Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2007 » DDOT AND SMART. Time you share routes. « Previous Next »
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 620
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One idea I think DDOT and SMART should look into, is sharing the routes on Michigan, Grand River, Gratiot, Woodward, Jefferson and Fort Street.

Right now each system is putting money and buses to operate the same service along the spoke roads.

Why don't both systems work on a combined timetable, and share the resources to operate the routes.

For example, lets take Michigan Ave. They could designate that there should be a bus every 15min. So lets for fun say the route takes one hour to complete. So DDOT would provide two buses, and SMART would provide two.
People get better service, and DDOT and SMART get more buses to add to more routes, because they are sharing buses on the busy routes.

It can work. Two area transit systems north of Toronto do this with a cross regional route. Each system supplies equal number of buses, and they operate a more frequent service then if just one system provided it.
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Russix
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Username: Russix

Post Number: 38
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DDOT provides more busses in the city, and SMART covers far more area. They already share the traffic.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 644
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They share the traffic about as well as I could imagine doing it. It is always possible to ride within Detroit on DDOT, within the suburbs on SMART and between Detroit and the suburbs on SMART, and on evenings and weekends (when the DDOT schedule is thinner) SMART also makes local stops in the City.

It is not possible to do what Miketoronto suggests, for logistical reasons. However, the effect of what already happens is just about what he describes. Because the buses tend to get off-schedule by a bit, especially in the afternoon and early evening, attempting to coordinate to a fixed interval would come to grief anyhow.

Now, what could and ought to be done is for each system to incorporate information about the others' schedules into its schedule on the joint lines: Fort, Michigan, Woodward, Harper, Jefferson, Van Dyke and Gratiot. (I think those are the only ones.) That way, anyone with a schedule would have some way to know what their options are.

The "logistical reasons" have to do with the different lengths of runs on the Detroit vs. suburban systems. Take Gratiot: DDOT runs to Eight Mile (well, a little further out Eight Mile to Eastland Mall, but you get the idea) and SMART runs buses alternately to 23 Mile and Gratiot and some go down 23 Mile all the way into downtown New Baltimore.

The real solution is to have a regional rapid transit system to make the long trips, and then let the buses bring people from the RT to their destinations, which is really how the Toronto system works.
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Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman

Post Number: 504
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 6:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miketoronto, None of your ideas that you have posted so far that I have seen would ever work to improve our public bus systems.

This is because they cost too much and do not involve any ideas to support the working class taxpayers. You seem to think from the posts I've read so far that high taxes like in Canada is the only answer period and you seem to think that we just can not do anything without coming to the taxpayers for more.

I'm getting the idea from your most recent post above that you likely support things like a 15 percent sales tax or $5 dollar a gallon at the gas pump as good solutions thinking that government is the best solution for mass transit period.

So, please publicly challenge me if you can. The people on this forum are not a big enough audience. It's the same people posting over and over and very few even think about mass transit.
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Craig
Member
Username: Craig

Post Number: 229
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 8:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

An even better idea is to eliminate duplicate bureaucracies and merge the systems. However, years of DDOT ridership have taught me to NEVER rely upon the City bus system for anything but aggravation. Anyone who's waited an hour and half for a bus only to see three arrive bunched up together understands what I'm saying.
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Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr

Post Number: 708
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 8:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's hardly a phenomenon unique to DDOT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B us_bunching



Trainman seems a little peeved that someone is invading his turf... and as much as I hate to do it, i have to question some of what he says...
quote:

This is because they cost too much and do not involve any ideas to support the working class taxpayers.

why would it cost more to operate the route jointly? why would it not support the working class taxpayer to be able to take a single bus the entire way?
quote:

I'm getting the idea from your most recent post above that you likely support things like a 15 percent sales tax or $5 dollar a gallon at the gas pump as good solutions thinking that government is the best solution for mass transit period.

where did you get that idea? i don't see any suggestion for raised taxes. putting words in his mouth?
quote:

So, please publicly challenge me if you can.

Why so confrontational? As soon as someone suggests something, you get defensive and act as if you have the ONLY option? Are you so bold as to assume you don't need to hear anyone else's opinion?
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Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 648
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 11:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DDOT also has the problem that they do not adequately maintain the buses, so many of the trips do not operate at all. It happens on SMART but not as often. I frequently ride both, which is what I'm basing this on.

