 
Pmatylonek
Member
Username: Pmatylonek
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 2:01 am: |    |
Why people are moving out of Detroit? I'm interested in addressing this because I am back (not wholly, mind you), but I am a reluctant owner of a house in Hamtramck. My primary residence is in downtown Chicago. However, since I own this Hamtramck home, I'm interested in seeing property values go up in the Detroit area, but there are three primary reasons why Detroit is shrinking:
1) Racism: This is a huge problem in Detroit. As long as wealthier white folk continue to diss and FEAR downtown Detroit in favor of vanilla bland strip malls and continue to buy their homes in a gluttonous land sprawl, then Detroit and its beautiful basic infrastructure will never revitalize.
2) Public Transportation: Detroit's single minded investment in the automobile created urban deserts and huge ugly pavements that is a cause of a deteriorated sense of community. Detroit needs to invest in a public transportation that is "cool" for anybody to use--not just the down trodden.
3) The Industrial economy is so passe. Did Detroit ever try...really try...to diversify the economy in this region instead of depending wholly on the likes of GM, Ford and Chrysler?
I was surprised on my last visit to downtown Detroit. There HAS BEEN PROGRESS! It was exciting for me. I grew up in Hamtramck. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3753
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 2:06 am: | |
I agree with everything. But these should be reasons to move out of metro Detroit completely, not just Detroit. Detroit has all the same problems; what makes it unique is public safety problems and public school problems; but a great downtown, culture, and history also make it unique.
You have to really value those last three things, and have other compelling reasons, to justify living in Detroit given all the other negative factors that affect the entire region.
Dealing with your 3 issues will enable the city to develop to a greater extent, and this will of course help the entire area. |
Iaintgotnostyle
Member
Username: Iaintgotnostyle
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 2:14 am: | |
1) Racism: This is a huge problem in Detroit. As long as wealthier white folk continue to diss and FEAR downtown Detroit in favor of vanilla bland strip malls and continue to buy their homes in a gluttonous land sprawl, then Detroit and its beautiful basic infrastructure will never revitalize.
Why on earth should white people or any other non-blacks patronize detroit when its clear they are targeted for crime because of black racists?
Oh Imma get shit for this one.
(holdin on to my hat) |
Gdub
Member
Username: Gdub
Post Number: 1150
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 3:57 am: | |
I think you answered your own question there, I. |
Malcovemagnesia
Member
Username: Malcovemagnesia
Post Number: 49
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 4:09 am: | |
Gee, why did you move out of Detroit, Pmatylonek?
Better opportunities elsewhere? |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 1433
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 6:35 am: | |
Those may have been valid in 1970, but racism, poor public transportation, and a shrinking industrial base have been with us for a very long tome.
High taxes, crime, and dirt bags will eventually push me out. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 158
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 9:25 am: | |
It would be nice if the racism angle wasn't true, but it is. From both extremes.
From the Crackahs who Hate on Detroit to the brothers who insist that only black folks have a right to have a voice in the city.
Remember that Thompson guy from Plymouth who wanted to build a school, invest 200 million, but Detroiters pissed all over that proposal because "he don't look like us."
Remember the recent flap over city buses? The Council refused to allow County Sherrifs to ride the busses because it was feared that the suburbanites would take over DDOT? Turn Detroit back into a Plantation economy?
Remember Freeman being hated on 'cuz his momma was white? And Archer 'cuz he was too friendly with the 'burbs aka whitey?
So offen Detroiters like Ron Scott And David Rambeau point to White Flight and disinvestment as the causes for the City's woes; but not knuckleheads that shoot their neighbors, firebomb the white folk, or steel the copper from utility poles. |
Pmatylonek
Member
Username: Pmatylonek
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 9:46 am: | |
The racism in Detroit is from all angles, from the whites to blacks, and the blacks to the whites. It's awful. I have not ever seen anything like this racism anywhere in the country, except in the RURAL south.
Hamtramck has not changed much. The immigrants there respectfully get along; however, racism very much exists. And as the ethnic groups hate on eachother, they all stand together against African-Americans.
I feel that there is a Detroit undertone of hopelessness and despair in the milieu of its society. I believe that Detroiters naturally have a negative streak in their thinking. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1268
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 9:51 am: | |
Pmat, are you saying blacks can not make it on their own? Why can't Detroit just be a nice place with blacks running it and living here? |
Pmatylonek
Member
Username: Pmatylonek
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 10:01 am: | |
Michigan, are you saying that whites cannot possibly have a black neighbor? What can't Detroit be a nice place with anyone--black, white, red, yellow running it and living here. |
Bulletmagnet
Member
Username: Bulletmagnet
Post Number: 896
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 10:04 am: | |
We were shot out of Detroit. I won’t need public transport to get back in. I am not racist, but being white in Detroit is racist by default (your first point, above). Detroit, or Michigan for that matter, has never faced their economic problems with any honesty, and instead have fallen into a pit of political ideology that they refuse emerge from. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3755
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 10:06 am: | |
Well said about the economic problems; as for being white in Detroit, I think it depends on the neighborhood. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1269
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 10:15 am: | |
Quote:
"As long as wealthier white folk continue to diss and FEAR downtown Detroit in favor of vanilla bland strip malls and continue to buy their homes in a gluttonous land sprawl, then Detroit and its beautiful basic infrastructure will never revitalize."
