 
Queensfinest
Member
Username: Queensfinest
Post Number: 129
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 4:10 am: |    |
Some of you might recognize me from prior posts. I check the sight every once in a while due to the fact that I am a student and professor of urban issues, urban planning, policy, design, and architecture, amongst other trivial subjects, in cities all over the U.S. and around the globe.
I actually work for the Department of City Planning here in New York City and I teach courses on the side at a very, let's say, well known institution of higher learning here in NYC.
Some of my prior posts have of course elicited responses that I wasn't exactly searching for, but nonetheless perhaps should have expected, as I am not the type of person whose opinions usually pass without significant rebuttal.
I'm starting this thread because I've noticed a certain poster, who may or may not be in Washington D.C., who nevertheless seems very informed and well-educated, yet on the other hand seems to have a very specific agenda against the residents of Metro Detroit, Michigan, and the Midwest (generally I feel the Detroit area does have and should have more in common with the Great Lakes Mega-region, so let's please lose the Midwest identity in the name of progress...)and in any case seems to obtain some sort of satisfaction during the process of degrading the area that this site takes its name from.
The reason that I mention this is because I have observed a pattern of resentment towards ones place of origin, that i believe to be evident in this particular poster's behavior, attitude and comments, that represents an attitude of shame or embarrassment possibly due to one's upbringing usually once they have moved on to a more cosmopolitan locale.
I have observed this behavior in ex-Detroiters, and ex-Texans, and ex-Ohions here in New York, who all wish to somehow fit in to their adopted surroundings. It is simply an interesting phenomenon in my opinion and I wish to learn more regarding this pattern of behavior.
As I've stated before, I am a native New Yorker, I am not of the opinion that this fact makes me somehow better than people who live 100 miles or more from the coast, I lived in Detroit during the early 90's, and I simply wish to determine whether there are many people on this site or otherwise who harbor complexes or attitudes against the City of Detroit or Michigan, due to the fact that they feel inferior that they have grown up in Michigan.
I don't feel that this behavior is warranted. I have just observed it in many people I have contact with and in several people on this forum. Any help in my research will be appreciated. Regards. _M_ |
Jjw
Member
Username: Jjw
Post Number: 437
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 6:13 am: | |
Ex-Detroiter here. Grew up on Oakman near Joy. Went to school in Detroit and graduated from Wayne State. Took a job in Milwaukee first and then a promotion to Baltimore. Been here awhile. I wear my Detroit t's with pride and always speak highly of Detroit. But, glad I moved. I am not a car guy (don't own one) and Detroit was very difficult to get around. I don't harbor negative feelings for D other than the transportation issues. Oh, not to keen on the whole Belle Isle issues either (paving and car race). Sometimes I think Detroiters beat themselves up to much. Problems that occur in Detroit occur everywhere else also. Some may be more frequent in Detroit but believe me, all urban areas have frustrations. I still feel connected to Detroit because I get back very frequently for my job and family issues.
I think I know who you are referring to (may be wrong) but if it is the same person, I do respect many of his opinions. Often I feel he is correct. Just my opinion though. |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 305
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 7:52 am: | |
"...feel inferior that they have grown up in Michigan"
You have an interesting hypothesis, but only for a sophomore essay. Have you considered the possibility of biased samples? Non-traditional avenues for expression are more likely to be utilized by those who consider themselves to be outsiders? "Students" of popular culture were mulling this over, -what?- 35 years ago as explanations for everything from black urban rebellion to the rise of Tupperware parties.
If the truth be told, I feel a sense of midwestern SUPERIORITY every time that I leave NYC (been there plenty); I question how so many people could be duped into believing a dense, dirty, and concrete environment is high living.
Maybe you can help me with one of my own research projects: why is it often the case that part-time adjuncts refer to themselves as "professor" when the tenured and tenure-track people will not even give them the time of day? Do you suspect that a vein of self-aggrandizement runs through your "community?" |
Ffdfd
Member
Username: Ffdfd
Post Number: 161
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 9:04 am: | |
So what exactly does the thread title have to do with your initial post, Queen? From the title it would seem you are looking for someone to write "I live in New Jersey now but I grew up in Allen Park." But from your pretentious opener it would seem you're looking for some amalgam of self-loathing and sociological pontification. Does one's Detroit neighborhood or suburb somehow fit in to your hypothesis? If so, you never mention how. Frankly, I think Craig is being too kind when he rates your hypothesis as sophomore-level.
