Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2007 » Poor Police Response In Royal Oak Twsnshp. « Previous Next »
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Granmontrules
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Username: Granmontrules

Post Number: 125
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Glad I don't live there - sounds like people getting shot all over the place and the cops not responding! I am much safer in my area of Detroit.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070717/M ETRO/707170399&imw=Y
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 1125
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 1:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ROT is a pretty bad place if you ask me. Someone needs to annex that, they are unable to take care of themselves there. They have no police force, and it doesn't appear any sort of code enforcement ever goes on. Problem is, I doubt anybody wants to take it.
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Quinn
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Username: Quinn

Post Number: 1405
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think I would ever know there was a Royal Oak Township (I thought this was about Royal Oak when I first started to read), furthermore I'm surprised by what the township is and how it's split up into two. Odd.

I'm waiting for someone to make the argument that it's because Detroit sucks that these shootings happened, and within the same breath say that Detroit is insignificant.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 1165
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I'm waiting for someone to make the argument that it's because Detroit sucks that these shootings happened, and within the same breath say that Detroit is insignificant."

I thought it was odd that the Detroit News felt it necessary to report the demographics of Royal Oak Twp in the paper this morning...
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 1126
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 1:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, there is one significant number in those demographics.

Rentals: 2,595, 80%
Owner-occupied: 435, 17%

Always a recipe for a crappy neighborhood when barely anybody there has any vested interest in the community whatsoever.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 6231
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 1:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

R.O.T. Now that's spells Royal Oak Township. A long time ago those Hasidic Jews who lived their once northern part of the township along 10 mile and Greenfield area want to be part of Oak Park and the annexation was approved and later the Apts just north of the industrial complex succeeded from R.O.T.

Now the population is dropping and Oakland County has a south small black ghetto that looks like Highland Park and Mayor of White Detroit L.B. Patterson is shaking his racist head about the brothers killing broth---I mean the black on black crime on R.O.T.

I say annex the what's left of the township to either Ferndale or Oak Park and maybe the get some community improvements.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 1127
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah Danny, I'm not sure about all the LB Patterson stuff you said, but someone should annex it so the residents can at least have a police department. It's obviously a failing township, and totally unnecessary for it to be independant. The surrounding communities would benefit from cleaning it up.
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 230
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 1:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quinn, it isn't two sections anymore. That News graphic is out of date. The section at 10 Mile and Greenfield was annexed by Oak Park a few years ago. The reason the township has the borders it has is that every other part of its original 36-square-mile area (bounded by 8 Mile, 14 Mile, Dequindre and Greenfield) incorporated or was annexed into a city at some point. There was a pretty in-depth discussion of this on the forum not too long ago.
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Steelworker
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Username: Steelworker

Post Number: 932
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 2:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ive heard its dangerous there but I go to the kroger in ROT so hard to tell considering its only about 5 blocks
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 6233
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well then, a long time ago all of R.O.T. was a 6x6 mile farming township with a small village of Royal Oak until lot's of newly free blacks came to settle there just off of 8 Mile Rd. since the 1850s making it Oakland County's first black community. When Detroit was annexing townships a part of the Automation industry. White-folks who settled in the site built faming communities don't want be next to black community along the base line Rd. or being annexed to Detroit. So White folks petition the Michigan Legislation to incorporate their farming communities into fewer independent villages and then to cities. First it was Royal Oak, Then Ferndale, Pleasant Ridge, Huntington Woods and Hazel Park. By the 1950s Oak Park and Madison Heights became cities leaving the southern portion of the black community and the northern portion of Hasidic Jewish community R.O.T. all alone. Then the Hasidic Jews who lived on the northern portion of R.O.T. want to be annexed to Oak Park and was approved and the Apts. next to the R.O.T. ind. complex has been annexed to Oak Park. R.O.T. is now a instant black ghetto on the verge of gobbled up by either Ferndale or Oak Park if the wanted too.
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Lizaanne
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Username: Lizaanne

Post Number: 97
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danny - that is all fascinating. I graduated from Ferndale High in '83, and the Township was always known as a truly bad place, and absolutely no place for a young white girl to go. But that's all I've ever known about it. Interesting to know some of the history there. Thanks!

