 
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 7
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 2:20 pm: |    |
Don't bother arguing with Irish_Mafia. He's a schill for the anti-tax/anti-gov't Michigan Militia-esque types we have.
He's using the same list here as has been posted over at the Freep.com. I'd hazard a guess he's probably an alternate for the screen names Big2supplier or Unnecessary Evil over there.
He's just baiting anyone who will argue with him. He's like Kraft macaroni; looks like the real thing but has no substance. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 652
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 2:29 pm: | |
All I'm learning here is that socialists and libertarians disagree on things. What news!
I'm not anti-tax but I think if the public got to line-item vote on government expenditures - not the amount, just yes or no - we would find that the government (at nearly every level) is spending money in a lot of ways the public doesn't agree with.
We would find, if we only wanted the government to spend money on the things a majority of us agreed to, we could even add some things we'd like and there'd be plenty of money to go around, IMHO. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3769
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 2:35 pm: | |
Every one of the 56,000 non-Constitutional state jobs should come under, at least, biennial review in order to see that (1) those employed are competent and (2) actually needed. Needing 56,000 of them seems overly much. |
Ordinary
Member
Username: Ordinary
Post Number: 247
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 3:10 pm: | |
I'm with lilpup. I'm in the 'under 57,500 crowd by a long margin.
Finley is a jackass. I don't want to read about his crocodile tears for people making 150K a year; nevertheless, I'd like to be one of them. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 61
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 4:45 pm: | |
"I'm not anti-tax but I think if the public got to line-item vote on government expenditures - not the amount, just yes or no - we would find that the government (at nearly every level) is spending money in a lot of ways the public doesn't agree with."
Do you think so? People like to talk about "government waste, fraud and abuse". But it's never their government program that they want cut. Look at how "Red States" suck down farm and infrastructure subsidies. Look at how people don't want tax breaks for the rich but think they are entitled to their tax deductions for home mortgage interest, etc. That's why FairTax proponents will never succeed. Despite everyone saying they want a simplified tax structure and lower taxes, they don't want to have to give up their goodies, no matter how unnecessary they may seem. And don't even get me started on tax breaks, subsidies and gimmes to big business. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 62
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 4:52 pm: | |
I would guess that most people in the state don't have a clue that prisons account for almost 18,000 full-time positions in state government.
http://www.senate.michigan.gov /sfa/StateBudget/FTEs_Appropri ationsCurrent.pdf |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3053
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 5:11 pm: | |
quote:Do you really want to compare America's booming economy to the failed socialist economies of Europe and elsewhere? By any measure, we win hands down.
Our economy is booming? Maybe you can explain why the U.S. Dollar has been sliding against the British Pound and the Euro for the past five years, not to mention the Canadian Dollar.
And last I checked, European economies were still functioning without resorting to the subprime loan shell game, and tax cuts for the wealthiest 2%.
quote:This zealot believes that a 20% cap of all fed, state and local taxes and fees would be a good position.
Based on what? Is that 20% going to be able to fund necessary functions of government? We don't have enough tax revenues to pay for Defense or infrastructure as it is.
I don't know how a rational person can look at the state of our nation, and of states like Michigan, and say that we have overfunded government programs. You are always welcome to move to an uninhabited island, where taxation = zero. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1011
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 5:29 pm: | |
UMCS,
So, you used your 7th post to tell this board who you think I am?
I think that this group has a pretty clear idea of what my opinions are and most of the time I am able to have intelligent debates with people here.
If you had read my posts, you would know that I am what I am and you don't have to make up an identity that has nothing to do with me.
You on the other hand are an enigma who has appeared out of thin air. After another 1000 posts, if you last that long, we may know your views of the world too.
Try to be polite when you share them. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1012
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 5:33 pm: | |
Dan,
Thanks for the invite. I've been to a lot of islands and plan to visit more.
How's that European unemployment rate working for you? |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3055
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 5:36 pm: | |
^^^Are you suggesting that employment and taxation are directly correlated with one another, and that no other factors are involved?
