 
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3851
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:54 am: |    |
Never been on such a contract. Being at risk has its bumpy landing, I guess.
My central point was that those 300 contract positions would not continue, and that there would be another 300 left without work. The poster to which I responded seemed to imply that those contract positions would continue. Industry analysts recently interviewed on the electronic media said that those VW contractors were toast.
(Message edited by Livernoisyard on September 07, 2007) |
Ndavies
Member
Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2766
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:10 pm: | |
Everyone is at risk of losing their job. Some people just don't realize how much at risk they are. Full time non-union employees have absolutely no more standing than contract people in this economy.
Being contract I have no delusion of where I stand with a company. Unlike permanent employees who walk around with a huge false sense of security. I've been in 2 positions where the full time employees were cut and only the contract employees stayed. I usually have my next job lined up long before they come to cut me. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1579
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:14 pm: | |
" I usually have my next job lined up long before they come to cut me."
Lets hope there is a chair waiting for you in this game of musical chairs. Each day there are more people looking for the open chairs and fewer chairs available. |
Ndavies
Member
Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2767
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 1:01 pm: | |
Cambrian, Instead of looking to fit in the existing chairs, you should look for a new set of chairs that haven't even been unfolded yet. In today's economy all the chairs are folding chairs. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1580
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 1:09 pm: | |
Yeah? What are your speculations for emerging jobs that no one's thought of yet? Inquiring minds want to know. |
Ndavies
Member
Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2768
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:02 pm: | |
Are you fluent with the Mathworks products? Matlab, Simulink and Stateflow. At the moment there is a huge push to get people trained and fluent with these tools. Most engineers fresh out of school are. Many engineers my age aren't. Tools like this continue to enter the market. People with advanced skills in the incoming tools will always be valued.
People able to put new processes in place that exploit the tools are also in high demand. Engineers who create tools and processes that put other engineers out of work will always be in high demand.
Mostly it's not about the field, It's about the niche you occupy in the field. Cutting edge high growth industries will always turn into stable low growth businesses with shrinking engineering staffs. With the fast pace of innovation this change happens quicker every year. The question for you is how do you make yourself stand out from both the guy next to you and the guy at the desk at other end of the earth? You have to be more productive than both of them and the guy at the other end of the earth will happily live on 1/10 your salary. How will you produce 10 times more value than he does to remain competitive? What can you do that they can't? Answer that question and you'll keep yourself employed all your life. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1581
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:08 pm: | |
Actually, I have taken an FEA class, not used the knowledge yet. Your comments make sense. Let's hope the boss's will keep liking the quality of the one innovative worker over the cost of the foreign workers. |
Ndavies
Member
Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2769
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:35 pm: | |
The bosses don't care where the work is done. All they know is they have this huge amount of work that needs to be done and this little tiny basket of money to pay for it. Whoever can do the most quality work for the least amount of money will get the work.
We've had some success pulling jobs back from India and China by automating many of the lower level engineering tasks. So while we've made the lower level engineers redundant, We've made the engineer with the domain knowledge here more valuable. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3857
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:38 pm: | |
The major Tiers, such as Lear and Delphi, pretty much telegraphed in BLOCK CHARACTERS that they will be exporting to the US after a few years, if not already.
(Message edited by Livernoisyard on September 07, 2007) |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1575
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:40 pm: | |
Are you fluent with the Mathworks products? Matlab, Simulink and Stateflow. At the moment there is a huge push to get people trained and fluent with these tools.
Really? I guess I fall into the "fresh out of school" category, but I'm surprised these aren't more widely used tools. |
Ro_resident
Member
Username: Ro_resident
Post Number: 268
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 3:19 pm: | |
LY, the information I got was that 300 full time employees and 300 contractor positions would be retained in the area once VW moved their HQ.
About 300 contract positions will be dropped. So half will be terminated.
The Free Press has a copy of the corporate email that was circulated yesterday (however it is dated today (9/7)):
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070907/BUS INESS01/70907003/1002
From the email:
"Our current headquarters workforce is roughly 1,400. Of these, 800 are full-time employees and 600 are contractors or employees of service providers assigned to the Company. After the relocation and organizational changes, approximately 400 positions will be transferred to our new headquarters. Positions there will be filled with employees who relocate and new hires. Approximately 300 full-time positions and 300 contractors or service providers will remain in Oakland County." |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3860
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 3:27 pm: | |
The so-called industry experts interviewed on radio/TV stated that the contractors would likely not be rehired. They didn't say if or when they might be prematurely terminated.
