  Jonesy Member Username: Jonesy Post Number: 356 Registered: 07-2005 |
schools a disaster. Tony Gonzalez / The Detroit News Former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich slung harsh words at Detroit Public Schools this weekend on "Fox News Sunday." Asked how he would shake up Washington, Gingrich addressed graduation rates in DPS schools and spoke of the city as a "disaster." "We should basically, fundamentally replace the Detroit school system with a series of experiments to see if they'll work," Gingrich said, citing a DPS graduation rate of 22 percent. "And if you're an African-American male, you have 73 percent unemployment in your 20s if you drop out of school and a 60 percent chance of going to jail." Gingrich proposed paying students to take math or science classes and for earning good grades. He said the DPS school board and Detroit city council should be challenged to reform DPS. He added that Governor Jennifer Granholm, lawmakers and union leaders must work to save Michigan from further collapse. To view the entire transcript from Fox News Sunday, see http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291301,00.html http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070730/U PDATE/707300382 (Message edited by jonesy on July 30, 2007) | ||
Hans57 Member Username: Hans57 Post Number: 188 Registered: 05-2006 |
Well at least someone that has some influence in Washington is recognizing the issue. Maybe something will result? | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 817 Registered: 01-2005 |
Wanna bet? | ||
Izzadore Member Username: Izzadore Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2006 |
This is an interesting topic. I've always thought that the public school system in Detroit needed a re-work. It really doesn't matter how good of a teacher you are or how much energy you bring into a class-room. If the parents of much of your student population can't read or don't even care then as a teacher you can only do so much. It's a really tough reality. Full disclosure: Both of my parents are DPS teachers and my sister got out of DPS to work at a charter school last year. | ||
Udmphikapbob Member Username: Udmphikapbob Post Number: 396 Registered: 07-2004 |
"Best" part of the transcript is when he suggests conducting a variety of experiments with Detroit schools to see what works best. Nice of him to use our children as guinea pigs. But hey, if you're watching Newt Gingrich on Fox News, you probably don't see where this is a problem. | ||
Udmphikapbob Member Username: Udmphikapbob Post Number: 397 Registered: 07-2004 |
Oh, and while Newt and the right blame the unions for all that is wrong with employment and education, watch for City Council to get all outraged over the "disaster" line and get themselves all over the news as well. Neither will solve anything. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1426 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Nice of him to use our children as guinea pigs." I can see your point, but then I can also see the point of needing to try something new, because this is NOT working AT ALL. Perhaps experimenting with some new ideas IS what is needed. Otherwise it's nothing but metal detectors and 22% grad rates as far as the eye can see. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 634 Registered: 03-2006 |
He's been talking about this for 6 months now, and always uses Detroit as an example. Detroit teachers are some of the highest paid in America. After the strike in the fall we lost a lot of students to charters. Even though I thing Gingrich is a jerk, Im glad somebody is paying attention | ||
Izzadore Member Username: Izzadore Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2006 |
Any 'experiment' that Detroit takes part in will not be able to generate results for years as you can't really change the way high schools operate without disrupting the education of the thousands of children that currently attend them. Maybe Detroit could start the revamp in middle schools... It may take a decade just to turn around the whole system. | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 3204 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yet again no one seems to question the legitimacy of his claims. His so called "graduation rate" is a shell of a figure. It no way factors for transfers, people who have moved out of town, etc This is an ill derived number, and Gingrich is using it for political gain. Detroit produces fine graduates, many of which graduate college, start businesses, etc. | ||
Rampartstreetnorth Member Username: Rampartstreetnorth Post Number: 59 Registered: 07-2006 |
Newt needs a history lesson. "Experimenting" with DPS has gone on for years, including the takeover by the state (and subsequent return to local control) as well as the proliferation of charter schools, some of which are relatively successful, some of which are not. Sadly the bottom line is that no one, anywhere, has figured out how to create a successful educational system for a student body consisting almost entirely of unmotivated students from low education, low income households UNLESS the students are either hand picked for success (which is what selective admissions public magnets and some private schools do) or self selected for academic interest, which is what Charter schools, parochial schools, and open admission private academies do. Feel good success stories like "Stand and Deliver" are success stories precisely because an inspirational adult managed to motivate previously unmotivated students. The key to success is the student's motivation, period. Motivated students will achieve against all odds; unmotivated students will fail even if given tremendous opportunities for success. So...how do you create an attitude which desires academic success among students who (along with most of their parents) have never given a rat's patootie about academic success? Tough question, and if Newt thinks he has the answers he should stop philosophizing and start working. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8953 Registered: 09-2005 |
