 
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 1996
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:11 am: |    |
I think it makes perfect sense. Las Vegas was the faster growing city in the country, how many of those people were getting ARM's, or lying about their income, just like everywhere else? More people buying houses = more potential for losing houses. |
Ohudson
Member
Username: Ohudson
Post Number: 261
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:14 am: | |
So Professorscott just used his "666" post to imply that casinos and foreclosures may somehow be connected..... Hmmmm, interesting. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1356
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:16 am: | |
LY,
Lilpup is right, the wave of immigrants who flooded Detroit were living in very close quarters out of necessity. Dad would come over, told by his brothers that there were lots of jobs, he'd move in with them, then send for his wife and kids. Lots of people living together, until they'd get together enough money to buy a house.
People were much more frugal then, out of necessity. Fewer social safety nets, etc. When grandma got old, there was no Social Security, she'd come live with you. |
Spartacus
Member
Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 223
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:19 am: | |
Do you guys even skim the articles that are linked before you chime in?
More people buying houses is not relevant (if it were Nevada wouldn't be close to number one, it is a very small (albeit growing) state). Nevada has the number one RATE of foreclosures. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 1997
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:22 am: | |
Spartacus, yes it is relevant. Las Vegas was one of the fastest growing areas in the country. Combine that with the trends in the mortgage industry in recent years (giving out loans they shouldn't, applicants lying about income, ARM's with teaser rates) and you have a higher potential for disaster. MORE NEW HOME BUYERS during a period of LESS RESPONSIBLE LENDING = RELEVANT. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 9480
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:24 am: | |
Study after study shows:
Casinos open and the following increase around them:
Foreclosures
Divorce
Bankruptcy
Crime
Supposedly all this is negated by providing several hundred jobs, while they vacuum the pockets of their customers, often folks who can least afford it.
Best way ever invented to tax the poor while making 'em poorer, plucking more than a few outta the middle class and sending them down the dumper (or should I say, sending themselves down the dumper) all in the name of "entertainment"
Let's build a few more......? |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 2634
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:26 am: | |
quote:Obviously not so for those who emigrated from their homelands and resettled in the US
Many families emigrated as family units of two, three, or more generations. Those who didn't already have connections here had the tenements of Chicago and New York's lower east side - packed like sardines into shoddy living spaces where poverty and illness reigned supreme.
The immigrant experience has an ugly side that easily matches it's romanticized side. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 1998
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:27 am: | |
Gambling = Idiot Tax.
A tax I happily don't pay. |
Ohudson
Member
Username: Ohudson
Post Number: 262
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:31 am: | |
Also, once a new homebuyer buys a home that they cannot afford, it will usually take 2 to 3 years to go belly up anyway.... especially with ARMs.
A number of investment properties were bought in Nevada and Florida. Lots of investors had big dreams of big paydays from the incredible rise in home prices, now they are stuck with a home that costs more than it's worth and nobody will buy it even at the lower price. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3791
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:31 am: | |
All four of my grandparents emigrated from Europe as single, older teenagers (w/o families) and without their parents. That often happened among family members in Europe around 1900 who had dismal employment prospects there. They earned enough money (or got it from elsewhere) to pay their passage. The older adults were established there and didn't need to emigrate to NA or SA.
Most immigrants didn't bring their relatives over afterwards, but many relatives also emigrated due to the lousy European economy prior to WWI.
In any event, after living frugally for a short time, they established their own families, etc. They didn't continue to live with their parents until well into their thirties, as occurs frequently today.
(Message edited by Livernoisyard on August 22, 2007) |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 9901
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:36 am: | |
I'm not so sure casinos are liable for anything more than a small percentage of these foreclosures...Las Vegas' growth seems due more to it becoming a cool retirement investment spot, cheap for the scattered family to visit...who's gonna say NO to a free weekend at grandma's in a town where reports of bad behavior stay behind?!
Many of those homes aren't occupied year-round, unlike the other desert communities like Phoenix and Albuquerque...where those other places have high tech manufacturing and other stuff as their economic base.
Vegas has the ability to belly-up much quicker than those other towns, since entertainment is a more fickle market. |
Spartacus
Member
Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 224
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:43 am: | |
Ohudson. You must be wrong. As Johnlodge explained the reason for the increase in the foreclosure RATE in Nevada is because Las Vegas is the fastest growing city in the country. This is much more likely then the fact there was a greater percentage of investors (speculators) to homeowners in Nevada.
