 
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2403
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 10:10 pm: |    |
Michigan, you taking that quote out of context and then passing judgement on me is the stupid post of the day. Did you not read what I wrote after that? I'm sure that the rest of the forumers understood what I was saying in its totality. Too bad you couldn't understand it.
BTW, Michigan, the correct phrasing of what you were trying to say is, "If this is not the..., then I don't know what is.
(Message edited by royce on October 07, 2007)
(Message edited by royce on October 07, 2007) |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3433
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 11:31 pm: | |
quote:Remember, gains are attained only after making sacrifices. We here in Michigan have to start making sacrifices that benefit every one and not just our selves and families.
Totally unrealistic. I would not sacrifice my family or their quality of life to save a city. People moved out of Detroit for many reasons, and racism was only a small component. Until those issues are addressed, Detroit will continue to fail.
Blacks claimed they were being oppressed by whites and rioted. Then Coleman Young came in for 5 terms and seemed to make it clear that whites were not welcome in Detroit. So, white people left. Now we are being told that it the fault of the whites that left that the city collapsed?
Sorry, it doesn't wash. Blacks now run the city from top to bottom. They have implemented all of their liberal policies for decades now without challenge. Apparently it isn't working as even thousands of blacks are leaving the city every year to join their so-called "oppressors" in the suburbs.
The destiny of the city now rests in the hands of the residents of the city and the government they elected. Michigan made a good point earlier, what is stopping the people in Detroit from having a good quality of life? Address the crime issue and maybe a recovery could begin. Why are others always to blame?
And I really don't think we need to hear any more crap about how Detroit is "subsidizing" the suburbs by robbing resources that could be used re-vitalize the city. If anything it is the other way around. There are far more taxpayer dollars flowing into the city than the residents are paying so lets cut the nonsense.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on October 08, 2007) |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 2899
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 11:36 pm: | |
"There are far more taxpayer dollars flowing into the city than the residents are paying so lets cut the nonsense."
data? |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 846
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 11:53 pm: | |
The cost of our corrections system began to spiral out of control when we decided that prohibition was a good idea. We decided it once, vis-a-vis alcohol, in the 1920s. Then when that failed catastrophically, we decided it again but this time with regard to marijuana, cocaine, heroin and so forth. The current philosophy got its start during the reign of Richard Milhous Nixon and has never really subsided.
The idea of it is this: if we only keep throwing people in jail who do some particular bad thing to themselves, eventually people will stop. That, of course, is farcical. All of the pro-"drug war" arguments fall completely flat to me. The drug "war" is a catastrophic failure of biblical proportions, and has been for decades, yet no serious politician dares to admit it.
So long as we keep in our society the bizarre and unsupportable notion that it somehow benefits us to put pot smokers (and so on) in jail and pay the cost of their incarceration, we will continue to pay more, and more, and more, and more, and more to house people who do not harm me or you in any way.
If you disagree, try a counterpoint; I'm in the mood for a good argument.
Prof. Scott
PS - just so you know, I use no illegal drugs myself, but I support your right to smoke or ingest (by whatever means) whatever you like. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3436
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 11:59 pm: | |
Legalizing marijuana and hard drugs has been debated at length on this board many times both together and separately. As a practical matter, hard drugs are never going to be legalized for numerous reasons.
Even if they were, that does not mean that crime would stop. You would still have thousands of uneducated people with few jobs skills that would be looking for ways to make money. Legalizing drugs would not even stop illegal drug sales or the crime associated with getting money to pay for drugs.
Think it through, it won't work. |
Pmatylonek
Member
Username: Pmatylonek
Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:00 am: | |
I'm back from a little shopping in the city! Wow, I am impressed with the thoughtful posts. There will always be some who build arguments, create judgements or use words that are not constructive, but I'm impressed! I hope that all Detroiters from the area can begin working together to help rebuild Detroit. It really can be a beautiful place.
The infrastructure on the river front, Belle Isle, Canada is really "WOW." But we who have invested in this region still have not gotten it together to see it happen.
Someday, maybe. Other mid-sized cities have rebounded. Detroit is WAY overdue. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 848
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:27 am: | |
Perfect:
I'm not claiming that putting a stop to prohibition will solve all, or many problems. I'm claiming it would reduce the cost of the criminal justice system, by a huge amount, and not cause any harm to society (beyond the harm caused by prohibition itself).
If drugs were legal, what would "illegal drug sales" mean? The "crime associated with getting money" exists whether the drugs are legal or not. If someone robs me to pay for his whiskey, is that a different crime (to me) than if he robs me to pay for cocaine?
"It" won't work? What won't work? What's the possible harm? I've thought it through for decades. Things are as bad, with regard to how we manage drug use in America, as they could possibly be. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3441
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:31 am: | |
Are you suggesting that crystal meth and crack cocaine should be legal? |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 470
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:48 am: | |
Nobody goes to jail for mirajuana usage, it's a misdemeanor in most locales.
Advocating legalization of drugs such as cocaine which have an extremely high propensity for addiction is ridiculous. Never going to happen (again). |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 849
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 1:01 am: | |
Why are any of these things illegal? Who benefits, and how?
"Nobody" goes to jail for marijuana use? Really? That's an interesting opinion. People go to jail for misdemeanors, you know.
I'm suggesting there is no benefit to society for drugs to be illegal. If you disagree, please tell me what the benefit is. Why did you specify "crack cocaine", Perfect? What is the difference between that and cocaine in some other form?
It is "ridiculous" that drugs which are highly addictive should be legal? Then why exactly are tobacco and alcohol legal? |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2404
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 1:32 am: | |
Perfectgentleman, you and others like you just want to wash you hands clean of any actions committed by whites regarding the plight of Detroit and its citizens. The riot of '67 was a result of oppressive practices whites placed upon blacks, especially the racist Detroit police department. If the department represented the racial make-up of the city, would the riot have still happened? I'm not sure but at least some black folks would have had some police jobs that whites folks got because of unfair hiring practices.
