 
Number1
Member
Username: Number1
Post Number: 22
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 8:41 pm: |    |
Subtle racism can not explain the differences in achievement between Black Americans and African immigrants, simply because both groups belong to the same race. The only thing that can explain the differences in achievement between these two groups is culture. |
Yvette248
Member
Username: Yvette248
Post Number: 922
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 7:00 pm: | |
The major difference between blacks and other minorities, is that recent immigrants never had laws passed making them, what they own, and where they live deemed to be ILLEGAL. They never had laws passed AND WRITTEN INTO THE CONSTITUTION making it illegal for them to be free, own land, go to school, or to even read a damned book. They have never dealt with laws making it LEGAL for whites to own them, brutalize them and kill them. So of course they would have a whole different mindset.
After a hundred years of being subjected to the worse, most inhumane treatment imaginable, blacks are just supposed to "snap out of it" when they have never had this country say they are sorry for what they've done? That is the biggest pile of b.s. I've ever heard! If someone merely bumps you in the grocery store without apologizing, you'd be mad as hell.
That being said, I agree with the previous poster that the general knowledge that blacks can achieve, have equal rights and equal opportunities is a recent phenomenon - really within the last 20 or so years. Many blacks have already snapped out of it and are millionaires, entrepreneurs, doctors, politicians and just everyday, hard working citizens.
It is now time for the rest of us to realize that its a new day and stop making excuses for our own moral failures, laziness, and lack of human empathy.
(I now return you to your regularly scheduled program....)
(Message edited by yvette248 on September 08, 2007) |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 100
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 7:36 pm: | |
I wonder what the US would be like if there weren't African's taken and used for labor. What would Africa be like as well. Hard to tell. |
Bratt
Member
Username: Bratt
Post Number: 629
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 8:10 pm: | |
Well Lefty.... I would like to know as well. Because everyone knows...African Americans discovered alot of every day things we use today. Others just took credit for it. They would probably still be trying to figure it out. |
Purplecharm
Member
Username: Purplecharm
Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 8:15 pm: | |
Thanks Accraghana for your eloquent post. You speak the truth and the truth needs to be heard. The arrogance spewed by people like PG is sickening, but I give him credit showing his white superiority colors. He's only saying what a lot of white people think. |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 237
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 10:03 pm: | |
Good Evening all
Accraghana-excellent posts, dangerously intelligent truths.
Perfectgentleman-honest posts
PG and I have tossed the ball around on another thread and I have to say that whether you agree with him or not, I think he is more honest about what the average white american thinks but is afraid to say.
As simple as I can put it.
I think that the middle class white americans who have "achieved" everything through hard work may have over looked one small fact.
Help me out here Accraghana...
Those oppressed white that came from the "oppressed" class of whites under the aristocracies of Europe are more or less the class between the classes. The ruling class is still the ruling class. As capitalism must spread in order to function, those members of the aristocracy were the primary and true beneficiaries of white militarism, imperialism, colonization and slavery. The secondary beneficiaries were what has become the white middle class today.
They are the ones who have become the police and judges and managers of the society that was set up by the ruling class. The ruling class always reap the larger profits but they compensate those who work for them(middle class) especially when the peasant class will doing the actual labor to fuel the system.
I think there are many white middle classers who do not know that they are being controlled in many ways. I mean if a cop realized with all his pride that he was trained to only keep a group of poor people in check...he might actually wonder what the hell is really going on.
The truth is...he (the cop) is only there to keep the rich from being robbed. He is the "hired gun" of the upper, upper class. The bank manager is controlled by the elite. The Prosecuting Attorney is all part of the system to keep the structure intact. To keep the existence of an underclass.
The truth is because the white middle class is not doing bad for a "house Ni!@#$" ...how would they really see racism? Even what they can see does not affect them they way it would affect the poor class black or white. It is the Elite who gave you your pride by designing a system and allowing you to hold the position that you hold (You think that it is your efforts that have gotten you where you are). You are here for the purpose of controlling the sub-underclass while you yourself are controlled. You do not even realize that you are doing it in a lot of cases. The whole concept of racism is in and of itself just another "tool" to divide and conquer people not by color but by class. Color distinguishes us, class separates us. Think about it, you all are the frontline in the defense of the status quo and most of you do not know why it is like it is...you think that the system you so adore is free and just, so you cling to it. You never stop to think about the fact that, as Accraghana pointed out, you are a member of the group that was oppressed and you have been allowed to be in the position you are in. The explorations of non-white countries were financed not by your class of people but by the ruling class and that is when you began to prosper but for the GREATER benefit of the ruling class. What you have, was given to you by them...and they could take it back at anytime. They give you enough to have dignity and pride to make you think that you are good upstanding citizens and they leave the differences of race to you to deal with while you bring profits to them on a regular basis.