It isn't Newt's job to "start working". Nothing will come of this save for the usual ruffled feathers. Detroit, and Detroiters, are in a state of paralysis as exemplified many times on these threads. After getting what they want (complete control of the COD) the predominant population (African American) acts like a spoiled child - resisting proven systems that work for what the child wants at the moment - in this case more money - and little else. Detroit's combo of unions, Democratic politicians and African American leadership/sheople is like a never-ending night shift at a bad hospital. Anytime any sort of "voice of reason" or criticism erupts, someone/something (unions, politicians, etc) inject another dose of morphine to quiet the patient - never solving the problem but getting rid of the noise. | ||
Rampartstreetnorth Member Username: Rampartstreetnorth Post Number: 60 Registered: 07-2006 |
Well Karl, since you are evidently exempt from the "state of paralysis," tell us what you've done to create success in the DPS, or any other big city public school system in the past fifty years. Or...is that also "not your job?" It's soooooo easy to criticize, especially for partisan gain, and even easier to pass the buck. | ||
Kslice Member Username: Kslice Post Number: 125 Registered: 04-2007 |
Fox news was reporting on what the Nute had to say! What a shock! Detroit doesn't need plans or money or Newt. We need to elect COMPeTENT, HONEST, HARD WORKING people to run this city. kwame, city council, and the school board need to be kicked out and new people put in. For example, the school board operates out of some of the most expensive offices around in New Center. And yet, they own enough currently empty buildings to house their offices X2! | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2561 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote:I don't know the source of his numbers but graduation rate stats vary widely depending on source and methodology. Still, quibbling over the exact number ignores the huge dropout problem everyone acknowledges. And while Detroit does produce SOME "fine graduates", so many other DPS HS grads are nowhere near "fine". The dropouts are even worse. The situation isn't "fine". quote:The level of innovation in what has been done in the past isn't great. For most DPS students, school is very similar to what it's been for a long time. Other approaches may work better but would be considered too radical by management and labor leaders. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3539 Registered: 10-2004 |
There was a recent national study (last year?) that mentioned the 22 or 23% graduation rate after four years of high school. Accounting for transfers, it's probably closer to the expected 30% of the last ten years or so. BTW, DPS usually sets their graduation guesstimate at 56%, year after year... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1240 Registered: 04-2006 |
It's funny because... Detroit really isn't hardly the only big city with a shitty school system. About a year ago I saw a report that had New York Public Schools ranked below Detroit. Why would Newt Gingrich single out Detroit and not mention a larger, more attention getting city like NY? Who's running for president again this year? But anywho, Newt won't have the answers and neither will Jennifer. Granholm doesn't know what Detroit needs sitting 100 miles away in Lansing (it probably isn't a pressing concern of hers), and neither does Newt (or whoever) sitting 500 miles away in DC (again, not a pressing concern). The people who do know, the ones actually sitting in the classrooms everyday, are rarely ever asked about these experimental processes. | ||
Diehard Member Username: Diehard Post Number: 82 Registered: 03-2005 |
Why, in the year 2007, are kids still allowed to drop out of high school? It made sense back when they were needed on the family farm, or when they could get decent factory work to help support their families. But I can't for the life of me understand how anyone can justify letting kids just walk away from a free education today. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 566 Registered: 12-2006 |
DPS management will never fix anything because it's not in their own personal interest to do so, and nobody seems to be able to get rid of them. The officials work in very nice office buildings while the children suffer in crappy, run-down buildings with inadequate supplies. Running the schools seems to be all about power and control, and not at all about children or education. Real competition would help; it always does in any business, but how do you get real competition into the public-ed business? Back when nuns were plentiful, Catholic schools were inexpensive and an option for a lot of people, but that's not true anymore. Of course DPS has competition - suburban districts - which is one of the reasons Detroit has gone from having half the regional population to having less than a fifth of it. But if you're concerned with the City, that's not a good answer. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 79 Registered: 04-2007 |