And don't be coy, Queen, what is this "well known institution of higher learning here in NYC"? Is it Columbia? Why not either mention the school or just say you teach college classes on the side? You come off as only slightly less pompous than the guy who inspired you to start the thread. By the way, I'm pretty sure that guy did not grow up in Michigan so you can nix him from the research. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2142
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 9:12 am: | |
You'd be better off posing the question "Why do people around the world discuss and express an interest in Detroit, more than they do many larger and more thriving American cities? And why hasn't that interest turned into dollars for the city?" There's many reasons. In Europe, the Techno scene brought Detroit to the forefront of many young people's minds. For some, it is roots here, perhaps their families moved here first when coming from overseas. Maybe it's the auto industry for others. That's better than basing your essay on "Why is ________ a jackass." |
East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 1182
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 9:17 am: | |
People who no longer live in Detroit are used as the sample of how people from Detroit feel about Detroit?
Ridiculous. Biased sample. |
Southofeight
Member
Username: Southofeight
Post Number: 105
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 9:28 am: | |
I quote Peter Griffith when I say, "Mets suck. Yankees suck. Jets suck." |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 219
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 9:33 am: | |
I don't think we're being insulted, so back off. Her comments were directed at a certain someone who now lives in our nation's capital. Besides, if she's truly from/in Queens, well, she has her own cross to bear with Manhattanites.
Queen, I grew up in Detroit and have lived in Chicago and Philly. I was surprised at the similar inferiority complex shared between natives of Philly and Detroit. Whereas you can see some Detroiters carry a chip on their shoulders and go on defensive attacks; Philly natives would often ask why I wanted to move there. They feel the underdog to NYC and DC.
Obviously this is just an observation...I feel at least three of the cities are insular: ironically, NYC is because of the pervasive attitude it is the center of the universe- that becomes insular because too many of its resident's personas/egos are tied to that image; it's like nothing exists beyond their microcosm. Detroit and Philly are insular in the sense that they share small town mentalities wrapped up in a big package- both are largish cities but many natives stay or return to be near family. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3154
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 9:34 am: | |
I don't know if I should be flattered or not. It seems I've managed to provoke some thought, which isn't necessarily bad. I think to claim I have a specific agenda against Detroit and the Midwest is giving me more credit than I'm due--as if I could single handedly bring down the Rust Belt with my words on this forum.
I've been on this board for the better part of ten years now, beginning when I was an undergraduate at U of M. While I don't get paid to teach classes on the side, I consider myself an amateur student of the urban environment, and there's no better laboratory than Detroit. It's reasonable to infer that someone who loathes Detroit wouldn't bother wasting so much time on this site.
I think Queensfinest assessment couldn't be further from the truth. I'm a big fan of the Rust Belt cities. I think they can do better for themselves. Many people, even the educated and englighted on this forum, however, seem content to settle with the status quo. I know this isn't everyone, but there is a significant number.
I would turn your claim on its head. I think there's a lot of stubborn blue collar pride and defensiveness that gets directed toward me. I don't take it personally, but it is disturbing. How is a city supposed to change if its people are constantly isolating themselves from thoughts and ideas that originate elsewhere?
Maybe it's the geography. Maybe it's that Michiganders are not so apt to travel. Maybe it's low civic self-esteem. I don't know. Whatever the reason, I have a right--perhaps even a responsibility--to be on this forum to converse and learn, and share my observations from a place that has already done a lot of the things Detroit seeks to accomplish. Quite honestly, I'm the least of the problems facing Detroit. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2146
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 9:38 am: | |
I think if you go to any message board dedicated to a particular city, where the grand majority of posters there are people with an immense interest, and most likely are residents of said city, and start telling them what's wrong with them from hundreds of miles away, and they should do this and do that and if they get upset (which they will) tell them they are defensive and isolationists, you will probably have the same experience as you have here. If you were to go to the Freep message boards, and post the same things, people would probably react differently. Again, this forum is a poor place for any sort of study of an area. It could not be more biased, and of course the people here will be defensive when an outsider rags on the very city it is dedicated to. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2147
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 9:40 am: | |
^ Let's hold an experiment. Somebody find a forum dedicated to another city, and point out their flaws and what they could do better. Call yourself GuyFromDetroit. Take screen shots of the results and post here and we will discuss. |
Atl_runner
Member
Username: Atl_runner
Post Number: 1971
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 9:51 am: | |
Former Detroiter here, proud of it, always have been. It's a special city. You can seriously tell who the Detroiter's are when you meet them. I know not one former Detroiter who is not proud of where they come from. The issues most of us have, is that we see how well things are done in other cities around the country, and the world, and wonder why the consistently incompetent leadership of Detroit continues to have a mandate for the status quo, and as we all know, the status quo in Detroit is less than stellar. Good things are happening for sure, but it's more than that. It's unchecked sprawl, a population who is afraid to move beck into the city, infrastructure issues, and the ever noticable lack of transit of any kind other than personal automobiles.
