 
Humanmachinery
Member
Username: Humanmachinery
Post Number: 84
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:54 pm: |    |
I think there is something culturally and historically unique about the plight of African Americans in this country. If you look at almost every measure of attainment from economic, cultural, housing to educational, African Americans have had a great deal of trouble gaining these things. It not just laziness, there is something qualitatively different that contributes to this. If you look at the attainment of just about every immigrant or minority group, even Africans that immigrate to America, they are able to achieve more than African Americans. I think systematic and subtle racism still exists that contributes to this unique lack of achievement.
(Message edited by humanmachinery on September 07, 2007) |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10045
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:56 pm: | |
quote:So yeah, I am sure discrimination plays a role in the plight of blacks but it is not the sole cause. It does seem to be the only cause that gets much discussion though
True that it is not the only cause. The racism side gets much attention because the majority and people like yourself will point out other issues but conveniently turn a blind eye to racism. It is funny that you accuse blacks of doing the same thing you do, just with different subjects.
quote:I was here when unemployment was in double digits I took a crummy job until something better came along. It can be done.
Did you consider that your color may have afforded you that opportunity over potentially qualified black candidates. That is the issue with personalizing a larger issue.
quote:If you are trying to tell me that people on government aid all go out every day and look for work than you will have to do a little more to prove that.
That is one heck of a streotype. Did you know that more white people are on gov't aid? |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10046
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:58 pm: | |
See PG - You automatically dismiss every issue with specific instances.
Race will continue to be a problem until people like you stop insisting that there are no racial inequalitites in this country. |
Bratt
Member
Username: Bratt
Post Number: 623
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:59 pm: | |
You know what I find interesting? You hear many whites saying forget what happened in the past. Get over it. Let's move on. If that was the case, then why do they still teach history in school?
We teach history and what happened in the past, so that we do not let it happen again. So that we learn from it. So that we know where we came from.
You people must remember that it wasn't so long ago that blacks couldn't drink out of certain water fountains, or go to certain schools, or shop at certain stores, etc... My mother went through that and so much more.
There were ver, very few well to do black families then. Families who could pass inheritances on to generation to generation.
Sure, blacks can go to any college that they want to now and get an education. In my mother's generation, they could go, but many were not able to go. Many of the blacks then had to stay at home and work in the fields to help support their families. They had nothing.
So now you are looking at my generation. Yes I have a college degree. And yes, both of my older children are in college. And hopefully this will pass on from generation to generation. But the understanding that college is a must, just started with MY generation. We had to work to get here. It was not always this way. And you cannot expect everyone to be in the same place.
Then you want to talk about welfare, and how many black people are on welfare. To many, that is a way of life. This is passed on from generation to generation as the way of life as well. It takes time to get out of this frame of mind.
The struggles of Blacks wasn't that long ago people. What would help you understand more is to sit down with someone like my mother and talk to them about what they went through. Then you will understand that things are improving. But with anything, it just takes time. |
Accraghana
Member
Username: Accraghana
Post Number: 79
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 1:00 pm: | |
All I have to say is that when the National Economy hits the tanks (Depression within the next five years....or or War with Iran) People will not be talking all stuff about their being opportunities for anyone who wants its. When a lot of blacks are out of work......people attribute it to character flaws like laziness and irresponsibility. When a lot of whites are out of work.......its attributed to external factors related to the economy and interdependencies. People do not realize that whites live around much more economic opportunity than do blacks and have many more contacts to opportunities than do blacks. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2092
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:23 pm: | |
The only reason the majority of White people even acknowledge Racism is because it is either in the paper, the latest water cooler topic, or they are defending themselves for being white.
In most matters they just don't give two shits.
While we are also on the topic of what is racism. Remember that people are rude and classless today, do just because something happens to you by a person of another race does not mean it is racist, the person is just being the normal asshole they are to everyone.
Yes racism is not gone, but IMO it is growing everyday with events such as the chesterfield township incident. And not growing in the matters you think, but in the reverse. All these events actually strengthen their racist resolve. Because to them it proves what they have believed all along that blacks are trouble.
Another question should be why only blacks, do Hispanics suffer the same hate from whites, Oriental races from blacks.
(Message edited by _sj_ on September 07, 2007) |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 898
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:51 pm: | |
"If you look at the attainment of just about every immigrant or minority group, even Africans that immigrate to America, they are able to achieve more than African Americans. I think systematic and subtle racism still exists that contributes to this unique lack of achievement."
