  Hpgrmln Member Username: Hpgrmln Post Number: 89 Registered: 06-2007 |
I started off with an 87 Honda. Over 100,000 miles when I bought it. The original Alternator and exhaust didn't need replacement until about 115,000. Then I had a '94 Z24. The v6 was a nice engine, but at 72,000 miles the door paneling was already seperated. Soon after, the armrests split open.as a result, the centerpiece could no longer hold the weight of my elbow and that cracked open in several places.Thenew Saturns Ive seen at dealers looked just as bad and cheap brand new. For whats its worth, I then bought a 2k cavalier at 35,000 miles. It has 94k now and the interior is much improved. The components got much better between '94 and 2000. My armrests are thicker plastic and can still hold the weight of my arm.Hopefully Saturn will follow suit. HOWEVER.....many people who bought a GM car from the 80's to mid-90's are gone forever.they switched to toyota and nothing will convince them to come back. Having interiors self-destruct at 75,000 miles does not build confidence.My older Honda had a more intact interior at higher mileage with the same amount of treatment or neglect.I honestly believe the car earned its reputation. But I will give GM credit for fixing some of the flaws, even though its too late for too many consumers who became disillusioned.Quality control problems can lose a customer for life. Im not even including my aforementioned AMC because thats a 30+ year old car from a defunct company so theres not much of a point. So, thats my unbiased observation from a consumers/car owners standpoint. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2551 Registered: 07-2004 |
Hmm scottr I did not know that they let blind people build cars..... if that is really what you do. The Lucerne is such an obvious copy of lexus; especially the interior. And when their tv ads (among others) mention the car they are emulating (lexus) that kinda seals the deal. But then there is nothing wrong with aspiring to emulate the best. I'll say it once more lexus uses better quality parts. And the workmanship is done better too. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 135 Registered: 02-2007 |
Citylover, you never answered my question as to what City is it that you love so much. I'll say this once more for you... WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! OUT OF A JOB YET....KEEP BUYING FOREIGN. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2552 Registered: 07-2004 |
Buy American I don't know how else to put this so I will be blunt and unkind.......your post are all bullshit and you need to take another approach. Legacy and health care costs are killing the domestics. Put that with a shoddy product for too long and you get the predicament that the american co's find themselves in today. Of course perhaps many many years ago had they concentrated on quality rather than styling things might be different- but they didn't and hindsight is of course always right. For you to say idiotic things like it takes months to get parts for production vehicle foreign ( i.e. japanese) cars fools no one. The reason being people get parts for their foregn cars everyday. The american cars are damned good.They have improved immensely.But Buick is not lexus_ that was my original point. And now my new point is to implore you to come up with another tact this one has no credibility and it obviously aint working. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 695 Registered: 07-2006 |
well, cl, I see you've lowered yourself to personal attacks. You've done nothing to prove your case, so you apparently had to resort to calling me blind. I refuse to stoop to that level, so i'm done here. And yes, i did do that for over a year and a half. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 136 Registered: 02-2007 |
Citylover, it never ceases to amaze me that whenever people are backed up against a wall, they resort to name calling, or foul language, ie., "your post are all bullshit and you need to take another approach." I think you are the one who needs to take another approach. You don't have enough respect to put a capital "A" on the word "America" in your posts. It shows your distain for America, where you live. Obviously, you don't want to answer my question and I doubt your validity. It seems as though you can't have a decent, civilized conversation with some people on this forum who disagree with you. It isn't the fault of the automakers for high health costs. Hospital's, doctors fees, prescription costs, lab costs, all of those factor into the high cost. It's people like you who will continue to purchase foreign automobiles and let the American auto industry fall by the wayside because of a false perception that foreign is better. There will be no middle class in America, just the very very rich, and the very very poor. At least I can say proudly that I will support my country in any way I can and buy American products whenever I can. America is being cut into pieces bit by bit by foreign entities. It's bad enough now that I have to push "1" for English on the telephone, what's next? | ||
Kslice Member Username: Kslice Post Number: 134 Registered: 04-2007 |
