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Rb336
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Username: Rb336

Post Number: 757
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like the idea of an express from ferndale to pontiac stopping at the zoo, Northwood, B'ham, Sq. Lake and then downtown pontiac, with a local that would stop every .5 miles
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Upinottawa
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Post Number: 917
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Note: one would expect service from Pontiac to Detroit to be commuter rail like the proposed AA-DTW-Detroit line. It is unlikely that it would be light rail (express or otherwise).

About Washington: I loved the system there, but it was surprising to see how dark the stations are.

(Message edited by upinottawa on July 24, 2007)
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 1219
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The ceilings in the Washington stations make me nervous. I feel like there might be a possibility that one of those things could fall off and crush someone, but it is nice to look at. Two things I would change about DC's train is 1) get rid of the carpet, 2) use the money saved on the carpet to operate the train 24/7.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2905
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^Actually, that's one of the measures proposed by new Metro GM John Catoe (formerly head of bus operations for LACMTA). The carpet cleaning costs way too damn much, and they're looking at a non-skid vinyl (similar to Boston MBTA).

I just wish the trains ran a bit later on weeknights. It costs about 1.5 million or so per year to keep the system running another hour (essentially three trains in each direction per hour on each line for late night service).
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Transitrider
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Username: Transitrider

Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

TRU meeting begins in an hour and a half.
From their website:

TRU Summer Meeting - Tuesday, July 24 - on the role of transit in Detroit's revitalization

Come to TRU's big summer meeting, focused on the role that rapid transit can play in urban revitalization and economic development.

Urban, mixed-use development near transit is the hottest real estate market for young and old alike. Come learn about transit-oriented development and its potential in greater Detroit’s revitalization.

Plus - hear success stories from other cities about overcoming hurdles to developing a rapid transit system and opportunities to get involved in spread the transit message.

Tuesday, July 24, 2007, 6:30pm in the Guardian Building lower mezzanine, 500 Griswold, downtown Detroit.
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Tetsua
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Username: Tetsua

Post Number: 1274
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a reminder that the public input session will be at WSU welcome center from 5 - 8 today.
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Tetsua
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Username: Tetsua

Post Number: 1275
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Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here goes the run down from the public meeting in regard to the light rail starter lines. I was pleasantly surprised to hear from one of the reps, that the plan to start construction the first line could be in 09 (Best case scenario). These meetings are set up to get the publics input on which route will be the starter line. Woodward going from the CBD to New Center will be included regardless of if Gratiot, or Michigan ave are chosen for the starter line. There is also the option to Build the starter line along Woodward from the CBD to 8-mile, but Mich ave, or Gratiot would not be included. There was mention of "Feeder" buses traveling toward the first stop of the system (which will help to make this more pedestrian friendly).

They said that the specific mode of travel (Lrt, Street car, or BRT) will be selected by this October.

Toward the end of the meeting someone mentioned the expanded people mover plan, but didn't go into too much detail. I personally forgot about this plan, but it seems as though it's moving forward.
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Tetsua
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Username: Tetsua

Post Number: 1276
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also this website has all kinds of cool information about this project.

http://www.dtogs.com/main.html
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 3509
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

They said that the specific mode of travel (Lrt, Street car, or BRT) will be selected by this October.


Almost correct. The four major alternatives--not the two presented in the quote--are:
quote:

* No Build Alternative
* Transportation System Management Alternative

* Bus Rapid Transit Alternative
* Fixed Guideway Alternative (light rail transit, streetcar, peoplemover, heavy rail, etc.)



It's always better to be up front.

On account of the obvious fact that there's no likely funding for the 40 to 50% of the capital costs that the Feds won't fund, it's an exercise in advocacy and not much else.
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Cabasse
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Username: Cabasse

Post Number: 51
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 1:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

man, i was at the tuesday meeting in the guardian's mezzanine and i was swearing to myself that this one guy in the front left corner absolutely had to be livernois. he was angry, and the lone voice of opposition in the crowd of 50+. "telling developers what to do? that's BULLSHIT!"

anyone else make that meeting? i was the younger guy in the green polo who came late and sat in the back.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 3510
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 2:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why would anybody waste his time attending a public meeting over a project that will never be funded? And this one will be run by DDOT? The same agency that had some 30% truancy (absentee) rate for its employees. So, to fix this, they eliminated routes and decreased service a couple years ago.