Funny, I have lived in many neighborhoods in Detroit and I've seen a lot. In Black neighborhoods, people are up most of the night. Lots of late-night television. Late-night beauty shops and grocery shopping. Either no reason to get up in the morning or a cultural preference for night versus day - I have no idea.
Now I live in a mostly Mexican neighborhood - covered with flowers. Starting at 5:00 AM, cars come down the street and toot in front of just about every house. Although its annoying to be wakened by the noise, I'm patient. From every house men emerge carrying coolers and they get into the cars and drive away - to the suburbs, I guess to do landscaping or construction. Then at 6:00 PM or so they straggle home and work some more on their houses, digging out a basement here, improving a porch there. On week-ends they work privately laying concrete or pavers for additional money. On Saturday and Sunday they have little quiet parties at night on the porch or in the back yard. The music is happy, family-friendly and pretty quiet. it stops early because they have to get up on Sunday mornings for church and on Monday for more work.
What do their wives do? It appears that they work at Dearborn Sausage or in a tortilla factory or they stay home in the little frame houses of the neighborhood and watch the children.
My point is that Detroit's Mexicans appear to have an extra-ordinary good work and family ethic that doesn't seem to be there in Black neighborhoods. The Mexicans who come here start out with nothing but in two generations they own a business and have a house in the suburbs. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10052
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 3:04 pm: | |
quote:Yes racism is not gone, but IMO it is growing everyday with events such as the chesterfield township incident. And not growing in the matters you think, but in the reverse. All these events actually strengthen their racist resolve. Because to them it proves what they have believed all along that blacks are trouble.
How so. The facts aren't out in this case. Are you assuming that the two women that may have been profiled and harrassed give people reason to think that blacks are trouble.
ONe hell of a stretch if I understand you properly. |
Accraghana
Member
Username: Accraghana
Post Number: 80
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 3:13 pm: | |
Southwest, I think it is abundantly and obviously clear what the distinction is between African Americans and all other immigrant groups….including Africans. Think about it. All immigrants groups have a strong foundational culture inherited from the land that the came from to build off of and onto. African Americans were stripped of their culture as a way of breaking them for slavery. The culture that we were allowed to observe was one of violent repression, oppression and denigration. While blacks were being abused and oppressed they were also being psychologically conditioned as socialization and enculturation is most profoundly born from EMULATION. So black people have no strong culture foundation like most immigrants who come to America. Blacks really don’t know who they are and have no strong African traditions to serve as a foundation for growth in America. Blacks are still trying to figure out what to call ourselves…….negroes, blacks, African Americans, Americans ect. No other group has such identity crisis because no other group has been so stripped and denied of their cultural heritage as blacks. To forsake ones traditional culture and heritage by choice is quite different from having ones culture and heritage stripped from them, including, culture, religion, names, customs and ones racial dignity. |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 899
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 3:23 pm: | |
I can see your points very well- you have made excellent and unarguable points. But, as an observer, and someone whose city life and future is very affected by how Detroit's Black residents do economically, educationally and socially, I do wonder: How long, Oh Lord, how long," how many generations until this community gets itself together?
And, I have to point out that Jews have the same issues: violent oppression, torn from their homelands, murdered, raped. Also, the Irish who arrived here on veritable "coffin ships" had the same issues. Think of the photos of the immigrants landing on Ellis Island: in rags, alone, sick, their names and history torn from them by political and economic oppression. I think what you describe can be replicated in many immigrant groups of the 19th and early 20th centuries. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1576
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 3:29 pm: | |
^Part of his point is that AA's aren't immigrants, and that if you look at black people who are immigrants, they tend to be doing better economically than AA's. Black immigrants are probably a group more analogous to immigrant Jews, Irish, etc., of the 19th and early 20th centuries.
A more analagous group to AA's would probably be Native Americans... Or the Australian aborigine.
(Message edited by iheartthed on September 07, 2007) |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2386
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 3:34 pm: | |
quote:People do not realize that whites live around much more economic opportunity than do blacks and have many more contacts to opportunities than do blacks.
So the economic opportunity was there and the whites moved near it? Businesses are started by people who then employ others which then causes more investment. It is not some abstract force in the universe that just appears wherever white people are.
Detroit used be the hub of much of this activity. The 67 riots started an exodus that continued for decades driving productive people out with high crime rates and crummy schools. Was there some racism at play? Sure. But lots of black folks left too.
