the like are the same in degree between blacks and whites in America, you take me for a fool. Sure, whites have violence, poverty, out of wedlock births, unemployment…. but is it fair to suggest that there is no egregious difference? Come on people! It’s not really incumbent upon me to come up with a solution to black problems because I have no power to impose the solution. I do have the power to observe the causes of the problem however. What I know is that America has never really seriously tried to fix what it broke in regards to its black citizens, every since it reneged on 40 acres and a mule and allowed the gains of reconstruction to be dismantled by racism. To be honest, I am not very optimistic because blacks still reside in the lands of their oppression still dominated by the “entity” that oppressed them. As I said, the construct of our republic gives power to the majority, which happens to be overwhelmingly white. The white population, not all though, have traditionally been adverse to black people. Such behavior has been over 300 years in the making. As I noted before, I can drive my car without even thinking about it via the force of habit and the subconscious. Can whites still be adverse to blacks without really being conscious/thinking about it? I believe so. I just don’t see whites as having the ability or will to empathize with the black condition. I will say this, however. I do believe that whites hold blacks to the same standards that they hold whites to, which is fair. Whites expect poor whites to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. They see the poverty of whites as mainly being “self inflicted” individual irresponsibility just as they see blacks. They see poor whites as lazy and they see poor blacks as lazy. That’s also part of the problem. I don’t think whites should “Project” (see psychology 101) that what is true for them is also true for blacks. Whites seem to understand the problems of poverty, crime, and unemployment from a “white perspective” and the attempt to superimpose a solution to black problems from what they feel is the solution for whites that have the problem. This will not work because the root causes that manifest similar end results are not the same. It would be akin to a white person being sick and going to the doctor to get meds to fix the problem, then assuming that the meds that worked for him will work for a black guy who is sick…but with a different illness. America has failed to diagnose and treat the specific problems of black America. Black people have to settle for meds and treatment that are based upon what ails white America. White America is resistant to blacks getting any special diagnoses or meds because they say that discriminates against whites via “why can’t whites get special diagnoses and meds too”. Well, whites do get that by virtue of MAJORITY RULE. Many whites don’t seem to understand that majority rule means THEY RULE. Unless the goal of whites is to exclude ALL non-whites from participation or benefit, things are going to the interest and benefit of the majority…. which is white. Again, whites as the majority continue to block things that could help black people either because they don’t understand or they don’t want to see black progress. I don’t think 300 years of racism and the idea of “white supremacy” if not “black inferiority” ingrained into the culture can be turned off from the simple passage of civil rights legislation. I think that racism has certainly fatigued with the younger generation, but Americans are living longer and there are a lot of racist baby boomers still in this country. The problem for the younger generation is that they just don't know history and they look at black people and hence don't understand why things are as they are.....so they just blame who they can see...which are blacks. The present is the creation of the past and when youth are ignorant of making that connection....they will repeat the past. (Message edited by accraghana on July 15, 2007) | ||
Newport1128 Member Username: Newport1128 Post Number: 68 Registered: 05-2007 |
So, Accraghana, what can blacks do to help themselves, if they cannot count on any help from whites? Concrete ideas, please, not philosophical rhetoric. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 247 Registered: 05-2004 |
Excuses, excuses. How about a plan of action? Grass roots action. NAACP was great at trying to change things through the courts. What needs to be dealt with is block by block, household by household and person to person in the black community. This isn't easy and you can't always expect whites to solve blacks problems (that they have to address first). | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 643 Registered: 11-2006 |
Accra said: It’s not really incumbent upon me to come up with a solution to black problems because I have no power to impose the solution. I do have the power to observe the causes of the problem however. What I know is that America has never really seriously tried to fix what it broke in regards to its black citizens, every since it reneged on 40 acres and a mule and allowed the gains of reconstruction to be dismantled by racism. Please. Anyone can see a problem. My guess is that is just what most of us do. We philosophize (sp?) what has caused this problem until we're blue in the face and then demand that someone ELSE be the one to fix it. It is so very incumbent upon you to help with the solution to 300 years of tyranny. It is just too easy to type a thousand word essay on how you 'feel', tell everyone else what they should be doing and then close the computer and go out to lunch. I am singling you out, but want to paint a broader picture of what everyone else seems to be doing as well with their time. Talk, talk, talk. Blame, blame, blame. Maybe you could start doing, doing, doing. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 644 Registered: 11-2006 |
Accra: "the construct of our republic gives power to the majority, which happens to be overwhelmingly white" Majority rules applies to the entire planet. Sheesh. But, if you want to make it about tyranny, go right ahead. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 645 Registered: 11-2006 |
Accra, You went to college, right? Or maybe you are a philosophy teacher? I used to really dig philosophy when I was in my 20's. Never went to college, but would love to try to have deep, meaningful conversations with friends. I don't know when it happened, but I started thinking discussions like this were a big waste of time and energy. Energy that could be better spent actually 'doing' something about whatever it was I was trying to figure out (philosophically). IMO it doesn't matter what caused a problem. Fix the problem. If you are in a dark room and try to put a light bulb in the socket and it falls to the floor and breaks, do you get another bulb to fix the problem of darkness, or do you sit around in the darkness and try to figure out how to make sure that this never happens again? YOU FIX THE PROBLEM. Then you can take all the time to figure out how it happened!!!! See, I'm no philosopher, but I do have common sense. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 646 Registered: 11-2006 |