As for tallying graduation rates-- it is very difficult to follow transient families-- there are plenty of families who jump from rental to rental, moving three times in a school year. The kids never have a chance to connect to a teacher or school, and have a terrible time learning. The feds require a count of how many students start in the 9th grade and graduate in four years. But, in many cases, a school district may not even know if a child still lives in the district or has simply stopped coming to school. If you try to track down the transient students at the last known address, they are usually long gone. When parents give transfer information at a new school, a large system like Detroit can take months to route the transcript request to the right school-- IF the parent has given accurate information to the new school. Trust me: this happens all of the time. I think DPS gives their graduation rate based on the students they can actually account for. Without a nation-wide tracking system, it is impossible to account for highly transient students. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3540 Registered: 10-2004 |
Granholm wants the age for dropping out increased to 18 in order to please her number #2 constituents--those who paid her election costs. More kids in class--more teachers needed. The tort attorneys were her biggest contributors. So, she'll be looking out for them too. | ||
Rampartstreetnorth Member Username: Rampartstreetnorth Post Number: 61 Registered: 07-2006 |
Passing laws against dropping out of school will stop people from dropping out of school about as much as laws against drugs stop people from using drugs. All it will do is provide work for more truant officers, but the bottom line is that you cannot force anyone to become educated against his or her will. A far better approach is to make attaining an education a more attractive proposition to students on a day to day basis, as teenagers tend strongly to live in the present. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 824 Registered: 11-2005 |
Yeah, coming from someone like Gingrich, it's like the pot calling the kettle black. | ||
Michmeister Member Username: Michmeister Post Number: 215 Registered: 10-2006 |
After all is said and done, more gets said than done. All campaign rhetoric, like Fred Sanford once said, we`ll promise them an elevator and give them the shaft.... | ||
Lmr Member Username: Lmr Post Number: 75 Registered: 03-2007 |
I agree with several of the posters here who have stated that parental involvement is what is needed to make the difference in student achievement. I know several people (myself included) with college degrees whose parents did not finish high school. Some were raised by a single parent, some by grandparents, even one raised by a foster mother who later adopted her. The thing that made these people graduate from college is that every one had a parent who demanded (and I do mean demanded) academic excellence. The kind of parent where if a kid brings home a report card with 5 As and 1 B on it, the parent says "why the B?" That type of parent will not accept bad schools, period. | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2006 |
[quote]Why, in the year 2007, are kids still allowed to drop out of high school? It made sense back when they were needed on the family farm, or when they could get decent factory work to help support their families. But I can't for the life of me understand how anyone can justify letting kids just walk away from a free education today.[/quote] Because the kids who don't want to be there, are really disruptive to the rest who understand the concept of an education. The 11th and 12th grades were far better than the 9th and 10th grades as the kids who were forced to stay till they were 16 were gone. Schools can teach kids an education, but parents must first teach kids they need an education. | ||
Izzadore Member Username: Izzadore Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2006 |
I agree Lmr. The problem (as i've seen it) is classroom performance and teacher effort/knowledge can get lost in something as significant as parent-involvement. If/When the experiments come we may have to live with the reality that the solution to this problem may not include parent-involvement... | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8967 Registered: 09-2005 |
What we will never see: A joint news conference with Granholm (D) and Kwame (D) taking questions about the graduation rates in Detroit. They know it would put them on the spot, make them more accountable, etc. They also know that regardless of how bad things become, Detroiters will push "D" whenever they vote. So why worry? It's not their kids, and they'll keep their jobs no matter what. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6298 Registered: 02-2004 |
Gingrich said that comment because of black folks running the whole urban circus in Detroit. That's his codespeak. The neo con won't get my vote next year. He's out of there come next August primary. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 1585 Registered: 11-2006 |
Paying the students? Throwing money at the problem? Do these sound like the ideas of a fiscal conservative? He should be pushing privatization, vouchers and charter schools, not throwing taxpayer money (that the state and city don't have) at it. | ||
Meaghansdad Member Username: Meaghansdad Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2007 |
There's absolutely nothing that can be done about the schools in the city until we attack the true issue, the parenting. Even if Ol' Newt was a bit egregious wit his stats, he was right on point with the true issue, the schools in Detroit are horrible and are in need of massive reform. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 1594 Registered: 11-2006 |
