  Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1718 Registered: 04-2006 |
I was in Detroit over the weekend. Even though I grew up in that city/region, I find it really amazing at how much parking there is in that city. The way parking is designed seems like a very inefficient use of land. IMO, this is part of the "structural" deficiencies that are/have been choking the life out of the city. Are there any city codes that regulate the way parking is designed in the city? Has the DDOT ever considered implementing a park and ride program (ala Super Bowl shuttles) to alleviate the need of so much parking the in CBD (And maybe even make the land there more valuable in the process)? | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 10557 Registered: 12-2003 |
The Pakistani parking lobby is way too strong for that...they finance parties at the Manoogian, at the very least. Tough to break... | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3719 Registered: 02-2005 |
I hear you, Iheart. It's amazing that people still complain about a "lack" of parking for during busy downtown days. (More like a laziness to park more than 4 blocks away). Anyway, if there ever is a shortage, it's because we have so many surface lots. If we took all our empty lots used for parking, and developed them such that 80 percent of them had buildings with or without underground parking and 20 percent had garages, we could probably still have a net gain in parking spaces downtown in addition to a more cohesive landscape. It is really sad how much downtown has been torn up. Every city except for NY and a few of the better downtowns on the east coast has experienced this, but not to the enormous extent that Detroit has seen. I know that Cleveland and Newark have a high rate of downtown surface lots, but nowhere close to Detroit. I don't know about codes, but we might as well make a downtown development plan that calls for no further demolition of any downtown building without a variance (which would be next to impossible to get), and goals such as 20 percent of surface lots developed (even if it's just a parking garage being built) every ten years-- and bolster this will subsidies and tax refunds. We can look at the bright side, though. When Detroit becomes a major business center again in 20 years, all those empty lots with be space for shiny modern skyscrapers to dot our future skyline. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 449 Registered: 08-2007 |
Interesting albeit tangential piece at: http://www.salon.com/news/feat ure/2007/10/01/parking/ | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2778 Registered: 10-2003 |
When the land becomes more valuable as a place for people rather than a place for cars, the surface parking lots will disappear. When the office market can generate more income from housing people than cars, the parking decks will disappear. This is strictly a market driven phenomena. Until the downtown office/residential market absorbs all the available space there will be no demand to change parking into office/residential space. SMART already runs park and ride routes from the suburbs on weekdays. They are already fulfilling the limited demand for P&R. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3720 Registered: 02-2005 |
I agree, Ndavies, but let's not forget the power of economic incentives. Additionally, demand for parking spaces seems like it should act independantly of what type of arrangement, i.e. surface/underground/above ground. People may mildly prefer a certain type, but I'd say distance relative to their destination is the primary concern. Having said this, why not try to formulate policies that re-organize downtown parking arrangements such that we cut down on the inefficiency and physical blight that is surface parking? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1719 Registered: 04-2006 |
SMART already runs park and ride routes from the suburbs on weekdays. They are already fulfilling the limited demand for P&R. The demand is so limited because downtown is currently just one big parking lot. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3371 Registered: 10-2003 |
Why take transit when there's a buttload of cheap parking? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2779 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: And Downtown is one big parking lot because there is no demand for it to be buildings. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1720 Registered: 04-2006 |
When does the cycle end? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3373 Registered: 10-2003 |
No, downtown is one big parking lot because the City of Detroit keeps spending money to demolish buildings and create new parking lots. And let's not forget the massive parking requirements the City imposed on the casinos. There is so much redundant parking in downtown Detroit, it's not even funny. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2780 Registered: 10-2003 |
Buildings keep going empty because there is a surplus of office space and the rents can't generate enough cash to keep the building functioning. Buildings that can't generate a profit are then turned over to the city on tax foreclosure. The city also can't afford the required maintenance. The building falls into a further state of disrepair. Eventually the building ends up in a state where it cannot economically be reused and needs to be torn down. Thereby becoming a profitable surface parking lot. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3374 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Horseshit. The City doesn't do squat for maintenance of abandoned buildings, nor do they enforce any sort of laws requiring same of private owners. They will, however, GLADLY hand Mike Ilitch piles of public money to demolish a historic structure that could have easily been saved. This creates a cycle of diminishing demand--no one in their right mind is going to locate in downtown Detroit if it looks like a moonscape. The only buildings that NEED to be torn down are those which are experiencing systematic structural failure. But of course, you know better, which is why Detroit looks the way it does. Keep tearing shit up for more parking lots--then nobody will have ANY reason to park there. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 1899 Registered: 04-2005 |