Almost like a pimp.
You do not think about what is really going on because you are pretty comfortable and have no reason to question the system...it has been good to you.
Like the master was good to his "house Ni#$%^".
(Message edited by Kaptansolo on September 08, 2007) |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 368
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 11:19 pm: | |
This bears repeating, very well said:
So you can talk all this pompous and smug rhetoric about how black folks should be thankful…but its all BS. Black people did not need you. The Natives did not need you. If you go to a remote tribe in the Amazon…they don’t need you. They have survived thousands of years without you. They can’t miss what they don’t have and hence they are HAPPIER THAN YOU. Stop superimposing your value system and what is important to YOU upon others. That’s cultural supremacy 101. It is not until you take away peoples original means of survival and existence…that they then become dependent upon YOU and your system for survival. Yaw only did yourselves a favor by your exploitation…but it has been a net loss for the groups whose land and labor you exploited when measured in time. Thanks, Accraghana! |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2421
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 11:23 pm: | |
quote:Thanks Accraghana for your eloquent post. You speak the truth and the truth needs to be heard. The arrogance spewed by people like PG is sickening, but I give him credit showing his white superiority colors. He's only saying what a lot of white people think.
Thats funny. I cite factual information (undisputed) to explain some of the reasons there is resentment toward blacks and I am called arrogant. Accraghana basically says that every bad thing that has happened in human history is the fault of white Europeans and that is "eloquent."
Accraghana -
Well it seems you have it all figured out. Modern life sucks, technology sucks, and Europeans caused all of the misery in the world. I guess that begs the question, why would you want to live in a society created by your oppressors that you seem to hate? I am sure you could emigrate to Africa or some other 3rd world nation and leave this horrible society behind.
I never said that black people should be "grateful for slavery," in fact I said the opposite. As far as "black people not needing me," why are we spending billions of tax dollars trying to help the black community and then are constantly told we aren't doing enough if help is not needed?
The bottom line is the salvation of black folks is not in the hands of those you claim have oppressed them. There is nothing I or anyone else can do to change their lives in the long term. We cannot make people stay in school, stay away from drugs and/or crime and stop having kids they do not want and cannot support.
In a free society only those people can change their behavior and make decisions that will better their situation. Those values need to come from within the community and the family unit. Despite what you may think, America is a great country that provides opportunity for all. That is why people come here from all over the world and overcome language barriers, hardship and yes even racism to prosper which they have done so from the beginning.
Millions of black folks have succeeded as well but they did so by their own initiative and hard work which is the only way. So I understand that you feel blacks have a historical grievance but unfortunately that doesn't change the equation in the end.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on September 08, 2007) |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 576
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 12:22 am: | |
I'm laughing so hard right now.
African Americans are from a degenerate culture? Immigrant groups are from superior cultures? If that is so, then why did they immigrate? Why did they not remain within the purity of their superior culture?
Someday, justice will be done, and 500 years of the Western domination of the globe will be judged by our descendants. The West has brought us technological wonders galore. The West has also brought to every corner of earth a number of unpleasant things, including global warming. (And in order to be more like the west, the "rest" are industrializing.) When the oceans rise 20 feet, and the globe warms 7-11 degrees by 2100, the epilogue of Western civilization will be written. Those to come will write of its wonders... and its horrors too.
Many thousands of years from now, when the whole of humanity blends together (and looks vaguely Latino), they will look at the phenomenon of racism and white privilege with the same bewilderment that we regard burying servants alive, ritual cannibalism, impaling people on stakes, and throwing gladiators and Christians to the lions. And their far-distant descendants will consider the people of our day to be as barbaric as we consider pre-civilized man.
This is not my wishful thinking. This is demographic inevitability. This is scientific fact. At the juncture of the two will be the justice that millions upon millions prayed for. Those who leapt from the slave ships, whose bones rest at the bottom of the sea. Those who danced the Ghost Dance on the Great Plains, who fell at Wounded Knee, who died on the Trail of Tears. Those who perished in the opium dens of China, in the ovens of Auschwitz, in the massacres of Rwanda... they will receive justice on that great and terrible day when the last descendant of the West has been fully blended into the DNA of the rest of humanity that they so despised and thought was beneath them.