Accra says: "If any of you are going to argue that rates of poverty, rates of violence, rates of out of wedlock births, rates of unemployment and the like are the same in degree between blacks and whites in America, you take me for a fool. Sure, whites have violence, poverty, out of wedlock births, unemployment…. but is it fair to suggest that there is no egregious difference? Come on people!" Then, a few lines later says: "I just don’t see whites as having the ability or will to empathize with the black condition." My response: Oh, we want to empathize. It's just that you keep telling us that "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand". So we apologize, tuck our white tails between our legs and slink away wondering what the heck we did wrong. --------------------------- "America has failed to diagnose and treat the specific problems of black America." Accra, America has failed to diagnose and treat the specific problems of AMERICA!!!! When America figures out what is good for the whole country, the we can start picking apart it's smaller groups - if that is what you really want. (Message edited by kathinozarks on July 15, 2007) | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 249 Registered: 07-2007 |
Well Kath, glad you joined. Im learning a bunch here from all sides. the good rev | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 647 Registered: 11-2006 |
hey rev! | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 589 Registered: 07-2006 |
Paulmcall has a great point. What's to stop blacks from correcting the problems now? Why is it expected that there must be a government program for everything? To truly be effective, it NEEDS to start at the grass roots level - as he said, block to block, household to household, person to person. This is completely possible - I think few would disagree that blacks tend to be much more passionate than whites when it comes to almost anything - think of a black church vs. a white one, or, if you work with people like i have, how a discussion on basketball can reach nearly deafening volumes at times (which in one case caused the old white men walking through the plant to turn in alarm when the black guys started yelling, much to our amusement). When focused in a positive direction, that passion could be (and is) a powerful agent for change. In any case, regardless of the program or grass roots efforts, any change is going to take years. Expecting an overnight solution just leads to disappointment. | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 26 Registered: 07-2007 |
Blacks can do a lot of things to help themselves…. collectively. The problem is that whites will seek to discredit the means and destroy the effort. For example, I cannot recall the name of the concept proposed by the City council called “African Town” or something like that. The gist of it was taking or redirecting some revenues, from a predominately black city, to help create and subsidize an African (black) retail district downtown. Of course, every white person and their yet to be born offspring objected to the idea and called it racist…based upon the premise that if whites did such a thing the would be considered racist. This is what I mean. If blacks try to help blacks…. whites will attempt to smash the effort by saying that if whites helped whites that they would charged with being racist and racial discrimination. You see the problem in America is that while America had no problem targeting blacks for oppression and exclusion, they have a BIG PROBLEM seeing blacks targeted for repair or inclusion. In truth, the former and the latter are two heads of the same coin of racism. Today, whites simply use the anti discriminatory laws created to end white racial oppression of blacks, to prevent the government or laws from having the ability to target the black community for repair. So if black people all of a sudden decide to start supporting other black businesses by taking their purchasing power from whites businesses and redirecting them to black businesses, whites will attack it. If black people do anything that has the effect of favoring blacks over whites…it will be attacked and invalidated based upon them using laws against racial discrimination to block the ability of blacks to help blacks as well as the ability of the government or any other entity to target blacks for assistance. You see the problem will not be fixed with out a specific targeted remedy that is based upon the particulars, in degree and kind, of the black community. I will say it again and again because it is true. Whites have veto power over blacks in America so the issue is not what blacks can do for themselves…the issue is what whites will allow blacks to do for themselves without whites attempting to circumvent it. The only solution that whites proposes for blacks are individually based. In other words, every man or women for him or herself. Whites have the government at their disposal through majority rule and this representative republic. You look at us as the ones dependent upon government…. but the truth is that it is you and you don’t even realize it because YOU ARE THE GOVERNMENT and hence via majority rule you design it and depend upon it to work for your benefit. (Message edited by accraghana on July 15, 2007) (Message edited by accraghana on July 15, 2007) | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 190 Registered: 06-2007 |
It's not Accra's position to come up with a solution or to get out and make a difference. Accra has served his purpose by illuminating a problem that most people fail to understand. It is true our younger generation doesn't understand the past or the continued oppression that middle and upper class america places upon those living 1st world conditions. If you want solutions, then Kath is correct that this board is probably not the place to find them. The solutions lie with all of us working together and with our elected officials to change policy on the entire spectrum of issues. A previous poster has mentioned that our government is not just failing black america, it is failing all americans. this is true. So who has the power to change this? We do. We need advocacy on how welfare money is measured and distributed. We need reform on education standards. We need programs and funding on job training and placement. We need to reevaluate what jobs and industries are counterproductive to a healthy civilization for the future. We need reform on our building and housing constructs that afford interaction within the community as a support system not isolated from one another. We need healthcare that is affordable and available. All of these things are different facets of program that currently and repeatedly turns it back on poor america. At what point do we stop throwing bad money at a problem that needs more than money? I'll direct you to an innovative program in Harlem if you want solutions. http://www.hcz.org/ It's just one aspect of a bigger problem, but it's a start and it targets the most important aspect of the issue, our children. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 654 Registered: 11-2006 |
If I'm the government you would think I would do more for myself! Where's my shiny new car? Man, I need more cash! How come I have to put up with other people? I'm the government, I should do something! (just thought my thoughts were humorous and that I should share) | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 27 Registered: 07-2007 |
Politics and economics are not the same thing. What will fail Americans, Middle Americans, more and more in the future is a concept called “Capitalism”. The government is not going to change the realities of global free market economic condition and decaying American economic hegemony. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 656 Registered: 11-2006 |
Man Accra, you just lost me. "I'm just a simple cavewoman, your ways frighten me!" | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 149 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "The government is not going to change the realities of global free market economic condition" Wanna bet? I seem to remember when Japan was kicking our asses, folks saying then too there was nothing we could do. It's not going to keep going like this forever, you're naive if you think it will. It's only continuing temporarily because not enough people have been affected by "Globalization" yet. When enough fine Americans figure out we'll have to live like them to compete with them, that will be the end of it. These boomtowns are capitalizing on the raping of America's manufacturing base. In California, the busiest segment of their economy is importing, dockwork and handling freight from China. There is a positive future in this? Kath nailed it.. We better figure what we're going to do for our country. If we don't we're all doomed. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 591 Registered: 07-2006 |