They expect to run even more ambitious projects, in addition to whatever they're supposed to be operating already? Yeah! That'll happen. In all probability, it's just another study/task force funded by the taxpayers for the primary benefit of those conducting the study.

And a "crowd" of 50+! Why so many?
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Tetsua
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Username: Tetsua

Post Number: 1277
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 8:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

he was angry, and the lone voice of opposition in the crowd of 50+. "telling developers what to do? that's BULLSHIT!"



I swear this same guy attended the meeting I went to. The people giving the presentation looked like they were tired of him before he gave his statement.
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 332
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 10:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So if Woodward is included, regardless, why doesn't everyone just vote for Gratiot or Michigan so we get both?
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 333
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 10:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just read into some info on the FTA website. It said that if Gratiot or Michigan were chosen, the Woodward Line would only extend to Grand Boulevard. Leaving Hamtramack and Highland Park and northern areas of Detroit like University Common in the dust, waiting for future expansion. What would you choose now that you hear this?
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Swede1934
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Username: Swede1934

Post Number: 25
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Several of you commented on the number of stations slowing down a LRT vehicle along Woodward. The old streetcar system had stops about every 1/4 mile, but if no one was waiting and no one signaled that they wanted to get off, the vehicle DID NOT STOP, but continued on to the next station. I rode enough cars along Woodward, speeding along at 45 MPH and making no stops all the way from McNichols all the way out to 7 Mile. The same was true beyond 8 Mile out to 10 Mile, before that extension was destroyed by the dummies in the DSR.
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E_hemingway
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Post Number: 1271
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 11:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Went to the WSU meeting. Quite encouraging. The city is really laying the ground work for this well and quietly. I'm not only surprised at how little attention this process is getting from major media outlets but how little DDOT is doing to hype this.

Building the Woodward line is a no brainer, and building it all the way to 8 Mile would jump start a ton of development on the corridor, especial north of Grand Blvd. However, one of the people who got up to speak made the point that the city should also build out the Michigan and Gratiot lines, too, so it would be easier to bring in more suburbs. That's a great idea. Maybe not fully build out those lines, but do some starter tracks out about a mile or so from downtown. That way it would be easier to extend them and incorporate more suburbs into the system.

A lot of stars are lining up for Detroit to make this happen. Major players of the business community (Karamos, Gilbert, Ilitch, Henry Ford Hospital, Farbman, the Big 3) are pushing for a rapid transit system. Many of the democrats (the Levins, Conyers, Dingell) in Michigan's congressional delegation hold big positions of power and would be able to make things happen as far as funding. The governors office and state House are controlled by Democrats who endorse expanding rapid transit. A major local player (Hertel) is seriously working on transit here. The laws that make the funding mechanism possible were passed last year. The public is ripe for endorsing such an idea with gas prices so high. If the Detroit/Dearborn/Hamtramck/Hig hland Park coalition of DDOT got the ball rolling with this, many of the suburbs would start falling over themselves to get in on it, too.
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Rbdetsport
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Post Number: 336
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with you on that. One starter line is going to make the whole Tri-County area fall over and push for mass transit to Pontiac, the Airport, Monroe, and Mt.Clemens. These small steps forward are just setting the framework for a major transportation system.

That is a great idea though. Do the whole Woodward Line while starting a Gratiot and Michigan Line. With the Woodward Line extended to 8 mile, I am positive that at least Birmingham would have it extended too.Tetsua, can you elaborate more on how the People Mover extension is making a lot of progress?
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Rugbyman
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Username: Rugbyman

Post Number: 112
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 12:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A problem with all of these routes occurred to me the other day while waiting for a bus on Woodward during rush hour. Ever notice how people insist on trying to force their way through the intersection on left turns off Woodward during rush hour and invariably tie up traffic moving the opposite way for one or two light changes?