I'll be back there tomorrow, first time since June of 06.. I can't wait. Seriously. I miss the place. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 220
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 9:57 am: | |
Ummm...could someone quote what exactly is so insulting? If we are indeed being insulted, I think it makes us look even more ignorant to call her out with no specific references. And to attack sport teams? That's sophomoric. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1508
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 10:14 am: | |
I think if you go to any message board dedicated to a particular city, where the grand majority of posters there are people with an immense interest, and most likely are residents of said city, and start telling them what's wrong with them from hundreds of miles away, and they should do this and do that and if they get upset (which they will) tell them they are defensive and isolationists, you will probably have the same experience as you have here. If you were to go to the Freep message boards, and post the same things, people would probably react differently. Again, this forum is a poor place for any sort of study of an area. It could not be more biased, and of course the people here will be defensive when an outsider rags on the very city it is dedicated to.
Hmm. I dunno John... I think Dan gets bashed a lot moreso because his opinions go against the grain of the status quo, rather than because of him being perceived as an elitist outsider.
If the case were like you stated it, then similar sentiments should be held towards the plethora of suburbanites on this forum who criticize the city for this and that, all while most have never lived in the city at all.
ETA: Furthermore, a lot of his cracks are at the policies of the metropolis, and not always directed towards the city.
(Message edited by iheartthed on August 31, 2007) |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2150
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 10:16 am: | |
Are you saying surburbanites are never attacked for criticizing the city for this and that? Really? Go check out any time Thejesus has said anything negative about the city, and read the responses. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1509
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 10:20 am: | |
Are you saying surburbanites are never attacked for criticizing the city for this and that? Really? Go check out any time Thejesus has said anything negative about the city, and read the responses.
No, I'm not saying that. But Dan gets criticized for his criticisms about metro policy than TJ does for his criticisms of the city... and a lot of the people who criticize Dan the most happen to be suburbanites. |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 311
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 10:23 am: | |
OG - the implication that posters from anywhere off of the coasts have latent longings to journey to the only place that matters is the insult. The premise that occupants of fly-over country are so cute because they're able to sense their regions' irrelevance is insulting.
Additional insult is the declared scientific interest in the bickering of we primitives in the hinterland.
BTW - among academic types it is among the peaks of narcissism to claim "professorial" status when one is caging dimes for teaching as an adjunct in the evenings. A legitimate academic interest would be played out under controlled conditions (reference above comments re: bias) or with a different voice from the one used above. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2153
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 10:26 am: | |
^ Oh I gotcha. Dan's ideas tend to be pretty progressive, and I do agree with many of them. Michigan is a blue state, and Detroit itself very blue, and I'd say as a whole this board is pretty left, yet what he has to say often is met with hostility. I suppose the suburbs are more to the right, as a whole. I still don't think the region's defensiveness is entirely to blame, though. Americans are always proud of their hometown.
Don't mess with Texas! |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 13
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 10:39 am: | |
Growing up in Michigan (not specifically Detroit) I "thought" that our state was inferior based on a number of factors. Why?
Our industries and factories closed. Workers were laid off continuously in varying degrees for over 30 years now. Our state and local governments don't seem to be able to stem the tide of "bad news" coming out of the state. Frankly, anything and everything we heard for 30 years was bad news. I think that partially accounts for the perception of "inferiority" you perceive in former Michiganders. Keep in mind though, those are the people that gave up on the state.
