Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 1791 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 11:04 am: | |
Mackinaw, trust me - Ive been preaching to the fam about the proper names of many areas of the City. Just trying to get them to understand that you can not refer to everything south of 8 Mile Road as "downtown" has been a chore. Thats actually a common thing amongst whiteflight-suburbanites. |
Dave Member Username: Dave
Post Number: 149 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 11:18 am: | |
I go with Mackinaw on this one. The Campus Martius in Marietta predates Detroit's, but I expect that both were named after the one in Rome. Knowledge of Roman history would have been widespread at the time the plan was drawn. A parade ground near Fort Shelby would be analagous to the Campus Martius in Rome. Apparently the one in Marietta was a stockade which the original in Rome wasn't. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3564 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 11:30 am: | |
Mauser that's funny. I guess Royal Oak becomes midtown and Pontiac is uptown? It all goes back to Rome, Dave. |
Trying_2_stay Member Username: Trying_2_stay
Post Number: 28 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 12:14 pm: | |
I moved here from Ohio in the 1960's and when I was a teenager I only knew of the middle of downtown where the statures were as Cadillac Square. This is where they held rally's and small time concerts, we would take the Woodward bus to Hudson's and then hang out there. Of course I never heard of Campus Martius since we did not live here prior to the 60's. But I did miss going to Hudsons and staying downtown til late. |
Newport1128 Member Username: Newport1128
Post Number: 105 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 12:18 pm: | |
Probably the Campus Martius in Ohio was named after similar places in other areas, since a "Campus Martius" is the name for any military drill area. Woodward, Cass and other leaders at that time, including those who were leaders in Ohio, were well-educated easterners who would have been familiar with the classical reference. |
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1418 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 12:25 pm: | |
So maybe I am analysing this too much, but then this all means that this 1807 map of downtown Detroit http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi kipedia/en/4/47/Old_map_1807_p lan.jpg was created after the war of 1812? |
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1784 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 1:18 pm: | |
I always considered the beautiful Soldiers and Sailors Monument to be the heart of Campus Martius. Before it was moved, that is. |
Scottr Member Username: Scottr
Post Number: 696 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 2:29 pm: | |
I did some quick, internet-only research and came up with the following. I have no reason to suspect that any of the following is false, but since my main source was Wikipedia, take it as you wish... Regarding the Marietta fort: "Founded by the Ohio Company of Associates in 1788, Campus Martius was a fort that served as home for some of the pioneers while they established Marietta." http://www.mariettaohio.org/di rectory/campus_martius_museum Fort Shelby was originally Fort Lernoult, built by the British in 1779 and renamed Fort Shelby (after first Kentucky Governor Isaac Shelby) when it was taken over by the US in 1796. Fort Detroit was also located near Fort Shelby, and that dated back to 1701. It seems to me, that Campus Martius, being so close to forts since 1701, probably operated as a parade ground for much of that time, predating the Ohio Campus Martius by decades. If did in fact take the name from the Marietta fort, than it was only a name applied years later. Given all this info, and assuming it is all true, I suspect it was named Campus Martius in 1796, when Fort Lernoult was taken over by the Americans and renamed Fort Shelby. I see no reason to expect that it would have taken the events of 1812 for it to receive the name. Since the fort was renamed after a Kentucky governor, it would seem just as likely that the grounds be named after an Ohio fort. However, I do not rule out the possibility that the area was NOT named after the Ohio site at all. It may in fact have been named by the British well before the Ohio site was named, since they had been in control of Fort Detroit since the French surrendered it in 1760 during the French and Indian War. One site says 'it is believed to be named after' the Ohio blockade. The same site also says that it was the Woodward plan that gave it the name. Interestingly, Woodward and then-Governor Hull, despite constant bickering, planned to rebuild Detroit after the fire, basing their work on Woodward's notes on Washington DC. And 5 years later, Hull himself gave up Fort Detroit, destroying the US plan to invade Canada. Wikipedia states that Hull marched from Urbana, not Marietta, so if that's true, that would put a hole in the post-1812 theory. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5066 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 2:55 pm: | |
As a kid going to grade school in the the 1960's, I first learned of Campus Martius via our Social Studies teacher at Marquette School. But I had not heard of its' usage beyond the classroom. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 5743 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 3:48 pm: | |