The essential difficulty with a merger is funding. SMART is supported by a more-or-less-regional tax, with the weird characteristic that Wayne and Oakland Counties allow individual communities to decide whether to pay the tax or not. (Macomb's tax is countywide, and every community in that County has some form of bus service.) DDOT is supported from the City budget.

Overall, the basic difficulty with transit throughout the region is we do not pay for it like other regions do. For regions with populations similar to ours, the per-capita funding for transit (from all sources) is over $200; in metro Detroit it is under $100. So we are getting what we are paying for.

And I will jump on board with this: if we want good transit we have to be willing to pay for it, period. There is no magic money box, the federal government only pays for a portion of anything.

Incidentally, of all the cities in the U.S. that have good transit, nobody has a sales tax anywhere near 15%, and the gas prices in nearly every other city are lower than in Detroit.

Also, metro Toronto has very good transit, and there are many different transit operators. So a merger is not necessary for good service.
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Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman

Post Number: 505
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A merger is not necessary but what is are operating budgets. Our leaders insist on a single source of operating funds which is exactly what killed the SMART buses in Livonia.
Multiple funding sources are what makes every good transit system serve the best needs of all.

When people suggest a merger they should understand that a DDOT and SMART one is costly and two independent studies show this to be about $200 Million per year and an increase in suburban local taxes, if cost savings are not secured. The DARTA just ignored the facts and pushed very hard on Livonia residents who laughed and joked at city hall. I tried to stop this non-sense but the Transportation Riders United supported this with rose colored glasses and the false propaganda that large transit systems get more federal transit grants, which is not TRUe at all. The solution is for all of us to work together for the benefit of all but instead we keep shifting money away from existing needs to expand roads and rail service with the idea that somehow our existing needs will just take care of themselves with a small tax increase at city hall. So, lets remove the KKK like members at all level of government by all of us voting to get them removed. At Livonia city hall, there was much support for Novi, Genoa TWP., Lapeer, Scio TWP but not Livonia or Detroit.

I want to make it clear in Black and White that I'm fighting to protect Detroit from being a slum because if I don't then Livonia will also become one. The post above was cut down only because it was not backed up with facts. The fact is that a merger is costly without additional industry support period. Thus should never be attempted without more jobs and more money from jobs first. The DARTA leaders did not care about jobs but if they did then Livonia would have stayed in the W.C.T.A. as it was a close vote. Mostly, we need leaders at the state level because this will work the best to get Livonia back based on my knowledge of mass transit funding. This is because if the voters see lots of riders and investments then they will likely pay a transit tax based on the APTA statistics that most will support mass transit even if they do not use it. This is consistent with the passage of SMART millages and Livonia will come back if we do not bring back an incompetent merger which was the case with DARTA.

Miketoronto, I do like your posts but a merger IS costly at this time and not necessary. I'm sorry but if our leaders worked as hard to improve bus service as they do to raise taxes, I would still have SMART bus service.

Miketoronto, Our leaders look at Canada and try and tell the people that it is money and they ignore the idea of more money from jobs and this is wrong and when you post things they look and get ideas that are wrong because the real answer is more opportunities for everyone to participate to build a great mass transit system.

Miketoronto, we can do this, we put the world on wheels, we do not have to put up with average at best mass transit. I hope you can understand this a little more so your posts can make a difference as opposed to giving our leaders another lame excuse for yet another tax increase for more broken promises.
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Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr

Post Number: 709
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Trainman, you seem to have misread the original post. Miketoronto did not propose a merger, but a joint operation along the spokes.
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Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman

Post Number: 506
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 7:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But this requires dedicated operating budgets which both SMART and DDOT do not have.

The state tax on fuel is no longer used to pay for operating expenses such as drivers salaries. My proposal for multiple dedicated operating budgets is presently a joke among top government and transit leaders. Unless the suburbs pay for DDOT or we protect federal and state funding, it won't happen. Of course unless we can all pay at the fare-box.

I want people to understand as clear as black and white that we must pay and/or lower the costs if we ever want decent public transit. It is not cheap and our state leaders will not give in at paying more fuel taxes or even leaving the present ones alone without proving that there are any reasons to do so.
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Pmardo
Member
Username: Pmardo

Post Number: 59
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tax me Professor Scott!

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