 Map of parking lots from the 1930s. Surface lots in red, parking garages in purple. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 910 Registered: 11-2003 |
Geez Dan, too much coffee today? Your point is taken. No need to insult every last poster that chooses to present a competing viewpoint. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3375 Registered: 10-2003 |
I wasn't insulting Ndavies--just asserting that he's flat-out wrong. You can't build a city by tearing everything down and building parking all over the place. Otherwise, it just becomes a theme park with a couple stadiums and casinos. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 450 Registered: 08-2007 |
Are there any city codes that regulate the way parking is designed in the city?i "Our story begins in the 1920s with the birth of a piece of esoteric regulation, the "minimum parking requirement." Before parking meters and residential parking permits, cities feared that they were running out of street parking. So municipalities began ordering businesses to provide parking and wrote zoning restrictions to ensure it." from Salon Can anyone explain how some cities like NYC circumvent this while others like Detroit seem to contradict this. Does anyone know how this national edict relates to local code? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2782 Registered: 10-2003 |
So Dan, as usually you are being delusional. Buildings that aren't economically viable will be torn down. Even if they are in a good structural state. The only buildings that ever get torn down are those that are not economically sustainable. If a landlord cannot charge enough rent to do the upkeep, they will devolve into demolition. This rule will never change. And you know better because you live in the land of artificially sustained market demand. Not in the real world where market forces kill buildings. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 926 Registered: 01-2005 |
Danindc (post # 3374): As usual, you appear to be speaking authoritatively when you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. You don't know enough to recognize it when somebody does know what they're talking about, such as Ndavies. God, you are so aggravating. My guess is you've never owned any real estate and have therefore never made a dime in the real estate business. You say that the City (which, admittedly is and has been the region's most irresponsible landowner) has no laws forcing private owners to keep up their properties. Well, horse shit to you as well because you're absolutely wrong. The City requires owners to obtain Certificates of Compliance periodically, and that costs owners lots of money. When I used to own buildings in Detroit I kept up my properties, frequently under pressure from the City. Abandoned buildings? What would you do if you had the power to enforce compliance with ordinances and (i) you can't find the owner (always a corporation), or (ii) if you can, the owner is broke and/or won't comply? Threaten to take away the building? Get serious. No one wants them or they would not have been abandoned. You say the City hands over tons of money to Ilitch to tear down a historic (dump) building that could "easily have been saved." Well, genius, why didn't you come to Detroit (if you could find it on a map) and come in and save it? (No money? Well, money talks and your bullshit walks.) It's always the inexperienced people with no money of their own who want to tell the real people how to do it. By the way, I presume you were talking about the Mad-Len (which you've never even seen) and you have no idea what happened after it was demolished. Well, it's a very attractive parking lot, fenced and landscaped, awaiting development into a higher and more economic use, and the buildings behind it have been painted and spruced up and the area it quite pretty. Why don't you save up and come to Detroit and check it out. Re-read Ndavbies' posts a couple of times and you'll learn ten times more about real estate than you do now. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3376 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: So you extrapolate an entire trend out of one data point in time? That doesn't sound logical at all. How do you expect properties to become economically viable if you keep tearing down others? Demolitions don't exactly make the surrounding environment any more appealing. You would rather spend public money to demolish and rebuild over and over again? No wonder why Michigan and Detroit are flat fucking broke. quote: No, I live in the land where vacant properties are taxed at ten times the rate of inhabited properties. Your whining and excuses are really very tiresome. Why do you people settle for half-assed solutions and third-rate policy? Is it easier to sit on your heels and attribute blame to something you believe is beyond your control? quote: Read. Carefully. I said the City doesn't enforce the laws. That much is painfully clear. quote: Feel free to stop making shit up anytime you want. I'm sure glad you know what I know. Perhaps you could tell me how to do my job, too. If you guys are so great and so knowledgeable about all of this, why does Detroit still look like Berlin circa 1945? But hey--you've got tons of "attractive" places to park, so WTF do I know about rebuilding an urban environment? | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1775 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Are there any city codes that regulate the way parking is designed in the city?" Nope. Zoning doesn't require dedicated parking in the CBD. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 928 Registered: 01-2005 |
