 
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1569
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:30 am: |    |
No, I think I'm in the right ball park.
The point is that many white people, particularly those living and working in predominantly white suburbs, can go along their normal day without having to interact with people of other races. They certainly rarely, if ever have to deal with a minority that has a direct influence on their quality of life.
On the other hand, how much can you say of the vice-versa? |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2035
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:40 am: | |
white privilege does not refer to what you seem to think is a luxury of not having someone of another race exert influence over you quality of life...
white privilege just refers to advantages enjoyed by white people that aren't enjoyed by other races...example: a lender giving a white person a lower interest rate on their loan for no valid reason... |
Michmeister
Member
Username: Michmeister
Post Number: 240
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:43 am: | |
TJ, to a point I believe your point to be true as well, because they worked ahead of the situation. They have built themselves a nice little island of security where they can be among themselves, why would they waste time on something that doesn`t exist for them, if only on the surface. Out of sight, out of mind.
And sorry, get over it is really the only answer. What is there to do to correct the glaring inequities of the past? Social programs? Affirmative action? It all ends being nothing more than hand outs from whitey, and what is that worth?
The human body should have ten eyes- nine to look ahead with, and one to look back with, to remember the things that should never happen again, to any race, religion or whatever we let separate ourselves from one another, so tragically. To maybe oversimplify, the ghetto kid might like pierogi, the Jew might like chit`lins, and the Mexican might like corned beef and cabbage. It is really high time we removed our blinders and take notice of what a wonderful world there is outside of the borders we put up to fence ourselves in. We are so chicken-shits! |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1570
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:47 am: | |
white privilege does not refer to what you seem to think is a luxury of not having someone of another race exert influence over you quality of life...
From your own source:
"Tatum contends dominant microcultures (in this case, white people) set the parameters in which "subordinate" microcultures operate. This is reflected in who gets the best jobs, whose history will be taught in school, whose relationships will be validated by society, etc."
I.e. who controls whose quality of life.
But whatever... |
Michmeister
Member
Username: Michmeister
Post Number: 241
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:49 am: | |
Accra- bake your own cookies, they taste better than store-bought and are a lot more satisfying. Sure it`s a lot of work but that is part of the satisfaction. |
Ferntruth
Member
Username: Ferntruth
Post Number: 141
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:50 am: | |
"a lender giving a white person a lower interest rate on their loan for no valid reason"
Isn't it more likely that the lender (if they wanted to discriminate) would offer a black person a HIGHER interest rate, versus offering the white person a lower one? I know it sounds like semantics, but I think the difference is important. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10036
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:53 am: | |
Mich - It certainly is easy for the advantaged majority to say 'get over it'. Therein lies the issue. Those that have benefited either don;t see the issue of inequality or choose to ignore it.
Not acknowledging the inequality is the biggest contributor to racial issues that still persist.
How do you bake your own cookies when your flour costs more, when you have no acces to eggs, when a bank will loan you money for an oven but won't loan it to others or at a higher rate.
Saying get over it is the cowardly way to deal with issues that are still prevalent in this day and age especially in Michigan. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2036
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:57 am: | |
lhearthed:
You either sound confused or like your trying to stretch the definition of white privilege for some reason that I don't really understand...but good luck in figuring out whatever it is you're trying to figure out... |
Accraghana
Member
Username: Accraghana
Post Number: 76
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:57 am: | |
Ahhhhhh…I can see the Fox now telling the Hens to ignore that they have been a staple of the Fox’s diet for centuries and that he is looking to promote their well being by being a guard for them. The only solution, the Fox says, for your safety is to forget that we have eaten you in the past as we are now “Full” and have not need to eat you. Your only solution is to accept our recommendation for solutions to your problems…..because by the way……we control the politics, economics and laws……so you really have no choice but to trust us. Ignore that memory is an evolved trait that is designed to promote survival via recording and avoiding things that have eaten you in the past.
Mich.....whites did not bake their own cookies for if they would have they would not have needed African slaves.....or the indians land. In other words.....the cooks (slaves) and the dough (Native Lands).
(Message edited by accraghana on September 07, 2007) |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1571
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:59 am: | |
You either sound confused or like your trying to stretch the definition of white privilege for some reason that I don't really understand...but good luck in figuring out whatever it is you're trying to figure out...