I went to college and obtained several degrees. I traveled across the nation and overseas and have lived in London and in the South. Contrary to what DaninDC thinks, most of my fellow Michiganders that I know and associate with are well-traveled and well-educated. Few of us lack a college degree and most have graduate degrees of one type or another.
The stereotype of Michigan and Detroit being full of blue-collar beer-guzzlers is not true. Is it a significant population? Yes. But the stereotype is the same as saying Charleston is full of good ol' boy Southerners with slow drawls.
I don't feel inferior to New Yorkers or folks from Chicago. Dallas had it's fractured city council and New York for decades was mired in its own issues. DC had Marion Barry. We're not alone in having bad politicians or bad government. I do know that Michigan and Detroit have challenges that no other city has due to its social and economic history.
I also know that answers that worked in other cities won't work here because we don't have the same issues facing us that other cities do or on the same scale that they faced.
I stopped believing that we were somehow inferior to other regions of the country. If you can make it in Michigan, you can make it anywhere. I think our ex-pats prove that.
On a side note, here's a question? Why is it that companies relocating to the South or the coasts try to recruit out of the Great Lakes/Michigan area? It might have something to do with the fact we put in the most working hours per person based on geographical region. |
Jjw
Member
Username: Jjw
Post Number: 438
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 10:49 am: | |
Believe me---they recruit from everywhere! And.... unfortunately for many people from the states, they recruit from other nations. |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 14
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 10:56 am: | |
Jjw,
Actually, I'm referring to a number of high-level corporate folks who've told me in the past that they prefer candidates from the Great Lakes area. (Chicago and Detroit) |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 222
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 11:02 am: | |
Craig,
I understand the implicit "insult" of her premise, but I don't necessarily agree. Frankly, no matter what anyone thinks of her post; it's far more intellectually stimulating than my nostalgia posts or the 100+ responses garnered from someone's girlfriend being afraid of the big, bad city. IF this is a veiled insult, we only play into it by retorting with ugly, emotionally driven insults at New Yorkers; shouldn't we be making cogent points to discuss?
I too, have disdain for the NY as center of the world attitude of many who live there, but we should recognize that we are indeed anymore a fly-over and our DC poster contributes worthwhile ideas from an urban planning perspective regardless of what Queen is truly saying. We should focus on changing our fly-over status and consider some of those DC posts as a means to make us a place where people permanently want to land the plane. |
Jjw
Member
Username: Jjw
Post Number: 439
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 11:19 am: | |
Umcs-Okay. I understand. I am what some people refer to as a "Headhunter" and would love to find qualified folks in the Detroit area as possible candidates. But, I know this forum is not the appropriate place for that. I do recruit wherever I find a candidate that fits a client. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2159
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 11:22 am: | |
Lowell encourages people connecting with jobs in the classifieds section.
"Any member with a minimum of 25 posts seeking or offering employment may make a free listing. These listings may run for three calendar months. In the case of members seeking employment, extensions may be granted upon request by posting a followup post." |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 223
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 11:25 am: | |
"Why is it that companies relocating to the South or the coasts try to recruit out of the Great Lakes/Michigan area?"
It may have to do with the fact we have no jobs. Oh, and why do you think Floridian natives came up with the term "Snowbird"?
"...most of my fellow Michiganders that I know and associate with are well-traveled and well-educated. Few of us lack a college degree and most have graduate degrees of one type or another. "
That's because those in your social and work sphere have the same level of ed. as you. Statistically, only 27% of Michiganians over the age of 25 have at least a Bachelor's degree. (2006 Census stats) |
Daf
Member
Username: Daf
Post Number: 16
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 11:27 am: | |
Metro Detroiter since age 14, but lived in DC area for 6 years (in my mid-30's), then returned.
I was always proud of my Detroit roots and sure didn't hide it when I was in DC. As a musician, actually helped buy some cred. Not so much as an IT guy, but still wore my mitten high... |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1512
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 11:30 am: | |
I was always proud of my Detroit roots and sure didn't hide it when I was in DC. As a musician, actually helped buy some cred. Not so much as an IT guy, but still wore my mitten high...
Yeah, Detroit roots are pretty respected in some music circles... |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 315
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 11:39 am: | |
Ugly? Moi? We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, OG.
