 
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 894
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 11:22 am: |    |
City government is elected by city residents. Ergo the residents are ultimately responsible. That is the beauty and the burden of democracy. Neighbors should be voting for people who will tear down abandoned buildings. As well as for people who will enforce myriad other rules, laws, and regulations within the city.
Absentee landlords do not litter on lawns, they do not abandon vehicles, they do not break into residents homes. Absentee landlords do not force potential renters or leasees to flee the city to escape crime. Absentee landlords do not send their children to Detroit public schools with the wrong attitude. Absentee landlords do not place basketball courts in the middle of the street and block access to passing vehicles. Absentee landlords do not steal contractor equipment when work is being performed on a house or building in the city. Absentee landlords do not drive local markets and stores out of neighborhoods. These actions are perpetrated by residents.
When absentee landlords do fail to maintain there buildings as required, the residents should be able to turn to city agencies for relief and assistance. Unfortunately for the residents the city government that they, the city's residents, elected does not provide those services very effectively.
There is no one else to blame at the end of the day. There are many people and organizations that can help alleviate the situation. But at the core only residents of Detroit are responsible. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 110
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 11:27 am: | |
Sorry Pam, I have to disagree with you. City government are the officials that were elected by the residents. Kwame was voted in by residents, therefore, it's the residents who are responsible for what goes on in the City. They could have got rid of him. Neighbors should not be responsible for tearing down a burned out home, but when those same neighbors elect a government that had blinders on before the election and then were voted back into office, yes, I blame neighbors to some extent. There are more slobs and litterers in Detroit then there are average citizens, unfortunate as that is, it's true.
I'm sure there are still some very nice neighborhoods in Detroit, areas where the taxes for the homes are very high (they have to make up for the ones who don't care about paying their taxes at all). Those areas are spread throughout Detroit. Getting to them is another story altogether. You have to wear a flack jacket and have bullet proof windows to get to those areas. Even getting to Kwames mansion is dangerous. Thank goodness he has the bodyguards. Too bad the average citizen of Detroit doesn't get the same protection the mayor does. Not enough police to go around, poor fire protection because of faulty equipment, so many firefighters injured on the job because of faulty equipment or no equipment at all, long run times....that can all be corrected with proper leadership. |
Pam
Member
Username: Pam
Post Number: 2237
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 11:38 am: | |
quote:Getting to them is another story altogether. You have to wear a flack jacket and have bullet proof windows to get to those areas.
Is this a joke? It's not true. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 111
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 11:41 am: | |
No joke. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9709
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 11:44 am: | |
Yes, I wear a flack jacket when I am going home or leaving my home. I often drive down Jefferson by the area of KK's mansion and I wear 2 flack jackets because it is sooooo dangerous. |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 971
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 11:52 am: | |
Hey, don't get me wrong. My personal belief if we are assigning blame for Detroit is that white suburanites, especially the generations born between 1920 and 1960, bear the primary responsiblity for the Detroit crisis for their:
1. poor regional governance
2. abandonment of the city and urban values
3. racism
4. failure to insist on a diversified regional econmy
5. failure to build mass transit.
That said, it would be I think denigrating to poor blacks in the city to treat them as passive victims without responsiblity. They and the city's political establishment have made innumerable bad decisions for decades, throwing gasoline on the fire built by the suburban whites.
More importantly, at this stage of history, with most of the original malfactors from 1950 through 1990 now dead or in old folks homes, blame for the past makes little sense. Righly or wrongly, the burden of turning the city around lays largely in the hands of its existing poplulation and political system, for the simple reason that nobody else any longer gives a damn, except for a die-hard core of suburban "Detroit enthusiasts" such as the people on our forum. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 112
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 11:54 am: | |
It's your right to be sarcastic, it doesn't bother me. At least we have the ability to agree to disagree.
Drive into any neighborhood in NE Detroit and you do it at your own risk. SW Detroit is worse. Any inner-city area is dangerous. Jefferson, by the City mansion, probably okay around there because of security cameras, undercover bodyguards, evident police visibility. Pity the other residents who don't get that same protection. |
Urbanize
Member
Username: Urbanize
Post Number: 2138
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 12:02 pm: | |
I'm more afraid of the NW side more than anything. They have the worst shoot-outs over there along with the gangs.
That's why I never go on that side of town. |
Meaghansdad
Member
Username: Meaghansdad
Post Number: 26
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 12:07 pm: | |
Clearly the residents of the city deserve the majority of the blame. The MAJORITY of the residents voted in the current administration, not all residents. I just moved out of the city because of the egregious deterioration of the quality of life. I cut my lawn, washed windows, pulled weeds, and looked out for my neighbors' homes. And my reward...
