  Belleislerunner Member Username: Belleislerunner Post Number: 322 Registered: 12-2003 |
According to the Census Bureau, over an adult's working life, high school graduates earn an average of $1.2 million; associate's degree holders earn about $1.6 million; and bachelor's degree holders earn about $2.1 million. This is using money as a barometer for "successful" as most other barometers are intrinsic and hard to quantify. http://www.census.gov/prod/200 2pubs/p23-210.pdf | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 80 Registered: 04-2007 |
You can NEVER predict how an individual will perform, but you can ALWAYS predict, based on good statistics, how a group will perform. And the statistics show that dropouts perform far below high school graduates, who don't do as well as college graduates, who don't do as well as those with graduate degrees. Period. Do individual dropouts out-perform the average MBA? Sure-- but even their success can't raise the overall average for dropouts. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 299 Registered: 05-2004 |
I wouldn't have gotten married to my wife (who's a CEO) if I didn't have my college degree. Nuf said. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 1589 Registered: 11-2006 |
Higher education is a foundation for later career skills. Specifically: discipline, delayed gratification, problem solving, survival skills, organizational skills, and a work ethic. It isn't the calculus itself that will make you a better worker/more productive person, it is the drive and skills to accomplish the task, overcome the challenges, and do so for little instant gratification that will make your career. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2526 Registered: 06-2004 |
or make you the company doormat | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 1595 Registered: 11-2006 |
Not going to happen for a hard working productive employee. You seem to think that a company owes its' workers something for nothing. A competitive wage as payment for work/productivity that exceeds the cost of the employee is all that is due the worker. The more productive, the more desirable (by other companies) and the higher the wages/pay. | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 203 Registered: 02-2007 |
Old-timers at Wayne trumpet the School's mission to educate the masses (e.g. CLL, Weekend College)and the left applauds the open-admission policy as a democratic (small "d") obligation. Read the back of the catalog and see that the faculty are not graduates of Whattsamatta U. They know what goes on in the halls of the ivy league, and in the upper-level courses (once the obligations to the proleteriate have been satisfied)the fools are not suffered lightly. Sit in on a seminar and listen to the real students tear the rear-ends out of the unprepared and the seat-warmers. I vote that WSU has done more to launch working-class kids into the middle class than 100 NAACP conventions. | ||
Ordinary Member Username: Ordinary Post Number: 241 Registered: 06-2006 |
My son graduated from a suburban high school and is enrolled in the mechanical engineering program. He had to enroll in a "bridge" program at Wayne to bolster his math skills. Man was he pissed at his old high school. I don't know what Wayne's admission policy is but when I went there, I thought most of the professors were pretty tough. | ||
Ordinary Member Username: Ordinary Post Number: 242 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Explain the importance of proper grammar and spelling in this day of half sentences in emails." Even though language is dynamic, if we don't pay attention to the basics, we'll all be speaking to each other in different languages. | ||
Homer Member Username: Homer Post Number: 204 Registered: 08-2004 |
WSU Business school ranked by Princeton. http://media.wayne.edu/release .php?id=2607 | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 189 Registered: 02-2007 |
Some colleges are finance driven it seems. It's not so much the education, but getting more "heads" through the system. They run the standard curriculum, if it adheres, congrats, if it doesn't, oh well we got their money anyway. Our budget is balanced. I think there is a lot of this going on. Not saying that everyone that goes through college was swept through. That would be ludicrous. The old joke is "They graduated you? you've got grounds for a great lawsuit if you'd like" Often times there is more truth in jest... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1246 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Even though language is dynamic, if we don't pay attention to the basics, we'll all be speaking to each other in different languages." Not likely. We're very interactive. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3419 Registered: 02-2005 |
Craig, good post. Homer, that is great news. Let's see how the new building on Woodward helps their cause. | ||
Lmr Member Username: Lmr Post Number: 81 Registered: 03-2007 |
Ordinary - I agree, those math classes at WSU were tough 30 years ago. I have a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science from WSU and we took the same math sequence as the engineers...4 quarters of calculus, differential equations, linear algebra, probability & statistics, and finite methods. The only difference was that the engineers didn't take the finite methods class. Many, many long nights and weekends there... | ||
Belleislerunner Member Username: Belleislerunner Post Number: 323 Registered: 12-2003 |
