Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2007 » 30 Years Ago, Downtown « Previous Next »
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Krapug
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Post Number: 60
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For better or worse, this July marks a lot of discussion about the Detroit Riots of 40 years ago (the same discussions are occuring in Newark as well).

What event occured back in July of 1977 (30 years ago), that continued the decline of downtown, and foreshadowed what was announced in July of 1982 (25 years ago).

Ken
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Bulletmagnet
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Post Number: 848
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colman Young?
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Quozl
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Post Number: 995
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Warren City Council endorses Anita Bryant's crusade against gay rights?
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Detroit_stylin
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Post Number: 4417
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CLosing of Hudson's Downtown
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Krapug
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Post Number: 61
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your both WAY off.

Keep trying.
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Krapug
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Post Number: 62
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 5:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit -stylin:

Your getting warmer, but the July 77 "event" was not about Hudson's.
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Quozl
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 5:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit city workers go on strike?
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Quozl
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Post Number: 997
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Supporters of 2 nurses, convicted in Detroit of poisoning patients in 1975, demonstrate. Nurses are free pending sentencing.
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Iheartthed
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Post Number: 1200
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ren Cen?
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Johnlodge
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Post Number: 1236
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

July 1977 - Crowley's closed it's downtown location.

July 1982- Not sure. I was going to guess Hudsons's, but that was January of 1983 that it closed.
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Detroitplanner
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1977 came the opening of RenCen which sucked the life out of Downtown streets and office buildings.

I can't recall definitely, but it would not surprise me if the Crowleys was closed about that time period. Wiki seems to agree with me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C rowley's

Dammed my fact checking!

(Message edited by detroitplanner on July 20, 2007)
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Krapug
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Post Number: 63
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, a few of you got it.

July of 1977, Crowley's closed their downtown store. They actually had been warning of the closing since '74, but held on as long as the could. When asked to comment back in '77, Hudson's stated it was still committed to downtown, but, they were also monitoring the situation, and shrinking the selling space to make the store more efficent.

July of 1982, is when Hudson's made it official that downtown would close early in 1983 after the Christmas Season of '82.

In both Detroit and Newark, the riots did not cause widespread damage "downtown", there was some, but the damage to both downtowns would occur in the years after the riots when businesses of all types fled the areas, and took the jobs with them.

Ken
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English
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Post Number: 551
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Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 9:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And now, both stores are out of business. Those Detroiters born in 1977 (like me, 30 this year) have some memories of Crowley's and Hudson's, but not downtown... those born 10 years later in 1987 (20 years old) remember Hudson's.

Those born in 1997 (10 years old) will very likely not remember either chain, as my students call the stores Macy's with no prob.

Thanks for the legacy, elders. We didn't start the fire. We were just born among the ashes. :-(
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Yelloweyes
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Post Number: 153
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Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bussing. Cross city bussing to integrate schools. This might have been the number one reason for population decrease in the city.
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Danny
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Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There was that famous Knights In Satan's Service concert at Cobo Hall. They made a rock song Detroit Rock City.
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Eric_w
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Post Number: 274
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crowley's was another nail in the coffin so to speak. Before that and the riot there was an incident that scared a lot of people and affected the downtown area:A security person at Hudson's downtown was stabbed to death trying to apprehend a shoplifter in the downtown store. numerous shoppers witnessed the murder. The story made national news & made a lot of folks afraid to shop downtown. After the riots it got worse and by the 70's it was terrible. Then in the mid 70's there were black gangs roaming the freeways attacking motorists. A young white woman was abducted from a freeway after her car broke down by blacks,held in house somewhere for days & repeatedly raped by dozens of black men.Then there was the infamous AWB concert at Cobo when black gangs went through the crowd beating & robbing people forcing the band from the stage. The melee spilled out on the streets & several white girls were raped by blacks. All these added to Detroit's decline. There's a long list of things that contributed to Detroit going down the tubes.
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 4420
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's funny because though was 11 at the time that the Downtown Hudson's closed I don't have any memory of ever being inside that store...
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Mauser765
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Post Number: 1714
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

" have some memories of Crowley's and Hudson's, but not downtown..."