It also apparently has something to do with the fact that "We are spending about 5 times more for things then our grand parents were, yet our wages are maybe 1.5 times greater then what they earned. Adjusted for inflation of course" Does that clear things up? |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2001
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:51 am: | |
Spartacus, I am providing one possible reason for the trends in the area. I am not denying others. You are insisting that it can have nothing whatsoever to do with the situation.
It has been agreed upon that lending practices over the last five years are partially to blame for the situation. If Las Vegas had more people buying houses during that time frame than any other city, why would you dispute that it could be a factor? Why bring out such an arrogant tone? |
Ohudson
Member
Username: Ohudson
Post Number: 263
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:55 am: | |
There is no 1 particular reason why so many homes are in foreclosure, there are several. And a number of the reasons already mentioned on this thread are all valid and true.
Such as in Detroit, there is a culture of people buying homes and collecting rent until the lender gets fed up with no mortgage being paid or the city realizes that no taxes have been paid. A lot of fraudulent activity going on in the city.
My brother rented a house in the city and he recently had to move because the house went into foreclosure even though he paid his rent as he was supposed to. This house was turned over twice to different owners before going into foreclosure. |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 151
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 12:43 pm: | |
BA-
I was trying to make a point using NUMBERS that I am familiar with. That figure is from the people that have LEFT FORD ONLY, as I did in February.! How about GM and Chrysler? I would bet the number of people NOT employed now to be DOUBLE that. My point was, and is, that we aren't paying attention to the TOTALITY of what has occurred, here as almost a quarter million people have been let go, and I bet, although I don't have any hard figures, that THAT is the reason for the vast amount of foreclosures. I fear that the number is true, and this will get even worse. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 152
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 12:52 pm: | |
Ply...I understand.
Even without the hard figures, I believe that you are right about the foreclosures. Some people simply have tunnel vision when it comes to the American economy and try to put the blame elsewhere. The auto industry and its' decline has a direct affect on every individual in the U.S., and especially Michigan, whether some wish to believe it or not. |
Ray1936
Member
Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1836
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 1:06 pm: | |
According to local media, a substantial number of the Las Vegas foreclosures were due to investors (probably amateur) from California, where housing is astronomical in price, buying up what seemed to be bargain priced-homes (running 1/2 the prices of similar Orange/LA county homes). Timing was bad, and when a surplus of homes for sale developed, turned out they were upside down on their homes, having fallen for the "no-money-down" mortgage hucksters.
I sold my home in Clark county (outside the Vegas city limits) in June, 2006, for a bundle. My timing was perfect. Two months later I'd of been lucky to get 85% of what I got. The quick drop in median home prices was startling.
By the way, I think the numbers of people who lost their homes to foreclosure due to a gambling problem is overstated. There are a few such instances, I'm sure, but it's not responsible for the downturn.
(Yes, I give the joints some action. But then, I don't have a mortgage, either.) |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1489
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 3:08 pm: | |
One plus is I've not heard a Rock Financial Commercial in awhile. I wonder what's going on with D. Hall? Does he pull the ads only when all this negative publicity is swirling around? |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1358
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 3:28 pm: | |
It's time to liiiiiiive, YEAH! |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1490
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 3:29 pm: | |
Time to hand your keys to the bank. |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 142
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 3:37 pm: | |
LOL ^^^^ Cambrian ^^^^
What a frickin' debacle!
thanks everyone for giving good insight into the housing market in and outside of the metropolitan area. Although thick and pulsating, I was able to derive some very good education out of the squibble-squabble and questionable opinions mentioned above. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 669
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 4:06 pm: | |
"Pulsating"? TMI. |
Lmr
Member
Username: Lmr
Post Number: 96
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 4:51 pm: | |
It used to be a disgrace if someone had a personal bankruptcy. People would actually feel ashamed. Now, bankruptcy, foreclosure, repossessions don't seem to bother anybody. I know people who just matter of factly say that they let something "go back to the bank" just as if they had told you the time of day. There's really no shame in anything anymore. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1493
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 4:54 pm: | |
It will be interesting to see if future lending standards will be relaxed due to the shear amount of people with foreclosures on thier report. |
Belleislerunner
Member
Username: Belleislerunner
Post Number: 341
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 5:33 pm: | |
People make money managing risk. If someone has a foreclosure/declared bankruptcy, it signifies a higher risk individual, for which the lender will demand a higher premium. Empathy has no place in finance. We're emotionless =)
I think Michigan is close to bottoming out. As average prices are around 150 - that equates to the 3 times average salary of Mich residents (healthy for home owner for 30 yr loan)
States like California and Florida have a long way to fall. And fall they will. Average incomes of 60K in California cannot from a mathematical position support an average house of 500K. So consider ourselves ahead of the game. Folks in 2-3 yrs on the coasts will be wishing their landing was as soft. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6382
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 8:04 pm: | |
Oh Well that's the power of UNREAL ESTATE.