The real crime against humanity is not racism. It is the unwise domination of the West, upsetting the ages-long balance that each group had achieved for tens of thousands of years in their own corners of the globe. A very wise futurist (who happens to be white, although that shouldn't matter) pointed out recently that globalization makes humanity MUCH more vulnerable to extinction. Human cultural diversity means that if one way of life is threatened, then we can more readily adapt to another. The Western lifestyle that everyone reading this message, and the woman typing it, are accustomed to, is not going to be sustainable beyond perhaps the next 50 years (an optimistic estimate.)
Within the next century, the sphere of influence will shift from West to East, and from North to South. Today, English is the most valuable language to know. But your great-great-grandchildren will speak Spanish, Mandarin Chinese, and perhaps a little Arabic. If you are white, they will very likely have a spouse of color, if they are not multiracial themselves.
Time will tell what the legacy of their future hegemony will be. While writing about the age of the West, future historians very well may borrow a famous opening line from one of its best authors...
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2426
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 12:45 am: | |
English -
So I guess you are also saying that "the West" is responsible for all of the horrible things in the world as well? It is hard to tell but if so that is absurd. Slavery, oppression, war and genocide have occurred in every corner of the earth and in almost every ethnic group since the beginning of civilization. In the modern world, the west has been the most reliable OPPONENT of these things.
In fact, one could argue that it is NON-WESTERN nations where most of these plagues are occurring today. It was western culture that produced the United States Constitution and the Liberal Democracies of Europe. They are not perfect of course but at least we have liberty, justice and hope. Not the case in large parts of Asia, Africa and the Middle East so lets stop this revisionist nonsense.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on September 09, 2007) |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 577
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 1:05 am: | |
Perfectgentleman:
I'm not angry with you, m'dear. I find you too amusing.
Times like this, I wish we had a time capsule. Let's reprise this conversation in 2107, when your United States is another Latin American nation and your Liberal Democracies are Eurabia.
My name, English, comes from my master's degree. My concentration was nineteenth-century British literature and history. I've studied imperialism, colonialism, and postcolonial theory, and published scholarship in this area. "The Empire Strikes Back", so to speak. *cracking up*
England 100 years ago was the mightiest land empire in human history. But the veneer of English civilization was rotten not only at the periphery, but at the core. Victorian England was just as brutal to its own poor citizens and the unfortunate Celtics it liked to kick around its isles as it was to any Indian or African. Now the young descendants of those poor unfortunate Irish and Liverpudlians are procreating with the descendants of those poor unfortunate Indians and Africans. Expect to see a great deal more of that in the future.
The core of Western civilization is not liberty, justice, and hope for all. It is liberty, justice, and hope for some. The foundation of Western civilization has its roots in ancient Greece. Democracy, or rule of the people, only seemed to have been practiced in societies where vast sections of the populace are excluded from being "people". In ancient Attica, slaves, "barbarians", and women were not "people" in any democratic sense. So it was throughout the West until very, very recently.
I don't see the world in terms of black and white, or right and wrong. I see the world in terms of human ecosocial systems that work, human ecosocial systems that don't, and human ecosocial systems that once worked but no longer do. Western civilization worked well as an ecosocial system in modernity (1492-1945). It only works when women, ex-barbarians, and ex-slaves have no say in its societal structures, because it was not designed for us to have any say. Now we do, and now it is fundamentally unstable. I expect the tipping point to occur any day now. And we will be just as blind to it as we were to 9/11 (demographic shifts) and Katrina (global warming).
Humanity will survive, but neither black nor white will win. That is because contrary to popular belief in the West, the fate of our species is not a GAME. There are no winners nor losers, just survivors and casualities, and what the next generation learns (if it is wise) from the follies of the past.
People under 25 have the right idea anyway. They're marrying across all barriers of race, religion, class, and orientation. So this conversation won't even occur in a couple hundred years, because there won't be enough people of solely European descent to tout the virtues of a continent that is mostly Muslim. Guess who wins the Crusades in the end? :-) |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 240
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 1:06 am: | |
Ok PG
Let me ask you.