Specifically, I was at Woodward and Mack and people turning left from SB Woodward to Mack were pretty much just parked in front of on-coming traffic and tied things up for multiple light changes. No one got by. After waiting nearly 20 minutes and having NO buses pass I finally said screw it and boarded the one bus that came by in that period (a DDOT bus running to State Fair).

Given that LRT operates at street level (albeit in a dedicated lane), should we really expect that the trains would be able to move any better along their routes than the buses currently can? Don't get me wrong, I'm really pumped at the prospect of "for real" mass transit coming to Detroit, but given that Detroit drivers are cavalier toward regarding traffic laws (to say the least) would the level of service really increase over what's already offered by SMART or DDOT?
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Tetsua
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Username: Tetsua

Post Number: 1280
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Tetsua, can you elaborate more on how the People Mover extension is making a lot of progress?



I can't really elaborate too much, other than I was told they're moving forward with the logistical stuff. Since this wasn't the project they were boosting, I didn't figure they wanted to talk about it too much.
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Swede1934
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Post Number: 27
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In answer to your question, rugbyman, back in the 50's I believe left turns were not allowed from the streetcar track lanes. Because of this, and the fact that busses had to move in and out of curb traffic, the streetcars were actually faster that the "express" Greyhound Suburban that ran along Woodward at the same time.
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Parkguy
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Post Number: 74
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Up until the late '80s, I think, none of the major spoke roads allowed left turns during rush hour. The center lane, originally used by streetcars, was reserved for inbound traffic in the morning, outbound in the evening. When I first moved to the city in the late '70s, that fact was very clearly explained to me by an officer of the law who pulled me over as soon as I made a left turn from Grand River. Enforcement was tight in those days.
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Patrick
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Post Number: 4734
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's going to take a hell of a lot more than a mass-transit line to help Highland Park.
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Jsmyers
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Post Number: 1911
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WRT the 3 possible alignments being considered...

(http://www.dtogs.com/f/DTOGS_T hree_Alignments_Map.pdf)

I advocate Woodard, but to get the most impact for Detroit redevelopment and visitor attractiveness (both things that will help the city over the long-term), I think that both Gratiot and Michigan LRT should be installed at least out to Corktown and Eastern Market (maybe Mack).

In addition, bus service has to be rationalized and improved, even when it is not feeding the trains. We need bus stops that have route and schedule information on them! There is also no reason that buses should be running on parallel streets one block apart when the frequency is so low. (Best example of this is the Woodward, Cass, 2nd, & 3rd Cass Corridor bus routing.)

One more thing: Somebody who attended one of the meetings said that another thing discussed was downtown routing.

What do you all think is the way to go? (I have my view, but I'll wait to share it.)
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E_hemingway
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Post Number: 1272
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In a perfect world, the downtown routes should me much more simplified once the new bus station is finished. But then again, this is Detroit...
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Johnlodge
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Post Number: 1344
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 3:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If a Woodward route can eventually link up with Ferndale, and then jog off down Main street to Royal Oak, I think you would have yourself a serious night life entertainment crowd making great use of that train. How great it would be to go out to all three of those cities in one night, and then walk home when you're done. Fantastic.
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E_hemingway
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 3:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If they were to extend it up to Royal Oak then they would take it out to downtown Birmingham, too. Oakland County will clamor for that extension if a light rail is built, a big but not insurmountable if, up Woodward to 8 Mile. L Brooks might not like light rail but he knows that billions of dollars in new development follow those lines when they are built.
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Emu_steve
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Post Number: 421
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I tried to scan these posts.

Couple of my ideas based on D.C. heavy rail system:

1). I'd expect to see a lot of driving to the terminus where folks would hop out of their cars and board a rail car and head downtown.

2). As is the experience with the D.C. system, housing near the stops is highly desirable. E.g., if they put a stop near WSU's South Village that increase the desirability of living there (and working or attending events downtown).

