Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1225 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:15 am: | |
Bars going bankrupt? Talk about "the sky is falling". I might buy it if Ontario hadn't already banned it, because that's really Detroit's only competition with this. Smokers aren't going to stop going out because they can't light a cigarette, and if they do then this smoking thing is a bigger problem than we all thought! Smokers in Michigan will do just like they do every where else where they have already banned it... Smoke outside. Most nightclubs and bars in NYC allow you to smoke right outside of the door and come back in without having to pay the cover or wait in line again. And I don't sit in a restaurant or a casino or nightclub with my car idling next to me in a closed environment. That argument about cars causing more pollution really isn't comparable. |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 1297 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:21 am: | |
One thing to note about Windsor and the smoking ban.. Many of Windsor's bars have outdoor seating, so in the summer it is really no sacrifice. It seems not too many of Detroit's establishments have this. I worry more for Detroit than the state of Michigan as a whole with this law. |
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa
Post Number: 922 Registered: 09-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:30 am: | |
Maybe the proposed law would encourage the opening of Detroit bars with plenty of patio space. Just imagine Woodward lined with cafés making Detroit a true Paris of the Midwest.... |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 1298 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:32 am: | |
Actually not a bad idea, forcing people outside a little Downtown. Hehe. You have to love going down to Fox Town on any given weekend. The streets are chock full of parked cars, all the establishments are packed to the brim, yet not a single person to be seen on the sidewalks. |
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1228 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:35 am: | |
^I noticed that when I was in Detroit earlier in the summer. |
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa
Post Number: 923 Registered: 09-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:45 am: | |
Detroit: where going downtown means locking yourself inside a secure building. |
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn
Post Number: 453 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 11:49 am: | |
i think actually as johnlodge pointed out, this might have an unforeseen benefit... people outside (yes, even smoking) is a GREAT thing... also, i only foresee this really changing the way things run at "classier" places... i'm SURE bars that don't card non-regulars (LJs, Anchor Bar, Temple Bar, etc...) would really care if anyone smoked... police coming in and busting smokers would be the LEAST of those bars' worries... (possible underage drinkers) |
Motorcitydave Member Username: Motorcitydave
Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 11:52 am: | |
You know, I still can't believe this "ban smoking" argument keeps coming up, I just don't understand why there needs to be a BAN??? Why not just encourage people to open smoke-free bars?? Seems simple enough to me. (by the sounds of some of these arguments, they will be HUGE money makers...) |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 1302 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 11:52 am: | |
I don't know Andy. Some do-gooder whiner will call up the state and report it. Especially since, like in Ohio, they'll force the owners to put up those signs that give a number to call if the law is being abused. |
Ferntruth Member Username: Ferntruth
Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 11:56 am: | |
quote: "Sorry Udmphikapbob, I think the article might be referring to certain behavior practiced by gays that can have deadly consequences. Perhaps not cancer, but maybe HIV from "second-hand gay"?" Yes, because the breeder fucking hets NEVER contract HIV. Where are you at, Karl? 1986? HIV = a Gay disease was long ago debunked. The fastest growing segment of people contracting HIV (according to the CDC) is young women of color, but hey why leet a fact get in the way of a good stereotype, eh? |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 1303 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 11:57 am: | |
"breeder fucking hets" Geez. This is what I get for my acceptance of different walks of life. |
Revaldullton Member Username: Revaldullton
Post Number: 535 Registered: 07-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 11:59 am: | |
I apologize but , your barbecues, suvs,buses,household trash all bother me and the 2nd hand effects of the toxins released by all of these are damgerous. I want them all banned. the good rev |
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field
Post Number: 749 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:08 pm: | |
Actually, LMich, i just heard on WDIV a few weeks ago, that studies show that smokers are much less likely to get Parkinson's disease for whatever reason. Now who knows if this study was "influenced" by the tobacco companies, lol. Not that that is any reason to smoke. Smoking is just assinine. It is a foolish crutch for very weak minded people. I'm sick of seeing cigarette butts all over the ground. One day in the future, hopefully smoking will be banned in this country. We are SLOWLY advancing as a society, and eliminating smoking is one step in this advancement. |