Do you really feel that assimilation will work? I mean I do not disagree with you totally. I am sure that you know my stance when it comes to these issues you speak of have to come to an end. Drug abuse, unplanned pregnancies and so forth. You are also aware that the billions of dollars you speak of is a "lump sum of cash" that you and I both agree will pacify but not repair. No one will get rich.
In order to prosper there has to be jobs that pay decent.
In my thoughts about white people I realized today that white people were not as "hopeless" as black people when they were oppressed.
Perhaps you wonder what I am talking about. I was thinking today about the "violent" riots when the U.A.W. was being organized. When you get down to it...the entire "riot" was about nothing more than white people feeling that the "wealth" was not being distributed fairly. It was about money, the medium of exchange used in this country for trade.
You and I have discussed some of these views and though we do not agree on everything we did agree on some.
The truth is PG that if black people waited until they were able to "afford" everything the "right" way they would become extinct.
The white man knew that he was not making enough money to live, reproduce and provide for what he created...so he fought. There was anger, violence and bloodshed.
I think black people know there is not much sense in trying to start a riot demanding high wages from any corporation. I am not suggesting that the riots of the 60's were about wages either. I am just saying that I think that the things that worked for white people when they bucked the status quo will not necessarily work today.
Assimilation is difficult, we discussed this a few days ago, but the problem is not just from blacks but also whites.
How does a person trying to "fit in" deal with this...
in 18th- and 19th century Euro-America, Genesis 9:18-27 became the curse of Ham, a foundation myth for collective degradation, conventionally trotted out as God's reason for condemning generations of dark-skinned peoples from Africa to slavery.
It makes it somewhat difficult for a person of color to trust the system, even the bible in some cases knowing that it was used as an instrument used to control the minds of slaves.
In some ways when you look around at what is going on in the black community, take a look at what happens with in it's "christian" churches. Churches that offer "words" but not much action. No real solutions because none of this can be fixed with "words".
White men rioted and "won" the higher wages that put food on the table and provided much needed insurance for their families.
Black Pastor's tell their flocks, everything is going to be ok as long as you believe. Relax, stay calm and remove bitterness and everything will be ok.
White men removed no bitterness, they used it and fought to get what they wanted. Because they knew those corporations were not going to just share it with them so easily.
So I ask, do you really think that white people really want that much color living right next door. I mean the culture will not be exactly the same. Would you really want your offspring to take personal romantic interest in a people who have recently arrived when they are the former underclass?
I do not think that you are the sole cause of this problem. I believe that you caught in a mess that nobody planned for.
I really think the reason that racism exists is because this country was not intended to ever have equal integration. it's not your fault. It's not my fault.
A child who is spoiled with privileges is not going to give them up just because he comes across other children who do not have the same privileges.
White people are not just going to suddenly share what they have no matter how much others work to achieve it because there is simply not enough to go around.
Like I said in my above post, this was a system that was set up for white people to be the beneficiaries. It was never meant to be equal. That is not your fault. But it is not ours either. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2428
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 1:48 am: | |
English -
I never asked for your resume but I assumed you were a college educated person given your air of superiority.  I am glad you are amused by my remarks. At any rate, of course we have had oppression, war and crimes against humanity in the past. These unfortunate events are not exclusive to western people, but are a condition of (in)humanity in general which continues today. They are occurring in mostly non-western nations and cultures however, a fact you conveniently ignored.
I find that much of this thread is littered with references to events that occurred 100’s of years ago with the implication that no progress has been made since then which of course we all know is not the case. There also seems to be some veiled justification being made by you for attacks against western society due to our supposed oppression of others. If you think you are oppressed now my dear, try living under Sharia law in an Islamic state and then you will know what that word really means. Don’t take my word for it, ask the women who have escaped to the west and are very grateful for that fact.
You seem to take great satisfaction in the demographic demise of western culture, we will see if what takes its place is better or worse. Personally I would rather live under our flawed system than that of Communist China or a Muslim Caliphate but that is just me. I guess my final question to you is if Western society is so terrible, why has it thrived all of this time and why are so many millions around the world flocking to it?
Kaptansolo –
We can have assimilation without subordination. Trust me, all of us have to assimilate to one degree or another. I don’t make the rules for American society nor do most every day folks. But to answer your question yes, assimilation has been working for decades and is essential to our continued success.