3). The original D.C. model, as I understand it, was to funnel workers to and from downtown Washington. A 3 line configuration (Woodward/8 mile -> downtown, Michigan Ave. -> downton and Gratiot -> downtown would work much like D.C.'s system (circa '76).
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Iheartthed
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Post Number: 1238
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think anything past Ferndale should be serviced by commuter rail.
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Trainman
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Post Number: 459
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 6:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In 2006, It was the lack of SMART and DDOT bus schedules and late DDOT buses on Plymouth Road
and over 100 complaints at Livonia City Hall that was among the reasons why SMART left Livonia. DARTA and it's supporters did more damage then good by supporting an UNfunded mandate to merge operating budgets by contracting services using false propagandas to get the voters to believe we can get more federal transit grants with their agreement. DARTA and their supporters including the TRU refused to debate mass transit leaders and relied on confusing the public by telling fairy tale stories of how mass transit works in other cities instead of fixing real life problems right here in Detroit.

DARTA cancelled many meetings believing that Livonia will keep SMART. At the meetings they did have, they ignored very obvious problems that needed much attention.

Yet, many of the DY'ers still post that it was the voters of Livonia that did not want SMART.

It was not.

There is new evidence that SMART is coming back and I'm presently leading this effort with industry support to get Livonia back into the W.C.T.A. This will require the work of many dedicated individuals to help SMART and DDOT officials make good use of our limited transportation tax dollars.
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E_hemingway
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Post Number: 1274
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I think anything past Ferndale should be serviced by commuter rail.



Don't look at it like riders of the line will start at one end of the line and then travel to the other. A vast majority will travel between two relatively short distances. Think someone getting on at Ferndale and going to New Center or someone getting on at downtown and going to Wayne State. Too short for commuter rail but just the right distance for light rail.

Although a light rail and commuter rail along the Woodward corridor, say between Pontiac and downtown, may seem redundant, it's not. Some riders will want to only travel a short distance while others will want to make the long trip between Pontiac and Hamtramck. Giving commuters choices on a clean, efficient system is what will make it successful.

On a side note, at the meeting someone brought up making the line accessible for people riding bikes. The planners said there would be specially designated spaces on the rail cars or buses for bikes worked into the planning. Hearing details like that helped reassure me that they're serious.
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Dougw
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Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed. Also, if a light rail line is built from downtown to 8 Mile (or Ferndale), there will be strong demand in Royal Oak and Birmingham to have it continue up to Birmingham. I imagine a lot of people along Woodward would use such a line to hop from Ferndale to Birmingham, and from Royal Oak to Ferndale, etc., in addition to riding to downtown Detroit. Especially when you consider all three of the cities have their own downtown restaurant / entertainment / shopping districts.
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Tetsua
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Post Number: 1287
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Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the 8 mile option would be the best for the starter line. Ideally though it would be good to the line going from Dearborn along Michigan ave to the CBD,and then from the CBD to 8 mile. This would Involve U of M (Michgian ave route), and the Northern burbs.
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 12:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My concern with a line up Woodward is that they would put the Royal Oak station on Woodard instead of Main Street, when really a station would be much more useful on Main street. Unless the station was around where the Gateway Plaza is being built, where Main branches off Woodward. But even then it would be quite a walk to RO downtown proper.

Around where the current Amtrak station is would be a prime location.
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E_hemingway
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Post Number: 1277
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Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 2:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A Woodward line doesn't have to stay exclusively on Woodward. It can make short jogs to one side or the other of the corridor. Making one of those short jogs to go through downtown Royal Oak would be ideal and expected with any Woodward light rail line. I think they would explore the possibility of doing something similar to connect Hamtramck.
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Laferle
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Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The jog into downtown Royal Oak could easily reconnect with Woodward down Sherman Dr, which was an old rail right-of-way that served that exact purpose in years past.


http://maps.google.com/maps?f= q&hl=en&geocode=&q=n+sherman+d r&sll=42.491261,-83.155003&ssp n=0.008418,0.022058&ie=UTF8&t= h&z=15&iwloc=addr&om=1
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Hudkina
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Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 9:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The furthest a light rail line should go along Woodward is to Birmingham. Once you get north of Big Beaver Rd the density is way to low to support light rail. Everything north of Birmingham could easily be serviced by commuter rail along the tracks.