I'm happy to hear, discuss, sling crap (I've piled on plenty) but I cannot agree with "research" of which the premise is, essentially: isn't the reason that you're crazy is that you're crazy, or worse "you asked to be raped."
The original question is not necessarily invalid (why no: I am not crazy) but the approach is tactless.
A true story and parallel from a local source: WSU fielded a study re: race-based attitudes in the metro area. The out-of-town academic who lead the study drafted a questionnaire (to be administered face-to-face) with questions like: "do you agree that Detroit has trouble is because blacks commit so many crimes?" Intellectually, that question was valid -unlikely, but in the final analysis it's possible that Detroit's problems are the sole fault of black crime- but the approach was an invitation for disruption, both intellectual and social (i.e. someone was likely to get their ass kicked). Ultimately, the WSU survey was edited.
Had Queen edited her (?) question to post as, simply, "are forum posters more inclined to moan or are they the voice of the community" I would have been on board. I guess that I'm saying that an ill-worded post is as bad as an ill-conceived survey: an invitation for a punch in the nose. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 343
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 11:48 am: | |
Some of the people who left here and then hang out on this forum, miss it and are trying to convince themselves they don't. By continually pointing out our problems. They aren't trying to insult, they're saying it for their own benefit.
I've left Detroit and lived in other locales. They weren't Detroit and they were never home. This city has a lot of features that we take for granted. And many do not realize what a truly great place this is until they're living somewhere else. Most of these boom cities have the Taylor-feel. Poorly planned, hastily assembled, no history worth studying or even discussing, few people there are from there. It really gets monotonous, and peering beyond the new structures and facades, the new resident quickly finds its all transparent and just another place to work and not a very good place to live.
Recalling when so many Detroiters left in the late 70's for Houston, I think the majority of them eventually returned. We're Detroiters, we're different than people in other cities and thats not a bad thing. But we belong here.
There is an old saying "Theres no place like home" and that is very true. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1036
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 11:53 am: | |
LOL- Well Queens you have your answer. Some folks do and some don't, the tenor of individual responses shows if there is a complex or not. In my opinion, Detroit is a great place and so is Michigan. No reason at all to be ashamed of being from there. This idea of regional inferiority complex is nothing new, and has been talked for years. Yes, New York is usually a hated target of people who suffer from said complex, but that is because NY is larger than life.
But let me be clear, NY is not larger than life because of the natives and the subarbanites. NY is larger than life because of the people who flock there from places like Michigan, Kansas, Iowa, Ohio, Maine, Wisconsin, Idaho, Canada, England, France, Italy, Etc.
The locals born and raised in Jersey, on Long Island, the outer boros, Westchester, suffer from the very same inferiority complex. They are the people that make NY unbearable to the rest of the country. Because in an effort to compensate for this sense of inferiority they often cloak themselves in the reflected glory of what is best about their near by city, while having little to offer themselves. This makes them appear to be loud mouthed, boorish, and rude. And in fact they are.
Detroiter, Chicagoans, and others on the other hand, respond by developing their own styles and cultures. These cultures are what keep these cities so great. The problem is, once the art and styles and music in these places begins to reach a broader audience NY and LA tend to take them over.
Sorry for the rambling. I love Detroit, it is a great American city. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 224
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 12:09 pm: | |
"The problem is, once the art and styles and music in these places begins to reach a broader audience NY and LA tend to take them over."
Good point; mainly when it comes to music- as far as NY and LA adapting our style, hmmm...don't agree. I will agree that a lot of our music has been co-opted; makes me think of how much fuss was generated over The Strokes just as The White Stripes were leaving their mark everywhere.
Craig, didn't mean to insult you. Actually,
"It is simply an interesting phenomenon in my opinion and I wish to learn more regarding this pattern of behavior."
...I also find it interesting. She didn't say that she was here to collect statistically significant data, and if she's looking for anecdotal or empirical evidence of an inferiority complex, we're providing plenty. |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 316
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 12:19 pm: | |
OG - I understand where you're coming from (I also assumed that your comment was not a dig - just trying to be funny with my response). |
Ray1936
Member
Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 1862
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 12:28 pm: | |
"and I simply wish to determine whether there are many people on this site or otherwise who harbor complexes or attitudes against the City of Detroit or Michigan, due to the fact that they feel inferior that they have grown up in Michigan."