VW would know--and probably wouldn't say at this point, in any event. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1582
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:12 pm: | |
"The major Tiers, such as Lear and Delphi, pretty much telegraphed in BLOCK CHARACTERS that they will be exporting to the US after a few years, if not already. "
Does this mean Steve Miller will be relocating to Asia? |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3862
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:26 pm: | |
Miller stated on WJR today that he lives now in the metro area. But much of his plants will be gone or closing stateside, I reckon. The off-shore Delphi operations are (mostly?) in the black, aren't they? |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1583
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:41 pm: | |
Just wandering at the semantics of being a US company that imports vs. an Asian Company that Exports. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 343
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:47 pm: | |
There is no such thing as a single-country company anymore. It's a global economy - I can think of ten companies right now in this region I've met in the past month that have 3-10 US employees and 40or more Indian/Eastern European/South American employees/contractors.
They're US companies, but are they, really? All the "production" or "manufacture" is done outside of the US. They're all "Michigan Based" as well. And, they're successful, making millions, and their clients do not care one bit. I've found, actually, that no one when making purchasing decisions cares if the work is done here, just that it's done.
In fact, to do work completely in Michigan (or the US) is a HUGE cost disadvantage in many sectors, pricing you out of the market. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1584
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:55 pm: | |
Yeah DV, but how much of that money (Wages paid to foreign workers) comes back to those companies? Sure the savings may be recognized as more pay in bonuses for the Savvy Execs, even that though, how does a well compensated exec add to a company, or a lower paid worker in another country? What do I as a consumer get from a company that has well paid execs and a lower paid bottom force, that I couldn't get from another company? Exactly, nothing. So why not buy from a company that is commited to our US economy first? There is an assumption by these so called US companies that there is an infinite supply of gainfully employed dupes in the US to buy there stuff. Take them out of the equation do you think the Asians will pick up the slack? Or will the asians simply take any knowledge gained by working for the US companies and start up their own competing businesses? With cut throat pricing of course.
(Message edited by cambrian on September 07, 2007) |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 344
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 6:15 pm: | |
Both, I think, Cambrian. It's not an either-or question, I wish it were that simple.
Of the companies I'm thinking of, most of those a significant part of their revenues comes from selling to international markets or their clients who serve international markets.
It's not as simple as the US is the only consumer anymore - in fact, most businesses with reach are betting on the fact that there are still a billion people to add to the middle class across the globe in the upcoming decades. And those people will want cars, computers, Starbucks, Nike, American-style media content (music, movies, etc), and more.
The world may not always have the highest opinion of our government, but they sure want our culture and comforts and time and time again it's been shown that as the globe gets richer they buy in.
The best way to think of where our economy is now is to think of it as the globe as one big country, one big market, with sub-sections. And, the clock is not going to turn back to how it was... it simply is impossible to close the box once it's opened. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1585
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 6:34 pm: | |
I don't see emerging markets in other countries ever coming close to what our purchase power was. The planet does not have the physical resources to provide others with our lifestyle before it runs out of oil, water, and coal to name a few. It just sickens me when you replace a worker here that had a cottage, with a new pick up and an SUV for the wife to shuttle the kids around in, with a guy in India who you have to convince that he needs a car. And that car won't be an Escalade try a $4000 Yugo type car. And further convince him that he needs a 3200 square foot house in Suburban Banglore with all the toys. And we think we've accomplished something. Even if you manage to convince him he has to have that stuff it's a stretch to think he's going to be loyal to a US brand and not loyal to a local to him brand. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 345
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 7:21 pm: | |
What's interesting - as much as I agree there are resource limits, there is also lots of innovation. There is a ton of money to be made in stretching, conserving, and creating new resources.
Imagine the exponential world growth that's possible when we can evolve out of fossil fuels as our energy source? Europe already gets half of it's electric power from nuclear.
Brazil uses sugar cane - and Fiat is the number 1 automaker, and VW, as we know a german company, is number two moving 340,000 vehicles a year - compared to only 156,000 in the entire United States. In Brazil, GM is a close third to VW. None of those companies are from Brazil, so I don't buy the local loyalty stuff. Oh, and the low-end Fiat in Brazil - $11,000 dollars U.S. new. Not $4,200.