And as far as light rail connecting to downtown Royal Oak, it could travel along Washington Ave and Sherman Dr. But if the station were placed at Woodward and Lincoln Ave, the walk wouldn't be that far. Woodward is less than half a mile from Main St along Lincoln Ave.
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Parkguy
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Post Number: 75
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Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 9:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is my take on Saturday's transit study meeting in Dearborn.

After the DARTA fiasco, DDOT moved to begin the process of setting up a "new system" under a special federal funding category. This has to be done by an official oversight body (DDOT, in the absence of a true regional oversight body). DDOT's official service area includes Detroit, Dearborn, Highland Park, and Hamtramck. Thus, any plan they come up with will have to stay inside those boundaries.

There are several existing transit plans: Detroit's, SEMCOG's, the state's, and the Regional Transit Coordinating Committee (RTCC). The SEMCOG plan, and to a certain extent the state plan, incorporate Detroit's transit plan almost exactly. According to the project people answering questions today, all of the proposed rapid transit corridors in this project will mesh with the regional plans when the time comes to expand into Oakland, Macomb, and the rest of Wayne Counties.

[NOTE, not entirely from the meeting: RTCC existed before DARTA, and has primarily existed to funnel federal funds to individual transit groups, like DDOT or SMART. Now that DARTA is shot down, RTCC will become the oversight body for regional transit. They have restructured over the last few months, and are now moving toward that goal.]

This is the second stage in the design process. The first stage identified several transit corridors for study, and this stage has narrowed it to three from which to select the first line to be built. The three are: Woodward from Downtown to Eight Mile, Michigan Avenue from downtown to West Dearborn plus Woodward up to New Center, and Gratiot Avenue from downtown to Eight Mile plus Woodward up to New Center. So, all three include lower Woodward.

The options for service type: (1) nothing beyond what we have now; (2) an enhanced version of what we have now; (3) Bus Rapid Transit (train-like busses in dedicated lanes or busways, stopping only at stations, priority at intersections); (4) streetcars; (5) light rail.

The comment period for this stage of the study ends Aug. 21. A choice for corridor and type of service will come as early as November, then design work will begin. The timeline for construction to begin is 2010.

I apologize if I misinterpreted any of this-- I'd appreciate more info if I got some of this wrong.

The citizens who made comments today were very thoughtful and enthusiastic for the project, and all expressed frustration with the current state of transit in the region.
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Parkguy
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Post Number: 76
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Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One more thing: one of the displays at the meeting compared Detroit to other cities regarding population, density, miles of built transit lines (three miles in D!), miles of expressway, transit ridership, etc. The Detroit region has much higher density, population, and ridership than nearly all of the other cities in the display. It really makes me doubt the density arguments against a transit system for Detroit.
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Elsuperbob
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Post Number: 17
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 11:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Comments can be sent to DDOT until August 29.

DDOT
1301 E. Warren
Detroit, MI 48207
(Attn: Tim Roseboom)

or to TimRos@detroit.mi.gov

I was also at the Dearborn meeting. Though I would like a Michigan/Woodward alignment, the numbers of current ridership loose out to the other two alignments. Though with plans for a new Inter-modal center in Dearborn and potentially a stop on a Detroit-Ann Arbor route that could possibly up ridership.
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Parkguy
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Post Number: 77
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 8:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry I mistyped the comment deadline. It is indeed Aug. 29.

Michigan Avenue has other plusses-- many more institutions and business areas, including the mostly-undeveloped Clark Street business park, UM-Dearborn/HF Community College, shopping, along the need to develop the Detroit-Metro-Ann Arbor corridor. Gratiot has Eastern Market area, City Airport, and a community college campus. On that one I'm going by the printed materials. I'm much less familiar with the east side. Frankly, it is too bad that only one can be chosen. We need a full blown system yesterday.