Attacking the parenting isn't going deep enough. Get rid of the dependency culture fostered by the liberal social entitlement programs. Restore dignity, self reliance, and responsibility to the family unit, then there is a chance. So long as it is possible to have children as a single mother at age 13, have no support from the father, and survive, what chance do schools have? | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 552 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sigh. Not this again. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 958 Registered: 06-2004 |
The tragedy of it all is its so unnecessary. The DPS is horribly run and the children suffer and anyone who critizes it is labeled a racist. I think the DPS along with the DPD should be liquidated and new institutions built from scratch to replace them. Did anyone catch the interview with the head of the DPD on the radio the other day? She struck me as an idiot surrounded by a sea of even greater idiots. It just breaks my heart that these people are allowed to destroy generation after generation of school children. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 959 Registered: 06-2004 |
My understanding is that 75 years go, predominately black urban schools were very succesful by today's standards, and this in the face of over segregation and much less funding. What has gone wrong? | ||
Meaghansdad Member Username: Meaghansdad Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2007 |
I'm a black man, who, until recently, lived in and believed in the city of Detroit, but, make no mistake, would, NEVER, EVER, educate my children in Detroit public schools. I dont want my children to exchange social intercourse with children raised in homes where abhorrent, vile language is commonplace, and where the teachers lack all authority to rectify the situation. Reading another thread that was advocating communities merging almost brought me to tears. I just paid 140k for a 260k home, in a district with excellent schools , likeminded parental structure, very low crime, and established city services. And guess what, most of my acquaintances think I'm an OREO. NO WIN PROPOSITION!! | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11649 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm confused. Are our city leaders claiming that DPS is doing just fine? Because I've met many DPS dropouts recently, and heard many stores of violence/arrests within the DPS over the years. Another lifelong Detroiter plans a move to Oakland county over the next few years, because he has zero confidence in DPS. Seems to me that Detroit politicians and many locals choose to throw on the blinders and attack the outsider, when in fact the real problem resides right here. People whom have lived here all their lives tell me there are only 3 schools they would send their kids to, King, Renassiance, and Cass Tech. For a school of nearly 1 million people to only have 3 schools that are considered sufficient by most parents is nothing short of pathetic. There is a reason DPS continues to lose students by the 1,000's, it's because the DPS is a failing system. | ||
Yelloweyes Member Username: Yelloweyes Post Number: 163 Registered: 02-2007 |
Yes DPS is "failing". Is it poorly run? Maybe from a media perspective(yes there could be improvements). Are the teachers bad? Not really, maybe some, but which district has 100% excellent teachers. As many have pointed out the problem lies within the culture outside the school's walls. Disrespect for others and oneself, lack of self discipline, or any discipline, welfare, poverty, drugs, crime, poor nutrition, absent fathers, and abuse, all contribute to the problem. How does one expect DPS to be "successful" considering all of these issues they have no control over? | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 3206 Registered: 10-2003 |
Unfortunately this conversation begs larger questions: Is the so called drop out rate a good measurement of a districts "success"? How should the drop out rate should be measured, if at all? Perhaps the only true way to measure the success of those people that actually get diplomas from there and track their outcomes in life. Do we measure a university's "success" on its drop out rate or on the quality of the contributions of its graduates to society? There are widely visible and successful DPS graduates and there are those who have had unfavorable situations. Can you really blame those failures on the district and not weigh them against the success? If I get poor service at a cafe and the wait staff are Melvindale drop outs, can I really blame that on that school district? If get my car repaired at a dealership and the guy who works on my car doesnt get everything right forcing a return visit, can I blame that on the Waterford school district where he went? DPS is losing students as Detroit is losing residents and Michigan is losing residents: people are moving away from here seeking better opportunities all around. The drop out rate is a phantom number, there is insufficient data to make a confident estimate and there are insufficent resources to even get close to that number. We should be focusing on the tangible: those who do graduate and what happens to them over time. That number is attainable and with the right resources- measurable. | ||
None Member Username: None Post Number: 2 Registered: 07-2007 |
