Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2007 » Another Sign of a New Red Wings Arena « Previous Next »
Archive through July 28, 2007Urbanize30 07-28-07  10:02 pm
Archive through July 31, 2007Scs10030 07-31-07  2:23 pm
  ClosedNew threads cannot be started on this page. The threads above are previous posts made to this thread.        

Top of pageBottom of page

Deals21
Member
Username: Deals21

Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Supersport, are you sure the shuttle buses you see near the Tiger games are there to shuttle guest of MCC, or are they employees? We park on Cass and Elizabeth and GR and Elizabeth, so the busses you see may be for the employees. It is posted on the marketing board no shuttles to and from Tigers and Wings. And by the way, the gaming board can do pretty much what they want, they make the laws for the casinos and other gaming events in Mi.
Top of pageBottom of page

Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4991
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because Downtown and Midtown were an economic basketcase in the late 1960's and beyond, it affords Detroit an opportunity to do what few other cities can. That is to restore the neglected old buildings to some semblence of their former grandeur.

This is one of the main reasons why the city center is rebounding. While most other cities were flourishing in the last 40 years, they developed new buildings by tearing down old ones.

The list of grand palatial old movie palaces torn down across America since 1960 is heartbreaking. Many cities (NYC, Philadelphia, Minneapolis, Baltimore, Chicago, Houston, Phoenix, Cincinnati) lost their greatest palaces.

But in Detroit, we were lucky. So far of the 1920's palaces we've lost 1 1/2. The Oriental, and half of the Michigan.

It was the rehabbing of the surviving palaces in Detroit that really started the downtown revival. And now we are on phase 2... the restoration of old office towers into loft and condos.

To tear down much more of the remaining historic fabric of the Downtown and Midtown area defies logic!! It is what makes living in the downtown/midtown area unique and exciting.

Like SCS100 has shown via his Korea trip, who wants to live in drab modern cookie cutter apartment blocks?

It's the surviving historic fabric of our city that is its' selling point (as well as the river).
Top of pageBottom of page

Scs100
Member
Username: Scs100

Post Number: 1288
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Like SCS100 has shown via his Korea trip, who wants to live in drab modern cookie cutter apartment blocks?



Apparently, the Koreans do! :-)
Top of pageBottom of page

Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2926
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Like SCS100 has shown via his Korea trip, who wants to live in drab modern cookie cutter apartment blocks?



You've never been to Northern Virginia, have you?
Top of pageBottom of page

Scs100
Member
Username: Scs100

Post Number: 1290
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes I have.
Top of pageBottom of page

3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 822
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mackinaw: Once you start agreeing with Daninc on anything you're immediately going to lose credibility on this site. Watch it.
Top of pageBottom of page

Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2927
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 5:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^The NoVa folks eat, breathe, and shit drab modern cookie cutter blocks. It looks like a landscape imported from the Soviet Union if you ask me.
Top of pageBottom of page

Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 3425
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 5:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cmon 3WC, I thought everyone hates him because he's not from here. I don't have that problem, but I have no problem agreeing with some/many of his points.
Top of pageBottom of page

Scs100
Member
Username: Scs100

Post Number: 1291
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can see that easily.
Top of pageBottom of page

3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 823
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fine. But you do so at your own risk. (I don't hate him. I don't hate anyone. I just have no respect for his Wikipedia fueled authoritarianism and expertise on every conceivable topic.)
Top of pageBottom of page

Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 3427
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I feel like I've just been pulled over and given a warning haha.
Top of pageBottom of page

Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4992
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3WC, you shouldn't get down on Wikipedia!

They are a wealth of 2nd hand information, even if their motto is: "We don't bother with the messy task of verification!" :-)
Top of pageBottom of page

Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2928
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 5:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Fine. But you do so at your own risk. (I don't hate him. I don't hate anyone. I just have no respect for his Wikipedia fueled authoritarianism and expertise on every conceivable topic.)



An interesting line of bullshit, considering that I post on probably less than 10% of all threads. Most of my knowledge comes from either sources I've read, subjects I've studied, or professional experience.
Top of pageBottom of page

Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 3429
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 6:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan, 3WC is on the record on another thread, calling his/her remarks regarding you a joke.

Gistok: Wikipedia is amazing.
Top of pageBottom of page

Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4995
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mackinaw, I know... I was just kidding. I find myself making corrections from time to time for errors when I look at Wikipedia items on old Movie Palaces (like claiming the Chicago Theatre in the Loop has 5000 seats, when it only has 3800!).
Top of pageBottom of page

Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 3430
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is very imperfect. I've had to re-write some pages myself. Just think of all the people that are getting the world according to Mackinaw.
Top of pageBottom of page

Elsuperbob
Member
Username: Elsuperbob

Post Number: 20
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 6:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What SCS shows is pretty biased against modern cities. Seoul lost a lot of housing and buildings in the Korean War but the population was still there and growing. So the modern city there has been dictated by the need for a lot of cheap housing immediately in those years after the war and the boom times later on.