Pmat- you said it not me. I am asking you what you meant. Why does Detroit need white people to revitalize? And why is it racist for white people not to want to live in crime ridden, decaying neighborhoods? Why are white people always the linchpin (no pun intended)?
Why can't the population of Detroit make the city a nice place to live on their own? |
Pmatylonek
Member
Username: Pmatylonek
Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 10:38 am: | |
When I was a kid, Stony Creek was a beautifully forested area. Yates Cider Mill would churn out apples and I would play in a nearby stream. I understand that the stream I played in is now someone's backyard. This is sprawl.
Of course, everyone wants to live on a nice street and feel safe. Neighborhoods decay only because people abandon them, and move out because of fear, racism, etc. Instead of tackling the problems head-on, or working it out, I guess it is easy to move away and rip down a forest.
I moved away as a kid because I wanted to see the world and I did.
The bottom-line: The neighborhoods of Detroit will never be rid of its reputation of crime ridden, etc until people with money of all stripes and sizes come back to re-develop them--protect them and clean them up. Chicago has done it, Cleveland has done it, New York has done it, Atlanta has done it.
What's hold up in Detroit? |
Docmo
Member
Username: Docmo
Post Number: 298
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 10:43 am: | |
I'm a well off white guy who lives in and loves Detroit. I will soon be out of here for one reason only. That is the antiquated and repressive city income tax. I'll move back to the burbs, visit often and save thousands of dollars in income taxes. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1272
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 11:02 am: | |
Your ideas about neighborhood flight are outdated and wrong. Please research the many studies that have shown flight has less to do with racism than fear of falling property values. Read up on how Oak Park Illinois addressed this issue. Then read up about how the tradition of renting rather than owning in certain Chicago and New York areas kept residents from fleeing. But the areas with single family homes were devastated. Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Baltimore, were cities of homeowners, so when the specter of property decline reared its head people ran from those places.
Docmo, who says he is white, is quite clear on why he will leave Detroit, to save money, not to get away from black or brown people.
You said, and I quote, "as long as ...white folk continue to diss and FEAR downtown Detroit" there is no hope for Detroit. Until someone called you on your overt racism you felt completely comfortable and justified in blaming white people for Detroit's problems, instead of looking at who lives in Detroit and what they need to do to improve their lives and their city. Cities and suburbs all over the country dislike each other, Detroit is no different. But its citizens feel that the suburbs owe it something, interesting dynamic. |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2398
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 11:41 am: | |
Docmo, you are willing to leave Detroit simply because of the income tax? Wow! My wife and I had to pay around $160 dollars in income tax to the city of Detroit for 2006 and I didn't like having to do that. However, when I think about the free events and activities that are offered in Detroit and the excitement of living in the city, I would never leave simply because of the "city income tax". Based on 365 days, and a working married couple, I had to pay income tax of $2.28 per day to live in Detroit. Not a huge sacrifice for two people. Now, if you were getting jammed up with those high property taxes I could understand why you want to move. |
Paulmcall
Member
Username: Paulmcall
Post Number: 461
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 11:50 am: | |
If people felt they were getting their money's worth and there were decent schools, honest public servants,low crime, plus a responsive police force there would be an increase in population.
Don't count on it anytime soon. |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2674
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 11:56 am: | |
The racism bullshit excuse is jus that an excuse......and a lame one at that.
People leave any place including Detroit because they insist on being safe.Safe means feeling reasonably sure that your house is not gonna get broken into, your car is no gonna be vandalized, your garage is not gonna be ransacked.........I think you all get the picture. People continue to leave Detroit.......these are not white people...... the racsim angle is laughable as a reason for people leaving and it simply excuses a city government that for years has not done much about crime. |
Andylinn
Member
Username: Andylinn
Post Number: 575
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 12:03 pm: | |
i'm a white guy, with no plans of ever leaving... and racism!?
sure, i've been hassled by a few (homeless) people, but i've also been complemented for living here. some people are ignorant, and some people are open-minded...
my family has lived in the city for seven generations. unless my house gets fire bombed every day for a month, i'm not moving out of detroit. ever. (24 years and counting) |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2399
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 12:13 pm: | |
Can someone please tell me what other industries should the State of Michigan have invested in instead of automobiles? Don't we have a farming? Aren't we known for Michigan cherries? Don't we have a wineries? Isn't tourism popular in Michigan all year round? Don't we have a transportation hub through trucking and shipping? Don't we have casino and indian casino gaming?