1. Car Stolen in 05
2. Same car stolen in 06
3. Wife tires and rims stolen (company car) in driveway in 06
4. House broken into in 07
5. Victim of Hit and Run in 07.
Having said that, I still dont have a one rule fits all view of the city, or its inhabitants. I left several good families that cared for their property in the same manner as I. There just happens to be a HUGE disconnect in the parental mechanisms. The thing that pushed me over the edge....I'm outside picking up trash in the yard with my four year old, ...and he picks up a weed bag! I was so fucking mad, I called a real agent estate the same day.
Some of the petty things that teenagers do I can live with, but I will not have me children exposed to drugs/paraphenalia. |
Quozl
Member
Username: Quozl
Post Number: 1146
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 12:07 pm: | |
quote:Even getting to Kwames mansion is dangerous. That statement is totally erroneous Buyamerican. I actually LIVE in the Joseph H. Berry subdivision a few doors down from the Manoogian Mansion. This neighborhood is safe and all my neighbors on Dwight, Lodge, Parkview and Fiske are excellent, law abiding people. I will admit I have a friend over on Lodge Drive that is very anti-Kwame and puts signs up in her yard and windows, but she is good people. I walk or ride my bike to Belle Isle all the time and nobody has ever messed with me.
You need to get your facts straight Buyamerican before you spew again about something as critical as MY neighborhood.
(Message edited by quozl on August 06, 2007) |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 873
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 12:08 pm: | |
I'm always fascinated by the expectation that people have a moral obligation to stay in the city once they had a home here. Isn't that implied in Ray's statement and that of others here that people who "abandoned" the city are to be blamed for Detroit's bad neighborhoods.
Is it a moral obligation to stay in the City? If you sell your house and move on, it it racism? |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 895
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 12:12 pm: | |
Buyamerican- Glad you agree on responsibility. I don't agree on the flak jackets/bulletproof glass statement.
Ray- I think you feel either anger or guilt (maybe both) about white people leaving Detroit. So you are blaming them for its current condition. That is wrongheaded. Also, by singling out "White" suburbanites you expose a dangerous racist idea and a fallacy in your argument. First the racist idea- that whites are able to run Detroit. Conversely, blacks are not able to run Detroit. Next the fallacy- the white folks that you blame for ruining Detroit by leaving it you also blame for bad governance in the region. Well, if they are so incompetent governing the region, then what makes you think Detroit would have been better off with them staying?
1) Poor regional governance- Well, detroiters are part of the region. So they are just as responsible for its governance as suburbanites, white or black.
2) Choosing to live in the suburbs or in the country does not destroy a city. They did not burn their homes on the way out. There was no "scorched earth" policy like Sherman in Georgia or the Russians before Napolean. These emigrants sold their homes to other residents. The city was destroyed by those who remained. Give credit where credit is due.
3) an overabundance of white against black racism drove white flight. an overabundance of black against white racism now keeps whites, and their much needed money, from returning. That is the fault of Current residents.
4) A clean safe Detroit with a welcoming mayor would have gone a long way to advance this cause around the country and the world. Thank Coleman and his supporters, not the suburbanites.
Like I said, there are plenty of people and entities that can help Detroit improve, that can try to steer the residents in the right direction, and the regions governments as a whole should do that. But they only need to do it because the city itself is dysfunctional. It is dysfunctional because of its residents choices and decisions. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 113
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 12:12 pm: | |
My point exactly. You are very lucky you sold your home. You were a good neighbor as I was, and the payback was a slap in the face.
Detroit will always be my home, but it's just a memory now. I can't even go to Belle Isle, a beloved place when I was growing up and a young adult. |
Pam
Member
Username: Pam
Post Number: 2240
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 12:17 pm: | |
quote:I can't even go to Belle Isle,
Why can't you? Lots of people go there every day with no problem. Many of us attended the D-yes picnic there this year and lived to tell about it. |
Quozl
Member
Username: Quozl
Post Number: 1147
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 12:23 pm: | |
I want to know why he CAN'T go to Belle Isle too. I ride my bike over there a couple times a week and have never had any problems.
(Message edited by quozl on August 06, 2007) |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 896
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 12:24 pm: | |
BUYA- I know a lot of folks who live in suburbs of urban areas and are afraid of the city they spawned from. A lot of this is unfamiliarity. A lot of it is fear of the unknown. I understand that you feel your security is threatened.