Well, at least you have the benefit of knowing a Downtown that is so new that its unknown to lots of the folks who used to populate the "old" Downtown. They wouldnt recognize the place now.

My mother and my mother-in-law both used to work Downtown, shop at Hudsons, eat at Sanders etc.

They both keep asking me what "Campus Martius" is.

Hahahaha !
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Lilpup
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Post Number: 2470
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My mom grew up in and worked in the city, my dad grew up just north of it. Every time I show them something new or that's changed they tell me, if they remember, what it was like before.

We learn from each other.
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Citylover
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Post Number: 2497
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In psychobabble the term I am using is called the elephant in the room. The elephant (that few talk about) in this room is crime. Crime is what caused the downfall of Detroit from thirty years ago.The riots were forty years ago.

Stores don't close for no reason.Husdons closed because crime was bad around the store. Eric w righly touched on the subject without naming it_ crime.

Betty Deramus wrote a great pice some years ago which I can no longer find online about how little the city had changed the year following the riots. She listed all things going on. The roostertail and the playboy club, masonic and cobo, the gold cup room, and the river house and the top of the flame.............in fairness to accuracy there is still a lot going on in the city. However there can be zero doubt that crime has been the major nail in any coffin regarding Detroit.
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Detroit_stylin
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Post Number: 4421
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And people coming into the city to support aspects of that crime right CL?
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Citylover
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Post Number: 2498
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whatever. Trying to allude or imply that I somehow "contributed" to Detroit's demise and out of control crime problem of the seventies and how it affected the city is erroneous and frankly rather dumb.
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Detroit_stylin
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Post Number: 4424
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nope...not sayin you singlehandedly did....but you did however contribute rather significantly
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2882
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cities don't suddenly develop massive crime problems unless there are already dysfunctional characteristics.

quote:

In psychobabble the term I am using is called the elephant in the room. The elephant (that few talk about) in this room is crime. Crime is what caused the downfall of Detroit from thirty years ago.The riots were forty years ago.



Detroit's decline began with riots SIXTY-FIVE years ago, the Great Migration, systematic discrimination, and a massive policy upheaval that changed the physical infrastructure of the city. By 1970, Detroit had already lost hundreds of thousands of residents, so blaming Detroit's demise on the high crime rates of the 1970s is flat-out wrong.

I'd be willing to guess that Hudson's closed the downtown store simply because it wasn't profitable--similar to department stores in many other large cities.
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Paulmcall
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd like to see how many people on here (who used to live in Detroit) actually left because of crime.
Count me and also my parents. They were both held up separately by armed robbers and we also had our houses broken into.
To say crime wasn't a major factor in people leaving after the riots is baloney.
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Lilpup
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Post Number: 2474
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Detroit's decline began with riots SIXTY-FIVE years ago


It began shortly after WWII, well before the later riots, but not due to the wartime ones.

Industry started moving to greener rural and suburban pastures (less expensive land) - jobs went with them. Only then did the city start losing the tax base needed to fully staff and provide full services.


(Message edited by lilpup on July 22, 2007)
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Eric_w
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Post Number: 276
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Stores don't close for no reason.Husdons closed because crime was bad around the store. Eric w rightly touched on the subject without naming it_ crime. "
Since we are touching on it the fear of crime is a big big factor. Often when people talk about coming to Detroit one question almost always asked: Will I be safe?. This isn't true with NYC, Chicago or LA. When the city hosted the Super bowl and baseball All Star game there was a lot of talk to downplay Detroit's image of a crime ridden city. The mere fact it had to be talked about indicates the problem and perception is real & there

I say a lot of folks in the city ignore it,tolerate it and some even embrace it. Look at past issues- the fireworks debacle in 1991 or 92. White people getting the hell beat out of them in plain sight of TV cameras and many so-called Detroit leaders siding with the thugs. During one trial a suburban lady who was victimized was laughed at & mocked by many on black radio. When a white suburban man was car-jacked & murdered in cold blood on Detroit's east side a judge refused to sentence his killers to prison though that's what the law required. The judge was a hero to many blacks in Detroit. Hayward Brown a common killer was considered a Robin Hood by many in town. There's more than these too. A lot of Detroit's problems are of Detroiter's own making. Some things are better but the stains of the past still need to be cleansed.
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Citylover
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Dan it aint flat out wrong. I don't rely on academic sources to tell me what I saw with my own eyes and ears. While the things you mention are factors; crime is the biggest factor. Detroit population peaked in the 50's several years after the '43 riots. Detroits population did shrink beginning in the 50's and never really stopping............but so did every other big city. And until recently those cities kept, for example, downtown dept stores_ Phila, NYC,P'burgh, Chi, NYC had downtown dept stores well into the 1990's Detroit did not.