Actually that date of the establishment of the Campus Martius of Marietta 1788 makes much more sense than the establishment of a drill field for a militia in Detroit under British Rule that was expected to end at any time. Possibly that 1788 reference on the Detroit website somehow confused the 2 Campus Martius sites. The coincidence of that date would also lead me to suspect that the area we call Campus Martius was established by the Woodward Plan. BTW the War of 1812 disrupted the implementation of the Woodward Plan. And as far as that map, didn't anyone find disturbing those blocks located in the Detroit River. My assumption, it was drawn later after the shoreline had been extended by landfill. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5071 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 3:59 pm: | |
Interestingly enough that map shows Madison and Monroe Avenues. Madison didn't become president until 1809, and Monroe didn't until 1817. |
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1420 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 4:02 pm: | |
"And as far as that map, didn't anyone find disturbing those blocks located in the Detroit River. My assumption, it was drawn later after the shoreline had been extended by landfill." I don't know, is there a more original copy of the Woodward plan? |
Scottr Member Username: Scottr
Post Number: 697 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 4:12 pm: | |
Good eye, Gistok! I hadn't even thought of that, but certainly shows that this map differs at least slightly from the original plan. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 5744 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 4:28 pm: | |
The name change to Fort Shelby did not occur unti American forces regained Detroit in 1813. http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/hi storic/districts/fort_lernoult .pdf Isaac Shelby was the First and Fifth governor of Kentucky where he had strengthened the militia in the face of the upcoming war. It was his service in regaining American control of the region in the War of 1812 for which the name of the Fort was changed to honor him. |
Scottr Member Username: Scottr
Post Number: 698 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 4:49 pm: | |
in that case, you are probably correct. In my own defense, several sources that most would consider reliable (the Historic Fort Wayne Coalition, for example) seem to differ as to the actual year, several say it happened when the Americans took control in 1796, others say when they regained control in 1813. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 5745 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 6:31 pm: | |
Woodbridge Street shown on the map south of Jefferson was named for William Woodbridge, who moved to Detroit from Marietta in 1814, encouraged by his good friend, Lewis Cass (who also had resided in Marietta}. Is the Detroit connection to Marietta becoming clearer? |
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1423 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 6:36 pm: | |
Well at least it seems that this "1807" (ironic quotes) map may have actually been created after the War of 1812 if it is the case that the name Woodbridge appears on there and the name comes from 1814. Interesting. |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 1793 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 6:39 pm: | |
Point of Origin - which is labeled 1806 (hard to see) Its always amazing how much conversation and information questions about the Campus bring up. |
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1424 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 6:41 pm: | |
Would be interesting to see any maps before 1805 labeled with Campus Martius. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 5746 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 7:01 pm: | |
As to the name of the stockade at Marietta being called Campus Martius. Following the Revolutionary War, there were many comparisons of the US and Rome. Most of the "educated-elite" had "Classical" educations. So as new settlements were established, many of them were given grandiose Latin or Greek names to reflect the greatness they would achieve. Did you ever wonder how all those names of towns and cities with the suffix -polis came about? |
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1787 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 7:38 pm: | |
Yeah, but Indianapolis still sucks. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 5749 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 7:44 pm: | |
Blame it on SSport, he lived there. |
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz
Post Number: 2885 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 7:52 pm: | |
Just for giggles I entered "Campus Martius" into the internet anagram server at http://wordsmith.org/. It found 32,186 anagrams. Many were funny. The first listed was "Pastrami Mucus." |
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk
Post Number: 859 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 8:59 pm: | |
I have postcards from around 1910 that call it Campus Martius. |
Mikem Member Username: Mikem
