  Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 145 Registered: 01-2007 |
Thejesus, if a right to work law was voted in in Michigan, any so called benefits would not last. People in other states would say, "Me too, me too", and the perceived advantage would be gone again. People and the economy are not static items. When you tweak one the other dynamics change. Why are the workers in Toyota's Georgetown,KY plant looking into unionizing if non-union shops are so great? The company/worker partnership has broken down. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2684 Registered: 06-2004 |
I think it might be argued that the pervasive greed displayed by, lack of teamwork by, divise environment created by, and generally hostile attitude displayed by state conservatives in both business and the state legislature, are what have done so much economic damage to the state. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 2175 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: Wrong, many of the plants in question that are paying comparable wages are not in states that are highly unionized. As far as safety, are you saying that Toyota, Honda and Nissan plants are unsafe? I don't think so. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2685 Registered: 06-2004 |
"Wrong, many of the plants in question that are paying comparable wages are not in states that are highly unionized" The states they are in is irrelevant - they're paying industry standard wages, though it has recently been revealed that Toyota wants to change that: quote: | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 2080 Registered: 12-2003 |
This is more than right to work state issue. Other states see Michigan and its expensive costs of doing business not only in the manufacturing but also in the government level and are trying to avoid those disasters. Right to Work is just first attempt there will be others. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 84 Registered: 07-2007 |
Most places don't get unionized because workers want to pay union dues and deal with union politics. They get unionized because the people in charge don't treat the workers well, don't pay them what they should and look to cut costs on the backs of the workers. Show me a workplace looking to unionize and I'll show you crappy management that doesn't value its workers. There are exceptions but most places that get unionized bring it on themselves. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1611 Registered: 10-2006 |
"If the union gets broken, pay in those plants will plummet." Remind me to thread jack once we pass the issue of government supported unions and address the idea of artificially inflated wages. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1873 Registered: 11-2003 |
If Michigan became a Right-to-Work state, I could see it possibly lowering average wages for unionized employees a bit, but it would also reduce unemployment considerably (which is our bigger problem), so I'd say the net effect would be positive. quote: Basically, I agree, but I wonder if there will be a serious effort by any group to get it on the ballot for fall 2008? That's a lot of signatures, although I suppose it wouldn't be that hard to get the required # of signatures by canvassing various less-union-oriented cities (Grand Rapids, etc). | ||
Classico Member Username: Classico Post Number: 55 Registered: 12-2005 |
Just say no to Right to Work. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 455 Registered: 11-2006 |
quote: "bunch of "correlation does not equal causation" statistics right there! maybe the News should look into the alarming rise of global warming due to a decline in pirate population. since the pirate population has dwindled, we are experiencing hotter summers. look it up." Slight detour on correlation. I remember when the rage of correlation studies was time lag correlation. It goes something like this: Many correlations which measure two variable at a single point in time are valid (e.g., cooling degrees and electricity usage - hotter it is TODAY the more electricity which will be used TODAY). Some variables involve time lag - alcohol consumption and cirrhosis of the liver. One would need to correlate long term usage with incidence of cirrhosis. If someone took up heavy drinking late he might not develop cirrhosis. That is because short term heavy drinking presumably not correlated with cirrhosis. | ||
Lvnthed Member Username: Lvnthed Post Number: 146 Registered: 03-2007 |
Anyone remember TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS? The fear of Unions is what keeps Japan in line. Absent that, the drip, drip, drip to the bottom is all but guaranteed for the middle-class worker. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 89 Registered: 07-2007 |
"If Michigan became a Right-to-Work state, I could see it possibly lowering average wages for unionized employees a bit, but it would also reduce unemployment considerably (which is our bigger problem), so I'd say the net effect would be positive. " Based on what? | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1336 Registered: 07-2004 |
Possibly germane to the argument of why American workers vote against their own economic interests. Replace "Republican" with "Doakes" if you feel it's too partisan. A Day in the Life of Joe Republican Posted by Lee Ward Published: Sep 3, 07 04:01 PM (h/t: Michael - This was originally circulated via email a few years ago - author unknown) A Day in the Life of Joe Republican Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised. All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry. In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor. Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune. It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression. Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that his in addition to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded university. Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the tax-payer funded roads. He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to. Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have." | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 2200 Registered: 03-2006 |