quote: Sounds great, except for the fact that it ignored the REAL history of the area so that we could create some fake, Disney-esque district. What's next, Tomorrowland? Creating such an 'Africantown' (I too, forget if that is the correct name) in the middle of a predominately black city, is like going to Italy and opening up an Olive Garden, or a Taco Bell in Mexico. It's not authentic and it's no better - worse, even - than the other options they have around them already. Throw in the ignorance of the real history of the area in question, and i can't fathom why anyone would think it's a good idea to throw public money at such a plan when there are so many other things in this city that need attention. quote: a little harsh including the yet-to-be born offspring. In any case, i hear the word 'gentrification' an awful lot when it comes to new developments, and Detroit already has a history of redeveloping black areas, and has been called racist for those efforts - often, rightfully so. But now a few white people cry out about ONE SMALL AREA in downtown, and you claim foul? I try to consider the rest of what you say, but find almost all of it overly sensitive and negative, surprisingly since your posts have until now been pretty good. "whites will attempt to smash the effort" "whites will attack it" "it will be attacked and invalidated" "whites attempting to circumvent it" You sound like you are expecting failure right from the beginning! Of course no program will succeed when you EXPECT failure! quote: quote: Those are some pretty contradictory statements. on one hand, you say we only come up with 'every man for himself' solutions, but on the other, you say whites think blacks are dependent on government. which is it? And what you call 'every man for himself', I probably call 'individual responsibility'. I fail to see how expecting a person to be civil to others, to take an interest in his or her own education and future, to work hard, and not expect someone to hand them a picture perfect life on a silver platter, is a bad thing. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 192 Registered: 06-2007 |
Quote: "The government is not going to change the realities of global free market economic condition" But we can change our habits so as to not simply feed into perpetual cycle of perceived growth and subsequent decay. In theory, this is still a government OF the people. We tell our gov. what we want by our spending habits. We tell our government that we want to eat a hamburger, but we don't want to meet the cow. We want diamonds but don't want to know about the blood and despair that comes with it. We want electricity, but don't want to know about eco-system destruction. We want our fashionable clothes, but don't want to now about the sweatshop child labor... Capitalism simply responds to our wants. So it is easy to blame a system that we perceive we have no control over. instead we should be blaming ourselves for letting our perceived entitlements mold the world we live in today. It's time to meet the cow people. Like it or not you are all directly responsible for the shit we live in today. (Message edited by Jb3 on July 15, 2007) | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 592 Registered: 07-2006 |
quote: no kidding. i'll settle for a reliable, good paying, full-time job. for some reason, the three just don't seem to go together... quote: Very true. What is seldom realized is that this is not so much a black vs. white thing, it's a poor vs. rich problem. Are the white guys in power doing anything for poor whites? Not any more than they are doing for poor blacks. They are doing a fine job out of helping out the rich, though, regardless of color, and usually at the expense of the average joe, pushing him further into, or toward, poverty. Want a little proof that this is a class war? look at anti-union comments on almost any message board - you'll almost always find some comment regarding how someone is paid too much to put on a few screws (which is hardly a good description of the job). They are DEMANDING that the middle class be paid less. It's not the poor people demanding such things, it's usually those who stand to profit from such actions - those who are already rich. Of course, then the union cries out at executive bonuses... it's one salvo after another - the upper class fires, the middle class and the poor respond. No one on those boards is demanding that blacks - and blacks alone - should get paid less than they are. I would be surprised if anyone even THOUGHT that. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 150 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "Like it or not you are all directly responsible for the shit we live in today." Lack of campaign finance reform. corruption, bribery and the most ridiculous trade policies in the history of this country are responsible. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 782 Registered: 01-2005 |
Accra, you're beginning to lose me. You appear to be saying that whites, who control the country, stifle blacks or at least don't recognize or cater to "their" needs, as if their needs are different than whites'. Hey, I fought for equal rights and against racial discrimination in the'60's (and was called a bleeding heart liberal by some of my friends.) I supported Congress' passage of all the Civil Rights laws put forth by the NAACP and others, and the expenditure of countless billions of dollars to level the playing field. Many improvements resulted, but not enough to justify the cost in my opinion. I'm still against racial discrimination and that's why I supported, morally and financially, the recent MI Civil Rights Initiative which resulted in a constitutional change preventing discrimination against whites. It's now time for action. I would pass a law making it illegal to fail to read or write if one is capable of doing so. I'd pass a law making it illegal to fail to graduate from high school w/ passing grades..no pass-alongs. I'd set up boot camps where slackers would be sent until they could read and write and be productive members of society. I'd jail fathers who do not support their offspring and somehow punish girls who become pregnant while unable to support their children. Get rid of the Det. Pub. School System and go straight to all charter/private schools. Our black City Council an Administration would ever permit that of course and we of course wouldn't want to hurt their feelings. These laws would govern all races. Yeah, I'm fed up. Unless the black community comes up with some concrete plans to solve some of these problems, resentment against blacks will increase significantly. Call it racism if you will, but by whatever name, it's going to get worse before it gets better unless something workable is implemented. AG, I'm disappointed in your recent posts. You're a smart person. Let's have some solutions and no more BS about how you're only an observer and have no control over the government which gives you a pass.. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 193 Registered: 06-2007 |
