Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2007 » GM to take lead in electric car race? « Previous Next »
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 1631
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. (AP) -- General Motors Corp. has signed an agreement with a battery maker that could propel it ahead of Toyota Motor Corp. in the race to bring plug-in hybrid and electric cars to market, a top company official said Thursday.

A123 Systems Inc., based in Watertown, Mass., already produces millions of nanophosphate lithium-ion batteries for use in cordless power tools, and it plans to apply the technology to automobiles.

GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said the deal, coupled with a published report that Toyota Motor Corp. would delay launches of lithium-ion battery powered hybrids for up to two years, could give GM the lead in bringing the new clean technology to market.

"I think that our No. 1 competitor has some problems with their technology, and I do think that it very definitely opens a window of opportunity for us to be first to market with a genuine plug-in hybrid," Lutz said at an automotive industry conference in Traverse City where the battery deal was announced.

The Wall Street Journal, citing people familiar with Toyota strategy that it didn't name, reported Thursday that problems with lithium-ion technology forced Toyota to back away from plans to roll out the vehicles between 2008 and 2010."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/s tories/M/MI_ELECTRIC_CARS_MIOL -?SITE=MIDTF&SECTION=HOME&TEMP LATE=DEFAULT
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Jazzstage
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Username: Jazzstage

Post Number: 31
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hope they take this seriously. Unless Detroit makes something as good or better than the Prius, Detroit automakers will never rebound. Hopefully, they will consider style in the equation.
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Higgs1634
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Username: Higgs1634

Post Number: 152
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wait, I thought GM, Haliburton, and the oil companies killed the electric car!?!
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Mikie
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Username: Mikie

Post Number: 70
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jazz, have you seen the Chevy Volt, it has some style!

http://www.autobloggreen.com/p hotos/chevy-volt-concept-1/121 377/
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 1636
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, too bad it won't look ANYTHING like that in production.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 2013
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doesn't Toyota already have their plug-in on the road in Japan for testing? How far along is GM?
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 9834
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Depends on how deeply their archaeologists have to dig.
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Mikie
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Username: Mikie

Post Number: 71
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heres some info from the Free Press today.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070810/BUS INESS01/708100367/1002
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Amy_p
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Username: Amy_p

Post Number: 814
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I feel like the documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car?" should be mandatory viewing. Blew my mind. At a Blockbuster near you ...

PBS NOW Story about Who Killed The Electric Car?

quote:

The film looks at the hopeful birth and untimely death of the electric car, an environmentally-friendly, cost-saving salvation to some, but a profit barrier to others.

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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 1003
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Blew your mind"....how so Amy? A few thousand people wanted a car, with questionable benefits, and the companieS (ALL of the companies) making electric vehicles discontinued their programs...not so mind-blowing in my book.
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Amy_p
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Username: Amy_p

Post Number: 815
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did you see the documentary, Gambling?
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 1004
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Watched the whole thing.
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Amy_p
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Username: Amy_p

Post Number: 816
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 6:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmm -- well, that's saying something; it was kind of long and painful in parts, so it must have been worse if you thought the premise was a load of crap. To me, the movie made its case. The battery thing probably "blew my mind" the most, and that they did not give the cars a true market test (not to mention availability). Despite the hokey flower-child aspect of the group that loved their cars and wanted to keep them, the movie opened my eyes. We're getting a Truman Show reality by the handful of power, and it's creepy and weird to me. But then, I'm a person whose mind was recently blown when EDS walked out employees with zero notice. Rosy glasses.
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 1005
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed, very long and painful in alot of parts. Alot of it seemed very "concocted" to me, like most of Michael Moore's work. The movie "made a case" that it wasn't anyones fault that the electric car was "killed", that there are alot of limitations to a car powered by electricity and the means by which we generate that power. The most striking thing in the movie to me was that the lady at the dealership, who supposidly ran their nationwide sales team or something, said "we easily could have sold 4 or 5 THOUSAND of these"..........a nice-sized failure to be sure.....Another former worker from GM said it best (and I paraphrase) " If GM could build an electric vehicle that everyone would buy, they would produce as many as they could"...Amen
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Amy_p
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Username: Amy_p

Post Number: 818
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agree to disagree. (We are the poster children by which to model forum disputes tonight. ;)
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Alan55
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Username: Alan55

Post Number: 345
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Another former worker from GM said it best (and I paraphrase) " If GM could build an electric vehicle that everyone would buy, they would produce as many as they could"...Amen"

Not true. GM used the EV1 to convince the State of California not to raise it's fuel or emission standards. If California had raised their standards, then other states such as New York, Massachusetts and New Mexico would have followed their lead.

With the EV,GM said, "See? Don't bother to raise those pesky old standards. We are putting out zero-pollution vehicles like our electric car, and in a few years we will have tens of thousands of them on California's roads." The increase was subsequently scuttled, and shortly thereafter so was the electric vehicle.

(Oh, and the $100 million or so GM spent to develop and produce the EV? Pocket change to them. Well worth the money to convince California (and other states) to forget increasing the standards.)
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Jiminnm
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Username: Jiminnm

Post Number: 1375
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Alan, New Mexico would not have followed as we do not have higher mileage standards than the Fed (despite efforts from the far left to make it so). In fact, places are so far apart here that shorter mileage electrics are not at all practical.