Searay215 Member Username: Searay215
Post Number: 3 Registered: 04-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:21 pm: | |
If smoking is not a problem in public places then why won't the legislators allow smoking where they work? In every state where smoking was banned in restuarants, business actually increased. Having a no smoking area is like saying we have a no peeing area in our pool. |
Karl Member Username: Karl
Post Number: 8854 Registered: 09-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:24 pm: | |
Motorcitydave: You don't get it. The goal of the Dems is to put Big Tobacco out of business. That is too radical to put forth to Americans who are used to their freedoms, but check out this line from Mind-field's post above: "One day in the future, hopefully smoking will be banned in this country" Sound like nanny state to you? Brought to you by the party of "tolerance" Next stop: Big Oil. |
Gmich99 Member Username: Gmich99
Post Number: 210 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:49 pm: | |
Karl, I don't know if you've noticed but big brother is a lot bigger after 12 years of Republican rule and a radical Republican president. It is hard to argue against the health issues of cigarettes, but how can we seriously argue for healthy air air in vice establishments that promote gambling and drinking. Clean air for gambling addicts and drunks? Of course there is the argument that when played or used responsibly gambling and alcohol won't kill. But in reality bars and casinos aren't exactly havens for responsible vice. Perhaps a ban on smoking in bars and casinos is not the best idea. A ban limiting smoking at specific classes of dining establishments, or limiting it during normal dining hours (as opposed to bar hours), or some other hybrid that allows for the reality of smoking in bars and restaurants in a country where it is still legal and relatively cheap, while addressing the very real health issues smoking can many times force onto other customers, would make sense and provide a victory for both sides (even if a bit one-sided). |
Dds Member Username: Dds
Post Number: 281 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:49 pm: | |
We all know how well Karras Bros has done smoke-free. The Metro Times rated them the best non-smoking bar in Detroit. Wait. They closed. New owners I think. And smoking. Hmmmmmm. |
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 805 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:26 pm: | |
Karl: I respectfully disagree that the Dems want to put the tobacco companies out of business. The states, and MI in particular, want (and need) the tobacco companies to prosper. The states have one of the largest financial interests in seeing them do well. The "tobacco settlement" money is critical to MI's financial recovery. They couldn't run the state w/o it. Basically, the states are the most hypocritical entities around. They bargained away their rights to sue the tobacco companies for health care costs engendered by smoking, for the promise of large amounts of money over a period of years. The tobacco companies of course passed that cost along to their customers. It was an indirect way for the states to tax tobacco and they avoided flac from smokers on election day. Had the states (mostly Dems)wanted to put the tobacco companies out of business, they could have imposed taxes which would generate the equivalent of the amnounts paid by the settlement. THEN they could have sued, and had they won, it would have bankrupted the tobacco companies. The last thing the state wants is for the tobacco companies to encounter problems which might diminish the state's income from the settlement. |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 348 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:31 pm: | |
Dds, I hope you are not a dentist...That establishment closed because the option to smoke was still available...If smoking was not an option everything would be equal. Do people really think and want to argue that bars would suffer? Smokers WILL NOT stop going to bars if smoking becomes banned. I would argue that attendance would not decrease. It didn’t decrease in NY/LA and all the other cities that were wise enough to implement this policy. If NY, LA, Boston, and a million other cities can successfully ban smoking in public; why not Detroit? Is this what we want our city to be know for…Detroit, the city that stood up for smokers rights were the average age expectancy is 58.5. Hey, all you other smokers in the US, move to the D and we will welcome you with your very own oxygen tank and Zippo. If we don’t change with the times we will continue to slump. I love the idea of café style bars/restaurants all along Woodward. With the smoking ban in place people would flood the streets to smoke. A vibrant sidewalk is a key element to a city…It gets people excited to be around. Crowded sidewalks instill a “want to participate”, community type of feel, and more importantly a sense of SAFETY. We all know the D can use an image boost in the area of safety. |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 349 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:35 pm: | |