Buying a better home for a future family is major investment. If have a good salary based job, good credit score points and figuring out property loopholes, getting a good home a just footsteps away. but watch out!!! IF YOU LOSE YOUR JOB, SOONER OR LATER YOU WILL LOSE YOUR HOME and that's the way it is.
Michigan is now number 2 in housing foreclosures in the United States. Most of the homeowners come from the automotive companies who have been laid off permanently causing them to cut cost and wants, finding other alternative jobs in which some of them have no experience. since most of our Michigan families can't find alternative jobs they have no other choice but to sell their homes to pay off the mortage companies and other debts. 2007 is worst year for home foreclosures for Michigan families. They should have watch the warning signs before they could come up with a plan B. Now the trail of foreclosures has impacted stocks in the Dow Jones causing the FEDS to shut off the interest rates to prevent a crash.
So to all your young folks in Michigan who want to buy a home anywhere, go a good longer lasting job, maintain your credit score, go through the banking and mortage and yearly property tax loopholes and watch ot changes in our American society. OR YOU COULD LOSE YOUR DREAM HOME IN A FLASH. |
Ray1936
Member
Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1841
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 9:31 pm: | |
I'm glad I'm not a member of the spelling and grammar police. |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 152
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 10:28 pm: | |
Amen, Ray! The worst part is if you fill in the blanks, he actually makes a bit of sense. I have certainly read worse!Congrats on getting out ahead of the curve. That point is always hard to judge and many often miss their opportunity!
BelleIsleRunner and Lmr both raise interesting points in both the shame department(or shamelessness!)and the apparent dis-regard for the higher rate they incur to borrow money due to their sub-par credit scores.
Camb-
If they "soften" lending standards don't you think that there will be some offset somewhere!
How is that anywhere fair to all of those who have been denied? Do they have a cut-off for qualification? I fear that the questions and ramifications in the future will be catastrophic!! |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 143
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:21 pm: | |
"It used to be a disgrace if someone had a personal bankruptcy. People would actually feel ashamed. Now, bankruptcy, foreclosure, repossessions don't seem to bother anybody. I know people who just matter of factly say that they let something "go back to the bank" just as if they had told you the time of day. There's really no shame in anything anymore."
I had a friend who filed for personal bankruptcy just before the laws became more difficult for individuals to file. I asked him one day where he was at with all of that, and he told me he was waiting for a letter in the mail.
I teased him for weeks with what the contents of that letter would say when he opened it:
"CONGRATULATIONS!!! You have been approved for BANKRUPTCY!!!"
This guy wiped out at least $17,000 worth of debt. What a clown. |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2361
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 12:03 am: | |
Tk, I don't follow. If the guy got rid of having to pay $17,000 in debt, why is he a clown? Or are you saying he was a clown for filing bankruptcy or getting into debt? |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1359
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 12:06 am: | |
I think what Tk is saying -- the guy bought stuff, enjoyed it and then walked away from having to pay for it. But what about the people who rendered him the services worth $17,000? They have mouths to feed as well ... |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 145
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 10:15 am: | |
Well, first of all...... this guy is naturally a clown in every sense of the word. Everybody knows people like this who act without considering any consequences.
But I was actually leaning towards the fact he did rack up 17K in CC debt at bars, tuition and anything else he needed. It may have taken him 2-4 years to do, being that he held a steady job during this time, but in the end he did not want to face the music and pay for his posh lifestyle. He was granted bankruptcy and we all celebrated.
It has become customary over the last 15-25 years for people to desire and get the things they can not afford. Our capitalist markets have turned these desires into realities through fair competition and freedoms of business. Now the businesses and the population are paying the price because companies lend to people who in no way should be lended to.
Pffft - Yes the people who rendered my friend and people like him services do have mouths to feed. But I could care less for the CC companies who jack you for a $25-35 slap in the face every time you miss your payment by a day. The CC's providers are as vicious as the people who use their services without any intent to pay. I feel no remorse for companies who prey upon weak minded people. Once someone actually files bankruptcy, they can never again do so. So that is when the CC companies start circling like vultures. Consumers can not wiggle out of debt twice and the CC's know this. Frickin' vultures!!