When was the last time you lost a job because your taxes were too high? |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1013
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 5:38 pm: | |
Dan,
Unemployment and taxes are directly correlated. Yes
Still working... and not on the public's nickel. How about you? |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 108
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 5:41 pm: | |
Mafia, the U.S. growth rate is currently BELOW those "socialist" countries you deride.
Time to pick up the Journal or FT. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3056
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 5:42 pm: | |
quote:Still working... and not on the public's nickel. How about you?
Not that it's any of your business, but yup.
I'm not the brightest guy in the world. Can you explain how unemployment correlates to levels of taxation? I don't see too many folks getting laid off because they owe too much in taxes. |
Gmich99
Member
Username: Gmich99
Post Number: 229
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 5:53 pm: | |
High taxes have not driven Europe into 3rd world status. With their high taxes they receive a true 1st world standard of living. I would gladly pay higher taxes to support a developed society, which can be enjoyed regardless of what county or city you live. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1014
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 5:53 pm: | |
Taxes go up, investment is reduced, businesses close, jobs go away.
Its a simple equation D, but then I'm a simple guy. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3057
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 5:57 pm: | |
quote:Its a simple equation D, but then I'm a simple guy.
One could say "too simple".
Thanks for the clear answers and explanations, by the way. Your posts remind me of an episode of South Park:
1. Collect Underpants
2. ???
3. Profit |
Gmich99
Member
Username: Gmich99
Post Number: 230
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 5:58 pm: | |
Irish-
You really are simple. Our society is behind the rest of the developed world. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3058
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 6:04 pm: | |
Oh wait! I figured out how to use Google!
Here's an article originally printed in the Washington Post on March 15, 2004. Irish_mafia will especially find this interesting.
http://reclaimdemocracy.org/ar ticles_2004/tax_rates_unemploy ment_correlation.html
quote:Total taxation in Sweden, including local taxes, is equal to 59.2 percent of that country's economy, the highest level in the 27-member Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. In contrast, the U.S. total tax burden is 30.6 percent, lowest among the OECD members. Yet unemployment for the past two years in Sweden has been considerably lower than U.S. levels. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1015
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 6:06 pm: | |
GMich,
Our society leads the rest of the world. Try to say with us. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3059
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 6:11 pm: | |
^^^In what, pray tell, do we lead (other than sheer arrogance and ignorance)?
America! Fuck yeah! |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1016
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 6:17 pm: | |
Good research work D,
Did they say how many are employed by the govt.?
They didn't say what Sweden's rate was (or I missed it), I believe that our rate today after all those devastating tax cuts is 4.7%. What is Sweden's today? |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1017
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 7:10 pm: | |
So we have gone from a "tax everything, because all taxes are good" thread to an "America sucks" thread. Not very impressive debate kids.
The condescension some of you have for your own country and your complete lack of appreciation for what has been given to you is amazing and disturbing.
A couple things easily googled about the greatest country on the planet:
The United States is not only the world’s largest economy; it has also grown faster between 1986 and 2005 than any other major developed economy.
The United States has been responsible for one third of global growth over the past 15 years.
American workers are among the world’s most productive, and they have increased productivity dramatically since 1995 through the production and use of information technology—increasing
America’s productivity lead on Europe and Japan.
High levels of productivity allow Americans to compete against low-cost producers around the world.
The United States remains the world’s largest manufacturer and one of the world’s top exporters.
The United States is the wealthiest large economy in the world, and average incomes and wealth for Americans have grown rapidly over the past 20 years.
America leads the world in medical research. We spend more on medical research than any other country.
America leads the world in cancer, AIDS, and all other medical research and generate 40 percent of the world's economy.
American tourism drives a fair portion of the European economy.
America leads the world in developing and applying information and communications technologies
America leads the world in cheese production
American's donate more money to charities than any other country.
America leads the world in government funding for research. America currently spends one and a half times more on federally funded research and development than all the European Union countries combined, and three times more than Japan, the next highest investor in R&D.
Our scientists collectively have the best laboratories in the world, the most extensive infrastructure supporting research, the greatest opportunities to pursue novel lines of investigation, and the most freedom to turn their discoveries into profitable ventures if they are inclined to do so.