What's missing here in Michigan that we could some how steal away from some other states? Michigan is a manufacturing state. Nebraska is a farming state. Florida is a tourism state. If the climate in Florida became colder and it snowed there like it does in Detroit, would tourism die down? Yes it would. What would Florida do to replace tourism, steal manufacturing jobs from Michigan?
Happenstance forces states to go into certain industries and stay in them. Yes, when those industries dry up, they have to diversify. However, they can only diversify up to a point. The State of Michigan should strengthen other industries, farming and transportation for example, before it can realistically think that it can attract other industries.
BTW, playing naive to make a point, what does Chicago and the State of Illinois have that Detroit and Michigan don't?
(Message edited by royce on October 07, 2007) |
Oldoak
Member
Username: Oldoak
Post Number: 27
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 12:23 pm: | |
quote:
"Chicago has done it, Cleveland has done it, New York has done it, Atlanta has done it.
What's hold up in Detroit?"
Detroit IS DOING IT. Just because it does not meet your instant gratification expectation does not mean that Detroit deserves to be kept down by negative attitudes.
The pioneers in those cities saw early opportunity and went for it. Negative attitudes only make the job harder for Detroit but we will make it great in spite of you.
There are plenty of white suburbanites who love Detroit, btw. |
Docmo
Member
Username: Docmo
Post Number: 301
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 12:27 pm: | |
Royce, 2.5% of one's income is not insignificant. I'd rather pocket that 2.5%. I'm not sure how you only pay $160. Am I missing something here? |
Pmatylonek
Member
Username: Pmatylonek
Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 12:45 pm: | |
"I'd rather pocket that 2.5%."
Me, me, me, me and to hell with how we ALL live.
Smart. |
Pmatylonek
Member
Username: Pmatylonek
Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 1:11 pm: | |
"BTW, playing naive to make a point, what does Chicago and the State of Illinois have that Detroit and Michigan don't?"
Nothing. That has been my point. Detroit has one of nation's most beautiful downtown infrastructures that is SO unrealized. It is unbelievable how UNLOVED downtown Detroit is by its people--city dwellers and suburbanites alike. |
Docmo
Member
Username: Docmo
Post Number: 302
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 1:13 pm: | |
O% in every other SE Michigan community. 2.5% in Detroit. Why would any high income earner choose to live in the City?
Let's say one of our professional athletes making $1,000,000 per year actually decided to live in the City. Well, that's an extra 25K out of their pocket just for the "privilege" of living in the City. Hey, I've got no problems paying my share of taxes. When you are a high income earner, though, it simply makes no financial sense to pay out an extra 2.5%.
Who is going to buy all these luxury condos on the Riverfront? Major income earners will not live where there is such a significant tax penalty.
The City instituted the City income tax in 1962. It's been all down hill since then. It is a major disincentive to money moving back into this city. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 270
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 1:36 pm: | |
Those aren't the three primary reason Pmatylonek
although they are reasons for some people moving.
I would order the list like this
1. high level of crime and violence
2. schools - where parents don't have to fear for thier children's lives.
3. poor services and high taxes that aren't justified.
I agree with # 3 Detroit was not real small business friendly city.
The private sector should create jobs, not the government.
I didn't know that rich white folk were necessary to build a good community. |
Docmo
Member
Username: Docmo
Post Number: 303
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 1:42 pm: | |
Lefty2,
Rich white folk are not necessary to build a community, Their disposable income does help, though. |
Atwater
Member
Username: Atwater
Post Number: 12
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 1:43 pm: | |
quote:1) Racism: This is a huge problem in Detroit. As long as wealthier white folk continue to diss and FEAR downtown Detroit in favor of vanilla bland strip malls and continue to buy their homes in a gluttonous land sprawl, then Detroit and its beautiful basic infrastructure will never revitalize.
Excuse me? There are plenty of black racists, as well as black thugs and criminals whom we certainly ought to "diss and FEAR" (and yes, I know you used those words in regard to downtown, but your point was that this was racism against blacks). In fact, there have been many black racist posts that I've read right on this message board in past years...
And, I wonder.. given the population that actually lives in the city of Detroit right now.. do you think that maybe there are actually *more* black racists than white racists currently residing in Detroit?? Hmmm, interesting..
This is not to say that there is not white racism- I realize there is. But there is also black racism. And I believe that there is black racism that is helping to prevent or slow the revitalization of Detroit. So when you mention racism.. keep in mind, it exists on BOTH sides, and it's BOTH of those sides of racism that are a problem for Detroit's revitalization efforts.
(Message edited by atwater on October 07, 2007) |
Nanska
Member
Username: Nanska
Post Number: 77
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 1:59 pm: | |
1) Violent Crime
2) Poor School System
3) Poor/Lack of Services
Not that these are problems limited to Detroit only, but we left in '94 because of these reasons. |