quote: "Lack of campaign finance reform. corruption, bribery and the most ridiculous trade policies in the history of this country are responsible." Can't argue with that. They certainly don't help and make an easy scapegoat to perpetuate blind consumerism. Doesn't mean we that were are held unaccountable as we wish were the case. I'll agree that our government is corrupt and that it only serves corporate agendas. But corporations feed off of us. Without us buying their shit, they don't exist. Doesn't matter, we can complain and bitch till the cows come home. we'll still opt to buy a mass produced homes in once rural farmland completely removed from any sense of civilization as long as we can feed our pseudo-intellectualism through Fox or CNN. We'll pretend how enlightened we are while the world turns to shit and complain that Leopards are going extinct while we decorate our shit homes with the exotic mahoganies that caused the deforestation in the first place. As long as we have the convenience of big box retail and lifestyle center amenities, we can pretend that we are above any human concerns of caring, respect and accountability. So go ahead and pretend that our government is solely responsible. Change it if you can! Please! For me, i'll look a little closer to home as well as looking directly into the mirror. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 194 Registered: 06-2007 |
quote: "I'd jail fathers who do not support their offspring and somehow punish girls who become pregnant while unable to support their children." So now procreation is a crime? I get your point, but our penal system is irrevocably flawed as is. Jail is not a solution. Civil service is a solution. But i'm not talking about picking up garbage from the streets (that should done by the homeless, instead of begging for change, they should barter with garbage and recyclables or get paid for planting vegetation), i'm talking about training to perform useful tasks. If a deadbeat dad knocks up a girl and can't afford alimony, he should be forced to attend afterschool programs with kids researching on computers to solve math problems or find a cure for cancer or some shit. Wait...how many after school programs are available for intercity kids? How many Youthvilles are set up to actually feed into the the communities? quote: "Get rid of the Det. Pub. School System and go straight to all charter/private schools." How many poor families could afford private/charter schools? I do agree with education reform, but it has to be a give take relationship. Schools should be competing for kids from a pool of smaller neighborhood schools. As far as getting rid of public schools, you'll get your wish as next year as thirty something neighborhood schools will be closing ( thought i read that somewhere). | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 594 Registered: 07-2006 |
quote: All of them. Charter schools are free. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 195 Registered: 06-2007 |
Thanks Scottr! So why don't we have them? Are they privately or state funded? Maybe this is better served on Detroit EDU thread. | ||
Newport1128 Member Username: Newport1128 Post Number: 69 Registered: 05-2007 |
Everyone seems to be proposing systemic change when individual initiative and responsibility are where we need to begin. Things like: 1. Take care of your physical body, it's the only one you have. No drugs, no alcohol, no tobacco. Eat healthy and exercise. 2. Get the best education you can. Stay in school. Respect the teacher, the principal and your fellow students. School is for learning, not socialization, or sports, nor is it a fashion show. 3. Men, respect women. They are not your sexual playthings, nor are they here to help you prove your manhood by bearing your offspring. They are to be loved, honored, and respected as equals. 4. Women, respect yourselves. You do not "need" a man or a baby to prove you are a woman. If you decide to become a parent, do it within the bounds of s strong marriage, to a man who respects you and himself and will be an equal partner in raising your children. 5. Parents, be role models to your children. Teach them to love, to respect, to cherish themselves and all people. Show them by example the values of hard work, education and dedication to family and community. 6. Get involved in your neighborhood. Know your neighbors. Start or join a neighborhood organization. Work WITH the police to keep out the criminals. Keep you own home and the neighborhood clean. 7. If you believe in God, get involved with the church. That doesn't just mean showing up on Sunday morning. Get involved with youth groups, and helping the elderly and sick. Even if you don't "believe", you can still do these things. 8. Stay out of gangs. When you hang around a bunch of losers, you become one of them. 9. Work. An honest job is better than no job. Even a minimum wage, menial position is an opportunity for better things. No job equals no opportunity. 10. Violence never solved anything. If you want to change things, do it from the inside by changing your self, your family, your neighborhood. If you want to be a part of bigger change, support political candidates and parties who share your beliefs. You don't need money, or glacial government programs to do any of these things. They apply to all races, ages and nationalities. You just need the will to change and the strength to persevere. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 658 Registered: 11-2006 |
Quote: It's time to meet the cow people. Who are these cow people????? | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 659 Registered: 11-2006 |
Wow, Newport! BRILLIANT! You should send that to the News and FP and make copies and send out a mass mailing. If people can read (and that's the kicker) they might see these posted everywhere and subliminally they will learn these simple precepts. (I think precept is the right word?) I don't know, it just was in my head. probably subliminally placed there by some caring teacher or my mom!!! | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1832 Registered: 03-2006 |
Newport1128 - Good post, these principals are at the foundation of what made this country great and they still apply today. If these were followed we wouldn't need government programs at all. Accraghana - I must say that you seem to have an insidious view of the "white majority." It is like white folks are sitting in their homes rubbing their hands together trying to figure out how we can undermine the black community. The truth is people are too busy working, taking care of their families and living their lives to pursue such things. Some people criticized AfricanTown because they felt the entire city was already AfricanTown. As for me, I would be willing to support anything that would have a positive impact. The bottom line is this: If black folks have a plan of action and want to pursue it, they can go ahead and do it even if others criticize it. Who cares what a I think? If AfricanTown is a good idea, all that needs to be done is to persuade the mayor and the city council that it is and go for it. If funding is needed, then a business case needs to be prepared and presented to potential lenders and investors. The problem is that things like this have been tried before. In Flint some years ago you had a Hilton Hotel built, Autoworld and whatnot that all closed. Also the "Cool Cities" crap that Granholm was promoting in her first term that seems to have fizzled out. New businesses seem to do better when they are started organically, based on demand in the area for entertainment or services, not by politicians who want to be seen as "helping the community" and end up re-directing tax money to failed ideas. IMHO, if we had more of a law and order mentality in the city, investment and people would come. Safety and security should be priority 1. If you look around the country at areas that were successfully revived, I think you would find that was a key factor. That problem is the main reason Detroit is viewed in a negative light, followed by all of the abandoned structures, which would be 2nd on the list. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on July 15, 2007) | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6208 Registered: 02-2004 |