My most difficult class at WSU was probably my math class because the professor didn't even allow you to use calculators. Coming from AP English in high school to English 3010, I was blown away with how remedial the class turned out. Accounting/finance/econ classes were tough. Marketing and management a joke - but that's probably true everywhere. And the 290 is good press, but as there are no rankings, it's largely a ploy to make money off the publication. Rank the schools and everyone outside the top 20 would say the ranking methodology was flawed and useless. Don't rank them and all 290 can brag. Pure marketing decision by Princeton. But I have no problem with Wayne's mission to help first generation college students succeed. While retention rates for this demographic have been historically low, one can look through the minutes on the BOG's webpage (www.bog.wayne.edu) for ways the school is trying to improve retention. The brightest will succeed regardless. | ||
Kaptansolo Member Username: Kaptansolo Post Number: 2 Registered: 07-2007 |
Well I am a little late posting this. But here goes. It is true that there are high school dropouts who are running successful businesses(most are not). It is also true, that while some employers have found that a college degree does not mean everything...it needs to be noted that college grads are generally not too enthused about those without degrees making the type of money they are making and will not be as quick to "help" when you may find yourself in a "jam". Point-if you are not going to graduate from high school or any other school, you had better be damned lucky and have plenty of connections, lots of love from family(those who are in a position to help)and definitely plan on running a "successful" business because there will not be a lot of respect out there for you. College and higher education is always better. If you think an education is expensive, try being uneducated and see how expensive that can be. Yes, it DOES matter what school you went to for a couple of reasons. Curriculum is important. I remember taking a few entry exams at a few places over the years that were just flat out...HARD TO FAIL. anti-intellectual people don't get this most of the time because they think that if they got a 90% on something then they are winning. When you look around and realize that the "A" they received was in a "color by numbers" class it is somewhat pointless what the grade was. We are all adults here(I assume) and these are the facts...PERIOD WSU is better than no education at all but I can tell you that after living on the east coast and getting into some of the upper class circles and seeing how the REAL POWER PLAYERS view everybody else...you start to see that you don't count in a lot of places where you need to count. (Message edited by Kaptansolo on August 01, 2007) | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1291 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: You ain't kidding. UofM was always at the top of my college list growing up. Couldn't believe it when people said it was their backup school when I got there. The real bucket of cold water came shortly after moving to the east coast. While sitting around with a bunch of peers we started discussing our respective schools. A lot of Ivy League colleges were thrown out there. When I said UofM, one of them noted that it pretty good for a public school. And then everyone sort of nodded and agreed around the table. That was a real wake up call. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 1617 Registered: 11-2006 |
Snobbery (school, wealth, heritage, etc) means less than nothing to me. Make it big in the real world, that's what impresses me. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 190 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "it needs to be noted that college grads are generally not to enthused about those without degrees making the type of money they are making" Big deal.. Capable, talented people aren't too enthused about a college grad making the same money they are when they can't perform their job. A job they got ONLY because the had a degree. Absolutely no other criteria was considered. Quote: "and will not be as quick to "help" when you may find yourself in a "jam"." So the college grads sorta "gang-up" on the "anti-intellectuals"? Quote: "if you are not going to graduate from high school or any other school, you had better be damned lucky and have plenty of connections, lots of love from family(those who are in a position to help)and definitely plan on running a "successful" business because there will not be a lot of respect out there for you." Believe it or not, there are a lot of folks that do things on their own two feet. They don't need anyone's support, family friends etc. They do so because they take responsibility for themselves. And they are highly respected for it. Luck and support from family members generally won't get anyone very far. Quote: "living on the east coast and getting into some of the upper class circles and seeing how the REAL POWER PLAYERS view everybody else..." Oddly, my experience with people of stature has been just the opposite. They are generally kind and speak poorly of no one (how they got where they are). Are you sure these were "REAL POWER PLAYERS"? | ||
Kaptansolo Member Username: Kaptansolo Post Number: 4 Registered: 07-2007 |