I agree we need good-paying jobs and I have been arguing for reforms related to our trade policies which have done damage to working class folks in this country. We also need to be able to take advantage of opportunities when they do come and that is where a strong work ethic, staying in school and staying out of trouble comes in. Even with the losses in the manufacturing sector, there is demand for people in other areas like technology.
The labor struggles you refer to were a result of some of the frustrations of the working class and I think the racial strife has elements of that too. I had not thought of that of them in that way before so that is a good point. That is not to excuse violent riots in either case.
I think unions have also been a contributor in recent years to some of our economic problems too. They were needed at the time they were formed but since then they have made US industries non-competitive in many respects. That is not to say I wish to compete with China and Mexico at their wage levels though.
I am not obsessed with what class a person is in related to who my kids socialize with. I don’t consider myself upper-class so maybe that is why. I am not going to lie and say I wouldn’t be a little startled if my daughter came home with “someone of color,” I think its just how we are wired.
I remember I worked in retail with a black girl when I was younger and we kind of had a crush on each other and one day she brought her dad in to meet me and he sure gave me a stern look let me tell you! I understand that there are trust issues between all people.
One of the issues I think that divides us is that I feel sometimes I must be overly careful around minority folks because I am concerned I might say something that will offend them. I can only imagine if I ran into Accraghana somewhere, I think that would be a unique experience. Sometimes this causes people to isolate from one another which eventually breeds mistrust and racism.
In closing I would say that I don’t think it is a zero sum game. I don’t believe that in order for one person to prosper it needs to be at the expense of someone else. I think in America it would be better if we were all prospering. Imagine if Detroit was flourishing, it would be better for all of us in the area, including the suburbs.
I would also say there are plenty of black folks who have prospered and moved out of Detroit, are they unwilling to share the wealth with the folks they left behind? I don’t think so, but I know a city cannot survive without a thriving middle class. Chicago is another mid-western city like ours who also experienced riots and challenges but somehow it managed to keep much of the middle class in the city.
Granted they have a more diverse economy but how were they able to achieve that and we were not? I am sure the libs would say it is because they have mass-transit!
Getting too long-winded here.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on September 09, 2007) |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 241
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 8:12 am: | |
In the case of Detroit and Chicago, Detroit had a one commodity economy. I don't think we can compare it to other large cities because of that factor. Let's compare it to other rust belt cities.
Youngstown, Ohio
Pittsburgh, PA
Gary, IN
Dayton, OH
These cities are not doing much better than Detroit. They were very much like Detroit...auto industry, blue collar towns.
I will concede that perhaps the unions did screw some things up in later years but we need "whatever" the replacement is.
I have to laugh a little at your statement...
"That is not to say I wish to compete with China and Mexico at their wage levels though"
Neither would I...and I think this is what I mean when I say there certain things that "we" Americans feel are just suppose to be that way. Livable wages. I want their wages to come up too. There are some conservatives who will feel that what we are saying now is "handout" or "entitlement" mentality.
"I don’t believe that in order for one person to prosper it needs to be at the expense of someone else."
Think about it, that is what the majority of white "hate" groups are really pissed off with about. They are mad at the government because they feel they have given this country to all of these "other" people. The jobs being opened up and shared. There were only so many.
If you built the country with a region that uses slave labor and you free that race then there will be one huge problem.
You really will not know what to do with a group of freed slaves. You never imagined them being your equal. They were the "underclass".
(Message edited by Kaptansolo on September 09, 2007) |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2621
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 11:39 am: | |
Pittsburgh and Dayton are both doing much better than Detroit_ but they are both much smaller cities and in the case of Dayton not really a rust belt city.
English I sense a bit of schadenfreude from your contributions on this thread.But I suppose that is irrelevant because I believe you are keenly accurate on your observations. Younger people are ignoring the sexual racial barriers and marrying across races. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2433
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 11:45 am: | |
I guess what I am saying is that it doesn't have to be a zero sum game. But I think it is unwise to allow millions of illegal immigrants to compete with many of the folks that are/were doing manual labor jobs that have gone offshore. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2436
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 1:04 pm: | |
I think as many of us are disparaging and actively working to discredit and dismantle Western society we should take note of those that are far more culturally assertive that are ready and willing to fill the void.
Here are a few of the options that are on the march throughout the world that do not seem to have our penchant for defeatism:
Radical Islam - Currently we see war, oppression of women and non Muslims, genocide, terrorism, illiteracy, sectarian strife, totalitarianism, poverty, disease and very primitive cultures.