Newport1128 GREAT POST!! Only you have to do is take your special commandments and imply to the black folks, then they could live a happier peaceful lives like the can do white folks. Scottr, As you reply to Jb3's comments. Detroit Public Schools are already on the verge of becoming extinct. Those EVIL charter schools are getting more powerful then ever with all of their artificial education to the poor and middle income students especially from Detroit. It lured lots of black kids who are thirsty for knowledge. That's something that DPS needs to do. Black folks got their freedom, civil rights and other liberties just as the white man and other ethnic minorities. But why is the next generation of black folks aren't exercising it? IT'S TOO MUCH P.R.I.D.E. No game plan, no earnings. So many black leaders from Martin Luther King to Al Sharpton trying their best to provide blacks and other ethnic races equal rights and we just honor their legacies by naming schools and streets after them. THAT'S NOT ENOUGH! Black-folks, go out to the ghetto and clean up your act and become leaders, otherwise you all can carry the white man's burden in your backs. | ||
Newport1128 Member Username: Newport1128 Post Number: 70 Registered: 05-2007 |
Danny, The intent is not to make blacks into whites. There is nothing racial in any of the suggestions I posted. It goes beneath the skin. I intended them for ALL people. They're just my own ideas, and I certainly don't intend to imply that I'm a perfect person, either. It's strictly an individual thing, but all of us individuals together make a society. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6213 Registered: 02-2004 |
...and you doing it the right thing. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 595 Registered: 07-2006 |
Newport - fantastic. excellent post. jb3 - they're state funded and overseen by the university or public school that charters them. A few stats and facts: http://www.charterschools.org/ pdf/05DetroitCSfacts.pdf Recent news: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070516/NEW S01/705160316 http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2007707130325 My kids went to a charter school for kindergarten. I was really impressed with the curriculum (Guess what we learned about today daddy? The wennaisance!) and their enthusiasm for learning. However, for other reasons, they then went to public schools, and i swear they went BACKWARDS. They've been learning how to count change every day for the last two years. They've lost interest and get bored, and they dread going. While some of that could be attributed to the difference between a kindergartner and a second grader, my youngest went to kindergarten in the public school this year, and of course, learned how to count change. And this white, suburban school district is supposed to be one of the BETTER ones in the county. Well, maybe if they're learning to be a cashier, but 3 years of learning the SAME THING seems overkill. i can understand reinforcement, but this is ridiculous. That experience has made me a huge supporter of charter schools. There is a lot of opposition to them, particularly in the teachers' union camp. Charter schools often pay less, while taking students (and therefore, teaching positions) away from public schools. But I have seen nothing to support the idea that charter schools are inferior. Standardized test scores, maybe, but there is more to learning than a standardized test in just a couple subjects, and I don't put much faith in that method of determining a school's success rate. PG - a minor thing, but it was a hyatt regency up here in flint, not a hilton. it's switched owners and names several times, and is closed now, although a developer hopes to open it as dorms/apartments for UM-flint students. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 662 Registered: 11-2006 |
I like the way Danny got all excited! | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1834 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: I apologize for the error, you are correct. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 596 Registered: 07-2006 |
Danny - good post, particularly on MLK's legacy. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 196 Registered: 06-2007 |
quote: "Who are these cow people????? " Ahh, the cow people. Funny you should ask. I used to think they were a mythical race that would sneak into open farmfields and tip over cows as part of a blood feud raging over thousands of years. Later when i learned that this was a simple act of hillbilly entertainment i began in earnest my quest for the elusive cow people. Delving into the annals of history; first to rule out magical fairy like creatures that would convert good whole milk producing cows into delicious chocolate producing cows by discovering that it was Gernsie all along. Second to rule out similar gremlin like creatures hidden in the basements of Mcdonalds, Burger Kings and Wendys converting human feces into pressed patties to feed the endless supply of metallic machines transporting humanoids through the drive-thru attributing the phenomena to a mushroom like tendency of sprouting up in places of decay and filth only to realize that these metallic machines did not have consciousness of their own but were controlled by another elusive but insidious race called 'American people'. My studies have led me to the third possibility of the cow people being similar to a couch potato. Unable to fend for themselves in open interaction with others, they have resorted to confines of a small room with what appears to be a window that can show them images from all over the world. However, as more of these couch potatoes, and now 'cow people' gain in prominence over self-sufficient, transit oriented, healthy people, the exotic images of far away places becomes increasingly rare as the landscape reflects the uncontrolled spread of small rooms with false windows. In conclusion, we are the cow people. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 197 Registered: 06-2007 |
Thanks Scottr, Why are so many people against Charter Schools. Is it simply that a teacher doesn't have to be certified. I would think that something like this could help remediate the issue. http://education.zdnet.com/?p= 956 It's not a cure-all, nor a substitute for individual students special needs and help, but at least it can set a standard for curriculum. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 784 Registered: 01-2005 |
Hey, Jb3, I realize my "solutions" were simplistic and hurriedly thrown out there, but they did promote some justifiable criticism and that's good. I'd still like to hear from AG. | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 28 Registered: 07-2007 |