~Liza
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Hybridy
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Username: Hybridy

Post Number: 114
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

isn't there a large percentage of section 8 housing all over r.o.t.???
i'm thinkin somewhere in the vacinity of wyoming and 8 mile
i believe there is a state police mini station right there too
where were they?
its so close to ferndale and oak park which both seem nice and safe
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5807
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As has been mentioned, the northern section of the township was just recently annexed by Oak Park, essentially cutting the population by half, and who knows how much of the tax base. The last part really does need to be annexed by one of the neighboring municipalities to aleve the burden on the inadequate township board. IMO, there are quite a few townships that need to be merged with neighboring municipalities, and this is definitely one of them. Municipal reform in Michigan is long, long overdue.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 1133
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think there's a choice here Lmich. The township a "failed state". Question is, who'll take it? If Ferndale takes it, the current residents will scatter when they find out how much they have to pay in property taxes. (Considering its 80% rentals, I guess it would be landlords scattering) On the other hand, many of the houses in the area are pretty nice brick homes. The insides may be trashed from years of renters, but the outsides don't look too bad. Might be a worthwhile community to get a hold of if you can clean it up.

By the way, check out their sweet website.

http://www.royaloaktwp.com/
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Dustin89
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Username: Dustin89

Post Number: 55
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If anybody is going to annex the rest of ROT, I bet it will be Oak Park. Although it would probably hurt Oak Park's image and would put a lot on their plate. I don't see Ferndale annexing ROT-what would be the benefit for them?
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1838
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's that thread that was mentioned above, with some history and maps of ROT:

Royal Oak Township Disappearing...?
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Yvette248
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Username: Yvette248

Post Number: 736
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

About two years ago, ROT became hot property for real estate investors buying and flipping properties. I bet in 5 years, it will be just as good as their neighbors if the trend continues. I agree that they should be annexed as they don't have the tax base or size to exist on their own.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 3253
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've never heard of RO Twp. until now. How is there a township government in such an urbanized area of Oakland County.

I gotta do some wikipedia reading...
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 1135
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 5:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"About two years ago, ROT became hot property for real estate investors buying and flipping properties. I bet in 5 years, it will be just as good as their neighbors if the trend continues. I agree that they should be annexed as they don't have the tax base or size to exist on their own."

Yvette, where did you hear that? Flipping doesn't really work well in an area with an 80% rental rate. Plus the neighborhood is far from "up and coming" or desirable at all. Sounds like those would have been some failed flips.
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Yvette248
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Username: Yvette248

Post Number: 738
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 5:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Village of Beverly Hills (next door to Southfield)
Bloomfield township
Village of Lathrup Village (sic)
Grosse Pointe township
Grosse Pointe village

They're all over the place.....
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 1136
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 5:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.time.com/time/magaz ine/article/0,9171,826587,00.h tml?promoid=googlep

An interesting article from Time Magazine in 1960 about ROT. Seems not too much has changed, other than they can now go to Ferndale schools.
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Frumoasa
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Username: Frumoasa

Post Number: 38
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great article. It's really depressing that so little has changed there. I remember a few years ago and probably to this day, Royal Oak Township addresses and phone numbers are not in the South Oakland phone book. There is just a blank, even though all neighboring cities are covered. It is truly an invisible place in the eyes of the state and I hope that someone will step up and annex them. Ferndale is a good fit because the children already attend Ferndale schools, but Oak Park is also a good fit because they previously annexed the northern portion of the township.
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Hpgrmln
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Username: Hpgrmln

Post Number: 47
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As far back as I can remember, the Township has been included in the phone book.Many of the addresses are listed as "ferndale" though, since they have a Ferndale ZIP code.It would be feasable for Ferndale to annex it because of that, but then it would completely and utterly be seperated from the northern half annexed already by oak park,meaning they will never again be part of the same community.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 3387
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Time Magazine article helps explain the topic of these threads:

https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/62684/65003.html

https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/76017/85992.html
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 3259
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well that's not a long list, Yvette, and a Village is not the same as a Township. With GP Village I think you meant the Village of GP Shores, the other GP municipalities are cities. GP Township is about 50 residents who live north of Baseline in GP Shores.

Bloomfield Twp. is a sprawling area and not urban. 10 years ago it was a solidly outer-ring suburb, so it's not strange to me that it's a township.

This is all semantics, but the point is, RO Twp. is in a weird situation.
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Steelworker
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Username: Steelworker

Post Number: 933
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are public housing on wyoming in ROT and also an old theatre on 8mile near wyoming. ROT does have some decent shopping options like krogers and a decent strip mall. From what I notice the houses are not too bad looking. They have an abandoned township hall on wyoming aswell. There is a large multi story apartment building behind the krogers its i think 7 or 8 stories. Beware if anyone goes to check it out make sure you stop at the stop sign at the city limits (near OakPark) on wyoming. Its well known to have OakParks finest camped out their all day.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 948
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 12:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danny, I'm not sure I'd peg this on the county since the residents are demanding that the county sherif take over policing duties from the MSP.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 1146
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It seems like ROT has serious financial troubles, and has for a long time. They had to disband their police, and they even had to cut shifts from the County police patrols.