Communism - A lack of representative governments, oppression, censorship and poverty. China is on the move and Russia is returning to its Cold War ways by rolling back Democratic reforms by the day.
Then we have many third world nations who cannot support their large populations and are exporting their poor to Western nations in such large numbers that they are failing to assimilate. This is creating small balkanized communities where the language and culture is that of their former country. Miami, LA and Dearborn to name a few in this country.
This kind of activity is not unifying our country as the multi-culti crowd would have us believe and it is not because of the racist hicks out in the suburbs who supposedly don't like "brown people." Even left-leaning researchers are recognizing this problem, the distrust is coming from all sides and all political and socio-economic groups.
So while English celebrates the demise of the West, we should all be aware that it doesn't necessarily mean the world will be a better place without it.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on September 09, 2007) |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 381
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 1:14 pm: | |
I think as many of us are disparaging and actively working to discredit and dismantle Western society we should take note of those that are far more culturally assertive that are ready and willing to fill the void.
I don't see that describing something as it is, necessarily means one is disparaging it and trying to dismantle it. If you are going to have to work with something, it is just smart to learn what it is that drives it, and where the advantages lie so you can learn to exploit them for yourself. History is -- White Male Landowners founded the country and built its systems to benefit life as they knew it. One cannot fault them for it, but one cannot ignore the general privilege it bestows on people who fit the accepted profile. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2438
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 1:48 pm: | |
quote:I don't see that describing something as it is, necessarily means one is disparaging it and trying to dismantle it
I disagree, there are people in this country that are actively working to tear down our traditions and values and they are unfortunately succeeding in many cases. Many that post on this forum would fit that description in fact.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on September 09, 2007) |
Accraghana
Member
Username: Accraghana
Post Number: 89
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 2:51 pm: | |
PG please save your embellishment of my points, in order to create your straw man argument, for the crows. If you seek clarification of what I was attempting to communicate, please ask but don’t assume you can speak for me.
Why do I stay in this country? Well…. besides the fact that my ancestors contributed to its creation and viability, its often quietest in the eye of the storm. If I leave the eye of the storm, I may very well be battered by the destructive winds that surround the eye. Its painfully clear from recent events that if a nation does not support the interest of the powerful nations that the winds of the eye will be unleashed upon then. So there is really no safe haven. However, be that as it may, I am making long term investments in Africa and hopefully one day I can retire there.
The reason that some black people need you is because in the past some white people needed blacks. Actions produce reaction. Like Colin Powel told Bush before he invaded Iraq: “If you break it…. you own (the responsibility) it”. Well…when America decided to create laws that specifically identified black people for a particular and acute form of oppression…it broke it (blacks) and hence now it owns (the responsibility) for it (its repair). So that is why your, as well as my, tax dollars should theoretically be going to reconciliation/repair programs…. but they are not. Your and my tax dollars go to programs and policies that are really so general…that they fail to fix or repair any specific problems. That is akin to giving everyone who is sick antibiotics. Well…what if your specific disease is diabetes? Well…you cannot target treatment because that is then “discrimination”. It does not matter that blacks were screwed for centuries…. any attempt to identify the screwed and unscrew them is discrimination (in reverse).
I never said that the salvation of black folks is in the hands of the people who oppressed them. All I noted was cause and effect and actions and reaction. I would argue that if an entity broke something…. the entity is liable for repairs. It’s hard to argue that American did not facilitate, via its laws, the breaking of black people. Hence, even though I have no expectation of America fulfilling its responsibility…nevertheless I still recognize it as Americas responsibility….a responsibility that citizens inherit as the price of citizenship. Heck, when the government decided to bail out the Savings and Loan industry, to the tune of trillions of dollars, you and I both have to pay for it…. regardless of our participation in the fiasco.
Well….the challenge for black America is that unlike the majority white population….we cannot pass laws that cater/represent our mainstream interest and concerns. The way this representative republic works is via majority rule. Whites are 70% of the population, thus, whatever becomes the consensus among gets represented and bills and laws are passed that are essentially derived from white interest (ignoring the power of lobbyist…most of whom are also white). So white people, as a block, essentially have the power to shape America the way it wants it.