You've got to stop making things up and then trying to pass them off as true.
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 259
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 1:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Electric cars killed themselves.

Know if the math was there to support it, automakers would be scrambling to be the first to offer it.

Who is going to buy a car they can't drive to Lansing without stopping to recharge? Then after a few years when the range starts dropping with each charge exponentially, the dealer says "Yeah your banks are bad, we can fix that for 5 grand"

Electricity isn't free. Much of it is produced from fossil fuels. Its a mere transfer of energy and the losses in that transfer must be considered as well. Then there is battery technology and battery life. Its a great concept until one starts factoring in reality.

Then consider the vehicle performance. What equal alternative is there in an IC engine? 15 -20 horsepower? What kind of mileage would that car get?
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Smogboy
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Username: Smogboy

Post Number: 5718
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 1:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regardless whether it's electric or whatever fuel, what happened to the true American need to innovate? And this isn't just true with GM but all of the American car manufacturers. I've always thought that what made us great was the fact that we always had the next idea, the next innovation. Sure the Japanese take it over eventually and perfect it on a mass market scale but why not use our intellectual prowess and come up with something new? I don't exactly see any of the other countries doing that either and I've always contended that our strength is in our ingenuity.

We need to start thinking next generation of transportation- whether it runs on electricity, ethanol, helium, or snail dung... we need to compete on a global scale again.
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 1076
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 2:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

GM used the EV1 to convince the State of California not to raise it's fuel or emission standards.



As stated before, you've got to stop making things up and passing them off as fact.

What really happened is that the State of California imposed an emissions mandate that would have prevented GM from selling any vehicles in the state unless they also produced a zero-emissions vehicle for sale in that state. GM developed the EV1 in response to the California Air Resources Board (CARB) Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) program which was established in 1990 to help clean up California's serious air pollution problems. Originally, the ZEV program required that 2 percent of new vehicles produced for sale in 1998 and 10 percent of new vehicles produced for sale in 2003 would be zero emission vehicles.
[more]
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Alan55
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Username: Alan55

Post Number: 347
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 9:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jimmy and Mikey, it would be nice if you two would stop talking out of your asses. (Especially you, Jimmy speaking from New Mexico, 2,000 miles from the auto-making world.)

I see that you've bought into the official PR. GM never intended to produce electric vehicles long-term. It was all a carefully-orchestrated marketing plan to show their great concern for mileage and pollution. Just as 4 or 5 years ago, when there was talk of higher mileage standards, they trotted out the fuel cell Hy-wire; and today, with talk of higher mileage standards, they rolled out the Chevy Volt, "which just needs a few more years of development". Both of which will never be seen again if they are again successful in stopping any mandated mileage increases.

So, go ahead - believe the official PR. (I suspect that you two are amonst the last 11 people in this country who still believe the Dubya PR about Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq. And, you still wait for the Easter Bunny to show up with the eggs and candy.)
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 1077
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^Juvenile taunts and conspiracy theories, is that the best you got?

Oh, about that 2,000 mile comment. In case you haven't noticed, Detroit is no longer the center of the auto-making world - it's a global business these days. The big decisions are no longer made in boardrooms in Dearborn, Detroit or Auburn Hills, but in places like Tokyo, Shanghai and Stuttgart.
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 260
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: "The big decisions are no longer made in boardrooms in Dearborn, Detroit or"

What big decisions? Die cast or plastic door handles? What price will enable them to steal more of the American market? Which US politician they will bribe next in the form of "campaign contribution"?

Most of the auto technology the Asian companies are employing was stolen from us. All they do is reverse engineer and sell it back to us at a cheaper price.

I know a UPS pilot that goes over there all the time. They have mall-like stores in Hong Kong where one whole floor is nothing but stolen cracked and fully operational software. Catia CAD software for 11 dollars? Its a 40 thousand dollar program here (or was). These folks including their governments have made their intentions abundantly clear, they have zero consideration for US copyright or patents. It is theft and the US government is allowing it by not levying sanctions against them.

As smogboy said, the US is and has been the leader of ingenuity and innovation. Unfortunately costs kill alot of great ideas.
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 1078
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 11:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

What big decisions?


Decisions affecting sales growth, manufacturing consolidation, partnerships and joint ventures, supplier alliances, vehicle pricing, etc.

The manufacturers with the lowest structural costs are the ones who have the ability to "set the price" in a vehicle market segment and the high-cost producers (like Ford, GM & Chrysler) have to follow suit and struggle to make a profit.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 1793
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What Sstashmoo describes is just another part of the fleecing of America. Software, music, movies, and other such media are one of the U.S.'s biggest exports, yet in many Asian countries, the stuff is stolen, copied, and sold, yielding no profits to us. They steal what is great about this country since they can't come up with it on their own, then sell it back to us at the cost of our jobs and livelyhoods.
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Jiminnm
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Username: Jiminnm

Post Number: 1378
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Onca again Alan, you were wrong and won't admit it. If you have a source for inclusion of New Mexico in your comment, please cite it. As for my comment, if you can't get at least 150-200 miles per charge, then electrics will be pretty useless here (and, I suspect, elsewhere).

I spent a few decades in the auto-making world, so don't throw out your comment as if not being there now means anything. Also, I'm 1,6000 miles away, not 2,000, and am in the home of the so to be electric car making world as Tesla is now constructing its manufacturing plant here.

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