I'm trying to explain to you the definition of a term that I'm already very familiar with. Do you even know who Beverly Tatum is? |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2037
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:59 am: | |
"Isn't it more likely that the lender (if they wanted to discriminate) would offer a black person a HIGHER interest rate, versus offering the white person a lower one? I know it sounds like semantics, but I think the difference is important."
Actually, it isn't..."higher" and "lower" are relative terms...i.e., If lender offers white person 6% and black person 8%, then white person's rate is lower than black person's and black person's is higher than white person's |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2039
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:04 pm: | |
JT1:
I agree with your last post to Mich...but my experience is that while white people tend to grossly underestimate the effects of racism on black people, black people tend to grossly overestimate the effects of racism on them...
to me, a lot of the time spent discussing how racism has or has not affected society is time that could better be spent doing something productive to improve one's quality of life... |
Bratt
Member
Username: Bratt
Post Number: 621
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:08 pm: | |
Unfortunately Jt, that is alot of people's answers....get over it. But that's okay too. Because the world is constantly changing. Look at the reproduction rates. Look at the multi-racial couples out there having children. It's becoming one great big old melting pot. And that is a good thing.
The white race is the majority for now, and that's okay too. In the next 20 years or so, that will change as well. They will become the minority. But who cares, we're not racist? It shouldn't matter who is the majority right? When the Latinos became the minority a few years ago, African Americans didn't care...we just said WOW.
So when they become the majority....African Americans will say...double WOW.
And if white people aren't racist and just want everyone to get along, they would sit back and say WOW as well. But something is telling me that won't happen. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1572
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:13 pm: | |
^Actually, the funny thing about races/cultural boundaries is that they are constantly being redefined. So, I don't put too much credence in white people not being the majority any time soon. Remember, there was a time when jews, italians, greeks, etc., weren't "white". |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2376
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:13 pm: | |
quote: On the other hand, what did blacks ever do to white people that created their resentment and dislike of black people?
1. The crime rate among blacks is far higher than any other group in the US.
2. Blacks make up about 12% of the US population but are getting 37% of AFDC payments.
3. Out of wedlock birth rate is at 68% causing massive social problems.
4. 47% functional illiteracy in Detroit. How does that allow you to take opportunities if they are available?
5. The ghetto and "gansta rap" culture that encourages self-destructive behavior among all races.
6. Race baiters like Jackson, Sharpton and Farrakhan.
7. Constantly blaming white racism for all problems in the black community even though much of it is self-inflicted.
These are a few of the reasons that resentment against blacks exist. We can all argue about the causes for the grim statistics but they are what they are.
As for the other issues, I think blacks would do well to embrace public figures not in the mold of the people I mentioned.
Of course the white community suffers from many of the same problems but not at the same rate and no excuses are made for them (or given credence).
Most white folks have it drilled into their heads from birth that being a law abiding, productive citizen is the goal and there is a severe social stigma for not doing so.
There are millions of blacks that are doing very well and I would wager that their family upbringing played a huge role in that just like everyone else. That is where the most progress can be made.
You can call all me a right-wing Conservative Christian suburbanite war-monger and Klan member but the question was asked and I answered it.
In reality, that vast majority of people would like to see more black people succeed, it would be better for everyone. But in the end you can only help people who are willing to help themselves.
Constantly telling whites that we will never understand the "black experience" really gets us nowhere. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10039
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:15 pm: | |
TJ - I agree with most of that.
Bratt - It will be an interesting 50 years in that regard. |
Bratt
Member
Username: Bratt
Post Number: 622
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:17 pm: | |
Jt: would you like to respond to PG"s post above.
D Stylin: How about you? Can you respond?
I need to take a breather after reading that one. |
Accraghana
Member
Username: Accraghana
Post Number: 77
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:18 pm: | |
I don’t think that whites grossly underestimate the affects of racism on blacks; I don’t think they really care that much in the first place. What whites grossly understate, in my opinion, is the presence of racism within them. Hence, what whites underestimate is the existence of white racism and therefore if there is little racism then they see nothing holding blacks down but blacks.