Black people have no such control over our destiny because we do not have the leverage to create policy and laws based upon the consensus of the black community. We live under a tyranny of the majority in affect as the majority just assumes that what they need and what is most important to them is good enough for us…or should be. I would venture to guess that if the homicide rate among whites were that of what it is for blacks, gun and all sorts of other laws would be different, in an effort to reduce the carnage. There are a lot of things that are not unique to the black community in kind…. but are unique in degree, such as rates of homicide. However, since whites don’t face the problem to the same degree…they don’t seek changes in policies and laws that could help reduce, if not eliminate the problem. Consequently, blacks don’t have the ability to cultural and socially engineer their communities, through polices and laws, likes whites do. In essence we suffer from what caused the American Revolution against the British…taxation and no representation. However in our case its taxation and under-representation…because we have representatives…but so few relative to the big picture that they are impotent affect change for our community.
Sorry for being long winded
(Message edited by accraghana on September 09, 2007) |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 246
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 2:54 pm: | |
I do agree that there are people who are trying to tear this country apart.
PG is correct about the number and velocity of immigrants coming into and the fact that there is absolutely no assimilation. The language and culture stay the same as where they came from.
I started learning to speak Spanish 4 months after I moved to New York City.
From a personal standpoint, I like the diversity. Learning about other cultures, foods and what have you. ...and the women are beautiful too.
Unfortunately those little insignificant things I just mentioned are offset by other liabilities like the fact this new group of people become a new sub-class and create a golden opportunity for companies to lower their wages because there is a sudden surplus of cheap labor.
I would say that the incredible invasion of immigrants is not the results of Native Americans, blacks or whites in the middle to lower classes...it is the result of those who could profit from such an invasion. Large corporations, the elite and the government. The funny thing is the government does not actually "profit" from the cheap labor. They profit from the pay-offs from the elite and large corporations who want them to allow the cheap labor force to stay.
Citylover-I thought Dayton was a GM, Harrison Radiator, National Cash Register town?
GM is messed up there with it's delco/delphi joke. NCR is gone. Mead is there, but they do no manufacturing there (I am not sure on this one)???
I thought it was a rust belt city. I used Pittsburgh because US Steel is no longer booming there as it once was.
I might be a little bit behind the times. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2440
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 3:11 pm: | |
Accraghana - If you broke it you buy it. Thats true but there have been massive to correct the injustice done to black folks starting with Civil War, the Civil rights movement, the Great Society programs, affirmative action to name a few.
The history of most ethnic groups are different, most have been oppressed or abused at some point in their history, you make the case that the black experience is more recent and severe and therefore should warrant special consideration over and above that of others. Fair enough but I would argue that has been acknowledged and attempts have been made to make things right.
I guess the thing that confuses some of us is that others have overcome hardship and racism and haven't asked for or received any special consideration yet have done pretty well for themselves. Singling out the black community for special consideration seems to reinforce victimhood and works to reinforce the perceived inferiority that you are railing against.
You act as if social problems like high crime rates are some sort of disease that infects certain communities and are unrelated to the actions of those within that community. I can't agree with that because although poverty exacerbates the crime problem, the people that are committing these acts also have free will and must be held responsible.
There are many areas in the country where incomes are low yet the crime rate is not out of control. When people were homeless and hungry during the Depression they didn't necessarily go out and start robbing people, that is not to say it didn't happen.
You could have the entire federal government run by minorities and it wouldn't end the plight of the inner cities. You seem to think that government is rigging the system in favor of people like me. Trust me when I tell you that I am sending them alot more of my hard-earned money than I am getting in return. Illegal aliens have no representation whatsoever in government yet everyone is bragging about how good they are doing and how hard they work.
Virtually every aspect of Detroit city government is majority black yet it has not stopped the decline.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on September 09, 2007) |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 247
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 3:15 pm: | |
PG-I also forgot to comment on this
"Then we have many third world nations who cannot support their large populations and are exporting their poor to Western nations in such large numbers that they are failing to assimilate. This is creating small balkanized communities where the language and culture is that of their former country. Miami, LA and Dearborn to name a few in this country.
This kind of activity is not unifying our country as the multi-culti crowd would have us believe and it is not because of the racist hicks out in the suburbs who supposedly don't like "brown people." Even left-leaning researchers are recognizing this problem, the distrust is coming from all sides and all political and socio-economic groups."
This is the basis for my views on the country was never meant for everybody. The reason you want immigrants to follow the law for entrance is as I stated, there is only so much to go around and other groups will soak up the gravy. You have also decided inadvertently who should be able to feed on the gravy in this by stating that they should follow the law. The law in this case is for your advantage, not theirs.