Post Number: 3423 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 9:00 pm: | |
From "The History of Detroit and Michigan" by Silas Farmer:
quote:The most prominent public square is the Campus Martius, so named after the principal square at Marietta, the first settlement and capital of the Northwest Territory. That square was named Campus Martius by the directors and agents on July 2, 1788, because the blockhouse stood in the centre of it. The Campus Martius of ancient Rome was the most celebrated of its parks or public grounds. It was at first set apart for military exercises and contests, but afterwards became a public park or pleasure-ground, with gardens, theaters, baths, etc. It received the name of Martius from being originally consecrated to Mars, the God of War. One would think that our Campus Martius had been dedicated to every deity, for everything in turn has centered at this hub of the city. It has been occupied as a hay and wood market, as a standing-place for farmers' wagons, and a rendezvous for hucksters and peddlers of every kind. Here patent medicine men, "lightning calculators," cheap jewelry auctioneers, peddlers of knife-sharpeners, cements, toy balloons, oranges and bananas, have filled the air with their cries; and "lifting," "striking," "electrical" and "lung testing" machines have all been operated on this famous square. Huge bonfires have often illuminated the surrounding buildings, and hundreds of political speeches have here been made to the throngs that so many times gathered at this grand old meeting-place. It was not always so attractive as now. Rough, muddy, unpaved, and uneven, only a prophet could have foreseen the present beauty of the place and its surroundings. The first step towards its improvement was made on April 22, 1835, when the recorder of the city submitted a resolution for a committee to cause the Campus Martius to be graded, enclosed, planted with trees, and sodded. The resolution was adopted, and the recorder and Alderman Palmer were appointed as said committee. Under their direction the square was graded down fully four feet, and the earth dug away used to fill in the valley of the Savoyard. The decorating was left until more recent years; and now the wide walks, the plats of grass, the fountains, the flower-beds, and the view afforded, are worthy of any city. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 5753 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 9:48 pm: | |
Mikem, Despite we have no date, as of yet, of the official naming of Detroit's Campus Martius, I owe you a beer, at least, at an FSC for that bit of history from Farmer. I know I'm close, yet I've been unable to find the conclusive proof of my post-War of 1812 contention of the naming of Campus Martius. But, a couple of points: The Ohio militia that gathered at the fort at Marietta to defend Detroit. Lewis Cass and William Woodbridge as well as others, residents of Marietta who moved to Detroit and had a great deal of influence upon Detroit and Michigan history would probably have pushed to honor the volunteer Ohio militia by naming that drill field, Campus Martius |
Scottr Member Username: Scottr
Post Number: 699 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 10:30 pm: | |
A google book search came up with the following: http://tinyurl.com/2x4t5u Detroit and Rome: building on the past by Melanie Grunow Sobocinski; Michele V Ronnick; Marlise Beaudoen; Alfred Berkowitz Gallery (University of Michigan--Dearborn) According to this source, in short, Woodward was familiar with Marietta, since it was a center of government for the Northwest Territory. He may have passed through it on his way to Detroit, on a boat traveling down the Ohio river. When he arrived in Detroit, he found it no longer existed due to the fire, and began the plan for rebuilding, naming an area near the river 'Campus Martius'. my link above takes you to the page that this is found. But scroll up for a map of the woodward plan - the original, repeating plan. I believe i can read "Drawn by Abijah Hull, Surveyor of MICHIGAN January 1807" I think i'll have to hunt this book down, just to read the remarks to the left of the map. Whatever year it was named, Jams, this has been an interesting thread. You've made some fine connections between Detroit and Marietta. (Message edited by scottr on August 12, 2007) (Message edited by scottr on August 13, 2007) |
Alan55 Member Username: Alan55
Post Number: 338 Registered: 09-2005
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 10:39 pm: | |
Here is a post card listed on eBay for Campus Martius that is either 1901 or 1907. Proves that the term was in common usage at least 100 years ago. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Postcard -City-Hall-Campus-Martius-Detr oit-Mich-1901_W0QQitemZ1022502 23790QQihZ005QQcategoryZ924QQr dZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZView Item |
Alan55 Member Username: Alan55
Post Number: 339 Registered: 09-2005
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 10:49 pm: | |
In fact, there are a couple of dozen "Campus Martius" postcards listed on eBay, both completed and open auctions. (Message edited by alan55 on August 12, 2007) |
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker
Post Number: 1874 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 10:52 pm: | |
Campus Martius was also the street name for the south side of the "Kern Block".