I almost fully agree with Buyamerican. I make it a point to use a capital A in America and wouldnt't be caught dead in a Toyota/shiny Toyota (Lexus).Manufacturing has always been the backbone of the middle class, without it we sease to exist. My only hope is that the UAW works their way into Toyota and levels the playing field. BUY AMERICAN OR BETTER YET, BUY DETROITIAN | ||
Hpgrmln Member Username: Hpgrmln Post Number: 90 Registered: 06-2007 |
Toyota doesn't sell products using intimidation. They find out what people want and build it. Then you have line-worker propagandists who try to scare people by telling them that the country will die if you don't buy their product. Product people want in the first place vs.product they don't like as much but placing a guilt trip on them.Which is the better sales tactic? Yes, Buick is building what people want. But they were stuck in a rut for awhile catering to the elderly market. The stigma of being an old mans car has stuck.Younger buyers have gone off to Mazda and Mitsubishi where they actually find out what the people want and build it. People wanted hybrids. Toyota mastered it first and got that horrible-looking Prius on the market. Kids want sporty cars. So Mitsubishi gives them the Eclipse while these big-3 autoworkers use intimidation to try to push an Ion Redline (worst car I've ever seen in terms of build quality)which looks cheap and boxy, Or a Neon RT, which is still a Neon.I suspect people working for the big 3 are intimidated because their company sat by building generic cars while the competition became more advanced.The intimidation I'm seeing on here as a way to sell products looks more like someone trying to put the blame on someone else for the fact that the corporation they worked for dropped the ball and was behind the times while their competitors did their homework. Look, its not the consumers fault that another company has something that better suits their needs or has the look and features that they would rather spend their money on.People have a choice to buy what truly fits them just like others have a right to boycott them. But selling a product through intimidation just turns them off and makes them feel insulted. I'm not knocking the passion people like BuyAmerican embody, but im saying their sales tactics of fear and intimidation further turn people off. GM has now started offering a 100,000 mile warranty on some of its parts.I hear Chrysler will be offering a limited LIFETIME warranty on some of theirs.This is the kind of technique that SHOULD be used:Give the consumer what they want. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1993 Registered: 10-2003 |
As a first-time Toyota owner, I have to say that the quality of US-built cars does seem to have gotten better over the last five years or so. However, because of the fierce competition out there now for the prospective new car buyer's dollar, there is largely zero tolerance for quality and/or design flaws (note to GM, Ford, and DCX: we won't put up with parts falling off, window/wiper motors wearing out, or cracked plastic trim any more). If a car is perceived to be flimsy, it won't sell. If a car gets poor fuel economy, it won't sell (boy, those big SUVs are starting to pile up -- unsold -- on dealers' lots now). The more I drive my Yaris, the more I like it. No fit, finish, or build problems. Runs like a top and delivers 35 mpg like clockwork, no matter how much city driving or 80-mph freeway driving I do. But I will consider an American car when I'm ready for another new vehicle, if the US automakers continue their quest for quality AND pursue higher fuel efficiency standards. So, I'll be looking at new cars again around the time the 2013 models come out. Hopefully, the US car companies can survive that long. It would be nice to drive a US-designed, US-made, versatile, durable, well-engineered vehicle that delivers 35-45 mpg (and doesn't cost an arm and a leg). We'll see. | ||
Bratt Member Username: Bratt Post Number: 585 Registered: 01-2004 |
Buyamerican: I do not have to make excuses. I have been burned by American automobile products. You have been lucky..congratulations. I watch others. My cousin bought a Ford Explorer brand new and it is in the shop every other week. Forget that mess! I do not believe in investing money in ANYTHING just because it was made in a certain place. you give ME quality, I will give you my business. It is as simple as that. You provide me with top notch customer service....I will keep buying from you....real simple. But if you screw me over and over...shame on me if I keep buying from you. I had no plans whatsoever to start buying Lexus. They called ME. I told them I wasn't interested, but I went out there to check it out. They treated me like they wanted my business....long term. Now I am not saying that they do not have issues sometimes with their vehicles, but guess what? They acknowledge when there is a problem, and fix it. Not give you a hundred excuses why it's not their fault and they aren't fixing it. I now buy my cars over the phone...they know me and what I like. So I guess you are saying that everyone will lose their jobs if they buy foreign? If I lose my job it won't be because of what car I drive. Believe that. You must work for them. That's fine. My ex-husband does too. He has worked for them for many, many years. He doesn't get on me for what I drive...he actually loves my truck. And oh, by the way...the salesman I buy from is American...and his co-workers are American. I guess I am supporting those Americans. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 138 Registered: 02-2007 |