You do not need to defend yourself on this, I have said that this country was not set up for minorities to prosper. I also know that you were not around when they were setting it up.
Accraghana is well aware and so am I that the reason you are experiencing some of the "fear" of the country being dismantles is because you "the middle class white man" is also an object or a tool in a much larger theater. You are here as an example of what "America" is all about. Good ole working class folk who work hard and get ahead. You are the advertisement for the elite class who profit from the differences of the lower classes. Those blacks and others who assimilate to fit in become part of this enormous scheme. I have said white Aryan groups are mad primarily at the government because now after 232 years they are finding out that the government of white men is not even on their side. This country was not even created for you to prosper, it was created to exploit poor people and you are nothing more than stewards of that vision. Like I said...much like house ni@#$%* in the south during slavery. You are no different, but as this trend continues...you will find that the way of life that you are so proud of will become something that only the elite are going to be able to participate in.
You know that there is something wrong. Something is terribly wrong and it is not unplanned pregnancies or trash in someone's yard...it is much bigger than that. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 105
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 3:22 pm: | |
What's wrong? Not unplanned pregnancies, not trash in one's yard? Then what is IT?
By the way; politicians who want to increase taxes and trade gov't subsidies for votes, do not want working class people to get ahead! |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 248
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 3:24 pm: | |
But PG I thought that you agreed with me that while the crimes, babies having babies and other negatives could stop...that would still not mean that there were jobs that as I pointed out white men rioted violently to not only have but to increase the wages and benefits and force the hand of the corporations to share the wealth.
What difference does it make who is in local government without the jobs.
I know you don't have an answer and neither do I. A return of high paying livable jobs is what is needed.
If none of the negatives existed...all you could say is..."they are good people I just wish there were some jobs for them that paid decently." "But there are none...so they will just have to work at McDonald's until something comes along better. They will just have to do service jobs for us because they are the underclass...it's not fault..that is just the way it is." |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 2441
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 3:25 pm: | |
I was never a slave owner nor were my ancestors. I didn't come from a privileged background nor did millions of others who prosper in this country including black folks. I am not sure who programmed you to believe that working class whites have some special advantage but that is not the case. We have alot of the same problems of minorities but no to the same degree.
I did acknowledge that flooding the country with workers at the lower wage levels is harmful to Americans at that level which is why I think we need to control the border.
I have no problems with other cultures but if I see negative aspects of some of them I will point it out just as minority folks are more than happy to point out the shortcomings of the "white majority" on a daily basis.
quote:I have said that this country was not set up for minorities to prosper.
If that is true than why are some minorities prospering? How are people that come here with nothing, do not speak the language, and have NO representation in government at all finding work and are creating these wonderful little enclaves in Southwest Detroit. It is because there is opportunity for all in America, but you have to go out after it. |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 249
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 3:25 pm: | |
But PG I thought that you agreed with me that while the crimes, babies having babies and other negatives could stop...that would still not mean that there were jobs that as I pointed out white men rioted violently to not only have but to increase the wages and benefits and force the hand of the corporations to share the wealth.
What difference does it make who is in local government without the jobs.
I know you don't have an answer and neither do I. A return of high paying livable jobs is what is needed.
If none of the negatives existed...all you could say is..."they are good people I just wish there were some jobs for them that paid decently." "But there are none...so they will just have to work at McDonald's until something comes along better. They will just have to do service jobs...it's not our fault..that is just the way it is." |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 386
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 3:32 pm: | |
But see, there are poor whites too, who suffer from many of the same ills as have been repeatedly mentioned here as applicable to black people. Well, they are also applicable to white people.
The difference is, nobody looks at a white person and automatically thinks, hillbilly or white trash (sorry, but I am using the terms to illustrate a point). There are plenty of black people who are doing just fine, and they do not fit the stereotypes discussed. Yet, when some non-black person sees such a person, they automatically lump them in with poor and otherwise non-conforming blacks. So, there is that automatic non-acceptance that applies to minorities who have been here, and who have been oppressed by the white majority culture since the beginnings of this nation. |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 252
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 3:49 pm: | |
Gaz is correct |
Dds
Member
Username: Dds
Post Number: 334
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 4:09 pm: | |
quote:The difference is, nobody looks at a white person and automatically thinks, hillbilly or white trash
You've obviously never been to the Bridge Cafe, or the area around Fordson Island. |
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