|
Scottr Member Username: Scottr
Post Number: 700 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 10:59 pm: | |
So far as the original question, I think there is little doubt that the area has technically had the name for about 200 years. However, I think as automobiles became the norm, and it became little more than a big, jumbled intersection, the name fell into disuse, hence the reason so many don't remember it being used. Wow, hornwrecker, thats a hell of a sign (well, several signs) on sam's. and people think a sign on the compuware building would be tacky? |
Mikem Member Username: Mikem
Post Number: 3424 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 11:10 pm: | |
Jams, I posted that paragraph to explain that the Marietta Campus Martius was named such in 1788, not the one in Detroit as claimed by campusmartiuspark.org. I agree that no one knows when our square was named Campus Martius and I don't disagree with the possibility that the square was named some years after the war. The oldest map drawn from Woodward's plan is from 1806 and shows the unnamed? square. The map linked to by Charlottepaul was published in 1824 even though it's labeled as 1807. By the way, the street grid in Woodward's plan extended all the way to the river; of course this was just a plan and not a map. Also, I'm not finding any mention of Ohio Militia from Marietta being in the city during the war, however, Hull did stop in Marietta on his way down the river from Pittsburg to Cincinnati. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5072 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 11:11 pm: | |
I remember seeing an old map on a DetroitYes thread a few years ago, which predates the Woodward Plan. It had a road near where Atwater is today called "River Road" (I believe it crossed the ribbon farms of the time). The little bit of the city that existed back in the 18th century had a grid plan, IIRC. |
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker
Post Number: 1875 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 11:19 pm: | |
Scottr, Downtown looks pretty sterile and lifeless today, compared to how much signage there was in the past. This night photo of CM shows how the signs were a few years before the above photo.
wsu/vmc (tinted to better show the signage) |
Scottr Member Username: Scottr
Post Number: 701 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 11:36 pm: | |
well before my time, but that would have been an impressive sight. I agree completely about it feeling sterile and lifeless in comparison. Interesting to see how it has changed over the years. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5074 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 12:07 am: | |
Nice pic Hornwrecker. Of course before the mid 1920's when GCP became the heart of the Theatre District, Monroe Ave. was the heart of Detroit's Theatre District for the first 2 decades of the 20th century. Today the National is the only survivor of that long gone era. So many of those lights on the right side of the picture would have been the early (smaller) theatres. |
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1436 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 12:41 am: | |
"Wow, hornwrecker, thats a hell of a sign (well, several signs) on sam's. and people think a sign on the compuware building would be tacky?" ...and people thought that Compuware should have a sign on it. What? and spoil the pristine atmosphere of Campus Martius? |
Kville Member Username: Kville
Post Number: 76 Registered: 04-2007
| Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 6:08 am: | |
I concur with Hornwrecker. We called it the "Kern block" in the 50's. Never heard Campus Martius, even though it was on the maps back then. |
Jams Member Username: Jams
Post Number: 5755 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 6:48 am: | |
quote:Hull's army consisted of the 4th U.S. Infantry under Lieutenant Colonel James Miller, three regiments of Ohio militia under Colonels Lewis Cass, Duncan McArthur and James Findlay, and some small detachments of volunteers from Michigan. http://www.answers.com/topic/s iege-of-detroit |