Perfect gentlemen. I do not see white people as sitting around salivating while they plot how they can make things bad for black people. Of course, you probably have some group of nuts running around the woods of Alabama and Mississippi who are, but they are on the fringe of society and have no real power. I do not see white people as being consumed by race or harboring any emotional hatred towards blacks in any large proportions today. In fact, I believe that blacks are more overtly conscious of race than are whites today, but that is not the same as “racism”. Moreover, I get along with a white stranger better than I do a black stranger. I understand the conditioning and reasoning behind all of this… Its called human nature. What I am saying is that whites and blacks in this nation do not share the same problems in degree, if not kind, and never have. If whites faced the same problems that blacks face, in degree and kind, why are not whites in the same socioeconomic conditions as blacks? Is it because you are genetically superior? Is it because blacks are genetically inferior? If none of those options are true, then obviously blacks and whites have different problems in America. Again I employ analogy of the problem. The way the system works is majority rules. Whites are the overwhelming majority. Whites thus have the power to use government to represent their shared majority interest. Whites issues are guaranteed to be addressed via the political process…and if not, the consequence is that the incumbents will lose power the next election. Say we have 10 people in the room and 7 of them have slight vision problems. Say that one person in the room has severe short sightedness. Say hypothetically that the eye doctor was only able to write one prescription and that one prescription had to be used by all and the way the prescription would be calibrated is via majority. In other words, the most common condition would set the prescription. What would be the consequence for the people with the least common condition? The consequence would be that he or she would get a pair of glasses that is really a prescription for someone else and hence this person will still have vision problems. You see, one-size fits all is determined by the size most commonly worn by the majority. Our political construct works out that most policies set by government are set based upon the most common condition of white Americans. True, some of these conditions and polices benefit blacks….but they are never calibrated, prescribed or sized to addressed the most common black conditions. Policies coming from the government of this nation are not designed to fix black problems and this is why the government has thus far been so inept in solving racial socioeconomic inequality. White people do not see this. To me it is so obvious. The solution is that government policies cannot be one size fits all. Until the government can create policy sized and based upon the condition in the black community, these racial inequities will persist. I am not suggesting that the government stop addressing whites most common needs and concerns, what I am saying is that the government needs to do both….but doing both is not built into the majority rule construct of the system. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 785 Registered: 01-2005 |
AG: How? Tell us 5 things government, or people (white and black) should do to address these problems. | ||
Gibran Member Username: Gibran Post Number: 716 Registered: 02-2007 |
AG ---generalizations hurt all people...how can one use "white people" or "black people".. you have very good points but you lose many of those who want real change when you want a separate system...we tried that...what anyone wants is dignity and opportunity...the key is letting go and having empathy....understanding of another is the key...we all have bias and experiences, but to generalize takes away from individualized human dignity... while one size doesn't fit all and the reality is that it appears on the surface to favor a eurocentric view but that is not always true. Resources are there, sometimes when they are not you have to create them. Letting someone else define your ability to get resources is an obstacle....Finding new ways securing loans and developing new opportunities through EDUCATION and Respect is the best way... I know that many people would rather see equality and justice than separation. I know many people who would rather walk the streets of cities without fear and with fellowship. It is not a majority value or minority value....white or black...it is finding a common denominator: hope and understanding... It starts with letting go and developing a sense of self that is respectful self and to others....there are two common cultural links....how we care for our elderly (keeping it safe and secure for them) and how we see our children....when you respect our most vulnerable then you can respect others. That should be the core value....regardless of circumstance. Letting go of blame and hate is difficult with out immediate results....but it is fear and hate that enslaves most...opportunities frees....we need all groups to carry on a better dream. When you measure who gets what and how ...that perpetuates the cycles of mistrust. I would rather see real and serious debate and respectful forums on the issues... sorry for the lecture...I tried to stay out of it....but I do have a wish for Detroit, or wherever, there is misery and poverty...break the old barriers and work together.... Justin Dart got the ADA passed as both an insider and a advocate...It wasn't easy but it was a start...Civil rights for all was just a start, it isn't finished until all see the value of a strong society...not a separate one. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 668 Registered: 11-2006 |
In conclusion, we are the cow people. --------------- NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!••••••••••• That was so good. I am scared of us. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 198 Registered: 06-2007 |
3rdworld, you offered some good criticisms. I jumped on the jail issue as it is another form of a failed solution to deal with problems in our society. Another failed concept within our societal construct is the idea of a 'level playing field'. There is no such thing. It is a waste of money (as you mentioned) especially in regards to education. As Accra mentioned, if the government gets involved then they will prescribe a cure all for the majority. We all know however, that we are not all created equal. For us to pretend that we can educate all of our children the same is a hopeless waste of time and energy. So to say that it would be illegal to graduate a child that cannot pass basic tests doesn't really address the problem with education in our country regardless of race. It would be more productive to teach children up until highschool the same curriculum and held to the same standards and let specialized high schools compete for the kids that would fit best into their program. I.E. a highschool geared towards vocational training, technological schools, even schools geared towards medicine or in research and development...etc. A level playing field doesn't capitalize on each individuals specific talents and prowess. | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 263 Registered: 07-2007 |
Seperation will never occur. That is the most lamest concept ever brought to the table by the anti-white movement. What are you going to do if you ever get seperation? Are you going to forcibly take my wife from me? About my child, are you going to cut him in half. I am a peaceful man but if you dare disrespect my love, I will not be so peaceful anymore. Those that preach this seperation crap are those that feed this crap to people with weak minds in order for them to remain leaders. No matter how lame their movement is. i.e. NOI Seperation of the races is equal to slavery when it comes to the family unit. Are you advocating this? If so, then what does this make you? The new Massa? Tis racism crap is upsetting to say the least. the good rev (Message edited by revaldullton on July 15, 2007) (Message edited by revaldullton on July 15, 2007) | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1835 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: There are poor whites all over the country. There are also millions of blacks that are well-off. We tend to have a depression era notion of poverty in this country. Back in those days, most poor people were like everyone else, they truly lacked opportunity and services. They