 
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 117
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 4:37 pm: |    |
I'll also amend my post a bit here too.
If Detroit, and by proxy, Wayne County, are serious about the mass transit problem, then start something small here and stay with it. Don't start with something like the PeopleMover and expect others to fund the expansion. If Detroit built its own mass transit sufficient to handle its own needs, I have a distinct feeling that the suburbs would add on to it.
Baby steps man, baby steps. |
Viziondetroit
Member
Username: Viziondetroit
Post Number: 1150
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 4:43 pm: | |
Crime and location in regards to mass transit is all bullshit a' la New York and it's burroughs.
Millionaires and unemployed folk ride the trains to and from ghettohoods and swanky spots and vice versa all the time.
I see all as code speak to me... |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3476
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 4:43 pm: | |
Danindc -
Even if you think expanding mass transit is a good idea what makes you think it can be funded and brought in within budget? There was $100 million pledged for a light rail system servicing Detroit/Metro Airport/Ann Arbor a couple of years ago and jack shit has happened except some meetings. Before that we had the People Mover.
You want more buses? Is the existing system maxed out at the present time and unable to service the existing riders? I don't think anyone is saying that we should get rid of what we have, the question becomes expansion and spending billions to do it.
quote:Don't forget that Oakland County also has Pontiac and the western corridor of M-59. Both of these areas have high crime and gangs but it isn't solely related to race. It has everything to do with the poverty of the residents.
There are plenty of areas around this state and the country in general with low average incomes that do not have high crime rates. |
Carolcb
Member
Username: Carolcb
Post Number: 1940
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 4:45 pm: | |
PG doesn't even live in Michigan, let alone Detroit....... |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3478
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 4:47 pm: | |
quote:PG doesn't even live in Michigan, let alone Detroit.
What the hell are you babbling about? I have lived here all of my life. |
Lmr
Member
Username: Lmr
Post Number: 106
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 4:48 pm: | |
Exmotowner -
I'll agree with the other poster's comments that Minneapolis is a VERY gay-friendly city. I've lived in Minnesota 24 years and it doesn't take much at all to realize that this place is very gay friendly, Minneapolis in particular. I think it stems from a combination of the odd collection of politics that have always been acceptable and the old Scandinavian attitude of "your business is your business". It's more expensive than Detroit but not a lot, most of the "more expensive" is in housing. |
Carolcb
Member
Username: Carolcb
Post Number: 1941
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 4:52 pm: | |
Oops, I thought you were one of our Florida friends. Please excuse. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3436
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 5:06 pm: | |
quote:Even if you think expanding mass transit is a good idea what makes you think it can be funded and brought in within budget? There was $100 million pledged for a light rail system servicing Detroit/Metro Airport/Ann Arbor a couple of years ago and jack shit has happened except some meetings.
That federal money is currently being used to study a commuter rail system (NOT light rail). SEMCOG is proceeding with its consultant, PB, toward constructing a demonstration line, which should be up-and-running sometime next year. I'm not going to reiterate this again. You need to learn to read, my friend. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3437
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 5:09 pm: | |
quote:So, we have a rather insignificant system, that didn't even exist until 1990, a city that has been thriving for hundreds of years with out it, and now you gomers want to say the transit system is why LA is great? no wonder Detroit never gets better, you people literally can not think clearly. What a bunch of jokers.
Los Angeles County MetroRail carries over 275,000 people per day. This doesn't include buses or MetroLink commuter rail. If you think that's insignificant, you are truly a moron. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3480
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 5:11 pm: | |
quote:That federal money is currently being used to study a commuter rail system (NOT light rail). SEMCOG is proceeding with its consultant, PB, toward constructing a demonstration line, which should be up-and-running sometime next year. I'm not going to reiterate this again. You need to learn to read, my friend.
Excuse me in that you had to repeat yourself. In other words jack shit has been done and nobody has proven we even NEED this rail system. If this is what we can expect by expansion of mass transit then we should forget it. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1805
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 5:12 pm: | |
^Add to that Los Angeles also had an extensive street car network until the 1960s, as has been discussed in this forum before. See "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3438
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 5:16 pm: | |
quote: In other words jack shit has been done and nobody has proven we even NEED this rail system.
Well, you can have PB do a half-assed job and make up a whole bunch of shit real fast, or you can let them have a little time to do some actual research and make reasonable projections to ensure the money is well spent, and the project is successful. But this is EXACTLY why studies are done. Most people (believe it or not) don't just go around throwing around bullshit ideology and selling it as "fact".
It does take time to do a thorough and proper job, you know.
But look here for all the "jack shit" that's been done:
http://www.annarbordetroitrapi dtransitstudy.com |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3482
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 5:26 pm: | |
Danindc
Looking at their time lines, it looks like they missed their targets and blown their dates. Most of the documents are preliminary and are over a year old. Where is the proof that we even need this line?