Bratt, the handwriting is on the wall, can't you read it? Just look at Michigan alone. Ever since the U.S. automakers have closed plants, moved plants, shut down lines, layed off employees, the foreclosure rate on homes in Michigan is higher than its' ever been. People are defaulting on loans left and right. Now, if you can give me a good reason why this is happening without including the auto industry in the equation, I'll go away. I don't work for the auto company, not that it matters in my beliefs. I'm an American and I believe that we should support our own. It's hard enough to buy anything anymore that's strictly American. The thing that I am certain of is that whatever profit Chrysler made from selling me a car stayed in America and supported an American worker. Yes, there are American workers who are employed by foreign automakers. They get paid a decent wage, but no one is looking out for them in the big picture. Very little health care, no retirement benefits, and no union to protect them when they get a little older and the company wants them out to replace them with a younger person for less pay. You are looking at it from a standpoint that you want quality for your money...who doesn't? My Chrysler now, and my GM car last year and my Dodge SUV two years before have all been superb automobiles. Nothing has fallen off, come apart, rusted off, peeled back or been inferior in any way. The dealers have treated me with courtesy and respect. Maybe you have gone into dealers with an attitude because you expect the worse. Again, the bottom line is that I am not going to turn my back on U.S. automakers because someone is telling me that foreign is better because frankly, they are not better. Maybe more expensive, but not better. | ||
Hpgrmln Member Username: Hpgrmln Post Number: 93 Registered: 06-2007 |
Before I'm done, I have a few final points to make: 1)Buisness has to be earned. Either build a high-quality product, or stand behind it and insure confidence.Every single person Ive known that had a Chrysler minivan had premature transmission failures. The same is true of the trannys and engines in Dodge Intrepids.A lot of people got tired of replacing those parts at 70,000 miles and swore off American cars. Kia's are the crappiest cars out there, but they offer the 100,000 mile warranty that builds confidence.Buyers feel that the company gives them something extra in return. 2)If the economy is failing because of the automakers, then its their fault. They weren't proactive enough to demand better parts and higher expectations from both their workers and their dealer networks.They tried slipping by while the competion got more innovative and buyers were jealous that their friends Toyotas and Hondas weren't breaking as badly. 3)I took my car into the dealer for a minor repair. One of those then-new Chevy retro pickups (I think it was called an SSR?) drove by as i was waiting in the showroom.A salesman shook his head and said "Those wont sell. Who's going to buy that? It's $20,000 overpriced." How can you blame buyers for not buying American when a salesman in a dealer showroom openly reveals that he doesn't support/believe in the product his commission relies on? | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 139 Registered: 02-2007 |
To purchase a "crappy" Kia based solely on the 100,000 mile warranty is ludicrous. All of the foreign car companies are laughing at the gullible Americans all the way to THEIR bank and in THEIR country. What do ANY of them do for the U.S.? I don't see Toyota in Detroit, I don't see Honda in Detroit, I don't see any foreign auto company in Detroit. Incidentally, I haven't read anywhere on this site any story about bad service, surly salespeople, or a bad experience in general at any foreign car dealer. Does that mean that it's all been good and no one has anything negative to say? I assume that they are all really good "people" persons. To all of you out there in la la land who think foreign is better, good luck. You can put your spin on why you should continue to buy foreign instead of American but it doesn't cut it. There are no excuses why you don't support your country and it's products. WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! OUT OF A JOB YET...KEEP BUYING FOREIGN! (Message edited by Buyamerican on August 13, 2007) | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1997 Registered: 10-2003 |
By Jingo!!! | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1350 Registered: 04-2006 |
I don't see Toyota in Detroit, I don't see Honda in Detroit, I don't see any foreign auto company in Detroit. Cuz you aren't looking. Toyota has a very large technical center in Ann Arbor employing a fairly large number of engineers. Honda has their North American HQ about 4 hours south of Detroit in Columbus. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1351 Registered: 04-2006 |