Thanks for giving more examples Ericw. The east side case you refer to happened in the 80's.The victim was from grosse pointe.The shitheads that killed him threw a tree limb across the street (jefferson) then killed him because they needed.............his car to get to a party........ I remember it fairly well.

The judge was Dalton Roberson.Apparently he had a "distinguished" career. I find that hard to believe if he could sentence these killers the way he did_ how could he face himself morally?

The appeals or supreme court ordered him to change the sentence.........but why the hell should they have had to order him to do anything he should have done it to begin with.Hopefully those assholes are in prison or dead preference on dead. Btw they had criminal records.

Stylin I thought I made it fairly clear my so called " contribution" was neglible.Unless you call driving in stopping at someones house buying something hopping back in my car significant_ I don't. Significant is assault, murder, rape, vandalism, beating up old people, robbing someone with a weapon............do ya need more?
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Skamour14
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Post Number: 99
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

killers are a real good band ya know? why would danny talk that bad about kiss???
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2884
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 6:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Sorry Dan it aint flat out wrong. I don't rely on academic sources to tell me what I saw with my own eyes and ears. While the things you mention are factors; crime is the biggest factor.



So the crime wave of the 1970s spontaneously started on its own???
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D2dyeah
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Post Number: 61
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I still lived in Detroit and worked downtown in 1977, and while it was a little run down, it was still a good city to live in. There were clubs, events, stores to shop in, and honestly I don't remember the crime being that bad. People still went out at night and partied downtown, trust me!! And, you could still get a cab!!!
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Rsa
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Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

dan; don't waste your breath. cl believes that crime is the end all be all when it comes to detroit's downfall. you'll never convince him otherwise. it's been years and years of people trying to have a discussion with him otherwise, but he still likes to bring out his soapbox every once in a while.
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Detroitbill
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Post Number: 276
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Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of Detroits major problems was how it dealt with the crime, quite simply it didn't, it was allowed to fester and was tolerated , then masses of residents moved out, not willing to stay . Many other cities dealt with similar issues at the time and survived relatively well, Why? ....because the crime problem was addressed effectively by both the governing administrations as well as the residents in the neighborhoods, people all didn't just pack up and leave, they held tight. There was little help for the residents by the city administrations to effectively help them keep their neighborhoods strong. There were several neighbourhood groups who held their own security monitoring and did fairly well with that ( north east and north west side areas) however over time the commitment wained due to a lack of participation.
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Goat
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Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 3:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Every single person (and I mean every single one) that I know that does not frequent Detroit always ask if Detroit is safe or if this or that area is safe. Some who have never been to Detroit say they never will because of the crime. They don't say that about any other city they have been to or want to go to. But with Detroit they always ask or "know" that is isn't safe.

I am with CL on this all the way. Perception is everything and if people preceive that Detroit is unsafe they will not go to the city regardless if it safe or not.

D_S enough with the badgering of CL. It is what it is and I am sure CL did not have that big of an impact as those who continue to shoot and kill with no regards to human life.
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Lefty2
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Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would say that the introduction of CRACK cocaine and the subsequent violence and movement of people in the outlying areas freaking out about the associated violence would definitely be the No. 1 contributor to the decline of the last 25 years.
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Urbanize
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Post Number: 1841
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Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I would say that the introduction of CRACK cocaine and the subsequent violence and movement of people in the outlying areas freaking out about the associated violence would definitely be the No. 1 contributor to the decline of the last 25 years."

That's likely what contributed to the decline of neighborhoods like Fox Creek. They called that area Crack Alley back in the day.

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