We are leaders not only in virtually every scientific and technical field, but also leaders in translating laboratory results into new medicines, technologies and safe, affordable products that enhance the lives of each and every one of us every day |
Titancub
Member
Username: Titancub
Post Number: 70
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 8:19 pm: | |
America does rock. Back to the tax topic for a moment.
Under both proposals, families of modest means will be hit with higher taxes (plan 1 if you make more then $87K, plan 2 if you make more then $66K). US Median household income is $67K so you can see not only the 'rich' are hit by the tax plans.
Second - the US has relatively low individual tax rates but leads the industrial world in corporate taxes. This and growth has correlated in other countries who lowered their corporate taxes.
Third - Lower taxes in MI have in fact helped and slow the tide. It can't buck all trends though but the slowly decreasing income tax rate has helped MI Collections stay the same from 5 years ago. If the economy was healthy at all in MI the past 5 years tax revenues would've boomed.
Dan, were you call me and others clowns who believe that lower taxes increase revenues? I agree that running up deficits repeatedly isn't optimal fiscal policy - but again, this has been a spending story not a revenue issue. |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 989
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 8:47 pm: | |
Dan in DC, nobody minds paying taxes, but the taxes here are already crushing. We make about $140K and pay $23K each year in property tax, and now they want another $10K for income tax. Plus the taxes are so high you get kicked into the AMT and have to then pay more federal tax. I do not get $40K in services each year from my state and local government. My kids don't even go to the fucking schools. It's robbery and I'm sick to death of being sucked dry.
This is fing ridiculous. I was not put on this earth solely to pay for the retirement and lifetime health care of the civil servants of Michigan.
Besides myself, I'm keeping three other people in this god forsaken shithole of state employed and with medical care, and if they raise the taxes any more, I am moving the hell out of here and taking my business with me.
How about they cut the waste and fat starting with these outragous pension plans and health care benefits for state and local employees.
You can pontificate all you want about social justice, but you're not the one getting fucked. Why don't you donate $20 or $30 grand to the state of Michigan if you're so worried about it. You probably consume as many services from your armchair in DC as I do here, which is about zero. |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 509
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 9:00 pm: | |
There is support for a one half cent mass transit county sales tax to be tacked on to our existing taxes. The supporters of this are saying that the present property tax for mass transit will be gone thus everyone will pay including tourists instead of only the property owners.
One possible advantage of this is with this being county wide, our bus routes could be more direct instead of being cut up. The state constitution would have to be changed but Michigan is one of the states that still do not have local sales taxes. They have become popular all over the U.S.A. Transit tax advocates say that cities like Chicago have this and that this could be used to help our transit providers with much needed funding for operating expenses that are no longer funded with state funds anymore.
I'm interested in all your thoughts on this as many special interest groups are supporting this making this very possible. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3060
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 9:47 pm: | |
quote:So we have gone from a "tax everything, because all taxes are good" thread to an "America sucks" thread. Not very impressive debate kids.
The condescension some of you have for your own country and your complete lack of appreciation for what has been given to you is amazing and disturbing.
No one said "America sucks". Some of us think we can do better as a nation, though. Compare this to wanting more nickels in your own pockets.
quote:Dan in DC, nobody minds paying taxes, but the taxes here are already crushing. We make about $140K and pay $23K each year in property tax, and now they want another $10K for income tax. Plus the taxes are so high you get kicked into the AMT and have to then pay more federal tax. I do not get $40K in services each year from my state and local government.
Which leaves you plenty of money to do with as you please. That's a HELL of a lot of money, especially in Michigan. Am I supposed to feel sorry for you?
You pay taxes to support the infrastructure that ALLOWS YOU to make the living you do. Why is that so hard to understand? And why can't people ever be grateful for what they have?
As I've previously stated, Michigan's average state/local levels of taxation in 2005 were 10.1% of income. That is EXACTLY the national average. However, Michigan is performing near the bottom of the barrel economically, even while "high-tax" states are kicking ass. There doesn't seem to be a correlation here.
