Jimg Member Username: Jimg
Post Number: 916 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 8:38 pm: | |
Maybe another way to approach this topic: I'm told that blues changes were introduced into American music by slaves (or ex-slaves) just after the Civil War. Blues spoke directly of the black experience in America - injustice, love, loss, whatever. Blues was integrated into early jazz bands and remains an integral part of jazz. Early musicians both black and white played the blues, some of them were masterful blues players (Armstrong, Teagarden, Lonnie Johnson, Fats Waller). Once electric guitars became popular in the 1950s, more white musicians took up the blues – maybe because blues is universal, and fundamentally honest. Blues became integrated into mainstream white American music. To paraphrase Willie Dixon, “blues is the facts of everyday life.” Everybody gets the blues, so musicians of all backgrounds play them. It’s all about feeling…I’ve heard Muddy Waters and Junior Wells. They are my Gold Standards. Why argue about who has the right to play blues? If the music is honest and full of feeling, dig it. As a sidenote, one of Mali's greatest musicians, Djelimadi Tounkara, when asked about the blues and its African roots, noted that Africans had played the blues but had moved on to other things... I admit I'm underwhelmed by the whole HOB thang, but if it creates more jobs for Det musicians, bring it on... |
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2222 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 9:53 pm: | |
"if it creates more jobs for Det musicians, bring it on..." Right. Let's not overlook the fact that musicians need venues where they can showcase (and get paid for) their talent by playing live music. Right now, there are damn few places where they can do that in the metro area. |
Citylover Member Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2617 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 9:58 pm: | |
Oakman girl you are thinking of Kim Simonds of Savoy Brown.I am refering to Kim Wilson of the fabulous Thunderbirds....... Good post Jim........for anyone that saw the pbs thing on the blues and the british segment there is simply no way around the fact that Jeff Beck plays the hell out of the blues(as well as anyone) and Tom Jones and Lulu (that's right Lulu) are both fine blues singers. I know this: If little Walter were alive and doing a gig he would want musicians that knew how to play the music.What color they were or how old they were or how poor they were or how much blues they had experienced would mean next to nothing. I am with Fury.Detroit does not need a chain "blues" place where blues is rarely if ever played. |
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess
Post Number: 460 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:01 pm: | |
quote:Detroit does not need a chain "blues" place where blues is rarely if ever played. Yeah, when I was in New Orleans last March, the House of Blues hosted Madeleine Peyroux and Richard Julien one night, and Richard Thompson the next. It would really suck if they played here, since the name of the venue would ruin the show. |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 281 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 12:02 am: | |
Citylover, Thanks for clarifying; I mixed up the names, and it's not the first time I feel like a dolt. I know the Fab Thunderbirds work (not as well as Savoy Brown)- sorry, I still think they sound even more like white guy blues. Do you know of Blind Willie Johnson? Check out "Praise God I'm Satisfied" on Yazoo. He's an amazing bottleneck guitarist from the 20's. Anyway... Anyone familiar with the Hines Farm Blues Club outside of Toledo? Count Basie opened the place; John Lee Hooker played there in the 50's. Very cool, authentic juke joint. http://www.hinesfarm.com/index .php?id=history1 Does the Detroit area have anything like this? Not necessarily in the city. (Message edited by Oakmangirl on September 08, 2007) |
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 147 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 1:45 am: | |
I'm not much of a blues listener but I do like Stevie Ray Vaughn, R.I.P.. He knew the guitar well... |
Jimg Member Username: Jimg
Post Number: 917 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 9:46 am: | |
I respect your choices, Oakmangirl, but I heard Savoy Brown more often than I cared to and think their attempts at blues were bereft of honesty and really sucked. Some Brit bands really 'got it', like John Mayall and Alexis Korner and Eric 'Slowhand' Clapton. Check out the Lonnie Johnson/Eddie Lang guitar duets - those guys were untouchable. And who can come within an acoustic mile of Bessie Smith for feeling? "Nearer the Gods no mortal may approach..." |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 284 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 10:04 am: | |
No, Jimg, I'm not crazy for Savoy Brown...Citylover and I were discussing blues guitarists. In an earlier post, I called it "blue-eyed blues"; both Kim Simonds, and even more so, Kim Wilson- I agree with you. However, I hate to say it because I know he's worshiped, but I think Clapton is way overrated. Ugh, and the ego on that guy! Bessie Smith; most yes, although technically gospel, I think Mahalia Jackson has it over everyone. Her voice gives me goose bumps. |
Publicmsu Member Username: Publicmsu
Post Number: 696 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 8:10 pm: | |
I was reading that they're going to open a House of Boos in Ann Arbor next Saturday. |