were capable of and willing to work but there were no jobs. This is not the case today. Yes some jobs are low wage and may pay less than Welfare, but they are a stepping stone to something better. You get skills, experience and a good work ethic going and you will move up. Today, many people are in poverty because of bad decisions they have made. They may be underage and have kids, they may lack any marketable skills because they dropped out of school. These are self-inflicted wounds. Folks in poverty today by majority have a roof over their head, many have cars, most have cell phones, TV's, DVD players and computers. In terms of health issues, instead of hunger we have obesity. What you our I or the government can do about their plight is therefore limited to some extent. We may have compassion and want to provide opportunity for them like Gibran suggested but if they are in no position to capitalize on it then what? Do we have to physically take them by the hand and force them to do something about their situation? Or, to put it coldly, do we let them face the consequences of their actions which will FORCE them to reconsider the path they are on? The fact is that sometimes when you provide a big safety net, more people will fall into it. I am not saying just cut everyone off, but when people know they will pay a price for doing counterproductive things, they might change. quote: Not necessarily. I would argue that many reps from Michigan in the house and senate at the federal level have failed to represent the interests of Michiganians yet they are re-elected almost automatically. Incumbents are very tough to un-seat. Carl Levin comes to mind. He might be well meaning and a nice guy and all that, but can we say he has done wonders for our state? No. We still pay more to the federal govt in taxes than we get back in services, what has he done to reverse this? Not much. Will he be re-elected until he decides to retire? Yes. quote: It is not the role of government to remedy socioeconomic inequality but to provide a level playing field so there is OPPORTUNITY for all. We cannot guarantee positive outcomes for all people, particularly if certain individuals fail to do what is necessary to help themselves. I do agree that the government has made some bad decisions in regard to trade and immigration that have had an impact on workers and minorities in particular but that is another subject altogether. The latest assault on the US auto industry by left wingers in Congress is not going to help either. I don't want to get into left vs right bickering here so I won't. At any rate, the plight of the inner city has been with us regardless of the state of the economy as a whole. It goes beyond economics. quote: Again, you cannot legislate equality. If folks in poverty are waiting for the government to solve their problems then they are in for a long wait. The "War on Poverty" that started in the 1960's is still not over and has bloated our federal budget to the point of being unsustainable. The grim reality is that many entitlement programs will need to be scaled back, not increased. The public is losing confidence in these programs by the year as they are not seen as successful. Quote from Kwame Kilpatrick: "We have come to a point in our community where this is no outside conspiracy doing this to us," he said then. "This is us killing us. This is mostly African-Americans killing African-Americans and we, as a community, have to stop it now. Nobody's coming to save us." I think he is on to something. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on July 15, 2007) | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 29 Registered: 07-2007 |
I think the first thing that people should realize is that the government CAN solve these problems. When I say solve…. I mean align black/white socioeconomic conditions. Poverty, crime, unemployment and such will never be totally eradicated, but these egregious socioeconomic discrepancies between blacks and whites are a stain on this nation. The US essentially helped to rebuild Europe via the governments “Marshall Plan”. The government also helped to rebuild Japan. The government got involved to ensure that America lead the space race. The government instituted the “Philadelphia Project” to create the first atomic weapon. The government can do many things if it has the will and the backing of the people. America has simply not developed the will to really solve black problems, which is not surprising because people used the government to create them. Again, black people still live in the land of their oppression…. with the same “entity” that oppressed continuing to dominate and run the nation. White people used to be so egregiously and emotionally racist in this nation that contemporary whites feel they are “cured” in comparison, but that is far from the truth. Just because whites are much better than they used to be does not mean that don’t still have a ways to go. And no I am not saying ALL white peoples, as people ALWAYS try to obfuscate and misdirect the debate as inferring. Even at the height of slavery ALL whites were not racist in America…yet, slavery still flourished. Thus, the fact that all whites are not racist today does not change the nature of the debate or conclusion. People keep asking me WHAT the government should do or WHAT should be done. That is not an honest question. What you are asking is what can be done THAT YOU WILL AGREE TO. You see, again I point out; whites have VETO power over any black idea. If a black representative in congress introduced a House Resolution that would create policy that I see as a solution, when it came up for vote it would have to have the approval of representatives who are representing whites districts and if they did not approve it would never pass. So again, its not what should or could be done, its what whites will allow to be done. In light of that, the only plan that whites will approve is a plan that they see a potential return on investment (ROI) to them. I don’t think that many whites are willing to invest into anything black, that’s not sports and or entertainment, with the expectation of a ROI. No one wants to invest money in a company that they will never make a profit. By the same token, many people feel that it is a waste for the government to spend money on attempting to solve black problems because society will never see a ROI. America does not invest in black people because America, ie Americans, are not confident in the natural abilities of black people unless they are boxing, shooting a basketball, running track or running backs. PerfectGentlemen, You insult me by treating my like a fool. Is it because I am black or is it because you lack knowlege or both? Don't attempt to try the okey doke on me....Ok? The black rate of poverty is nearly 3 times the rate of whites. The black rate of unemployment is nearly 3 times the rate of whites...black wealth is 10 times less than whites....per capita income, family income, infant mortality, homicide....... all thise metrics are egregiously disproportionate. However, you want to obfuscate that point by noting that there are many whites in poverty to. Funnny....when you conservative type want to talk about welfare participation....you never try to make the argument to equalize whites with blacks in the phenomenon....the same is true for out of wedlock births....I never hear whites complaining about the rate of whites attempting to suggest that the problem is equal as that with blacks. If you retort with another ignorant obfuscation I will no longer respond to you. (Message edited by accraghana on July 15, 2007) | ||
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton Post Number: 264 Registered: 07-2007 |