1.)Define the "real" world? 2.)Define "making it big"? It's nice to look at it as just some "good ole" snobbery. Unfortunately, this is not a movie... What we are talking about here is the difference between you actually having a chance to change where you may wind up in the "real" world and you possibly losing everything that you have to take care of yourself and your family. Look at what has happened to Detroit and the auto industry and the way that it has affected the lives of so many who relied on the U.A.W to keep those "high paying" blue collar jobs around for generations. I know all too well(my parents were some of those folks who thought that it would never come to an end) and I look at the fact that they worked all those years and are dying with nothing and then the next generation has to start from scratch and compete with those "snobs" you were referring to like they are just some annoying colony of flies that live in your garage and as long as you don't bother them and just live your proud struggling life then everything is cool. Those "snobs" do not start at the bottom and they know that a "survivor" is nothing more than a "loser" who has not died yet. You are competing against those who have far more resources than you do and it is a very unfair competition in that sense. The last thing that you should ever do is dismiss it as unimpressive. Either that or check your "yard-stick" that you use to measure success because you may find that like most yardsticks that are used to push your laundry down in the washing machine when you put your laundry in a machine full of water and detergent...it is a little deteriorated and possibly broken at one end and no longer measures 36 inches. It is those "snobs" who run the very life that you live. And you are unwise to ignore them and their practices especially if you have children. | ||
Kaptansolo Member Username: Kaptansolo Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2007 |
Sstashmoo, I hope you understand that what I and Hemingway were referring to was not the average graduate from Wayne State University or Eastern or the University of Michigan. We are talking about power players who do not look down on others until they are in a setting of "peers"(thank you Hemingway for using that word). Sstashmoo you are supporting what we are saying without even realizing it. Even in those settings they are still members of polite society and as Hemingway put it...they kind of just nodded and agreed. These are the people who understand that information is power and they know what is being taught and where it is being taught. When you start understanding that the different classes exist not totally by accident and that what you think is "making it" may just be a stage that was set(just for you) by one the REAL POWER PLAYERS. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 9670 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: A mid 3 probably won't get you in MSU anymore. A 3.9 probably won't get you in UM. Maybe there is grade inflation or more competition but the bar is much higher at both than it used to be. | ||
Kaptansolo Member Username: Kaptansolo Post Number: 6 Registered: 07-2007 |
I just wanted to say one other thing to Sstashmoo. 1.)The pride in being an "individaul" is foolish when you are competing with "armies". It is also generally respected by those who do not know what is really going on out here. I felt as you did for many years until I started meeting the decision makers. 2.)Doing things collectively will always prosper over individuals. The three men who were mentioned that did not graduate from college were Henry Ford, Albert Khan and Berry Gordy. Ford Motor Company is no longer ran by one person...a collective board of directors guide it's decision making. Motown is also no longer ran by an individual. It is a Los Angeles based corporation. ...and the awesome Albert Khan, just ask somebody which architectural firm he worked for and most have no clue. The age of the individual tycoon rising to the top is pretty much over. I mean you have one or two here or there. Bill Gates, Russell Simmons and I am using them loosely. Youtube was started by 8 people in early 2005. My point is you do need connections and luck and anything other resource you can find. Detroit was a no non-sense town with a metropolis not as sophisticated as San Francisco, Chicago or New York City. It is a place where one got ahead by good old fashioned hard work...not connections and social status. That Detroit is gone and the new one the is "coming up" is being cultivated by those with same mentality as those who run things in the other cities I mentioned. That is also why some Detroiters have a difficult time adjusting to other areas because the "game" is not what they thought it was. It is why what happened to Detroit over the past 40 years...happened. ...and the belief that your talent and capabilities are all that you need is not a good way to the top. People are always there to manipulate your capabilities and exploit your talent. ...and the idea that Ccbatson had about the more productive you are as an employee the higher the wage...that is 1950's thinking. The only reason there were ever those high wages in the first place is because there were unions. Those wages did not come from some top brass admiring your blood, sweat and tears and having a sudden explosion of concern for whether you lived a better life. The Stagehands think the same thing now...they think that they get the high pay because they are the best in the business. Without the unions, pretty much all blue collar workers would be making peanuts and no benefits. Case in point-workers being hired at the big three now(what few are) are coming in at much lower pay rates and having to wait much longer to reach parody. Don't fool yourselves. ...and the college grads know too. What school you went to matters in the upper circles. I mean...we are trying to get to the top aren't we?????? Just like the unions for blue collar work, the right school can play important role as you climb...and that is that. This is the real world. (Message edited by Kaptansolo on August 01, 2007) | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 191 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "Sstashmoo you are supporting what we are saying without even realizing it." Kaptan, Just because you hooked up with a bunch of rich kid snobs that like to bag on the lesser of these behind their backs, convinces me they are actually people with rich parents who know deep down they are falling short on all fronts and ridicule others to satisfy their insecurities. They "nod" in mixed company because they are too spineless to say what they mean. Or mean what they say. Power players? And folks like you that stand agasp and hang on their every word just fuels their esteem. I've been fortunate to experience people from many walks of life. I know the types you are referring to. Keep messing with them and they'll show you how their family got their money. | ||