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2229 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 9:37 pm: | |
Sigh... I'm still waiting for the next Elmore James. |
Citylover Member Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2620 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 12:23 am: | |
It is obvious you don't have a clue what Kim Wilson sounds like Oakman girl. Suffice to say he was mentored by Muddy Waters plays harmonica as well as anyone ever has and is about as far away from blue eyed blues or whatever you call it as possible. The fact is it has been mostly white guys in the last thirty years that have kept the Chcago blues tradition going. |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 301 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 12:59 am: | |
Citylover, You're rather harsh. Yes, I do know what Kim Wilson sounds like, but I'm so distracted by the slick branding and sound of the group, I honestly haven't honed in enough on the harp. They're okay, just not my cup of tea. Maybe I need to try his solo work. Besides I was focused on guitar. It's clear from what I posted that I prefer a different style of blues. Hell, no wonder Waters would, as you said "beg to differ"; they worked together. |
Jimg Member Username: Jimg
Post Number: 918 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 12:59 am: | |
Yeah Fury13 I hear ya...I'm waiting for Bird, or somebody like him... |
Jazzstage Member Username: Jazzstage
Post Number: 96 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 11:25 am: | |
As much as I love bird and all the other patron saints of jazz/blues, I am waiting for someone that has a completely new approach to the blues. On the other hand, one listen to Parker's Blues and you know no body got so deep inside those changes as Bird did. MMMMMMMmmmmmmm |
Jimg Member Username: Jimg
Post Number: 919 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 12:35 pm: | |
Parker told pianist Lennie Tristano (1947 or 1948) that he'd extracted the last ounce of invention from the timeless blues... |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 309 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 12:41 pm: | |
Jimg, a Tristano fan? Wow, he's pure genius. So's Thelonious Monk. Is there any film footage of Tristano? |
Jimg Member Username: Jimg
Post Number: 920 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 2:43 pm: | |
Tristano's "Requiem" (written for Bird shortly after his passing) is brilliant, as are many of his tracks with Konitz and/or Marsh - not to mention his superb Keynote trio recs. There are a few 'live' recordings with Bird: The "Bands for Bonds" broadcast from 1947 and a few odd cuts from somebody's apartment with Bird, Lennie and someone on brushes/suitcase, a la Josh Billings. There is performance footage available with Lee and (I think) Warne. And a fat bio of Tristano came out earlier this year. |
Jimg Member Username: Jimg
Post Number: 921 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 2:49 pm: | |
P.S. - appears as though you've dug into some stuff below the surface, Oakmangirl. Tried on Herbie Nichols yet? |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 314 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 3:11 pm: | |
Haven't heard of Nichols; what's essential? I've been into Tristano for a while...a friend and I even made a pilgrimage to 316 E 32nd (I think that's it)- sadly, the apt. is gone. |
Jimg Member Username: Jimg
Post Number: 922 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 3:56 pm: | |
Pilgrimage = very heavy activity Any of Herbie's Blue Notes or his very tasty Bethlehem release. There is a solid single BN CD. It's all good...check out "2300 Skiddoo" or "Lady Sings The Blues" written for Billie, there was supposedly a tape of Lady/Herbie doing that song but it hasn't turned up, sadly. Nice chapter on Herbie in A.B. Spellman's excellent "Four Lives in the Bebop Business". Unrecognized master. You might also like Dodo Marmarosa - there is a CD of his Dial trio material, kinda odd, some of it, but he also recorded with Bird, and Howard McGhee. Had a very loose wig, Dodo, ended up in a nut house, died just last year. You must read Ira Gitler's "Jazz Masters of the 40's" - Ira just appeared at this years jazzfest. One of my heroes. |
Citylover Member Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2625 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 5:20 pm: | |
Tristano stuff on youtube......... Jim you remind me of a story a friend of mine that plays trombone told me. Btw this is a friend that saw Count Basies 1st New York appearance.This friend also saw the Basie orchestra sometime in the mid fifties at a club in Detroit (flame showbar maybe)where my friend and his party were the only patrons there......Basie let them call the tunes. Anyhow my friend is from Pittsburgh were Dodo Marmarosa was from. One day my friend was invited to a jam session . An informal get together in someones basement. The piano player was Dodo Marmarosa. |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 316 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 6:17 pm: | |
Thanks for the tips, guys. Speaking of loose wigs...if you like Monk, I recommend trying to track down a video shot in Denmark; it's shot in an empty public spa/pool, in b&w, with Monk killing it. Anyone a Roland Kirk fan? Can't stop listening lately. |
Jimg Member Username: Jimg
Post Number: 923 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 7:36 pm: | |