My question is, if they are a Charter township, that means they have to pay a Charter, right? What happens if they cannot afford to pay?
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5812
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, to charter a township simply means to make it into a de facto city. They were only created to reduce the power of incorporated cities around the time people began to flee from city to suburb. A charter essentially gives a civil township a lot more protection from annexation by incorporated cities. They have to provide, or contract out, certain municipal services that civil townships, don't, but also without the tax burden of a municipal city. In other words, they are a form of municipal government where you can essentially eat your cake, and have it too.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 1171
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, a Charter Township is unique to the state of Michigan.

"In 1947, the state legislature created a special charter township status, which grants additional powers and stream-lined administration in order to provide greater protection against annexation of a township's land by cities and villages"

So this was basically a Michigan thing to let areas not be annexed by Detroit, wasn't it?

"A township with a population of 2,000 or more may incorporate as a charter township and become a municipal corporation, which possess all the powers of a non-charter township in addition to those specified by the Charter Township Act of 1947."

I wonder what would happen if ROT's population fell under 2,000? It's pretty close now, after it's northern portion was annexed.

"A charter township is exempt from annexation from contiguous cities or villages providing that the township meets certain requirements:

Has state equalized valuation of at least $25,000,000
Has a minimum population density of 150 people per square mile (58/km˛)
Provides fire protection service by contract or otherwise
Is governed by a comprehensive zoning ordinance or master plan
Provides solid waste disposal services to township residents, within or without the township, by contract, license, or municipal ownership
Provides water or sewer services, or both, by contract or otherwise
Provides police protection through contract with the sheriff in addition to normal sheriff patrol, through an intergovernmental contract, or through its own police department
However, the charter township may still be subject to annexation under certain conditions, such as for the purpose of eliminating isolated islands of township or by vote of a majority of the residents of a portion of township."

So that's why the northern portion was subject to annex by Oak Park. Either it didn't meet those requirements, or fell into the "for the purpose of eliminating isolated islands of township or by vote of a majority of the residents of a portion of township" category. Interesting.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 1172
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Danny, I'm not sure I'd peg this on the county since the residents are demanding that the county sherif take over policing duties from the MSP."

The County Sherrif is more expensive than the state police. From an Oakland Press article after the incident:

"However, it appears the township can't have both - its own identity and adequate police protection. Keeping its own identity comes at a high cost - a high crime rate and more serious crimes, such as Sunday's shooting.

More adequate police protection - because of the township's poor financial condition - would probably cost the community its identity. It would have to merge or be absorbed by one of the surrounding cities.

It may be tough for residents to admit, but realistically, there is no choice. Trying to maintain your identity as a community but fearing for your own safety is a ludicrous situation.

In fact, you have to wonder how important "identity" really is to residents. It's almost unfathomable to think they would forsake the safety of family and friends for such an abstract value as "community identity."

If Royal Oak Township can't find the funds to finance full-time police coverage, then it needs to be dissolved. "

http://www.theoaklandpress.com /stories/071807/opi_2007071818 2.shtml
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5816
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lodge,

I believe that once a township is granted the status it can't be taken away, and that the requirements are only for making new charter townships.
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Hpgrmln
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Username: Hpgrmln

Post Number: 49
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 11:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Youre forgetting another township in an urban, dense area: Redford. Technically, it's still "the Charter Township Of Redford". Not from that area but still thought it was fair to bring it up.
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 2:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I believe that once a township is granted the status it can't be taken away, and that the requirements are only for making new charter townships."

Actually, a township can return to General Law status. At least one township in the Grand Rapids area did this when they discovered that the Charter Township annexation loopholes could leave the township more vulnerable to annexation than if they went through the State Boundary Commission. However, I don't think a township would automatically lose charter status if it went below 2,000 resident. That's only a threshold for establishing a charter township.

"GP Township is about 50 residents who live north of Baseline in GP Shores."

Actually, the portion north of 8 Mile/Baseline is Lake Township.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G rosse_Pointe_Shores,_Michigan

"This is all semantics, but the point is, RO Twp. is in a weird situation."

Weird, yes but not unique. As someone else noted, Redford Township is an urbanized township. Elsewhere in the state, Lansing Township is split into 5 pieces and 4 of the 5 are as densely developed as the adjacent cities of Lansing and East Lansing (one portion is farmland owned by MSU). Kalamazoo Township is another multi-piece township. It's even odder than RO Township in that the township offices sit on an island of township land completely surrounded by the cities of Kalamazoo and Parchment. The township is in at least 3 or 4 separate chunks although they are much larger than either RO or Lansing Township. Most of Kalamazoo Township is fairly urbanized and most people don't notice when crossing the boundary between the surrounding cities and the township.

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