Gmich99 great observation... "I don't know if you've noticed but big brother is a lot bigger after 12 years of Republican rule and a radical Republican president" Repubs, stick that in your pipe and smoke it. Err as long as you are at home or in your vehicle that is. |
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 172 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:41 pm: | |
Quote: "Someone needs to develop a special helmet for all smokers to sport" No, you need to not dwell on others behaviour and mind your own business. Again, if you don't like the smoke in a bar, don't go in there. It's ridiculous, go in a bar where there are many smokers as there always has been and start complaining. Nobody is twisting anyones arm to go anywhere. You aren't required to be in there. You go in there by choice. Don't like it? Don't go. Some of you act like you were abducted and taken to a bar and forced to breathe second hand smoke. You have a choice. And if that choice affects the bar owners receivables, he will then change it for your trade. I doubt that he would. Have to keep something in mind: While your favorite bar is a great place to hang and meet up with your mates, it's also someone's business. If you had a business, would you like it if your patrons that don't buy all that much complained about your patrons that did? And then lobbied for laws to get them thrown out? |
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3823 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:50 pm: | |
Two good reasons to ban indoor smoking: Folks that work in bars and restaurants will not have to breathe secondhand smoke. Folks that smoke will congregate outside and develop a sense of solidarity, and maybe this will lead to increased participation in politics. |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 353 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:51 pm: | |
I think there are way more non smokers then smokers...what do you guys think? Sst, are you saying bars would loose money if this were to happen? If so, never mind, the other threads lay out that argument clearly. Sast, are you a smoker? Wold you stop going to the bar if it were to become banned? |
Psip Member Username: Psip
Post Number: 1978 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:02 pm: | |
Divide and Conquer is alive and well in Michigan and the US. ME, ME, ME is the chant of the day. I personally can't stand the smell of micowave popcorn. OUTLAW it! Put them in prison. |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1986 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:20 pm: | |
Defend, I will argue with you that bars will suffer. Infact I have posted in response to an earlier post that approx 150 bars in NY have closed since the ban and many have reverted back to smoking. People love to speculate on a how business is doing, especially bars, but if you never owned you have no clue. |
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336
Post Number: 798 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:27 pm: | |
I can't recall where I read this, sorry. I have heard that the smaller restaurants/bars had more problems than the ones owned by large companies I try to smoke responsibly, don't litter the ground with my butts, don't blow smoke at others, etc. I still think use of good, efficient HEPA systems is the best option. |
Diehard Member Username: Diehard
Post Number: 75 Registered: 03-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:31 pm: | |
I'm getting SO tired of that "if you don't like it, don't go there" argument. If my favorite band is playing at the Magic Bag, don't tell me I should stay home because it's more important that nicotine addicts get to stink up the place. A bar/restaurant is NOT set up primarily as a house-o-stank, it's a place to socialize. Many people go there to play pool, listen to music, or just hang out with friends. Some - gasp - don't drink or eat greasy food. And with nonsmokers making up 85% of the population, that's pretty arrogant of smokers to act like they own the place and can choke the rest of us out of there. Flip it upside down: If you (smokers) don't like being denied your "right" to stink up a room, YOU can simply step outside for five minutes to get your Vitamin N, then step back inside, where it's bearable for everyone and your eyes won't sting after a half-hour. Somehow smokers think that's just soooo unfair? I'm also getting tired of that "Nanny State!!!!OMG!!! They're banning everything!!!!" crap. Give it a rest. Nobody gives a damn if you kill yourself; this is about the people around you. |
Patrick Member Username: Patrick
Post Number: 4731 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:33 pm: | |
Yay for the Washington. Nothing better than having them tell us what to drive, what to smoke, and what to eat. |
Diehard Member Username: Diehard
Post Number: 76 Registered: 03-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:37 pm: | |
Ah, there it is again. |
Sturge Member Username: Sturge
Post Number: 46 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:38 pm: | |
As much as I hate cigarette smoke, I think it should be up to each individual establishment to decide if they want smoking or not. I'm with you on the microwave popcorn too. Man, I hate when someone cooks up a batch at the office. |
Dds Member Username: Dds
Post Number: 282 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:44 pm: | |
sj- Defendbrooklyn already admitted that businesses suffer when they don't allow smoking and the option to frequent other bars is available.