But honestly, a lot of people (the majority in fact) of folks in the city live and work everyday with no problems. It may be that their tolerance for unacceptable behaviour has been raised so high that they do not notice a lot of the things that you do. Like Meaghansdad saying that he could live with the things that teenagers do, and having his car stolen and vandalised repeatedly. That is not normal life, and you may be more sensitive to those conditions. So when folks get riled up, understand that this is their home and they are proud of it, warts and all, because they see positives that you do not.
(Message edited by michigan on August 06, 2007) |
Meaghansdad
Member
Username: Meaghansdad
Post Number: 28
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 12:27 pm: | |
A. I didnt sale my home, I was fortunate enough that I didnt have to.
B. There is no reason you cant go to Belle Isle, granted there are times where the younger crowd makes it impossible to hear yourself think, I still go as often as I choose, my son loves the playscape.
C. The area around Kwame's mansion is probably as safe an area of the city as you'll get.
Buyamerican, I think there is some veiled racism in your posts. My only rebuttal would be that you shouldnt disguise it. If you dont like blacks, and you think we are solely responsible for the decline say it! |
Urbanize
Member
Username: Urbanize
Post Number: 2140
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 12:30 pm: | |
If your Infant Babies can't even sleep in the comfort of their own cribs at night without the parents worrying about them getting shot, then there's a problem.
That's been a bigger issue on the NW side than anything. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 897
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 12:32 pm: | |
MD- I don't think it as simple as that. When you live in an urban area you grow accustomed to having other folks share your space. In the suburbs, and in the country, that doesn't happen as often. In fact, that seems to be the driving force behind suburbs.
So when folks from the suburbs go to a park, they expect to spend it quietly BBQing and throwing a ball. When your neighbor blasts his music so loud that you can not hear yourself think, that is taken as an aggressive action. That does not invite suburbanites to come enjoy Belle Isle. I think you understand that more than you are letting on. |
Meaghansdad
Member
Username: Meaghansdad
Post Number: 29
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 12:51 pm: | |
I understand completely, but that doesnt excuse blatant erroneous language. Instead of not going, go early on a Saturday or Sunday, when most families who want to enjoy it do so. Its fairly easy to slander the city and its residents, but if you dont go and SEE, not PASS THRU, what reason do you have to comment? |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 898
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 1:01 pm: | |
I agree with you MD. I try to take advantage of everything a city has to offer. I think everyone feels entitled to comment because emotionally, culturally, and psychicly (spelling?) Detroit is the focal point and lynchpin of the region. Everyone in the region feels (correctly) that they are a stake holder. Now, the idea is to get them to ACT and THINK like stake holders. THen the city, and region, would excel. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 114
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 2:18 pm: | |
It's too bad that people from everywhere can't have an intelligent discussion about the decline of Detroit without bringing racism into the equation. I am so tired of the race card being thrown in our faces every time there isn't a logical answer for obvious problems and backs are up against a wall; it's really getting old, don't you think?
I am simply stating facts as I know them. If someone on this forum takes that as racism then the problem is theirs, not mine.
I should be able to enjoy the island at any time, day or night....correct? Why would I possibly wait for a Saturday or Sunday morning, early? I lived in the City for the first 50 years of my life. I would have stayed in Detroit if I didn't fear for my family and their well-being. My house would have been long paid for, economical to maintain, just big enough for us. I love Detroit, then and now...I just don't like what it's become. It's not a few warts, it's a growing rash. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9713
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 2:20 pm: | |
quote: am simply stating facts as I know them.
What do you expect when your facts are incorrect and insulting to those of us that live here. Do you expect people to welcome your non-sensical opinions with open arms? |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1303
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 2:21 pm: | |
"It's too bad that people from everywhere can't have an intelligent discussion about the decline of Detroit without bringing racism into the equation."
How can you have an honest discussion about it and not include racism? |
Exmotowner
Member
Username: Exmotowner
Post Number: 383
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 2:32 pm: | |
"Clean up where you live" is a minimum requirement for being human.
AMEN SISTER> just because you live in a toilet dont mean it has to be a filthy toilet!!!
and Im not even going to reply with....
How can you have an honest discussion about it and not include racism?
GD What the F do we have to do to get over this!??? Detroit is the only city I know of where you cant mention shit and someone brings up the race card. The more I read this forum, the more Im beginning to thik detroit is really F'd. It really makes me sad! |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1304
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 2:37 pm: | |
"Detroit is the only city I know of where you cant mention shit and someone brings up the race card."