In regards to blacks overestimating the impact of racism upon their lives, I do not buy that either. When you say blacks, I am assuming that means at least 51% of blacks. I think what many whites do not realize is that the black condition of today is the product of PAST and PRESENT racism. Every condition has an evolution and racism was a major part of the evolution of blacks in this country and plays a major role in the state of blacks in this country, notwithstanding a marked decline in contemporary levels of racism. Hence, for blacks to say their condition is influenced by racism does not necessarily mean only PRESENT racism, but also past racism. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10040
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:25 pm: | |
quote:Jt: would you like to respond to PG"s post above.
No. I am happy to discuss with people that are willing to discuss, listen and give the issue some thought (such as TJ). I am well aware of how set PG is in his beliefs and responding will do no good. |
Michmeister
Member
Username: Michmeister
Post Number: 242
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:26 pm: | |
JT1- you are right, talk is cheap and it is certainly not that simple, not by a longshot. But like every problem there is an answer, just what? And from whom? Are the disadvantaged waiting for the solution to come from the cause of the problem? Fat chance. There are, when you "boil-off all the excess water, and trim all the fat", there are three solutions, education, education and most importantly so listen up kiddies, education. But you have to have the hunger and that comes from within. |
Accraghana
Member
Username: Accraghana
Post Number: 78
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:27 pm: | |
PefectGentlemen,
Your rationalization is akin to this. You stomp my toe and in reaction I yell out in pain. Then you rationalize further animosity towards me because I yelled out in pain. That is circular reasoning….or the lack there of. Don’t use the symptoms or negative reactions that manifest in blacks from their historical oppression as rationalizations for not liking blacks. No one has to deal with those symptoms more than black people do. For use it’s a pain to feel…..for you…..its just an excuse to justify a traditional pattern of animus likely learned from your parents and finding a contemporary fuel for accepting and adopting their way of thinking. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2379
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:34 pm: | |
quote:No. I am happy to discuss with people that are willing to discuss, listen and give the issue some thought (such as TJ). I am well aware of how set PG is in his beliefs and responding will do no good.
And I know you are so open-minded Jt1. The point is that even if you can refute everything I said, which you can't, the result is the same. These are some of the reasons there is resentment.
Certain people want to know what other people are thinking and I provided that. Is it better to pretend that these issues don't exist? We should not be afraid to discuss controversial issues to gain a better understanding of others positions and pointing out negative things is not racist or hatred.
If that were the case I would have to assume that blacks who criticize me and other whites hated me, which I don't believe. |
Humanmachinery
Member
Username: Humanmachinery
Post Number: 83
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:35 pm: | |
I don't like Jesse Jackson now, but watch footage of him from the '60s and '70s. He used to be a brilliant leader and cultural force. Now he's just an unbearable showboat, and a self-parody.
Al Sharpton has provided a great deal of brilliant commentary and raised several poignant issues in the public sphere, but he also displays a horrendous lack of judgment. Anyone remember Tawana Brawley? What about the time when a black teenager was beaten to death, and Sharpton showed up outside the courthouse with a mob, declaring that "Not guilty verdicts would be telling us to burn down the city."
Yeah, that's constructive.
But I do realize that racism is still a factor in the US today, and that something needs to be done about it. I support affirmative action, though I also recognize that it's not perfect, and think it needs reform. I've met too many white guys who claim they couldn't get a job in their chosen field because they weren't from a racial minority.
I also believe the federal government should do more to streamline and promote efficiency in university scholarship funds for racial minorities. Affirmative action is an effective means here as well, and I found it horribly ironic that President Bush advocated its removal when he benefited from the Legacy Program at Yale.
Lastly, we have the most inflamatory issue: reparations. I cannot and will not support reparations for slavery. This would mean taking money not only white people paying for the enslavement of blacks (many of whom trace their ancestry to countries which had nothing to do with colonization), but also latinos, asians, and native Americans. It would penalize the majority of American citizens in the 21st century, for what a minority did in the 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.
Why didn't they do this 100 years ago? Because the people complicit in it were still engaged in a widespread campaign of discrimination and terror against the victims of slavery, and everyone else just wanted to make peace, pretend it never happened and move on. And that's supposed to make the debt go away? I'm not seeing it... It certainly changes the picture that we're no longer able to talk about direct compensation to victims or assess liability against individuals, but I don't see how the general social debt has been discharged.