Side Note - how much paper are the CC companies going to waste sending me "PRE_APPROVED" cc letters with outrageous interest rates I would never pay. It's one thing to solicit, but they would get more responses if they sent Dog-Poop in an envelope instead of these awful deals. And quit wasting paper!!
I know somehow all of this is translatable into the mortgage/housing market also. It is a national virus. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1496
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 11:07 am: | |
Our economy would cease to exist if we all followed Suze Ormond's advice and only bought what we could pay cash for. This system has it's benefits, and as we are seeing now, it's draw backs. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1360
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 11:10 am: | |
There's a middle ground, as always.
Go into debt moderately for important purchases like a house, but don't bite off more than you can chew. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2036
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 11:12 am: | |
"if we all followed Suze Ormond's advice and only bought what we could pay cash for"
Besides the fact that it's nearly impossible, unless you want to never own a house or a new car. Unless of course, you have a few hundred grand cash sitting around ready to spend all at once. Everything else, on the other hand, I pay cash for. |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 148
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 12:22 pm: | |
Well..... houses are one thing, and you all are right. Then again, 30-yr fixed mortgages have been around since tootsie pops so that is nothing new.
Now a janitor going into Gregory's marina and walking out with a new 40-ft Sea Ray with all the trimmings - no money down ........ is still unfortunately possible. |
Llyn
Member
Username: Llyn
Post Number: 1856
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 1:14 pm: | |
quote:Yes the people who rendered my friend and people like him services do have mouths to feed. But I could care less for the CC companies who jack you for a $25-35 slap in the face every time you miss your payment by a day."
So, anytime I don't care for someone I shouldn't feel bad for cheating them out of money?
If you don't want a service charge don't pay late. Aren't you getting tired of people's excuses for not paying their bills? Yes, there are some people who got in financial trouble due to circumstances, and I have no great love for corporate America, but I have no tolerance for people who won't manage their finances and then have no shame in welching on their debts.
And don't think the rest of us don't pay for that in some form or another. |
Llyn
Member
Username: Llyn
Post Number: 1857
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 1:19 pm: | |
quote:"if we all followed Suze Ormond's advice and only bought what we could pay cash for"
Besides the fact that it's nearly impossible, unless you want to never own a house or a new car. Unless of course, you have a few hundred grand cash sitting around ready to spend all at once. Everything else, on the other hand, I pay cash for.
Ummm... I know people who have done it (not me), and own cars and houses and all of that without large salaries. Just your standard blue collar people.
And our economy wouldn't collapse. Well maybe it would NOW, but if done from the start the economy would just be different. Maybe better. |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 149
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 3:20 pm: | |
"So, anytime I don't care for someone I shouldn't feel bad for cheating them out of money?"
Yeah..... the CC companies are real stand up guys. The minute you turn you head, they are soliciting your 18 year old son or daughter for a 21.99% card. Guess who's gonna end up paying that off smarty?
Wait till they get the pin # for cash advances.
It's one thing to go out and get a CC, but another to receive waves of undesired letters saying "pre-approved" or "Cash Back*".
"If you don't want a service charge don't pay late. Aren't you getting tired of people's excuses for not paying their bills? Yes, there are some people who got in financial trouble due to circumstances, and I have no great love for corporate America, but I have no tolerance for people who won't manage their finances and then have no shame in welching on their debts."
These people shouldn't have bills because they shouldn't have CC's. It is called screening. Unfortunately, the CC business rewards salespeople for the amount of cards they get into peoples' hands. Not the amount of interest they actually collect.
I would be fine with a $5 or $10 late fee, but some of them are just way too high. |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2363
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 12:51 am: | |
Try $39. |
Jerome81
Member
Username: Jerome81
Post Number: 1609
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 1:25 am: | |
Paying your CC bill on time is not hard at all. Not carrying a balance is also not hard if you don't buy more than you can afford.
BTW, I'm not so sure CA is gonna tumble. Someone mentioned 60K salaries and 500K+ houses....this has been like this (or worse) since at least 2000 or so. I remember in college in silicon valley the median home price in Santa Clara county was about $525,000. Now it is something like 700 or 800k.
That's just the way it is out there. 700-800 is absolutely insane, 500k is still insane. But it has been that way for at least 10 years now. Unless something else in the economy tanks, I don't see that changing, at least not in the bay area.
Part of the reason I left actually. I want my own home someday. Wasn't ever gonna happen out there. |
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