quote:That establishment closed because the option to smoke was still available I'm not sure what makes DB think that if a law is passed that an "even playing field" will make everything OK. You are absolutely correct when you infer that everyone thinks it's easy to run/own a bar. The littlest thing can effect business in an enormously negative financial way. |
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 173 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:49 pm: | |
Defen, No, I don't smoke. I'm acceptant of my fellow man as long as they aren't pushing there very twisted views on others. Live like me or go to hell. I don't like pushy people, I tolerate them. I don't like loud or boisterous people, I tolerate them. I don't like people who make light of others situations, I tolerate them. I might not like the way you drive, I tolerate it. I don't like to watch two men be affectionate with one another in public places, I tolerate it. The concept is tolerance. I may not like alot of things, but that doesn't give me the right to make others conform to my "likes" And furthermore while many of you are looking for solutions for your smoking counterparts, suggestions like cafe style seating, which is a great idea, you wouldn't mind setting out there would ya? Why is it by default that the smoker must go outside? Why can't you go outside? It's just selfishness. It's not cool to smoke anymore and its cool to bitch about it. Its like a badge and a method of letting everyone know you don't partake. Thats all it is. |
Diehard Member Username: Diehard
Post Number: 77 Registered: 03-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 3:05 pm: | |
"Why is it by default that the smoker must go outside? Why can't you go outside?" Because smoke dissipates outdoors instead of accumulating, and because the band's playing inside, and I paid ten bucks to see them. DUH. |
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 807 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 3:10 pm: | |
Sstashmoo: If tolerance is the key to happiness, why doesn't the smoking minority tolerate the wishes of the non-smoking majority and smoke only outdoors? Tolerance will only get you a kick in the....groin. |
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch
Post Number: 2370 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 3:13 pm: | |
quote:You are absolutely correct when you infer that everyone thinks it's easy to run/own a bar. The littlest thing can effect business in an enormously negative financial way. Like having an ass behind the bar? |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 1316 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 3:19 pm: | |
"I'm getting SO tired of that "if you don't like it, don't go there" argument. If my favorite band is playing at the Magic Bag, don't tell me I should stay home because it's more important that nicotine addicts get to stink up the place. " The call whether your business is needed there is up to the owner. If the owner decides enough people feel like you that their current business is suffering, they'll go non-smoking. Just because you want to go to a smoke free Magic Bag does not give you the right to it. It's his establishment. He should be the one with the rights. |
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 174 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 3:22 pm: | |
Quote: Because smoke dissipates outdoors instead of accumulating, and because the band's playing inside, and I paid ten bucks to see them. DUH. If the smoke is bothering you that much, the establishment has piss poor ventilation. The "smoky-bar" is nothing new. Even smokers avoid them. Blame the owners of the joint. And really if the band is worth a crap, they will play elsewhere and possibly where smoking isn't allowed or better ventilated. Ten bucks? You're probably stuck with the smoky "Bag". |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 355 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 3:23 pm: | |
SJ, Out of those 150 that closed how many new ones opened? I bet a lot. Non-smoking did not cause the bars to end up closing but rather stiff competition. The problem with bar ownership in NYC is competition. Bars close and new ones open up daily in that city…The same goes for restaurants. There are 1,000's of bars to choose from. Also, add revamped Brooklyn and Queens to the mix and attracting costumers can become a problem. |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 356 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 3:30 pm: | |
Diehard, nice posts. ITS ABOUT THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU! |
Diehard Member Username: Diehard
Post Number: 78 Registered: 03-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 3:38 pm: | |
STashmoo- Bands play wherever they can get booked. There are dozens of factors that determine where they're going to play. I don't know of any local bands that have the luxury of researching and boycotting a club based on air quality. Yes, the Bag has piss-poor ventilation. So does the Stick. So does every bar in Hamtramck. I've been to and played enough shows that it's probably taken years off my life already. But what you're saying is that I (and 85% of the population) have the choice of either staying home or wearing a gas mask to the club, because it's TOO MUCH HASSLE for you to step outside for five minutes. Sure, you can blame the club owners if you want. They should invest thousands of dollars in rehabbing an old building instead of a $3 "no smoking" sign. |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 357 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 3:48 pm: | |