There's no comparison between Seoul and modern cities that have not been destroyed by war, let alone all of its neighboring cities and most of the country destroyed by war. So we don't need to fear that kind of outcome.

However, with that said, I think we have enough open space to create new so what's left, or most of it, should be left to preservation. There's no immediate need for massive amounts of housing in the city so for now there's plenty of time to restore. We should be a long way off from the need to decide what old buildings should go and what should stay like they have to do in New York.
Top of pageBottom of page

Classico
Member
Username: Classico

Post Number: 39
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Urbanize,

Your dead wrong. Any development does NOT mean its automatically a good development. Your comments remind me of a job I had downtown with MDOT. I worked with many city folks who believed this. They all thought that if Wal-mart came into town tomorrow and laid out a proposal to build a big box store.....say across form Brewery park, it would be better than no development.

What people like you and them leave out is the understanding of doing things the RIGHT way. The way that leads to a self contained growing metropolis in the future. The way that sometimes hedges popular opinion(we all know what popular opinion usually amounts too). The way that takes history,progressive ideas, and context of place into great amounts.

Having haphazardly placed desperate looking developments within the city core and surrounding area is pretty much taking Hall Road and transplanting it into the city. Alot of people don't think there's anything wrong with a Hall road like development, so right there lies the first problem. Mindset. The only way to start changing the mindset of people on what newly thriving areas should or could look like is by leading by example. It can work here, and if the city or region ever wants to have a true sustainable growth in the future it needs to happen. Otherwise you get Las Vegas/Disney-world esque places. God awful otherwise.

Your average person if given control would want to build a new AMC Forum with an Applebees and a Home Depot to boot on the Tiger Stadium site. This is why people go to school to educate themselves within an particular industry that specializes in the built environment and of guiding smarter economic and physical planning in communities. This is called Urban Planning. Much like people who specialize in monies(Financial advisor's), or engineers(structure, assembly of things). Saying "anything" is good for "them" comes across as pretty disingenuous in my book. I hear this quite often.

I have never understood why those two other sectors are praised, while an industry like Urban planning by most people is frowned upon as a intrusive, socialist way of telling people how they should live. While all it operates as is a sector that specializes in proving guidelines for a better quality of life for all, relative to their place/environment. To make sure consequences of our actions do not reach regrettable lengths.

Its why we have professions like this to begin with, because if all devices were left to the people, well you get the picture.


Bottom line is we have a chance to do something unique and special here. Lets do it right, whether it takes 15 years or 50 years. No need need to overly rush these sort of things. I think thats the beauty of it in Detroit's case.

(Message edited by classico on July 31, 2007)

(Message edited by classico on July 31, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Scs100
Member
Username: Scs100

Post Number: 1293
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, those pictures were biased within the city itself. There were plenty of nice older things around there. Gyeongbokung (the main palace) is the first one and the War Memorial is the second one.







Top of pageBottom of page

Elsuperbob
Member
Username: Elsuperbob

Post Number: 21
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 8:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SCS, from what I've heard and seen Seoul is a pretty nice place. Well my friend from Seoul speaks highly of it. And Gyeongbokgung is beautiful from the photos I've seen of it.

Luckily, unlike Seoul, we have the choice to save our older buildings rather than having them obliterated by war, and for having the time to designing new buildings thoughtfully.

I just didn't want to see it used, in those earlier pictures, to say all modern cities are drab and uninspired.
Top of pageBottom of page

Scs100
Member
Username: Scs100

Post Number: 1296
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 8:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I understand your reasoning. I wasn't trying to use it as a stereotype for all modern cities. I was just trying to show what could happen. When you get away from the apartment buildings, it is pretty nice. I don't know another city that has a national park within its limits! And the hiking is excellent.
Top of pageBottom of page

Christos
Member
Username: Christos

Post Number: 128
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You guys are forgetting one important fact.
That is:

Detroit is the greatest city on earth.



Carry on.
Top of pageBottom of page

3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 829
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Christos: I could not disagree with you more. You would deny the creation of a Wal-Mart because it would clash with your school book approach to development. You'd deny jobs to 300 or so currently unemployed workers and the opportunity of W-M's customers to save millions of dollars a year, money which could be spent on education and many other productive things.

The urban planners I know and have on occasion worked w/ are for the most part elitists who don't understand the intricacies of real estate finance and development and don't give developers or municipalities any credit whatsoever for any common sense.

You'd have the City wait for up to 50 years until it could be developed the way you people want it to be. There's a lot of poor people who can't wait that long for the Wal-Marts of the world to agree to your view as to where it can build its stores.

I know many rich real estate developers and I've never heard of a wealthy planner. Money of course is not the ultimate measure of success nor can it be deemed to be the foundation of happiness. However, it is a guage of the effectiveness of real estate developers and planners and I'm glad you folks have as little clout as you do.

Houston has never been burdened by the pie-in-the-sky influence of urban planners and sometimes ridiculous zoning laws and it is a booming metropolis which long ago superceded Detroit in wealth, size, urban amenities and comfortable life styles.
Top of pageBottom of page

Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2929
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^Did you just say that Houston has "urban" amenities???