It's striking how difficult things have been for blacks in the U.S. after emancipation and that there really has been no reckoning, no public accounting for the atrocity of slavery much less the suffering of Jim Crow, lynchings, and segregation. It's not enough to just say, 'well slavery was bad, sorry about that, and that's that'. It has been a long time since slavery, and that does make it seem weird to do this now, but doesn't that make it all the more problematic that we have still never had our Truth and Reconciliation Commission?
By just about any metric you care to look at, blacks are still far behind whites. If these efforts really had compensated for past injustices, I don't think that should be the case. Our responsibility is not to make a game effort then wash our hands of past injustice. The job is to actually remedy it. Maybe welfare and affirmative action are bad approaches. If that's the case, we need something better, not nothing.
I believe in the reality of "white entitlement." I see it every day. I do believe America was built upon implicitly racist political foundations, and that the structural legacy of that racism can still be seen and felt in the country today. But...
You can say this about many societies. Take our neighbors for instance. Mexico? Race relations between "whites" and mestizos/Indians are just as bad. Guatemala? They're worse. A little further south, say Brazil--now THERE'S a "black problem" that rivals ours! And those supposedly more enlightened Europeans have their race problems as well-including the Dutch, French, Germans and a host of others who like to give us grief about it all. Racism/ethnocentrism is an endemic part of the human experience. After a while I stop trying to decide whose record on race relations is worse; it's so ubiquitous that you almost have to go further and look at fundamental questions of human nature, sin, and man's inhumanity to man (which I do, for a living).
I'm reminded of the words of a wise man, NPR correspondent Juan Williams...
"It takes a leader to articulate why success in a world that so dramatically devalues black people is a worthwhile goal. When young people-and older people-take on a spirit of rebellion in their clothes, language, music, and other forms of expression, they're only responding in a fairly rational way to a society that has first insulted and degraded them. It takes a real leader to look beyond the immediate emotional satisfaction-and even the academic justification-of throwing up a middle finger in the face of the oppressor, and see the bigger picture. It takes a leader to think through the consequences and outline a better path-even if it requires sacrifice in the short term, sacrifice that may include giving up the easy emotional satisfaction of ultimately pointless acts, unexamined gestures of rebellion that never rise to the level of true resistance or long-term revolution. But that kind of leadership is sorely lacking.
Why have black leaders spent the last twenty years talking about reparations for slavery as if it were a realistic goal deserving of time and attention from black people? Why is rhetoric from our current core of civil rights leaders fixated on white racism instead of on the growing power of black Americans, now at an astounding level by any historical measure, to determine their own destiny? Fifty years after Brown, much of the power to address the problems facing black people is in black hands. Here is Bill Cosby at the very start of his famous speech:
'I heard a prizefight manager say to his fellow, who was losing badly, David, listen to me, it's not what he's doing to you. It's what you're not doing.'
Black Americans, including the poor, spend a lot of time talking about the same self-defeating behaviors that are holding back too many black people. This is no secret. It's practically a joke. And black people are the first to shake their heads at the scandals and antics of the current crop of civil rights leaders who are busy with old-school appeals for handouts instead of making maximum use of the power black people have in this generation to determine their own success.
So how did we end up in this situation? Black leaders have always risen to the occasion in the past, and in far more desperate situations-why does the talent bench seem so thin today? One key here is that nearly forty years after Reverend King's death, the best black talent don't have civil rights leadership as their chief ambition. Strong black intellects and personalities are leaders in media (Richard Parsons, the head of Time Warner, and Mark Whitaker, editor of Newsweek), securities firms (such as Stanley O'Neal of Merrill Lynch), global corporations (Kenneth Chenault of American Express, Ann Fudge of the public relations firm Young and Rubicam), academic institutions (Ruth Simmons, Kurt Schmoke, Henry Louis Gates, Ben Carson), religious organizations (Floyd Flake, T. D. Jakes), and national politics (Eleanor Holmes Norton, Artur Davis, Barack Obama, and Colin Powell). That leaves the civil rights leadership of today in older hands: the Jesse Jacksons and Julian Bonds, people who made a name for themselves in the 1960s. And they are still fighting the battles of the 1960s. Then there are the latecomers, such as Al Sharpton, whose contribution is to mimic the aging leaders. Neither the old-timers nor their pale imitators recognize that national politics has changed and black people have changed. Hell, white people, as well as Hispanics, Asians, and other immigrants, have changed. Yet the black leadership is fighting the old battles and sending the same signals even as poor black people are stuck in a rut and falling further behind in a global economy."