What do ANY of them do for the U.S.? Also, some Asian countries (like China and Japan) are heavily invested in American reserves. If/when they decide to begin removing their money the value of the dollar falls even more... which might make manufacturing as an industry in America attractive again, but would make the cost of things like gas and other imported goods go through the roof for us. | ||
Kslice Member Username: Kslice Post Number: 136 Registered: 04-2007 |
In US jobs there's no comparison. Ford alone employs more people in the US than all the importers put together!!! http://www.levelfieldinstitute .org/docs/scorecards/ford-v-to yota-scorecard-lfi.pdf I always hear all these horror stories about domestics. I have always had good fords/Lincolns. I know this guy who drove a 02' Focus, he would set the cruse control to 60 and just take it on and off and never touch the peddle. last year his engin just gave up. Now he goes around telling everyone to never buy a Ford. Real smart. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 140 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Cuz you aren't looking. Toyota has a very large technical center in Ann Arbor employing a fairly large number of engineers. Honda has their North American HQ about 4 hours south of Detroit in Columbus" Iheartthed...you aren't reading my posts...I don't see Toyota, Honda, or any foreign auto companies in DETROIT! A few engineers in Ann Arbor and a HQ in Columbus, Ohio doesn't do much to convince me. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1356 Registered: 04-2006 |
Iheartthed...you aren't reading my posts...I don't see Toyota, Honda, or any foreign auto companies in DETROIT! A few engineers in Ann Arbor and a HQ in Columbus, Ohio doesn't do much to convince me. Well... there are a lot of other things that aren't in Detroit either... like supermarkets. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1691 Registered: 10-2003 |
Apparently not enough people on here had grandfathers who would've smacked some sense upside their heads if they heard this crap about not caring what country your car comes from, or where those profits go. I'm sure they'd all be real proud of themselves if a real major world war broke out, and we had no factories left to make tanks, airplanes, etc. | ||
Dannaroo Member Username: Dannaroo Post Number: 119 Registered: 05-2006 |
I think my grandfather (who retired from Ford by the way) would be more concerned that I was able to make a decision based upon all of the facts at hand including what suits me best for my situation. When I bought my new car back in January, I did indeed consider American cars; I don't discount making a major purchase based upon where that product was made - the origin of the product is just one of the many pieces of information I use when I make a purchase. For me, at the end of the car-buying process, it came down to the final price of the vehicle, the immediate availability, styling, and the options that I was looking for. The hard fact of the matter is that the Mazda I was looking at was able to fulfill all of those requirements, the Ford I was looking at, was not able to. People who try to guilt me into buying American for America's sake will get nowhere with me. When a product is inferior and does not meet my wants and needs, I am not going to subsidize a company by buying that product which in turn will just take away the incentive to build a product that more people want. In the end, I do feel sorry for those who are affected by the decline of the American auto industry, but the auto industry has brought this on themselves. This is America, this is a capitalist society; to my knowledge, nobody has ever held a gun to an American consumer's head and forced them to purchase a foreign automobile. If Ford, GM, and Chrysler want to survive, they MUST build a product that people want to buy in greater numbers than foreign product. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 141 Registered: 02-2007 |
"In the end, I do feel sorry for those who are affected by the decline of the American auto industry, but the auto industry has brought this on themselves." Dannaroo, in the end you'd better feel sorry for yourself as well, because we ARE ALL affected by the decline of the American auto industry. They didn't bring this upon themselves either. Foreign auto buyers are doing this by not being loyal to American autos, pure and simple. I am still amazed at how gullible you "buy foreign" people are. You have tunnel vision and I don't think much will change your mind until you're hit hard in the pocketbook. By that, I mean in every aspect of life as you know it, because that's what will happen. Times are changing in America and until you wake up and realize that you're selling America down the river it may be too late. The only thing you all think about is your pocketbook and I sure hope you have some deep pockets in the very near future. American cars are quality cars and the excuses I have been reading from the advocates of buying foreign are lame to say the least. | ||
Dannaroo Member Username: Dannaroo Post Number: 122 Registered: 05-2006 |