Kaptansolo Member Username: Kaptansolo Post Number: 7 Registered: 07-2007 |
Alright I am going to step out here a bit. 1.)True power is done in secret. 2.)I am more than aware that the shady deals went down that got "them" to where they are. I am simply saying...regardless to what may have gotten them where they are...they certainly are running things. It is(for me) not about the snobbish aspect but realizing that individual may be the one who has stopped this or that and "this or that" may be what has stop you or I. I hope that you do not come back with no one can stop you from doing what you are trying to do. Or (my favorite) if you let them stop then you are weak. Finally...esteem does not come from nor can it really be destroyed by what others say or think. Esteem comes from your number of wins. There is no magic to this. Curious:What part of the city are you from? Where did you attend college? What type of work do you do? Age? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1252 Registered: 04-2006 |
"A mid 3 probably won't get you in MSU anymore. A 3.9 probably won't get you in UM. Maybe there is grade inflation or more competition but the bar is much higher at both than it used to be." It also depends on the program to which you are applying. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 192 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "regardless to what may have gotten them where they are...they certainly are running things." Line 1) It's called Paranoid Schizophrenia. They control it all, we don't have a chance, don't try and stop them. They control our very lives. A large portion of our prison population is people that thought they controlled "everything". Funny how laws get in the way sometimes. Quote: "I hope that you do not come back with no one can stop you from doing what you are trying to do. Or (my favorite) if you let them stop then you are weak." See "Line 1" Quote: "Finally...esteem does not come from nor can it really be destroyed by what others say or think." There is true power in words. "Pen is mightier than the sword" etc. Words can most definitely damage one's self esteem. I'm surprised you'd say that. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1253 Registered: 04-2006 |
"That Detroit is gone and the new one the is "coming up" is being cultivated by those with same mentality as those who run things in the other cities I mentioned. " I generally agree with you but I disagree that this is a phenomenon absent in Detroit. For instance, does a kid that went to Cranbrook tend to go to U-M, or to an east coast Ivy League? I think the difference is that in Detroit the middle class has historically been able to live comfortably without having to interact much with people from the upper classes. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 854 Registered: 04-2007 |
Just want to chime in a little here- Have you ever heard yourself refered to as a flyover? Well, that's what you are to the coasts. Even mighty Chicago is just a blip on the collective consciousness of the two coasts. The only mid-western schools that are recognized nationally are - Northwester, U of Chicago, Ann Arbor, Madison, Washington of St. Louis (this only for biz school). I grew up in New York, I live in New York, I do business all over the country and I kid you not that certain professions (most notably lawyers and investment bankers) do care about where you went to school. I went to school in the midwest, so I understand that they are absolutely wrong headed. But these people are as insulated in their world as Detroiters or Chicagoans or Milwaukeans or Minnesotans tend to be insulated in theirs. Unfortunately, these are the seats of money and power and so these people serve as the pool for entry level employees and new talent. That said, I agree with SSash that the people who do ascend to power (not the ones who work beneath people who ascend to power) are well mannered, kind, and speak poorly of no-one. They are not condescending because they were smart enough to see the world beyond where they came from and to know there were assets and allies in that world that others would pass over. I am only speaking from my experiences with CEOs, presidents, and VPs of F-500 companies, Presidents of Universities, Partners at the big investment banks, et cetera. I was once at a wedding on a pig farm in Iowa. The President and CEO of a very large Pharmacutical company was among the guests. I had been in his office and I have to say it was larger and nicer than my house. This man, and his lovely wife joined us as the F of the B lead a tour around the large pig farming operation he owned. Then danced the night away to polka music eating pulled pork sandwiches and drinking beer from kegs with the rest of us. THis was a very far cry from their home in Greenwich or their official residence as US Ambassador to an un-named country. They were never in the least condescending or boorish. They were pleasant, good company and a pleasure to be around. He was only one of a large pool of employees that had come from his Ivy league school. However, he rose above the others because his world had been expanded by the education he received, not narrowed. This is a trait that I see in the most succesful people I know, no matter what they do or where they came from. Sorry for rambling | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1254 Registered: 04-2006 |
^I always understood "flyover country" to refer moreso to the plains and mountain states... |