Business will not re-invest on a large scale until the public safety issues are addressed and there is a supply of educated and willing workers.
quote:Did you consider that your color may have afforded you that opportunity over potentially qualified black candidates. That is the issue with personalizing a larger issue.
No, the job was at Northland Center. By then it was a majority black area and I had a black boss and most of my co-workers were black too. Great folks. I could have done without the gang fights and people trying to steal from me though.
quote:What would help you understand more is to sit down with someone like my mother and talk to them about what they went through.
I talked to my own mother. She was dirt poor during the Depression and her family was moving from house to house because they couldn't pay the rent. They worked their way out of it over time and never took a dime from the government because they never accepted the fact that they were poor. It is as much a state of mind as a financial hardship.
quote:You people must remember that it wasn't so long ago that blacks couldn't drink out of certain water fountains, or go to certain schools, or shop at certain stores, etc... My mother went through that and so much more.
I know about that and it was horrible. But unfortunately in some aspects blacks made more advances between the 40's and the 60's than they are today. There were alot of black-owned businesses, good black colleges and the family unit was more intact then which is key.
The Civil Rights Movement was a great thing but many of the programs that sprang out of it have caused a myriad of unintended consequences that have done more harm than good. Blacks have been told over and over again they are victims and it has destroyed the hope in the minds of some of them. It also has created a sense of entitlement and dependancy which is hard to break out of.
quote:If you look at the attainment of just about every immigrant or minority group, even Africans that immigrate to America, they are able to achieve more than African Americans. I think systematic and subtle racism still exists that contributes to this unique lack of achievement.
How can Africans immigrants out-perform African Americans if "systematic and subtle racism" is preventing blacks from achieving? Are you saying that the African immigrants are exempt from this racism? Hard to fathom. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2390
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 3:45 pm: | |
Accraghana -
I know what you are saying about being stripped of ones culture, but the cultural contributions from blacks in America have been huge. In the segregation era the black family was strong and moral values were stressed through their religion. How is it that those who were more oppressed did not have some of the problems that their children now face?
I think the Great Society Programs have done more to rob blacks of their identity and industry more than anything else. It put forth the notion that economic power and achievement in the Black community was based on making the majority feel guilty enough to set up welfare programs and affirmative action. As we have seen, this approach has not acheived the desired result. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10057
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 3:47 pm: | |
PG - While I still disagree with most of what you say I was wrong on the job assumption. My apologies. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2392
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 3:56 pm: | |
No prob Jt1, a good discussion overall. I hope that my remarks have not offended you. |
Accraghana
Member
Username: Accraghana
Post Number: 81
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:00 pm: | |
Southwest, Why did the Irish and Jews CHOOSE to come here……AND KEEP COMING? Contrarily to what is popular opinion, life in African for blacks was not hell. They would not have given up their lives in Africa, voluntarily, to be slaves in America. The Irish and the Jews came here of their own desires. I am sure letters were written back to Ireland about their treatment in America, but they kept coming anyway. Ireland may have been hell under Oliver Cromwell, the acts of England and the potato famine, but they were still catholic, they still had their names, they still knew what country they came from, and they still practiced Irish customs. That is not the same at all. Moreover, children were not separated and sold away from the parents and the like. In regards to the Jews, again, they are not living in a Nazi run Germany are they? If Germany had won the war…….what do you think the condition of Jews would be in Germany today? American is not the land of Jewish Oppression so the fact that they find success in America does not compare to the condition of blacks in America. If you want to compare any group……Native Americans would be the closest and guess what…..there situation of mucked up too. If a group situation is not mucked up in America relative to whites……then they did not have a comparable experience as blacks. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10060
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:18 pm: | |
quote:No prob Jt1, a good discussion overall. I hope that my remarks have not offended you.
Not at all. I may get worked up but conversation of differing opinions is a good first start. I would prefer people say what is on their mind as opposed to presenting one face in public and another in private. |
Accraghana
Member
Username: Accraghana
Post Number: 82
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:19 pm: | |
PG,
That is apples and Oranges. Black families wee more intact because they lived a rural existence and there were not crack cocaine, heroin and 3 hand guns for every person in the nation. Let us also not forget that white families used to be more intact than they are today as well. White rates of divorce, single parenthood and the like has also risen. So the fact that things have gotten worse in America for the family as an institution points to an AMERICAN CULTURAL decay and not simply a trend that manifest among blacks. Like any other social problem, it hits the most vulnerable the hardest. |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 901
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:25 pm: | |
But Jewish and Irish children were separated from their families - in the concentration camps, on the coffin ships, etc. There was tremendous pain and suffering in those ethnic groups and dysfunction, too.