Fantastic, Rahsaan...he used to play at the Ibo Cultural Center, near McNichols/Third, regularly in the very early 70's. Amazing talent, sharp wit, always had a smokin' hot band. "Out of the Afternoon" is a favorite. His last gigs in Det were at Baker's. He was playing more 'smooth jazz and R&B' at the time. CL, your friend was really lucky. There's a CD on Uptown with Dodo material from the 50's, really good. |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 320 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 7:43 pm: | |
Ack! You saw him perform live? This is one time I wish I were older |
Jimg Member Username: Jimg
Post Number: 924 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 8:04 pm: | |
What a wonderful sound on tenor...I really learned to appreciate ballads by hearing Rahsaan. When Rahsaan played the blues on his tenor it was just too much...And his Manzello and Stritch playing was somethin' else...can see him now playing all three horns at once. Not a gimmick either, he created great music on those horns, and his flute, and his nose flute too. He had a 'prop' table chair that he'd break apart during one song. He was a very friendly person, warm and sincere...Ron Burton on piano, Henry Pete Peterson on bass, Joe Texidor on sound tree...can't recall his drummer. There are several recordings from that time and from them you can get a sense of what he played in clubs. Perhaps Citylover heard Rahsaan too? |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 321 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 9:27 pm: | |
Yes, I remember being blown away by the sheer audacity and talent in playing 3 instruments at the same time. I have seen live footage and remember him coming across as mellow and witty. But to be IN the room...damn the cheesy HOB. Why aren't there many musicians of this caliber anymore? Everything seems so slick and branded. I know they've got to be out there. |
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336
Post Number: 2063 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 9:12 am: | |
the connection between southern country music and the blues has been cross-polinating since the beginning. listening to ledbetter and contemporary souther white country music, there is little difference other than inflection and linguistic differences. introduction of the electric guitar was where they really parted company |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 324 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 12:47 pm: | |
Rb336, Good point. So, did rock and roll start with...Chuck Berry? |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1353 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 1:10 pm: | |
Music, at its very best, brings us together. I would like to think that white folks bring something to black music. Do they take something away too? Yes, sometimes they do. (See BLUESHAMMER in GHOST WORLD.) But ultimately, I'd say that, musically speaking, rock and roll represents a great moment in U.S. history, when white people and black people came up with a sound that recognized this: Our destinies as white people and black people in America are inextricably tied together. Now, back to the music. |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 327 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 6:21 pm: | |
^Does anyone like that song Ebony & Ivory? (sorry, I have no self-control) |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1357 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 6:31 pm: | |
Heh! Do I! Yes, in music composed name of interracial harmony, many a cringe-inducing moment there! (The song was still better than SAY SAY SAY and SPIES LIKE US!) |
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2243 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 6:33 pm: | |
Oakmangirl, rock 'n' roll started before Chuck Berry (his first record came out in 1955), but he was certainly a leader of the genre. There are those who will say rock 'n' roll started with artists like Ike Turner & his Kings of Rhythm, even Louis Jordan, Amos Milburn, Wynonie Harris, the Five Royales, the Clovers, Ray Charles, Ruth Brown. There's a fine line between early '50s R&B (and some country of that era, too) and rock 'n' roll. |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 329 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 6:58 pm: | |
Fury, I can see Louis Jordan. I think Caldonia (sp?) might qualify, or am I way off base? |
Jimg Member Username: Jimg
Post Number: 926 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 9:55 pm: | |
You're in the pocket, Oakmangirl. Several elements went into R&R. Louie J and several other Decca artists like Sammy Price purveyed Jump Blues in the late 30s...There is a group of local authors (the Gang of Four) who put together an audio/video presentation dealing with the evolution of R&B into R&R. In a nutshell, R&B started with Illinois Jacquet's 1942 "Flying Home" solo with Hamp. This launched a generation of honkin' tenor saxophonists playing blues drenched music, high horsepower piano pounding stuff far different from "Beyonce" or "other" contemporary R&B artists...the tenor was replaced by the guitar for a number of reasons, add a strong backbeat, good vocals, then you sprinkle in some gospel, country, and bake at 451 degrees F...add several low-budget record labels and PRESTO! You got Rock and Roll! |
Jimg Member Username: Jimg
Post Number: 927 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 10:07 pm: | |
PS - Ian Anderson could've absorbed Kirk's flute sound - that raspy attack. Yusef Lateef uses that sometimes. Perhaps it is more common than I think? |