Not me, Queen. Retired to Las Vegas when I retired in '84, and I've always been VERY proud to tell people I was from Michigan, and, specifically, Detroit. If anything, I feel somewhat superior to folks who are natives of, say, Ohio or Nebraska; states of magnificent boredom. |
Jjw
Member
Username: Jjw
Post Number: 440
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 12:34 pm: | |
Why the bashing of NYC? ONE person from Queens makes some statements and all of a sudden it is an, "I Hate New York Bloodfest". hehehe
I think Detroiters can get their point across without having to criticize somewhere else. For the record, I think people are pretty much the same all over! |
Hauntedbeat
Member
Username: Hauntedbeat
Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 12:49 pm: | |
Craig, again, I love you. And I love Detroit and its suburbs. I lived on the west coast in another city for ten years and I never got over wishing I were back here. Now that I am, I can really appreciate how great Detroit and the people here are, and I have never once regretted leaving LA. Also, to Queens: It's "site." |
Accraghana
Member
Username: Accraghana
Post Number: 72
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 1:08 pm: | |
I think that most people simply follow trends. For example, if another person asks me “are you going with” or says “It is what it is” I am going to shot them. These are just a few simple examples of human nature and or our culture propensity to “go with the flow” or monkey see monkey do.
The “flow” of metro Detroit is Detroit bashing and to see Detroit in a negative light and to talk about it in a negative light. That’s what the trend is and has been for the last 40 years….which helps to create a self-fulfilling prophecy. I remember going to school in Atlanta for a couple of years before moving back and getting my degree from Wayne State. What I found about Atlanta is that it had many of the same problems that Detroit had with poverty and crime, yet, the trend in Atlanta was to always “talk up” Atlanta as the place to be. Despite crime and poverty that back then placed Atlanta in the top 5 offenders with Detroit and others, the culture of the Atlanta area is to talk favorable about the region. Guess what……it too became a self-fulfilling prophecy for that area.
Regardless of the entity, whether it is an individual, City or corporation, it will always achieve more with a positive attitude about itself than with a negative attitude about itself. Detroit needs a cultural paradigm shift to where the people start talking about the region positively and it will spread as a trend and become self-fulfilling. Atlanta did it from embellishing positives that were true and playing down or ignoring those things were bad. The media in Detroit looks for blood and bad news to report because Detroiters eat that type of stuff up because reinforces peoples beliefs…..and we all know how humans like to feel “right” and hence have their beliefs reinforced. "I TOLD you this place sucks....look GM is laying off more people". "I TOLD you this place sucks....Look...3 people were shot and killed today". "I TOLD you this place sucks....did you hear the latest news?" I Told you....I told you....I told you....See....I'm Right and I like being right because it shows that I am smart.....LOL....I'm no dummy....LOL
(Message edited by accraghana on August 31, 2007) |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 1283
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 1:13 pm: | |
I didn't grow up in Detroit, but lived in the Metro area for 4 years (St. Clair--not Shores--and eventually Ferndale) and fell in love with the city. Unfortunately, it wasn't getting its act together fast enough for me. Like it or not, for some of us, the policies and ideas of both those with the power and those without are either backwards, selfish, misguided, or all 3 simultaneously.
So I left and now live in Chicago, where the politics are some of the most selfish and corrupt on the planet, all the way up to state government. Go figure. But I like it here--if for no other reason than I don't need a car, and I get paid around 200% more to do what I did in Detroit. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 624
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 1:22 pm: | |
I proudly tell others that I grew up in Detroit. Granted, it does not always come up, and I don't wear it on my sleeve. I've moved on and I'm happy, but I'll not forget the great memories of my days in the motor. |
Jimaz
Member
Username: Jimaz
Post Number: 3101
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 1:31 pm: | |
Queensfinest, I can only guess that what you've described in your post number 129 comes from a desire to feel justified in one's decision to abandon roots. Some people may harbor a bit of guilt or remorse after leaving home and so diminishing their opinion of home may help them cope with that.quote:... determine whether there are many people on this site or otherwise who harbor complexes or attitudes against the City of Detroit or Michigan, due to the fact that they feel inferior that they have grown up in Michigan. That caught me off guard. I've never considered that that might be a reason to feel inferior. I suppose it's possible.