I think you want to portray Black people as MUCH MORE tried by historical circumstances as an excuse for continued disfunction. Okay. But in my heart of hearts I think that, as a culture, Black people don't want to try as hard to overcome poverty, disfunction.
You bring up Native Americans- do you see them as noble and proud and accomplished before the oppressive Europeans got here and destroyed their cultures? I see that they had no science, no libraries, no universities, no cities, little or no written language, etc. They were hunter/gatherers into the 19th century! Perhaps, as a culture, Native Americans could not fit in with the rest of the world and, sad as it is, they continue in dysfunction whether on the reserve or in cities. History will show what Native Americans make of the opportunities and money that casino gaming have brought them. |
Accraghana
Member
Username: Accraghana
Post Number: 83
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:43 pm: | |
Southwest,
My point is simple. If a group has experienced in degree and or kind what blacks have experienced, then they would be in a very similar position as blacks……lest they somehow are genetically superior or something. I see absolutely no explanation, but the argument of racial superiority, why a group can go through what blacks have went through but are doing much better than blacks. Either their situations do not compare or they compare and they were able to do better due to their “Natural” superiority. Is the latter the point you are arguing?
I do not measure life by “things”, I measure it by happiness. Regardless of the lack of science and scholar among the Natives or Among the Africans, as I am sure you would argue as well, they were happier before the whites came than after the whites came. You can trout out all this science mumbo jumbo that Europeans created and advanced…..but it will be that same knowledge and science that ultimately destroys the planet through a Nuclear or biologically Engineered Holocaust or the destruction of the Environment. The natives lived as one with nature and there were happy until their freedom and land was taken from them to promote the growth of white people. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2393
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:53 pm: | |
Accraghana -
We would all be dead without the science mumbo jumbo. Science does not kill, people that misuse it kill. The Indians would have never been left alone to occupy a nation the size of the US with all of its natural resources. It was going to be settled by someone.
This nation or the world would never be able to sustain the numbers of people we have without science or using the methods the Indians used.
You seem to be saying that you wish that slavery never happened. If that were true you would probably not be alive or you would be in modern day Africa which is currently a nation of famine, hunger, war, genocide and disease.
Are you arguing that we should have left the planet in a primitive state? |
Bratt
Member
Username: Bratt
Post Number: 626
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:55 pm: | |
"I talked to my own mother. She was dirt poor during the Depression and her family was moving from house to house because they couldn't pay the rent. They worked their way out of it over time and never took a dime from the government because they never accepted the fact that they were poor. It is as much a state of mind as a financial hardship."
Your mom went through racial divide? Your mom was told she couldn't sit with white folks? Your mom was told that she wasn't as good as white folks? Your mom was told she couldn't drink out of the same water fountain as white folks?
I'm talking about sitting down with someone who experienced THAT. Not talking to someone who has been poor...we've all been through that. |
Bratt
Member
Username: Bratt
Post Number: 627
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:58 pm: | |
Oh, so you are saying that white people did blacks a favor by bringing them to the U.S. and making them slaves? Damn. The next white person I see, I am going to thank them for their ancestors who made us slaves.
Wow...did I just read that? |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2041
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:02 pm: | |
Bratt:
I don't think he's saying you owe anyone a thank you...he saying your situation would not be better than it is now had your ancestors not been brought the America against their will, and in fact, it would likely be far worse |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2394
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:07 pm: | |
quote:Damn. The next white person I see, I am going to thank them for their ancestors who made us slaves.
No, don't thank them and it was not a favor. It was a terrible thing. But the reality is most black Americans would not be here if it weren't for slavery. There were no people from Africa circumnavigating the globe and colonizing countries back then or since. |
Bratt
Member
Username: Bratt
Post Number: 628
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:07 pm: | |
How in the hell does he know what anybody's life would be like? Like he says in so many other posts....where are his facts?
Actually that's not the first time I have heard a white person say that.
Sorry, just venting.....didn't mean any harm. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2043
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:11 pm: | |
"How in the hell does he know what anybody's life would be like?"
It's a generalization...something about Africa being a godforsaken, war-torn, impoverished, diseased hell-hole of a continent... |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2395
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:17 pm: | |
quote:Sorry, just venting.....didn't mean any harm.
No problem, venting is good and is one of the main functions of this forum. Of course we have no way of knowing what someones life would be like but we can look at the history of Africa and see that it is a troubled place.