Yikes!
Top of pageBottom of page

3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 831
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ever been there? Ever been here?
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1726
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

could someone please page me when this thread returns to discussion that's even remotely related to the future home of the Red Wings...

tyia...
Top of pageBottom of page

Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2931
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Ever been there? Ever been here?



If you ask someone in Houston to point you to the middle of town, you end up at that damned Galleria shopping mall. The place is a giant suburb.

I'm amazed at how little respect some people have for an urban place like Detroit. Build your Disneylands somewhere else. That's all I'm saying.
Top of pageBottom of page

Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 1257
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As soon as the bottom falls out over this energy fiasco Houston will be in trouble.
Top of pageBottom of page

Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr

Post Number: 643
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

...don't give developers or municipalities any credit whatsoever for any common sense.


Common sense? Where? For every development that has an ounce of common sense, I'll show you 20 or more that have none whatsoever. These developers build what they want, where they want, and the cities they build in are so happy for the development (mostly for the increased tax base) that they agree to anything. They don't look at common sense, they look at what's the biggest bang for the buck. And don't forget that the zoning you seem so much against is something implemented BY the very municipalities you think use common sense.

quote:

There's a lot of poor people who can't wait that long for the Wal-Marts of the world to agree to your view as to where it can build its stores.


So this is what it's come to, that the only place to work is Walmart? The only place to shop is Walmart? Are you really that blind to the rest of the world?

quote:

I know many rich real estate developers and I've never heard of a wealthy planner. Money of course is not the ultimate measure of success nor can it be deemed to be the foundation of happiness. However, it is a guage of the effectiveness of real estate developers and planners and I'm glad you folks have as little clout as you do.



So, since developers are rich, they must be right, huh? Nevermind that most live off our dependency on automobiles and therefore oil as much as the oil companies themselves. Nevermind that they have created endless wastelands of vast parking lots surrounding cheap indoor imitations of our abandoned cities. Nevermind that they mostly ignore or even destroy local stores and restaurants in favor of a homogenized strip mall that is essentially the same in every city in America. I won't even get into how they contribute to the obesity problem. All that matters to you is that the developers are rich, so we should listen to them, and not the planners. With logic like that, we're all screwed.

As for your comparison to Houston, don't equate zoning with planning. Zoning for the most part has been a disaster, and has generally restricted areas to single use, leaving some strictly commercial (resulting in malls and the like) and others strictly residential (resulting in vast, low density subdivisions), etc. Obviously, such single-use development is not a good thing - it leaves people with long commutes (and all the smog, lost time, etc that go along with that) and completely unwalkable communities, among plenty of other undesirable results.

Fortunately zoning is now trending towards allowing more mixed use development, but most likely it will be some time before the municipalities you credit with 'common sense' will see beyond the usual single-use concept, and truly embrace mixed use and implement it the way it should be.
Top of pageBottom of page

Classico
Member
Username: Classico

Post Number: 42
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 2:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3rdworldcity,

I couldn't disagree even more. No, we would deny a creation of a Wal-Mart because of the more than obvious quick fix approach and short term planning motives. Not the actual business of having business, but of how they have proven to carry out their plans in the past. Detroit has no place(within its core) for the development they usually entail. Now of they could be unique and more accommodating(while still being profitable), then by all means welcome!! Then we all wake up.

Wal-mart dictates and spurs(at least around here) anti-urban "amenities". Want to see many examples of this? Take a look around most of Macomb County. Hate to use the word, but it comes to down to sustainable vs unsustainable. Pardon us for making sure some accountability is in place for throwing up anything, anywhere. The mistake people make when thinking of the Urban planing profession is that we are trying to change the world. All we are trying to accomplish is to improve quality of life WHILE STILL being profitable for all parties involved. The folks you speak of only care about one of those....can you guess which one?

I love how people use the term "free market" loosely as a crutch to OK stupid shortsighted lack of planning. The very fact that planners are not just overly concerned with how much money comes into their pockets should be telling enough for you.

So I guess you are exactly one of those people I was referring too. The ones that have no clue as to what an Urban planer actually does. Planers are not the idealists you think they are, they couldn't be in most cases even if they truly wanted to be.

It's not School book approach posturing friend. It's about common sense planning that will benefit the needs of TODAY and TOMORROW.

This may be shocking news to some, but you can still have your cake and eat it to with well planned out areas. In your world the only people eating cake are the developers and municipalities receiving a short term tax boost. Thats if they didn't already give out some hefty subsidies.

Your last paragraph pretty much works against you in what you set out to do....make the Urban planning profession look like a joke. Talk about backfiring....

Why can't you take care of the needs of today(jobs for the people) and give thought to what they may be in the near or even distant future? It can be done, and to truly have REAL growth/progress this is the only way IMO.

Thanks for setting things straight as well Scott.

(Message edited by classico on August 01, 2007)

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.