quote: So American consumers should buy a product that does not meet their standards (by no means am I saying that everybody's standards are rational or logical) out of loyalty? I am not advocating buying foreign over buying American. What I am advocating is the freedom of the consumer to make their own choice. And seriously, I still fail to see how the American auto makers did not bring on their troubles themselves. The fact is that this is a competitive marketplace and they failed to build a product that enough people wanted to buy instead of a Toyota or Honda or some other vehicle. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 144 Registered: 02-2007 |
Dannaroo, yes you are advocating buying foreign over American, otherwise there would be no debate. And, yes, thank God Americans do have the freedom to make their own choices, I am not debating that at all. I am saying that Americans need to be loyal to America, this is where we live, work, play and die. I cannot for the life of me believe that there isn't one American automobile out there that wouldn't satisfy your needs. Again, it's all a perceived notion that foreign is better. So you are saying that within all of the Big 3 companies, none of the engineers, designers, or technicians ever came up with anything that Americans wanted? Sorry, I can't accept that. I've been buying American automobiles for 40+ years and other than a few minor problems with a couple of them over the years, I've never been disappointed. | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 1192 Registered: 02-2007 |
Let's put it this way: Toyotas and Nissans sold here and around the world have a lot of engineering work done right here. Toyota builds here. (don't think Nissan does, but not sure)Fair enough, BUT: Toyota has stated in its annual reports that government programs (health care, currency manipulation, etc) save it an average of $7000 per car. That is a HUGE subsidy to the company. When will Americans wise up and realize that Ford, GM and Chrysler aren't competing against Toyota, but that the concept of Japan, Inc. is still alive and kicking our asses? | ||
Dannaroo Member Username: Dannaroo Post Number: 123 Registered: 05-2006 |
quote: I never said that. What I said was that for the money I was going to spend, my needs and wants were fulfilled better elsewhere. In fact, I also own two Jeeps (a 2000 Jeep Wrangler and a 1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer neither of which are good for my commuting needs right now). BuyAmerican, you have once again not answered my question as to how the American auto makers have not brought on their problems themselves. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1702 Registered: 10-2003 |
"BuyAmerican, you have once again not answered my question as to how the American auto makers have not brought on their problems themselves." Some of those problems involve Union demands, the fact that foreign automakers are subsidized by their governments, and don't have health care costs, etc. So those would be examples of problems NOT brought on by American auto makers. However, if Americans would buy American, those problems could be overcome, because the money would be there to move through those fiscal issues and still produce quality vehicles. (And support our economy, ensuring you and I have jobs) | ||
Hpgrmln Member Username: Hpgrmln Post Number: 94 Registered: 06-2007 |
Notice everytime BuyAmerican makes his cliched statments about the economy 3 people come on with stronger, more sound, legitimate excuses to counterpoint him. He's already lost the argument by mere virtue of recycling his same stubborn advertising lines. What Detroit should have done 30 years ago was diversify.We should have tried harder to have different kinds of industries beyond just Automotive. Now that other corporations are beating us at our own game, we're left to suffer for our over-reliance on one industry. Lets move on. This argument is getting stale and peoples defenses are geting more and more far-fetched. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1998 Registered: 10-2003 |
" I cannot for the life of me believe that there isn't one American automobile out there that wouldn't satisfy your needs." There isn't. "What Detroit should have done 30 years ago was diversify. We should have tried harder to have different kinds of industries beyond just Automotive. Now that other corporations are beating us at our own game, we're left to suffer for our over-reliance on one industry." Damn right! | ||
Mikie Member Username: Mikie Post Number: 73 Registered: 06-2006 |
Wow, I’m just getting caught up on responses in this thread and it really went out into left field. The whole point of starting the thread was to point out that the domestics brands have been improving as stated by JD powers, but somehow it became a war between what’s better, a Lexus or a Buick! I think that everyone knows that a Buick is not a Lexus and isn’t intended to be one, the cars are in a different class, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t score high (or in this case the same) in initial and long term quality, JD Powers has stated so. Just an after thought, to the person who stated that Lexus uses superior quality parts, better workmanship and engineering which reflects in its price, I’m curious how an inferior product as Buick has been able to make a product that scores the same in initial and long term quality for less money? Maybe we should give credit were credit is due, just a thought. |