Things have changed dramatically in the way school age children process information, multi tasking is just the way they think and to try to keep them interested in learning with the politically correct mush that passes for class room curriculum while they learn the facts from Google is a hypocrisy that most students just are not willing to participate in. In effect the students are bored to death, what takes a week to learn in the class room takes 20 min. online and is a fascinating experience compared to the near comatose environment in the class room. I hate to say it but the teachers union has been a major stumbling block to a decent education, the class room curriculum as a whole has been watered down to a 3rd grade level to meet the "no child left behind" act. Does it seem strange then that any kid that is board and fidgety in the class room is sent to the school nurse for possible ADHD or other symptoms of the sort only to be recommended for drug therapy to calm them down so they may learn in a more constructive state. State of Comfortably numb maybe so they will stop asking those pesky questions about the facts and things of that nature, creativity and critical thinking be dammed. So long as we let our sons and daughters be treated like a commodity for the Forth Friday Student head count and not much else, things will not improve. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 9665 Registered: 10-2003 |
While I agree DPS needs major work I wonder why Gingrich isn't calling out the many, many rural schools with graduation rates equal to or worse than DPS. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3549 Registered: 10-2004 |
The Freep today has an article where at least $46 million from DPS was illegally converted via wire transfers by its employees to themselves or its contractors. So, Gingrich is being vindicated again. And undoubtedly, more such DPS BS still remains to be uncovered. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 9009 Registered: 09-2005 |
DPS = bad dream | ||
Yelloweyes Member Username: Yelloweyes Post Number: 164 Registered: 02-2007 |
How has the teachers union hurt DPS? why do people keep using this poor excuse? | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1106 Registered: 11-2003 |
"Gingrich proposed paying students to take math or science classes" Paying students to take classes is a non-starter. But since that's his plan, why not pay students to take more reading and writing classes, too? Judging from the "functionally illiterate" rate in Detroit, reading education is needed just as much as math and science. | ||
Rampartstreetnorth Member Username: Rampartstreetnorth Post Number: 64 Registered: 07-2006 |
Good reading skills are the necessary foundation for success in every other academic discipline. Without good reading skills a person's options are very severely limited, whether in school or later in life. | ||
Yelloweyes Member Username: Yelloweyes Post Number: 165 Registered: 02-2007 |
Maybe the PARENTS and students should get paid for high test scores. If you want the dog to learn a trick you have to reward him/her for performance. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3552 Registered: 10-2004 |
Get serious! You don't reward people with money for doing the things that they should always do. A simple Attaboy! would suffice. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 1597 Registered: 11-2006 |
Gingrich is not proposing a fiscally conservative solution, he is pushing more of the same stuff that got DPS in the sad state it is in. Throwing more money (that doesn't exist to be thrown, BTW) is not a solution. Privatize the schools (all of them). | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 638 Registered: 03-2006 |
"How has the teachers union hurt DPS? why do people keep using this poor excuse?" They started off this year on strike, delaying the start of the school year. Many students ended up in charter schools leaving the district. (Message edited by kenp on August 01, 2007) | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 130 Registered: 05-2006 |
I don't particularly agree often with Newt- especially when we later found out he had an affair while leading impeachment against Clinton, however his assessment about Detroit Schools is true. It is a disaster. As for conducting 'experiments", I would prefer more clarification on this. Detroit Public schools are a disaster, I feel there has been a level of corruption going on there for years, and the students (i.e our future) wind up, as well as ourselves, being the looser in this. Public Schools clearly offer a great education in other communities, so the idea that it can't work is pure BS. At least somebody is calling a spade a spade. | ||
Yelloweyes Member Username: Yelloweyes Post Number: 167 Registered: 02-2007 |
It was the fault of administrative unit of the district that teachers were not teaching at the start of the school year. Mismanagement of school funds by top school officials leading to poor contract negotiating was the primary reason teachers refused to teach. Yes, students left for charters but the administration can only point the finger at themselves, they run the district. They hired all those teachers that decided to strike, they have misspent millions of dollars, so on and so forth. A major change that would bring upon MAJOR improvements of the schools district would be to do away with a central administrative unit. Find away to put the $ back into the classroom. There are way to many middlemen in the Fisher Building. | ||
Yelloweyes Member Username: Yelloweyes Post Number: 168 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "Public Schools clearly offer a great education in other communities, so the idea that it can't work is pure BS. " Ultimately that is what charter schools are. Miniature "public" schools systems. Are they "working"? - I guess I like to use quotes a lot. |