One of the URS representatives said that their presentation graphics should be posted online soon. URS is an international engineering company that has done many streetcar, light rail, and bus rapid transit projects. Here's a link to a list of recent projects, including Boston BRT, Portland streetcar and light rail, London Underground, Minneapolis Hiawatha line.
http://www.urscorp.com/URS_Div ision/projectsListing.php?serv ice=95&section=0602
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 1283
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Parkguy: You're right. The supposed low-density of Metro Detroit is a myth. Check out:

Density Vs. Transit

http://metromodemedia.com/feat ures/Transitdensity0020.aspx
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Hudkina
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Username: Hudkina

Post Number: 32
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Metro Detroit actually has one of the densest urban centers in the country, especially for a city that isn't hindered by natural barriers. (e.g. Miami, San Francisco, Los Angeles).

In 2000, Detroit's urban core had about 3.5 million people in a 1,000 sq. mi. area. The only other regions that compare are New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, Philadelphia, and Miami. Even cities like Boston and Washington had smaller populations in a similar area.

In the 1970's when the core of Metro Detroit was at its peak population, it had nearly 3.5 million people in a 600 sq. mi. area. In 1970, only New York and Chicago had more people in a similarly sized area. Not even the city of Los Angeles had that population density at that time.

The idea that Metro Detroit is low-density is one of the biggest myths about the region. Because of the generally flat landscape, it has one of the densest built environments in the nation, it has one of the largest grid systems in the nation, and it is probably one of the easiest regions to implement an elaborate mass transit system.
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 1284
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^Amen brother (or sister). Metro Detroit's spoke system of major arteries readily lends itself to an efficient mass transit system.
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 78
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 11:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've seen studies that show that population density gradually migrates to fixed-route transit corridors. Great examples of this are in suburban Virginia (DC Metro) and Portland, OR. Less capital-intensive feeder lines continue to run in less-dense areas.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 463
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, July 30, 2007 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote

Parkguy: You're right. The supposed low-density of Metro Detroit is a myth

End of quote

E_Hemmingway, the high cost of mass transit in southeast Michigan is NOT a myth. It's a fact that our transit taxes are much higher then in Chicago, New York and Toronto. Until our transit providers can provide a decent reliable service that that the taxpayers want and are willing to pay then obviously increasing transit taxes will not work.

Unfortunately, we have people like E_Hemmingway around that promote tax increases without any just cause but to provide more money for useless transit studies and pay raises for incompetent transit officials that don't even answer their phones.
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 1286
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, July 30, 2007 - 6:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Trainman: Although I completely disagree with just about every bit of unsubstantiated garbage you post, I do admire your absolute, unrelenting focus on this subject. Yes, you are a one-trick pony, but you have perfected your trick. At first I was annoyed by your constant one-dimensional posts. I have since moved beyond that and I am now absolutely fascinated with them. So much so I wonder if you go home at night and tell your kids about the evils of the high costs of Metro Detroit's mass transit system and how Daddy is fighting the good fight to lower those costs and bring the buses back to Livonia.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 464
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, July 30, 2007 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On November 27, 2006 I lost the bus service I won for myself and hundreds of others by working hard at getting SMART officials to come to Livonia and post bus schedules and provide early morning service. I supported the property tax more than anyone but unfortunately this tax replaced both state and federal transit funds without any alternative funding and facilities. This is discrimination and it is immoral and also against the law. This is why Livonia residents are now required to pay the same tax as surrounding communities and also why SMART no longer fully qualifies for federal transit grants for the low-income and minorities until they return to Livonia. It is exactly why SMART is working to come back.