The site also mentions light rail was being studied despite your assertion. In addition it looks like the cost will run into the billions. Any idea where the money is coming from?
You are easily impressed. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1808
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 5:36 pm: | |
Have you ever even been to LA? |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1289
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 5:40 pm: | |
"Oh, I've been to Georgia and California and anywhere I could run
I took the hand of a preacher man and we made love in the sun
But I ran out of places and friendly faces because I had to be free
I've been to paradise but I've never been to me" |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3439
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 5:56 pm: | |
quote:Where is the proof that we even need this line?
PG, I know your boy George Dubya operates a little bit differently, but usually the "proof" is a result of study (vis-a-vis study rigged to support the "proof").
Patience. If they had this thing banged out in a day, you'd be pissed because they spent $100 million on a day's worth of work.
Commuter rail on existing track typically costs $2-3 million per mile to implement--far from "billions". |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3484
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 6:56 pm: | |
Just reading the numbers on the site Danindc, one proposal was at $962 million. Factor in the normal cost overruns and incompetence true of most large government project you are in the billions. We won't see this thing any time soon though. Even if we did, things won't change much in Detroit. |
Viziondetroit
Member
Username: Viziondetroit
Post Number: 1155
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 7:35 pm: | |
"Even if we did, things won't change much in Detroit."
I love the positive vibe in this forum |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3440
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 7:51 pm: | |
quote:Just reading the numbers on the site Danindc, one proposal was at $962 million. Factor in the normal cost overruns and incompetence true of most large government project you are in the billions. We won't see this thing any time soon though. Even if we did, things won't change much in Detroit.
I'm optimistic. The $962 million proposal likely involved extensive light rail, which is frankly not economical over a 45-mile line. The figure I stated is in line with numerous new projects that have been completed in the past ten years. They should easily be able to get this up-and-running--they have plenty of money for at least a demonstration line. Note that in 1997, MDOT published a study that said you could build a complete system (locomotives, passenger cars, track and signal upgrades, stations, etc)-- radiating from Detroit to Ann Arbor, Pontiac, AND Mount Clemens--for $100 million.
In the past 10-15 years, transit planners have become very conservative in their cost and ridership estimates, so most commuter rail projects actually end up becoming a bigger bargain than anticipated. Detroit desperately needs this linkage to the airport and to Ann Arbor. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3486
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 8:01 pm: | |
It is debatable that Detroit "desperately needs this linkage," I haven't seen any data on commuter patterns that indicates that. As for the costs, there is no way the entire project can be built for $100 million. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4230
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 8:17 pm: | |
quote:In the past 10-15 years, transit planners have become very conservative in their cost and ridership estimates, so most commuter rail projects actually end up becoming a bigger bargain than anticipated. Translated: The overseers finally caught on and don't always cave to the socialists who routinely "low-balled" these types of boondoggles and who got them up and only partially completed. IOW, they lied their asses off previously before, and they are now held more accountable and their lies (err. estimates) checked a bit more thoroughly.
(Message edited by LivernoisYard on October 09, 2007) |
Pmatylonek
Member
Username: Pmatylonek
Post Number: 20
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 10:02 pm: | |
I actually do not consider the likes of Los Angeles and Phoenix "real" cities. They are more like super suburbs. The real cities of the U.S. (in my opinion) include New York, Chicago and San Francisco because people actually live in these cities--not just commute there for a job. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1290
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 11:23 pm: | |
Yes, well anything that shows you or dan or d_stylr might be wrong should be disregarded. Shoot, who really wants Detroit to be like Seattle, or Portland, or Los Angeles. I mean jobs and rising property values, who needs 'em?
The silly thing here is people get one idea in their heads, e.g. "We need a better transit system". Question that or show that it might not be accurate, and I might as well have peed in U of M's foot baths. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 856
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 11:49 pm: | |
Well, Mich and LY, how about this reworking of it:
We need to not have the worst public transportation system of any major city in the developed world.
That better?
By the way, LY makes a valid and really important point. Because of how federal transit money is distributed, it has been common for cities to way lowball projected costs in order to qualify for funds, and then say "oops" when things go sideways. That is because of a combination of a goofy federal funding method and basic dishonesty. Not sure how we fix that, but we sure aren't getting our share of the money as things are now.
Prof. Scott |
Dougw
Member
Username: Dougw
Post Number: 1941
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 12:58 am: | |
quote:Yes, well anything that shows you or dan or d_stylr might be wrong should be disregarded. Shoot, who really wants Detroit to be like Seattle, or Portland, or Los Angeles. I mean jobs and rising property values, who needs 'em?