People in other countries are willing to risk their lives to have what we have. I've met them. I've met people who have escaped war zones and worked for a decade or more just to get here to have this life. Who have left their families and all they love behind. I truly believe you don't need to convince people to go for what we have.
The $4000 car is a first step, think longer term. Think ten or twenty years from now - India had 3.1 million college grads in 2006, China 3.3 million - the US, 1.3 million. We only need to look at history to see that the countries that are world leaders change on a regular basis.
We as people are a lot more alike than we are different. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 362
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 7:53 pm: | |
DV, Don't confuse incompetence, greed and corruption with natural progression and evolution.
Whats happening to the US is not going to go on until the entire country parallels Asia, thats where its headed. We aren't going to build their economy and not destroy ours. Simple math.
Don't be surprised one day when the boom gets dropped on the importers and out-sourcers. My experience here is the US either does nothing or way too much when it finally does. And something is definitely going to change in regard to trade. It's not an IF it's just a WHEN. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 346
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 8:30 pm: | |
I just don't buy the argument for one to succeed, the other must fail, Sstashmoo.
We, especially as Detroit-regioners, think that it's a pie. And, therefore, there is only so much to go around. The prevailing thought is that every job comes at the expense of another. A move to downtown comes at the expense of Farmington Hills or Livonia. A move to Troy came at the expense of downtown. It's part of the reason why as a region, we are economically troubled. We aren't "bakers."
The last 20 or 30 years have proven that in fact, there is more pie - the pie is getting larger every day - and so therefore it doesn't have to be an us vs. them thing. Look at Ann Arbor being the state's economic bright spot, ranked much higher above the other Michigan areas in recent surveys and studies.
They, because they can attract investment money and have an engine like U of M, create new opportunities - new businesses, new technologies that heretofore did not exist. In effect, they are baking more pie.
I do agree, however, we need to be careful. I also agree that the United States' tendency to under or overreact can be our downfall. We need truly free and fair trade - China and Japan need to really float their currencies - we should not be forced to produce in China to sell in China, as is currently the case. We need to address those issues now so that later we're not fighting them when the problems created by such inequities are even worse. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 96
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 8:47 pm: | |
American Axle, next spring, maybe.... |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 363
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 10:08 pm: | |
DV, it doesn't take an economics major to understand the devastating consequences of losing jobs, loss of manufactured goods and exporting dollars that never return.
When an Asian product is bought here with American dollars, that money doesn't stay here. And it never returns.
How you can think the above is going to have no effect is beyond me. And Ann Arbor is a poor example. Because without Detroit, it would just be a wide spot in the road. Everyone starts waving their flag when a tech company moves into AA. Big deal. What are they really? Take Google, they handle information. It's not a product. It's a BS company as is Ebay, Amazon and countless others. Are these the companies that are going to sustain our economy?
As Cambrian very aptly pointed out, the planet simply doesn't have the resources to put 2 or 3 more Billion people in automobiles. Consider the ecological effects alone.
Quite frankly I like this life we live and our forefathers didn't fight and die so a few corrupt politicians and others could turn around and hand it to someone else. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 349
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 10:42 pm: | |
Information IS the product of the new economy. Google's 4.63 billion in cash-on-hand must be monopoly money, so is its' 27% profit margin.
We'll just have to agree to disagree if you think information has no value and is not a product or BS.
I never said it will have NO effect - there will be pains, there are pains, and they're magnified here as we're behind the curve. We're currently realigning our entire economy towards being knowledge based - and that's tough. I do not have all the answers to ease the inevitable transition.
You may not believe it, but I am a HUGE supporter of green technologies, run a carbon-neutral operation and household, and think that for national security and environmental reasons we need to be off of all fossil fuels - and that it's a disgrace the rest of the world seems to have tougher emissions standards than we do.
What I find interesting is that many of those "BS" companies are some of the biggest proponents of the environmentalism you speak of, and the manufacturing you defend fights it at every turn.
If you're right, and we can't or shouldn't sell cars to those 2 billion people, we better come up with something else to sell them. And information doesn't take nearly as many natural resources. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 350
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 10:49 pm: | |
Oh... and check out Google's benefits package. Not too shabby.
http://www.google.com/support/ jobs/bin/static.py?page=benefi ts.html
25 days of vacation after six years, 15 days your first year...