Yes some of that trouble came from earlier colonization efforts from Europe but today it is being run by Africans for the most part and is still facing enormous hardship despite trillions of dollars in foreign aid that has been spent over many decades.
I think you would find millions of Africans would be more than happy to come to the US given the chance, even with our troubled history relative to slavery. In fact slavery is still a grim reality in that part of the world to this day. |
Terryh
Member
Username: Terryh
Post Number: 498
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:32 pm: | |
As a reminder the US isnt the only destination for immigrants around the world. My exgirlfriend is Liberian and I got to know many Liberians who fled the country to escape the civil war. The majority I spoke to couldnt wait to return to their homeland. Then again I spoke to many who like the availbility of goods at affordable prices in the US. Many Africans, with the exception of Zimbaweans and South African paint a picture of relative peace and unity between blacks and white in their respective countries pointing out that there is less black-white divisions than in the US.
The US didnt become a world player overnight.Also isnt it possible, considering African countries histories,cultures religion etc.that a Western style economic system may not work in that part of the world. |
Accraghana
Member
Username: Accraghana
Post Number: 84
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 8:14 pm: | |
Wait just minute here perfect gentlemen. Lets look at history and the period of the Dark ages of European history. Show me the point in time in European history were the masses of whites had the type of standard of living that they do now? In the past, the white aristocracy and monarchies exploited the white masses. There was stark class stratification in European society between the landed and the landless. Europe had serfs and peasants, indentured servants, cities full of poverty and squalor, pestilence and disease, plagues and he like.
The typical standard of living of white people on this earth did not improve until maritime exploration lead then to non-white peoples land and labor. Prior to that a small elite group of whites prospered by oppressing the white masses. There was no “NET GAIN” to the white population even though there was a rich aristocracy. That aristocracy did not represent the norm for the white masses. It was not until white imperialism and colonization, through maritime exploration and militarism, were whites able to lift themselves up by others bootstraps. The capitalistic or pseudo capitalistic system that was driving wealth creation was LAND, LABOR and CAPITAL. In order for this system to expand in the agrarian era, it required an expansion of LAND and LABOR to create more wealth and capital. Europe had no more to offer and that is one of the main reasons that it was in the Dark Ages. Capitalism needs expansion or it becomes a zero sum game that locks people into a certain economic strata. You see where I am going with this PG?
The truth of the matter is thus that white, or Europeans, were the primary and true beneficiaries of white militarism, imperialism, colonization and slavery. You are trying to make it seem like blacks should be thankful for slavery, when it was your ancestors living in squalor and disease in the all white utopia that many have fantasized about. It was your ancestors who were the tired and huddled masses who yearned to be free from tyranny and oppression. It was your ancestors who arrived on Ellis Island with faces that looked like they had just come from hell. Remember…. whites were fleeing the all white world and finding opportunity in the world of non white people made possible to them by white militarism, imperialism and colonization and the disenfranchisement of others.
Do you know that Africans are the original Humans? That is what your scientist has concluded. So how long do you think black folks have been surviving without the help of white folks? Our survival has NEVER been dependent upon white folks…until after you robbed the nation of its resources and brought then under the control and profit of whites. You then decided to carve up Africa like a Pizza while white nations pick which piece would be theirs for the exploitation, drawing borders that totally ignored indigenous tribal boundaries. Oh….but this helped to facilitate the divide and conquer strategy of the white colonizers. By creating boundaries that forced traditional rivals into one nation ensured enough division and disunity among Africans to prevent them from rising together and stop the rapping of their land and resources by western interest. This is why there is so much conflict in Africa today. Its those borders drawn by Europeans for the purpose of Europeans. Why is their a conflict in the Middle East. Its because of the borders whites superimposed in the creation of Israel. Why did Iraq invade Kuwait? It was because of the borders drawn by European that denied Iraq part of it original territory. Most of the problems in the world can be linked to European meddling in the lives of other people.
So you can talk all this pompous and smug rhetoric about how black folks should be thankful…but its all BS. Black people did not need you. The Natives did not need you. If you go to a remote tribe in the Amazon…they don’t need you. They have survived thousands of years without you. They can’t miss what they don’t have and hence they are HAPPIER THAN YOU. Stop superimposing your value system and what is important to YOU upon others. That’s cultural supremacy 101. It is not until you take away peoples original means of survival and existence…that they then become dependent upon YOU and your system for survival. Yaw only did yourselves a favor by your exploitation…but it has been a net loss for the groups whose land and labor you exploited when measured in time. |
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