...I don't agree with everything he's said there. But it's an authoritative voice, and his own voice. It's a shame such voices don't get heard more often from the black community, or from any community.
I have a lot of of education in African American issues, and still today there are a lot of misinformation out there about the issues. I completely understand why some people feel the way they do about such things--having grown up around the same attitudes--so I bite my tongue.
This nation still today is a very racist one. With a little more understanding about why things are the way they are, we could end it for good.
(Message edited by humanmachinery on September 07, 2007)
(Message edited by humanmachinery on September 07, 2007) |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10042
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:37 pm: | |
PG - I am fine with people expressing their opinions but the issue lies with the fact that you trumpet specific stats but completely ignore the history and current situations that are causes to those. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1573
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:38 pm: | |
Man, Detroit sure has some long-winded people, lol. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2380
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:38 pm: | |
Accraghana -
I get the bit about circular reasoning but I never owned a slave and neither did my ancestors. I have not discriminated against anyone although I have been harassed by black folks. I don't hold the entire black community responsible though.
You seem to be justifying bad decisions and behavior today based on some past injustice inflicted on other people. This is not going to wash and unfortunately it still leads to a dead end.
If I steal a car nobody is going to care that my daddy died when I was 8 years old which he did. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10043
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:44 pm: | |
PG - When discussing race issues in the present day it does nothing for the discussion to personalize it.
You seem to be a proponent of personal responsibility (as am I0 but you ignore the inequalities in poor neighborhoods, the lack of opportunities which are the cause of racist plolicies of the past and current.
You are one that insists people should pull themselves up by their bootstraps. How do you do that when there are no jobs available in ones area, when that person has no access to reliable transportation.
For the crowd that believe in finding a job and working up I have challenged them to find a fast food place in the city that has a 'help wanted' sign. I idea that the opportunities are there for the taking is nonsense.
Add in the fact that there is still bias in hiring and minorities face a major disadvantage at 'pulling themselves up by the bootstraps' |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10044
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:47 pm: | |
We can also address factors such as:
Longer sentencing for similar crimes for minorities
Predatory lending practices and real estate agents steering certain colors to certain areas
Police harassment in many neighborhoods
There are even studies that show that black kids are treated differently and more harshly punished in predominately white schools.
The list goes on but the answer of too many is to deal with it or pull themselves up by their bootstraps. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2381
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:49 pm: | |
quote:completely ignore the history and current situations that are causes to those.
By that logic we should excuse white racism too because thats how all of us bumpkins were raised, we can't help it we are ignorant. I also said we could argue about the root causes, but the facts are what they are.
So yeah, I am sure discrimination plays a role in the plight of blacks but it is not the sole cause. It does seem to be the only cause that gets much discussion though. I don't think it helps when certain people are reinforcing the stereotypes either.
We have all had challenges and obstacles to overcome and nobody is saying they are the same thing but in the end it is up to the individual to make things happen. It isn't like there haven't been massive programs and initiatives to address these issues.
I was here when unemployment was in double digits I took a crummy job until something better came along. It can be done. If you are trying to tell me that people on government aid all go out every day and look for work than you will have to do a little more to prove that.
The fact is that unless you finish school and put off having kids until you can afford them you have put yourself in a position to fail.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on September 07, 2007) |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2382
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:53 pm: | |
quote:Police harassment in many neighborhoods
Really? I thought having a mostly black police force would solve this.
quote:Predatory lending practices and real estate agents steering certain colors to certain areas
People can buy houses wherever they want, how is the inner ring filling up with black folks who are leaving Detroit? My mortgage sucks too, no difference there.
quote:There are even studies that show that black kids are treated differently and more harshly punished in predominately white schools.
Really? I bet the kids in those schools are academically out-performing those in the inner city too. I have alot of friends from Detroit that got their asses kicked in the black schools too. They are not using that as an excuse to fail though. |
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