I don't believe you have a job, or if you do, based on the amount of time you spend on this forum, you work for daddy. I'm semi-retired and spend most of my time on my TX businesses, and since I own them I can spend as much time as I want.) Read my response. The City DOES (painfully so) enforce building maintenance ordinances to the extent they are legally and practically enforceable. Didn't I tell you how those enforced laws impacted me? Read, don't skim. Learn. What you are good at is failing to meaningfully respond to questions posed of you or challenges made to your posts. "...what the fuck do I know about rebuilding an urban environment?" NOTHING ••••••••• | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2784 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: It's about supply and demand. It's about the supply and demand equation that's been working in Detroit for over 40 years now. It's the same issue that's caused ghost towns all over the world ever since man inhabited the planet. I'm sure the Mayans thought the same thing as you before they left their cutting edge cities in central america. Just leave it up and people will come. It's the same issue that's caused the ruin of many european castles. I'm not willing to wait 1000 years before people rediscover Detroit's ruins. We have a huge supply and very little demand. We need to remove the supply of unsustainable buildings to bring the market demand back into balance. The continued oversupply of space continues to drag down rents. Meaning even Class A space in Detroit is marginally profitable due to the oversupply of B and C space. We are definitely not generating demand by keeping old abandoned buildings around. Commercial investors will not invest in an area that has a huge number of abandoned buildings around it. So Dan, When are you going to come here and show us how it's done? Both 3rdworldcity and I are active investors in this market. Why don't you come here and do a better job than all the investors in the Detroit downtown real estate marketplace have done to date? Or are you afraid you bassackwards view of real estate investing will cost you your life savings? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3379 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Well, that's a pretty hysterical comment, considering that's exactly what I get paid to do. I'm willing to bet that I've worked on more renovations in the past five years than 90% of you "experts" on these boards. I guess I don't understand why every time a comment conflicting with your long-held beliefs is raised, you find it necessary to wage personal attacks on said commenter. It's almost as if defensiveness and low-civic-self-esteem are programmed into everyone in Michigan. Maybe that's why businesses don't want to locate in Michigan, huh? quote: Sounds like you could learn a thing or two from Manuel Maroun or Mike Ilitch. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3380 Registered: 10-2003 |
Henry Ford once said, "Think you can, think you can't. Either way, you'll be right." Detroit is never going to change until the paradigm changes. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2609 Registered: 10-2003 |
So what do you offer us, Dan? Your job experience? You've "worked on" renovations for five years. So has an electrician I know. Big deal. Do you have any skin in the game? Tell us of YOUR real estate projects, using YOUR money. Vocal armchair experts abound, the folks who've actually done it (3WC, Norm) are usually pretty quiet about it. Your familiarity with Detroit? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't live here, you've never lived in Detroit, and you only lived in Michigan as a undergrad. Yet you've got the answers, and some very astute people here don't? Your accumulated life wisdom? The older one gets, the more one learns, yet one also realizes how much one still doesn't know. You must be pretty young because you haven't reached the point where you realize just how much you don't know. Dan, you expect people to listen to you but you lack the standing required to be a respected voice on these matters and your delivery is usually condescending. That's no way to way to lead people in real life, as you'll learn someday when required to do so. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3382 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well Track, it seems I don't have much to offer then. You guys have it all figured out, which is why Detroit is in the shape it's in. I don't need to be a real estate developer to have an opinion on the matter, either. Pardon me for providing perspective from a place that actually is redeveloping. Enjoy your vibrant parking lots. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 813 Registered: 12-2006 |
Detroit's policies and Michigan's laws have led to Detroit's disinvestment and abandonment exceeding that of other major cities. There is no significant geographic or climate difference between Detroit and other urban areas, or anything else to explain it except government policies. The Detroit Water and Sewer District contributes to the problem every time they extend water and sewer service further out into the low-tax, no-infrastructure exurbs. DWSD made possible the Southfield and Troy of today, just for one instance. As suburbs grew and people began the outmigration, Detroit never made a compelling point as to why people should continue to live in the City, and as conditions worsened, this lack of a positive message became crippling. Finally, Michigan's love of home rule and the state's desire to handcuff any meaningful attempts at land-use reform contribute to the sprawl, land-use growth during times of zero population growth, which rip through the region except during these unusual times when the economy is so bad that sprawl takes a breather. But don't worry, it will be back. Ten years from now builders will be developing cookie-cutter subdivisions in Washtenaw, Monroe, Livingston and St. Clair Counties, and the blight will have reached up to Fourteen Mile Road or beyond and out past Merriman Road, and we will still be on Lowell's web site posting these same arguments back and forth. Sad folk we are. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1721 Registered: 04-2006 |
Ten years from now builders will be developing cookie-cutter subdivisions in Washtenaw, Monroe, Livingston and St. Clair Counties They already have been doing this for some time in Washtenaw and Livingston Counties... (Message edited by iheartthed on October 01, 2007) | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2785 Registered: 10-2003 |
They're in Monroe county too. I'm watching my Monroe land holdings jump in value. It's almost time to sell off the old farm I own. It will make a great subdivision. It's in a great location. Easy freeway access, Has lake erie lake frontage, in a school district that has built all new schools in the last 15 years. Not far from the new post office and the brand new grocery store. It's at the southern end of DWSD. Just got rid of the propane tank, now that Michcon gas lines were installed a few years ago. Monroe is growing north and Wayne county is spilling over into Monroe county. I should make a pretty good profit as soon as this housing funk ends. |