I don't understand why big labor is afraid of giving workers a choice. "Right to Work" laws do not ban unions. If the union is providing something that workers want, people will join, if not, so be it. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2687 Registered: 06-2004 |
If the workers don't want to join they can go work in a non-union shop. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 2202 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: Until the UAW comes along and organizes the place which forces ALL of the workers to join even if they voted against it. Sounds pretty un-American to me. Later when they are canned because the company moves out to get away from the union BS the workers are left with nothing and the union reps are nowhere in sight. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2688 Registered: 06-2004 |
"which forces ALL of the workers to join even if they voted against it. Sounds pretty un-American to me." sounds like democracy to me - God knows I've had to tolerate those I didn't vote for | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 2203 Registered: 03-2006 |
Democracy does not mean being forced to join organizations you don't want to be in. If a Democrat votes in an election where the Republican candidate wins it doesn't mean they are forced to become Republicans. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2689 Registered: 06-2004 |
No one is forced to join any organization - anyone is free to leave the shop and work elsewhere | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 2204 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: Would you be OK with the government forcing you to join the Republican party as a condition of keeping your job, or would you just happily "leave the shop" with nary a complaint? This is what forced union membership amounts to, except on the opposite side of the ideological fence. Most unions are basically extensions of the Democrat party. They pick candidates to support and put the members dues money behind them. They make sure that election day is a paid holiday and get their members out to the polls. Meanwhile the government protects these organizations and allows them to force people to join or face losing their job. This type of arrangement has no place in 21st century America. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 376 Registered: 05-2004 |
If business were so great and thought so much of their employees, there wouldn't be any unions. It's funny but how many nonunion car companies give out comparable wages just so the unions don't come in. The unions have their faults but I'd rather deal with them than not have any around. We'd all get less money without them. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2690 Registered: 06-2004 |
"Would you be OK with the government forcing you to join the Republican party as a condition of keeping your job" Are there any members of the Republican National Committee who belong to the Democratic Party? "They make sure that election day is a paid holiday and get their members out to the polls" You got a problem with this? You don't want blue collar workers voting? | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 84 Registered: 07-2007 |
What party do unions give almost all of their workers wages,dues, to? A forced tax on wages to give partial dues to the Democrats. What we need is a "separation of union and state", like the so called "sep. of church and state". | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2691 Registered: 06-2004 |
And funds the employers could give out as wages undoubtedly go to Republicans instead | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 2209 Registered: 03-2006 |
I am sure if the shoe were on the other foot and the unions were pro-Republican and were confiscating money from liberals to give to Republican candidates the Dems would be screaming bloody murder, of that I have no doubt. | ||
Kid_dynamite Member Username: Kid_dynamite Post Number: 207 Registered: 06-2007 |
abso-figgin-lutely PG | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2692 Registered: 06-2004 |
Bush and his cronies have confiscated enough money to offset anything the unions could ever hope to do | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 2210 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: Using your logic they could just "leave the shop" if they don't like it. The point is the employers contributions are voluntary and are nobody else's business. The real problem is the unions have been voting for people like Levin and Granholm and what is it getting them? Canned. You have Democrat leaders in the House and Senate who want to raise CAFE standards to the point where it would do major harm to the Big 3 and a presidential candidate out there telling people they should not buy SUV's, the one line of vehicles they make a little money on. Then you have Clinton, whose husband signed NAFTA and GATT which caused massive numbers of union jobs to go offshore. Meanwhile most of the libs on the coasts wouldn't buy an American car to save their life. With friends like that, who needs enemies? (Message edited by perfectgentleman on September 04, 2007) | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 92 Registered: 07-2007 |
"If business were so great and thought so much of their employees, there wouldn't be any unions." Exactly. "Perfectgentleman" can complain all he wants about the unfair advantages that he thinks unions have. But if it weren't for jerk bosses and crappy companies, unions wouldn't exist. You push employees far enough and they'll get unionized. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2694 Registered: 06-2004 |
"The point is the employers contributions are voluntary and are nobody else's business." They're the stockholders' business. |