No it isn't.
"GD What the F do we have to do to get over this!???"
Maybe have an honest discussion and not be so damn dismissive about it? |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 48
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 2:38 pm: | |
Wow! You know I am new to blogging and message boards and I thought that since identity can be kept to a "handle" that you choose, people would be able to be honest about everything but I see that is not the case.
I personally thought that people left the city for a lot of other reasons than racism but as I read this thread it does not make me lean toward that thinking any longer.
Let me see if I can get all of this here.
"Michigan" is correct about most people working and living in the city without problems. That is not to say there are none...but when I was living in Detroit in the early 90's I remember having to tell a few suburbanites that Detroiters are not living behind sand bags and throwing grenades at each other. Damn (without disclosing my color) white people do seem to amplify this "it's a war zone" and "I'm afraid I will get killed" mentality.
From what I have seen in various large cities around the country...white people as a rule can go walking through a black neighborhood without anybody really bothering them personally. The music might be a little loud but it is not directed at them for the purpose of annoying them...though they may be annoyed. I cannot say the same for some white suburbs if you are a black man. Questions such as who the black man is are and what his business is there are usually handled right away by the locals of that neighborhood...in some cases before the police even arrive.
"I can't even go to Belle Isle" this is truly an insane statement.
I have not been to Belle Isle in years...makes sense, I live in New York but...when was anyone ever not allowed on Belle Isle by ANYONE ? I mean pick your MOB...the police, gangs, thugs, everyday people, the animals at the zoo, deer, fish in the lagoon, spectators in Windsor, the grounds crew....WHO OR WHAT stopped you from going to Belle Isle??? It sounds like the island is Mutual of Omaha's wild kingdom!!
I have to agree with Michigan here...bigtime..the fear!!!! My god...it really is that bad...fear of what!!!???? White people from the suburbs need to really check themselves on that one..."I can't go to Belle Isle". If they are that scared...I'm sure that even if Detroit was "cleaned" up they would continue to have that fear.
Southwestmap-No..there is no moral obligation to remain in a city or anywhere else for that matter just because you once owned property there. I do not think that it is racism if you sell your house and move on.
White people usually don't tell black jokes in front of black people either.
I can remember some time ago when I was a musician in a local Detroit band and we had a diverse group. I can remember very well listening to the guitarist one day complain that his daughters were always talking to/dating black guys and he did not like it. He was white. I thought about how dumb what he was saying was...He lived on Chapel St near Outer Dr. I was like...well, it's not like they have an array of white boys to choose from. You are living in a predominately black city..what are you bitching about..what do you expect?
What made this even dumber was the fact that he was very friendly with the band and they all ate at his table with his family on a regular basis.(regular basis-about every two weeks) Though the two "daughters" he was referring to were his step-daughters...his own 2 year old daughter had been sitting in the lap of one of his keyboardists the evening before this conversation at dinner. This particular keyboardist was black. She was just being a curious child like children are at that age and had no idea that he was "black"...she was not old enough to know. He was just another adult in the household and she was playing and climbing up on everybody.
So I asked him, "If you feel that way about the young black guys your "daughters" are talking to...you do realize that the likelihood of your youngest one liking black guys is high? He was silent.
I then asked him what was his issue with these guys?
This is what he had to say...
Color-"it's not them so much as what if they have children?"
"OK", I said, "what is the problem?" "Are the guys deformed or something?"
He said, "No." "Is there anything wrong with wanting to have grandchildren that look something like you?"
"No", I said.
He continued, "Well, everybody wants to show their grandkids off at work and brag."
I said, "So you are saying that all white people look alike and want to keep it that way?"
without allowing him to answer I continued...,
"Actually you are saying that you are aware that most people that you associate with would not be very accepting of this even though you had nothing to do with whom your daughter chose and you do not want to be the "butt" end of some of the jokes and cruel things that you have participated in yourself in the past?"
He finally said after being silent for a longtime...that he did not know how to respond to what I just said but, "I just hope that my kids follow the way I believe and share my value system."
I said..."well, if you want to preserve your racist mindset and have it bloom in your children...you had better move away from the city where your kids will not be able to conclude for themselves due to "in their face" exposure to black people."
Though this is only one example of one individual...I think this is pretty much the general attitude of most white people. Very friendly with black people and anyone else until it looks like "white" culture is being threatened.