In my case I just feel lucky to live in Michigan.  |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5254
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 1:35 pm: | |
... and then there's ex-Detroiter Miss_Cleo...  |
Jjw
Member
Username: Jjw
Post Number: 441
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 1:42 pm: | |
Cleo actually lived in Detroit?? I thought that thang was from Taylortucky? |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1515
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 1:43 pm: | |
>Accraghana
I noticed that in NYC, the local media continually reinforces what "a great city this is". It doesn't matter what the subject, but negative connotations are rarely, if ever associated with New York as whole.
They'll talk about a murder here, or a robbery there and then say "but New Yorkers are so resilient, that it doesn't bother them!" And the people here eat it up.
Rarely does anyone have a bad thing to say about the city, and whenever there is a complaint it is always spun as an experience to make a person stronger. It's a rite of passage to live in New York. It's something that sets New York a part from America and the world. It's amazing the effect that the propaganda has on the population...
Detroit media is quite the opposite, obviously. |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 15
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 1:51 pm: | |
Oakmangirl,
I'm not trying to be rude but please refer to my post to Jjw regarding recruitment efforts. I made a generalization in my original post in order to minimize board clutter. My anecdotal experience with recruitment managers is that given two equally qualified professionals, they prefer candidates from the Midwest over candidates from the East/West Coast or the South. The rational for this varies by industry.
As for college education, I'm well aware of official statistics. However, those figures are based on census numbers as you point out.
If you factor in the emigration of native Michiganders to other locales and more closely examine the correlation between average population age and possession of a bachelor's degree, you'll find that the 2006 census figures don't paint an accurate picture of a native Michigander's likelihood of having a college degree.
The only thing it provides is information that we can't keep our college educated youth located in the state and that a substantial portion of our increasingly older population does not have a college education.
If you were inferring somehow that I and the people I associate with all came from higher socio-economic classes that allow for the greater likelihood to participate in and obtain higher education, I would disagree with you. |
Accraghana
Member
Username: Accraghana
Post Number: 73
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 3:02 pm: | |
Iheartthed,
That is exactly what I am talking about. An area has to make a decision on what it is going to be known for and how it chooses to see itself and it really has to start from the top down so that the media will follow. I have not been to any city whose image is so cannibalized by the locals as the Detroit area. It’s as if out of the fear of getting no attention, Detroiters take pride and promote negative attention. For Detroiters being infamous seems the next best thing if it cannot be famous, as it garners just as much attention….which all human entities seem to crave. |
Margaret
Member
Username: Margaret
Post Number: 92
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 3:05 pm: | |
back to the original question: "I simply wish to determine whether there are many people on this site or otherwise who harbor complexes or attitudes against the City of Detroit or Michigan, due to the fact that they feel inferior that they have grown up in Michigan."
hmmmm. Queensfinest, you might find my story interesting. my folks were both from western Montana, but the dismal economy here drove my Dad to take a good job in Detroit, which he stayed with for 41 years, so we were raised in Detroit during the 50s and 60s. I left when I was 18 and never returned, because that huge city is just not for me. now I have been in western Montana for the past 24 years, as a "returning daughter" of sorts. it's totally different for me, of course, being from a huge industrial city like Detroit and now being in a rural Montana area...my attitude tends to be more along the lines of "I'm lucky I survived my adolescence during the late 60s in friggin dangerous Detroit," but that's partly because of my own hotheadedness etc.
before moving to Montana, I did live in places all over the U. S., including San Francisco. common reactions in all of the places, when I told people I am from Detroit, have been: "wow" and "good place to be from"...well, yes, of course: the crime, the pollution, and, I feel, the lack of cultural opportunity given the immense size of the city. not to mention the unbelievable destruction of my old east side neighborhood, our gorgeous old house having been torn down, it's a heartbreak for sure. but I have always been proud of being able to dance like a Motowner, that distinctive rhythmic Detroit soul style of boogie, you know what I mean. also have felt proud of Michigan, for sure.
there are so many fun aspects to having grown up in Detroit that I have taken completely for granted until being on this forum and remembering things like Twin Pines Dairy and Soupy Sales and Boblo Island, riding the DSR downtown with Mom for BLT lunches at Woolworth's, and so on. looking back, I wish our family had spent more time doing neat things in Detroit, like visiting Greektown, touring the Vernors factory, things like that.
do I feel inferior because I grew up in Michigan? Hell NO! |
Masterblaster
Member
Username: Masterblaster
Post Number: 79
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 4:24 pm: | |
Queen's Finest brings up a valid topic.