Lets stop beating around the bush with formal writing and the usual bs. That was an honest question and you are skirting it with your eloquent writing and I firmly believe your separtist movement will never be happy until you come out on top over this so called white america you keep taking about. There, you got my thoughts. You will not be happy until you are able to punish white america for crimes against your ancestors even though it was your ancestors that perpatrated this so called pecular institution in the first place. This garbage you preach will only end in devestation for both of the races. both of my people and I ABHOR YOUR THOUGHTS AND ASPIRATIONS. the good rev the good rev | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 199 Registered: 06-2007 |
AG, the government can't do shit. Hoping that it can is futile. That being said, You mentioned earlier that you would rather be discussing economics. O.K. then what about this ROI you are talking about as it portends to small community based banks. Forget about the government making an investment in the general population, we've already established that they cannot, nor will not serve the needs of anyone other than corporate america. Is it conceivable that black americans can establish businesses through community savings and loan institutions? 'Manhattan' not Philadelphia. That was a movie about some time/space continuum thing. (Message edited by Jb3 on July 15, 2007) | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 597 Registered: 07-2006 |
The Marshall plan: throw billions of dollars and a lot of technical expertise at rebuilding factories and homes in Europe. Japan post WWII: throw billions of dollars and a lot of technical expertise at rebuilding factories and homes in Japan Space race: throw billions of dollars and a lot of technical expertise at physics problems. Manhattan project: throw billions of dollars and a lot of technical expertise at physics problems. These are hardly fair comparisons to the black socioeconomic plight, a very complex problem that is not a straightforward math problem like those involved in space flight, atomic bombs, or building loads. It's not a problem you can throw billions of dollars and a lot technical expertise at (although we already have), particularly when that expertise is ignored because it came from a white man. As for using the government to create the problems, how do you explain that? Are whites using the government to get blacks to kill each other? or steal? or do drugs? or have children out of wedlock, and then abandon them? How exactly was the government involved in creating this problem? Your racism is showing through by restating our requests for your suggestions as requests for suggestions that we will agree to. You put words into our mouths that we DID NOT SAY, and ASSUME we are not being honest. How is that any better than a white person assuming a black man is going to steal his wallet? Not exactly a healthy start to any solution, if you ask me. I'm sorry to say, your arguments are getting worse, AG. (Message edited by scottr on July 15, 2007) | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 200 Registered: 06-2007 |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P hiladelphia_Experiment | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1836 Registered: 03-2006 |
Government solutions have been tried, they have failed for the most part. Billions have been spent and the ROI was the further decline of the inner city, crime, illiteracy, resentment, dependency and a sense of entitlement. I guess until some specific proposals can be put on the table we cannot have a discussion on what would be "agreed to" or not. We could hand 100 grand to every black person in the country I suppose, because I don't think we have enough land to make good on the 40 acres and a mule idea. The fact is if people do not have the skills to manage the assets given to them then the money will be gone a year later with little to show for it. The United States didn't invent slavery, but it was ended at the cost of over 600,000 American lives. Slavery has existed all over the world and still does today in some countries. Black people in America are not former slaves, their ANCESTORS were. Young black men in 2007 were not hosed down in the streets of Alabama by Bull Connor (D), but their parents might have been. White people in America were not plantation owners but their ancestors might have been. White folks today are against segregation but their fathers and grandfathers might have been for it. All these things are in the past. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed, the Great Society programs were launched, Affirmative action was instituted, all at the behest of minorities and done WITH THEIR TOTAL PARTICIPATION. White people today by majority want minorities and the poor to succeed, there is no rational person that doesn't want that. Unfortunately what we have is mis-directed resentment towards people that never oppressed anyone by other people that probably haven't been oppressed but think they have been because they are at a lower socioeconomic level, which they clearly see as someone else's fault. I am at a loss of what to do about that I guess. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 786 Registered: 01-2005 |
OK, AG doesn't have any answers either. Now we're getting someplace. No wonder there's little chance the situation will change. (Unless of course everyone listens to Bill Cosby. He has answers. Cut the sociological BS and let's start listening....and implementing.) I feel like the little kid who shouted out that emperor has no clothes. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 1837 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: Don't concern yourself, I am done with this discussion as it is going nowhere. I enjoyed it for the most part until the point where the inevitable name calling began. BTW, the Marshall Plan may have given Europe a new start, but it was their hard work and determination to rebuild their societies that allowed it to succeed. | ||
Accraghana Member Username: Accraghana Post Number: 31 Registered: 07-2007 |
You all have just inadvertently proved my point. Only white ideas will move forward as black ideas that don’t meet the approval of whites will go nowhere. You all are convinced that the government cannot facilitate this desired change…but what if you are WRONG? You assume you have all the answers but 300 years of your rules and ideas HAVE NEVER PRODUCED EQUALITY FOR BLACKS. You don’t have a good track record in regards to your motivation. You don’t have a good track record in regards to your performance/treatment of blacks. Studies show that racism in hiring and housing is alive and well. Yet…. you forward the idea that you have the best interest of blacks at heart and that your ideas are what is best for blacks? That really does assume an awful lot of ignorance on the part of blacks. What are you afraid of? How about just allowing blacks to come up with policies to be implemented by the government to see with the resultant will be? They cannot be anymore of a failure than 300 years of white racism. Someone hit the nail on the head when they said Europe and Japan investment worked because they were industrious people. Black people are viewed, and always have been, as non-hard working, intellectual or industrious people. That is standard racism 101 and that is why America, white America, see any attempt by the government to be a wasted effort or a permanent subsidy as blacks are simply inherently unable to keep pace with whites. Statement like that proves my point more than anything I could ever say….and I appreciate the candor. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 669 Registered: 11-2006 |
Accra says: "If you retort with another ignorant obfuscation I will no longer respond to you." ---- One can only hope. |