From My Wife: Why don't we just use facts...In NYC business tax receipts were up in bars (hey, if you don't have a cancer stick you suck down twice as many drinks), employment in bars increased (a bigger pool of workers? = less fear of dying), oh and more than 63% of NY'ers approved - guess what that is = a democratic law (democracy equals citizens, not big tobacco & money hoarding legislators with boot licking lobbyists at their heels making decisions). Most people don't want to die. Most people hate cigarette smoke. Some people seem to have the power over both aspects in this case. No one sees a problem with this? Hopefully, one day a man sitting at a bar with yellow fingernails pinching a Camel will be as repulsive as an 8-month pregnant blonde downing a vodka with her Newport in Lee Press-On claws! The State of Smoke-Free New York City Report http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/do wnloads/pdf/smoke/sfaa-2004rep ort.pdf |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 358 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 4:00 pm: | |
More FACTS about the hospitality industry and non smoking... http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/dat a_statistics/Factsheets/Smokef reePolicies.htm |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 359 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 4:04 pm: | |
Sorry to be redundant but logic is pretty heavy! http://tobaccofreekids.org/res earch/factsheets/pdf/0144.pdf Take note of the booming NYC facts... (Message edited by defendbrooklyn on July 25, 2007) |
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 1585 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 4:07 pm: | |
Why are we comparing NYC and Detroit? |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 360 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 4:09 pm: | |
Because NYC ban smoking and its a city. |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 1317 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 4:10 pm: | |
Susanarosa, you mean they aren't identical in demographic and sociological structure? |
Psip Member Username: Psip
Post Number: 1979 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 4:39 pm: | |
You guys have turned into zealots. What was your last cause? What is your next? You make me as sick as you profess that smoke make you because of your intolerance. I hope you are pro abortion. Hey Karl, we got one for you. |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 361 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 5:36 pm: | |
Psip, Why do you post in code? Let me decipher your code: Facts are the enemy and i can’t conjure any relevant retort. I posted the above links so people can see that businesses do not get hurt in the event of a public smoking ban. History has shown that the opposite occurs. If you have nothing to back your claims then they simply fall into the opinion category. |
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 175 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 5:59 pm: | |
Quote: "I posted the above links so people can see that businesses do not get hurt in the event of a public smoking ban." Yeah when I need hard data, I go to govt websites. And dont leave out www.tobaccofreekids for an objective viewpoint. If you believe a business owner can shoo away half of their clientele and not feel it, I have a bridge I'll sell you, and for an extra 50 I'll throw in a statue with it's own harbor. |
Psip Member Username: Psip
Post Number: 1980 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 6:05 pm: | |
Defendbrooklyn Two words, Junk Science. All arguments are based with "facts". Liars always use figures to "make" their point. You got your, I have mine. Sorry, I laugh in your face. This is my last post in this thread... save your precious breath lest you inhale some of the bull shit you keep posting. |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 363 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 6:12 pm: | |
You got me on the smokers/kid site...poor judgement. oops. Why do you think people will stop going to the bar because of a smoking ban? People dont go to the bar to smoke. They go to hang out with their friends, listen to bands, and drink. Smoking only happens while at the bar. Its a secondary thing. All i'm saying is people will continue to go to the bar for all the same reasons...They will just have to step out to light up. |
Defendbrooklyn Member Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 364 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 6:29 pm: | |
Psip, Thanks for the frustrated attack... Psip must be the sound you make while choking on others "junk". psip psip psip psip psip psip psip psip psip psip until next time grumpy |
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:07 pm: | |
YEAH, SMOKERS OUTSIDE PROMOTING SMOKING. I like it. Phillip Morris likes it. Another free choice in the Free Country gone. |