If you are a fan of urbanity - pedestrian-friendly, walkable, mixed used, high-density, diverse, fast-paced, and aesthetically pleasing environment, then...
... BEING FROM DETROIT AND MICHIGAN MIGHT BE AN EMBARASSMENT, because we don't have that here!!!(except for maybe Ann Arbor)
The City of New York is the poster child, the most outstanding example of urbanity, history, culture - Wall Street, 5th Avenue, Broadway, Times Square, Harlem, Greenwich Village, Bedford-Sty, Tribeca, the outstanding old architecture, brownstones, large/lavish apartment buildings, unique ethnic neighborhoods, fantastic public spaces like Central Park, unique shopping districts, fast and efficient subways.
So if you are a transplanted Metro Detroiter and you are living in New York, and you compare where you are from with what New York has to offer, then you might feel like, "Dang, I come from an inferior place" - few ethnic neighborhoods, no walkable shopping districts, dilapidated apartment buildings, houses, and skyscrapers in the central city, boring suburban life.
The vast majority of the people on this forum are looking for that New York lifestyle. The predominant topics of this forum is about downtown this, and midtown that, lofts and downtown shopping - THOSE ARE THE SECTIONS OF THIS CITY THAT RESEMBLE NEW YORK AND other the other romanticized cities of old - San Fran, Boston, DC.
Nobody on this forum ever talks about wanting to live in those pretty Northwest Detroit Neighbhorhoods like St. Mary's McCrary's or wanting to live in one of those elegant 1930's Tudors in the residential sections West of Livernois and North of McNichols. Do you know why???
Because these neighborhoods consist of single family homes - not brownstones, luxury high-rise apartments or lofts.
I remember a thread about Capitol Park section of downtown, and I remember a forumer talking about how he was impressed with the buildings of Capitol Park and how he wished that more sections of Detroit were built like that (more New York - like).
I remember another thread where there was a discussion of a website that put Detroit in a negative light. This website showed random pictures of dilapidated rowhouses that were more representative of Baltimore than Detroit. A forumer acknowledged that he wished those type of rowhouses were built in Detroit.
People on this forum talk about living in their midtown or downtown lofts - But isn't it in New York's Tribeca and Soho where the whole loft living started in the 1970's by starving artists? Nobody talks about wanting to fix up and live in the stunning two-family flats on Calvert Street or in the Dexter-Davison area, because those neighbhorhoods are not URBANE enough for those looking for that type of lifestyle, which are the vast majority of people on this forum. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1519
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 4:36 pm: | |
I dunno, I think if the gentrification wave ever does hit Detroit, it's gonna go down in those 2 family flat neighborhoods in the Dexter-Davison area and right off the Blvd. While it certainly isn't the best area around, those structures are built pretty well, and largely still in tact, aren't they? Plus those neighborhoods are pretty "walkable" only there isn't much to walk to.
The two family flat is the closest thing Detroit has to a brownstone. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1520
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 4:47 pm: | |
But to address what Mb said... As a native Detroiter ex-pat now New Yorker, I don't ever want to see Detroit try to become New York. That isn't gonna save it, because people who want New York will just go there.
What will save it is reimplementing the intrinsic characteristics that make a city liveable, such as a public transit system. Detroit had this when it was a booming city. Detroit doesn't have this anymore and it's not a booming city now.
Detroit doesn't have to copy NY in order to do have good public transit. Many cities around the world have very good transit systems and are very different (yet equally as vibrant) from NY. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 80
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 4:53 pm: | |
"The vast majority of the people on this forum are looking for that New York lifestyle."
I disagree. People might want an urban lifestyle but urban does not equal NYC. Sure, NYC eclipses most urban areas in the scale of everything. But for many, it's overwhelming. They would prefer a bit of Portland or DC or San Francisco in Detroit to a bit of NYC. There's a difference and it matters to a lot of people. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2180
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 4:55 pm: | |
I disagree too. I hear Boston-Edison, Indian Village, and Woodbridge mentioned here as much as Downtown. |
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