12 weeks off for maternity at 75% pay (great for private sector),
A take-out benefit - new moms and dads are able to expense up to $500 for take-out meals during the first four weeks that they are home with their new baby.
Ohh... Adoption assistance too. $5000 toward those costs.
And, $8000 a year tuition reimbursement per year.
Sounds like a job my forefathers fought for. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 113
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:36 pm: | |
What are they thinking? Don't they know that the only way to succeed in business and government is to cut pay and cut benefits? They're probably run by a bunch of pinko socialists. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 364
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 1:08 am: | |
Yeah DV, you're right, we should just shut down all manufacturing here. Buy everything from foreign countries. Park our cars and start riding bikes. Produce nothing tangible, Our GNP can exist on web servers. Corner the market on 9 dollar websites. And we'll all exist on Google's $4B and live happily ever after.. Or however long it lasts.
What was I thinking?
An internet information based company is temporary and transparent. They could fall of the earth overnight. You want all your eggs in that basket? I don't.
And you do know how Google generates that income? Businesses that manufacture goods buy Adwords preference so the sites where they sell Manufactured goods will show up in searches. The rest of it is free and generates nothing. Without manufacturers they'd be heading back to the basement where they started a few years ago. |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 1556
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 10:01 am: | |
Putting all our eggs in one basket (manufacturing) is what got us in this mess in the first place. Putting all our eggs in Google type companies basket is equally as risky. We need to encourage a wide range of investment in MI, so we can weather things a lot better. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1587
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 4:47 pm: | |
Good points there Sstash, it's too bad the party line these days is for greed instead of common sense. Slowly people are coming around, let's hope there's something left to jumpstart when we wake from this nightmare. |
Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4117
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 6:35 pm: | |
Good conversation all! Ndavies is a model of the information age worker, understands the realities and moves with them rather than dwelling in gloom.
The fact is that we have been tossed into a flowing global economy. Fewer and fewer sources of income will be permanent, skills are quickly devalued. My metaphor is that we are crossing the Detroit river by hopping from ice slab to ice slab, each one is melting under us and a lot of others are jumping too. It is not very comforting.
We have a front row seat here in Detroit where in a single generation we are witnessing the disappearance of a comfortably provided manufacturing middle class.
And it is not just the assembly line workers. I have two relatives that in the past months trained people from Mexico and China to do their jobs. No they are not out of a job yet, but the latter is being taught Mandarin and may be required to move to China.
The message is loud and clear and has been for quite a while. School is in forever. One must continually upgrade his or her knowledge, look for the next edge and move toward it.
It is also becoming apparent that with such a fluid work force that we need move toward a new national safety net that will guarantee health care, food, shelter and education to all. People will be in and out of the work foroce several times in the lives. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1588
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 7:00 pm: | |
It's actually possible to make things here and still turn a profit, just not the types of profits that would please Rick Wagoner, Steve Miller and the Walton 5. There are lots of companies that grasp the idea of supporting a community who in turn supports them.
http://travel.discovery.com/tv /ratzenberger-america/goods/go ods.html?dcitc=w29-505-aj-0004 &q= |
Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 458
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 6:38 am: | |
Quote:
"It is also becoming apparent that with such a fluid work force that we need move toward a new national safety net that will guarantee health care, food, shelter and education to all. People will be in and out of the work foroce several times in the lives."
We need to make health care more universal and portable (as we have with 401K type programs).
If we have moved from the model where both blue and white collar employees hire and retire from the same employer 30 years later then we need to make health insurance less dependent on ones employment status (as that is more like the weather then the sun rising in the east).
This would be a good point for the Dems in their universal health care debate.
The need for universal health care INCREASES as we move from old models of career employment with one employer to many employers and with breaks in employment (and yes, for women who go out and in the labor force for motherhood). |
Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 459
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 6:44 am: | |
BTW, I support some type of program which would allow anyone (employed or not) to buy into a huge pool health insurance program similar to or parallel to what the Federal employees have. [for those employed, the employer would pay most of the cost].
The success to health insurance is huge pools which spreads the risk around. |
New threads cannot be started on this page. The threads above are previous posts made to this thread.