My family is supportive of my efforts. The reason I slashed your post is you don’t attack my viewpoints or challenge them at all but instead post facts that are irrelevant to justify any further tax support. Just because we have the conditions to fill up the buses does not mean that transit tax proposals will actually work to improve our area. The answer is much competent and moral leadership that makes the most and best uses of our limited tax dollars. The DARTA agreement was immoral because it was an action that omitted qualified legal funds essential to coordinate two public transit systems. This is well documented in my website and is the basis for my civil rights complaint against SMART.

I welcome SMART back if they listen to the public and are able to compete in the world marketplace by getting much more industry supports. The support is there in Livonia and they will know this because of people like myself who truly care about others.

When I rode the bus, I often looked out the window at the Rosa Parks bus and looked at the seeing eye dogs and the minorities and I know the truth. And the truth is that God is the one who put me on the bus and gave me the money to pay for not just myself but for some of the other bus riders also.

I do appreciate your comments because we are all on the same side despite our different ideas. The best ideas come from all of us putting all our thoughts together and all working together for the common good of all. I see much hope at getting a world class public transit system because Detroit is a world leader at moving people and I’m sure a city that can put the world on wheels can also fill up the buses at a cost comparable or lower than any other city in the world. E_Hemingway, we need people like you to publicly attack people like me and everyone else in the mass transit industry and challenge us all to provide the facts. I welcome this and thank you for your posts.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 572
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 12:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only part of anything Train says that needs refuting right now is the idea that metro Detroit pays anywhere near the same amount locally for transit as any of the other cities he mentioned: Toronto, Chicago, New York.

Per capita, the tri-county region pays about a fifth as much for transit as the average of those three regions (though in the case of Toronto it's hard to make a comparison because the tax structure is wildly different).

There can never be really good transit in this region so long as it is entirely bus based. No other big-city region does it that way, precisely because it is not efficient. It would be like trying to move motorists around just on the mile roads without the freeways.

Train makes a good point about inefficiency, particularly as regards DDOT. DDOT, as is widely known, has unusually high operating and maintenance cost for its fleet size, and the City needs to work on that. But even if DDOT was a paragon of efficiency, our local transit systems would still, bluntly, suck.

Incidentally, if we look at all North American urban regions with populations between 4 and 6 million, the average such region has 225 miles of rapid transit corridor, just so you know what our competition looks like.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 466
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 6:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no excuse for the high per passenger costs of SMART and DDOT. The managers of these systems should be fired for the loss of Livonia.

Livonia residents are the transit supportive and welcome both SMART and DDOT.

It was the neglect to listen to the public and respond to new technologies to acquire industry support that caused the bus service reductions.

Also, it was the false propagandas of DARTA and it's supporters especially the TRU that helped caused the loss of a thousand customers. A single regional transit authority does not get more federal money and is not more efficient.

And Yes, my transit tax is higher then my counterparts in other cities and I prove it using FTA statistics.

I pay more in Livonia and I get less.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2918
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

There is no excuse for the high per passenger costs of SMART and DDOT.



Actually, there is. As Professorscott stated above, DDOT and SMART run obscenely long bus routes due to the lack of rail transit. I believe the average trip length on SMART is 11 miles.

Buses nearly always have much higher operating costs, on a passenger mile basis, than rail (see the FTA's National Transit Database) Much of this is because buses, with their moving parts, require far more maintenance, and vehicle capacity is far lower than rail. For example, a single subway train could easily carry the same number of people as 24 buses. A light rail train of just two cars has the same capacity as six buses.

Those pennies per passenger mile add up in Detroit.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 468
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem is that Lansing will no longer allow SMART to pay any operating costs which caused a disparate impact on the low income and minorities. If transit funds were evenly dispersed according to need, services rendered per community and ability to pay then I would agree with the logic that SMART justifies their high costs.

There is just simply no excuse for the high costs and serious lack of mass transit leadership in Lansing period.......
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Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman

Post Number: 469
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In addition, this is not the 1950's. We have advanced computers that can move buses through traffic bypassing traffic jams and we can build bus only roads much the same as cities all over the world. Our state leaders just won't invest in mass transit unless it is high speed and/or luxury rail at this time.

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