Him and others like him...(closet racists...yes I have exposed you...sue me)
"damn. I was actually getting along with my black friends but then my daughter thought my black friends were actually humans that might be suitable to date, live with and possibly have children with...damn, even though I feel stupid because they are really my friends...I need to have the courage to hang on to my racism for "fear" white people might get lost in the mix and I would be the on the poster, my picture and my grandkids pictures as examples of what happens when white people live too close to black people.
What I saw happen to Detroit was not "Destruction". I mean let's analyze the word..."destroy". Yes there was some vandalism...but most of Detroit's problems that are mentioned here are neglect and deterioration...due to a lack of money.
As Michigan pointed out..."an overabundance of white against black racism drove white flight. an overabundance of black against white racism now keeps whites, and their much needed money, from returning. That is the fault of Current residents." I disagree with you on "fault of current residents" someone just said that they could not go to Belle Isle...I am assuming that he does not live in the city. The racism is the fault of both parties whether in the suburbs or in the city. But that "fault" is not equal...white people have some real serious, deep rooted prejudices against black people as my illustrated example(a true story-by the way) demonstrates.
Michigan-I agree with a lot you say...it is this one that strikes me the most. "whites, and their much needed money"
Their much needed money!...well this supports what I have been posting on quite a few threads slightly related to this subject...I said all along that there is no more money in the city to run it...successfully...and as far as the statement...
"A clean safe Detroit with a welcoming mayor would have gone a long way to advance this cause around the country and the world. Thank Coleman and his supporters, not the suburbanites."
I disagree with you on that point.
Detroit can never make a comeback...without a commodity with as much force as the automobile. You have to have a product that drives the local economy in the city...Period!!!!
As I said many times...the auto industry left regardless to who the mayor was and many people depended on those jobs to live and advance. Black people did not want the jobs to go...White people did not want the jobs to leave...and Coleman certainly did want them to leave either. I'm sure anyone thinking about being the mayor of Detroit would want some MAJOR industry there and with plans to expand there. That is the only way the big comeback could possibly take place.
(Message edited by Kaptansolo on August 06, 2007) |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 49
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 3:01 pm: | |
I also want to address one other thing...
Those who have stated that handouts are not working...I agree with you
...and if people are working they will have pride and take care of their surroundings and give a damn about local politics too...I agree as well
BUT!!!...not if they are working at McDonald's. The high pay has to be there to build credit and the income has to be there to borrow and payback the loans for home improvements and other things that a lot of us take for granted.
It is so easy for us to say that "they" should not get a handout...Ok fine!!!
Where do you suggest that all of "these" people go for employment that will pay enough to afford them dignity??????
Again...you need the auto industry to return..... |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 51
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 3:07 pm: | |
In a lot of cases...a lot of the jobs that some of us worked at while attending college for extra money and support...are the jobs that some people have to try and carve a life with...Anybody who worked these jobs during the college years knows good and damned well that there was no way you could live off this forever....How do you expect for someone else to be able to do it????
The jobs in the city (what is left of them) and the jobs some had in college have one thing in common...low pay.
tell me...I'm listening???????????? |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 904
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 3:13 pm: | |
KS- It is sometimes hard to make my thoughts clear on these postings. There is definitely fear of and racism against blacks in the suburbs of Detroit. The thing is, Detroit needs to attract the suburban money that is rolling around the townhalls of these small towns and get its share into the cities coffers. I think to do this the city residents have to make the city more attractive to these suburbanites. Attractive to live in, attractive to socialize in, attractive to invest in. So the burden, fairly or not, is on the city residents to make the effort.
I think there is also a great deal of generational bitterness among white people in Southeatern Michigan for how they feel they were "driven out of Detroit". In some ways I think they take some pleasure from seeing the city flounder now that they have left. This is petty and small minded, but that is the human condition for most folks. What they still don't realize is that a sinking Detroit weighs them all down. I hope this helped clarify what I meant.
" A clean safe Detroit with a welcoming mayor would have gone a long way to advance this cause around the country and the world. Thank Coleman and his supporters, not the suburbanites." I made that statement concerning how Detroit missed opportunities for years to woo new business to Detroit in the '70s and '80s. I know that it was simplistic, but the long response would read like War And Peace. I think Coleman hurt the city's opportunities a lot in that period. So my point again is the burden has fallen on the city's shoulders, fairly or not. I think the city is doing a much better job of improving its image of late. And as the real estate on the coasts (and Chicago) price more and more people out of the market, A city with the inate beauty and culture of Detroit could become a very viable aternative. |