For the record, DC's residential property tax rate is $0.88 per $100 of assessed value (which is 100% of market value, unlike Michigan). Sales tax is 5.75%. Restaurant tax is 10%. Then there's the 6% excise tax for bringing a car into the city, and an income tax with a top marginal rate of 8.5% for income beyond $40,000 per year (lowest rate is 4.0% for amounts up to $10,000/yr). But somehow, the population is stable, and people seem to enjoy living here. Maybe it's because there's more to life than low taxes?
But if you must move to Delaware to escape such brutally average rates of taxation, I personally like Rehoboth Beach. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 2365
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 11:36 pm: | |
Where I live and work in the metro area inner and middle ring suburbs, the population is stable, and enjoy living here (myself included).
Parts of DC are downright warzone like and I doubt residents and visitors to those areas are as content as you say. |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 990
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 12:05 am: | |
Dan in DC,
First, the infrastructure of the state of michigan has very little to do with my business, and I pay for the T-1 line that makes it possible.
Second, how dare you say I should be pleased to give up 30% of my after-federal tax income for NOTHING to subsidize a very undeserving group of people, namely the employees of the state of Michigan.
I don't want your pity, you sanctimonious jacksass. I'm simply stating that I refuse to continue to live in a sate where I am taxed to death without getting anything in return.
For your smart ass information, I have lived in DC, Chicago and California, Mr. been-around-the-world. I can't stand listening to you tell the poor benighted people of Michigan how to live. You think you know so god-damn much because you live in DC, with the other bloodsuckers living high off of the rest of us. You make me want to wretch, you cocky little shit.
Taxes in DC may be high, but the level of publicly-financed amenities and services is off the charts as compared to a place like Michigan.
(Message edited by ray on August 21, 2007) |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 991
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 12:06 am: | |
Enjoy your precious DC before the terrorist A-bomb it. What a sad day that will be. Hopefully you wont be at the shore.
(Message edited by ray on August 21, 2007) |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3061
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 2:00 am: | |
Glad to see you're being objective and completely rational, Ray. Emotions are never good when dealing with money, especially if you're a successful businessman.
Just be sure not to thank the State of Michigan for building the roads that allow you to get to work everyday. |
Gmich99
Member
Username: Gmich99
Post Number: 231
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 2:28 am: | |
So let me get this straight. Everyone who think we need tax cuts also agrees that we should cut spending for our police, fire departments, educational institutions, research centers, military, infrastructure (highways, electric, water, gas, etc), hospitals, etc. Or should we just continue record spending and sell the debt to China and the EU? Are we to have a government with no services, or one with services bought on credit? BTW Norway, Iceland, Sweden, and Denmark have no national debt. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3062
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 2:34 am: | |
Gmich, you just don't get it. Successful people don't use any of those services. They do just fine on their own. How dare you suggest they contribute to the health, welfare, and stability of our nation.
For shame. |
Gmich99
Member
Username: Gmich99
Post Number: 232
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 2:46 am: | |
Dan- Thanks so much for edjamakating me. Perhaps we should start charging successful children for their primary school educations. How dare society be expected to educate them at no cost to the child! |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3064
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 2:49 am: | |
^No, I've always advocated charging idiots for their educations, since they wasted so much time and energy expended in good faith. |
Gmich99
Member
Username: Gmich99
Post Number: 233
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 3:09 am: | |
Well all those children will need jobs to pay for that education. That will be a real boost to the economy. No taxes and no child labor laws = strong Michigan economy. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 282
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 8:54 am: | |
Ray,
Do you realize how far that $40k a year DOESN'T stretch. To give you one example. For MDOT to reconstruct a QUARTER MILE of 4 lane freeway (One lane mile), they have to pay a contractor over $1 million (in some areas, closer to $2 million). There are over 8,800 lane miles of freeway in this state alone. That is a cost of somewhere between $8.8 billion and $17.6 billion to reconstruct pavements that will only have a service life of 17-25 years.
This is just one aspect of what the government (both state and federal) has to maintain. Now, that $40k doesn't seem so large does it? |
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