So let me get this straight, you're holding up Portland as an example of a non-transit city? Good Lord. You're right that they have jobs and rising property values, though. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1810
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 8:18 am: | |
"Oh, I've been to Georgia and California and anywhere I could run
I took the hand of a preacher man and we made love in the sun
But I ran out of places and friendly faces because I had to be free
I've been to paradise but I've never been to me"
Yeah, thought not. If you had then you'd know that L.A. is no where near as densely populated as Chicago, and not very much more dense that current day Detroit. L.A. has never been as densely populated as Detroit was in its heyday (or even as dense as it was 10 years ago!). In fact, NONE of those cities that you mentioned were as densely populated as Detroit was. Chicago, New York, San Francisco, D.C.... You know cities with mass transit systems? Those cities have seen the type of density that Detroit once had. What's the glaring difference between those cities and Detroit now? Hmm, I wonder... |
Exmotowner
Member
Username: Exmotowner
Post Number: 414
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 8:52 am: | |
Minneapolis is WAY too cold for me. I crushed my feet and back a few years back and probably would have a hell of a time with that. Yes, I have a friend that lives in Minneapolis and it is a VERY gay friendly city. If I ever do move, Im afraid it will have to be warmer. |
Detroitsuperfly
Member
Username: Detroitsuperfly
Post Number: 113
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 10:53 am: | |
Mpls is about the same climate as Detroit. Mpls gets bigger snow storms though. Like last March where we got 30" in 3 days. Otherwise, I didn't have any trouble adjusting to the weather. |
Jazzstage
Member
Username: Jazzstage
Post Number: 132
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 12:04 pm: | |
My brother opened a practice in the Dallas, Ft. Worth area. He constantly runs into friends from here. For anyone else thinking of moving to Texas consider this.
ADVICE FOR ANYONE MOVING TO TEXAS
1. Save all manner of bacon grease. You will be instructed later
how to use it.
2. Just because you can drive on snow and ice does not mean we
can. Just stay home the two days of the year it snows.
3. If you do run your car into a ditch, don't panic. Four men in the cab of a four wheel drive with a 12-pack of beer and a tow chain will be along shortly. Don't try to help them. Just stay out of their way. This is what they live for.
4. Don't be surprised to find movie rentals & bait in the same store.
5. Remember: "Y'all" is singular. "All y'all" is plural. "All y'all's" is plural possessive.
6. Get used to hearing, "You ain't from around here, are you?"
7. If you are yelling at the person driving 15 mph in a 55 mph zone, directly in the middle of the road, remember, many folks learned to drive on a model of vehicle known as John Deere, and this is the proper speed and lane position for that vehicle.
8. If you hear a redneck exclaim, "Hey, y'all, watch this!" Stay out of his way. These are likely the last words he will ever say.
9. Get used to the phrase "It's not the heat, it's the humidity". And the collateral phrase "You call this hot? Wait'll August."
10. There are no delis. Don't ask.
11. In conversation, never put your hand on a man's shoulder when making a point, especially in a bar.
12. Chili does NOT have beans in it.
13. Brisket is not 'cooked' in an oven
14. Don't tell us how you did it up there. Nobody cares.
15. If you think it's too hot, don't worry. It'll cool down-in December.
16. We do TOO have 4 Seasons: December, January, February, and Summer!
17. A Mercedes-Benz is not a status symbol. A Ford F-150 is.
18. If someone tells you "Don't worry, those peppers aren't hot"
you can be certain they are.
19. If you fail to heed my warning in #18 above, be sure to have a bowl of guacamole handy. Water won't do it.
20. Rocky Mountain oysters are NOT oysters. Don't ask.
21. If someone says they're "fixin" to do something, that doesn't mean anything's broken.
22. Don't even think of ordering a strawberry daiquiri. What you really mean to say is 'Margarita.'
23. If you don't understand our passion for college and high school football just keep your mouth shut.
24. The value of a parking space is not determined by the distance to the door, but the availability of shade.
25. If you see a slower moving vehicle on a two lane road pull onto the shoulder that is called "courtesy".
26. BBQ is a food group. It does NOT mean grilling burgers and hot dogs outdoors.
27. No matter what you've seen on TV, line dancing is not a popular weekend pastime.
28. "Tea" = Iced Tea. There is no other kind.
29. Everything goes better with Ranch dressing. |
The_ed
Member
Username: The_ed
Post Number: 37
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 12, 2007 - 2:13 pm: | |
quote
"Oh, I've been to Georgia and California and anywhere I could run
I took the hand of a preacher man and we made love in the sun
But I ran out of places and friendly faces because I had to be free
I've been to paradise but I've never been to me"
Sounds like an old Temptations tune ??? |
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