Look, Perfectgentleman, you are a conservative white guy that simply doesn't understand that 40 years of Civil Rights and the end of overt racism of whites towards blacks doesn't make up for 300 plus years of racism and discrimination of blacks by whites.
You're one of those "pull yourself up from you're boot straps" kind of people that thinks it always just that easy. The fact is: blacks may hold high political positions in Detroit city government, but that doesn't equate to black economic empowerment.
Whites owned most of the businesses prior to the riot, and still are in charge of large companies like GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Blacks, rarely had enough capital to open businesses or own property. Even today when people complain about vacant buildings downtown and why don't the black city government do something about it, their ownership is mostly privately owned by whites. Neither the city nor a handful of blacks own these buildings. Show me, PG, the number of lofts and condos being developed or built in and around downtown Detroit that are being developed by black developers.
Many blacks have achieved a degree of success despite discrimination by whites, but many others have not. Simply wiping the slate clean and starting over can not be done as easily as you think, PG. Whites, like yourself, PG, may not feel that you owe Detroiters anything, but you do. You owe Detroiters respect and the understanding that we Detroiters did not get into this terrible situation by ourselves. Whites had a hand in it too.
Healing the riffs that affect blacks and whites may take decades, but it has to happen for this region to heal. The majority of young whites on this forum seem to be trying to mend the fences. That's a start.
(Message edited by royce on October 08, 2007) |
Rhymeswithrawk
Member
Username: Rhymeswithrawk
Post Number: 946
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 2:01 am: | |
1) Racism: This is a huge problem in Detroit. As long as wealthier white folk continue to diss and FEAR downtown Detroit in favor of vanilla bland strip malls and continue to buy their homes in a gluttonous land sprawl, then Detroit and its beautiful basic infrastructure will never revitalize.
2) Public Transportation: Detroit's single minded investment in the automobile created urban deserts and huge ugly pavements that is a cause of a deteriorated sense of community. Detroit needs to invest in a public transportation that is "cool" for anybody to use--not just the down trodden.
3) The Industrial economy is so passe. Did Detroit ever try...really try...to diversify the economy in this region instead of depending wholly on the likes of GM, Ford and Chrysler?
I agree with all of these, but I'd say schools and crime are among them, both certainly a bigger problem than transportation. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3442
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 9:36 am: | |
quote:Perfectgentleman, you and others like you just want to wash you hands clean of any actions committed by whites regarding the plight of Detroit and its citizens. The riot of '67 was a result of oppressive practices whites placed upon blacks, especially the racist Detroit police department. If the department represented the racial make-up of the city, would the riot have still happened? I'm not sure but at least some black folks would have had some police jobs that whites folks got because of unfair hiring practices.
The department DOES represent the community now and crime in Detroit is higher. You got what you wanted. Blacks run everything in Detroit. If a black criminal commits a crime in the city his victim is most likely to be black. The cop who arrests him will probably be black, and the legal system who tries him will be majority black. Where is the racism?
You claim that the guilt of white oppressors in the past transfers to me and my kids? Forgetting for a moment that is racist, by doing that you are also conferring the "slave victim" role black folks of the past endured onto black people today. You are programming them to believe that their salvation lies in the hands of their "oppressors" and not with themselves. Blacks are 7 times more likely to commit a crime than whites, and the victims of those crimes are usually black. Add to that the 70% out of wedlock birth rate and the propensity of inner city blacks to drop out of school, blacks are oppressing themselves and each other far more effectively than whitey ever could.
quote:You're one of those "pull yourself up from you're boot straps" kind of people that thinks it always just that easy.
Actually that is the only thing that works and that has made this a great country. I admit it is not easy. My parents lived in poverty when they started out and later so did I. We never defined ourselves as poor though and we never went on government aid of any kind. It wasn't easy but I worked my way out of it. Life is never easy.
quote:Blacks, rarely had enough capital to open businesses or own property.
Nobody has a "right" to open a business. You want to open a business? Do it. Plan on working 60-80 hour weeks. If you can't get money from the bank (which most businesses do not when they start out) then start it out as a side business while you are working somewhere else. Bootstrap it.
quote:You owe Detroiters respect and the understanding that we Detroiters did not get into this terrible situation by ourselves. Whites had a hand in it too.
As I said, no amount of racism on the part of whites can be causing the aforementioned self-destructive behavior that is all too common among blacks in the city.
On the contrary, white folks would be ecstatic if black folks would succeed. Of course any time we give an opinion on the matter we are basically told we are racist oppressors by people like you and that we don't understand anything.
Fair enough then. Blacks have the run of the table in Detroit; there is plenty of cheap land and buildings to be had. The only thing stopping them from making something out of it is in their own mind thanks to people like you.
quote:Healing the riffs that affect blacks and whites may take decades, but it has to happen for this region to heal. The majority of young whites on this forum seem to be trying to mend the fences. That's a start.
I am all for mending fences, but it wasn't me who broke the fence to begin with. I was not brought up in a racist household. I was not a slave owner nor were my descendants. As long as you are keeping score, I and many of my friends and family have been the victims of black criminals on numerous occasions. Should I judge YOU by the actions of THOSE PEOPLE?
You seem to define "mending fences" as everyone must agree with you. Unfortunately, your world view is not producing positive results that I can see.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on October 08, 2007) |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3427
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 9:42 am: | |
quote:I agree with all of these, but I'd say schools and crime are among them, both certainly a bigger problem than transportation.
There are bad schools and crime problems in just about every large American city. Detroit, though, is the most economically segregated metropolitan area in the nation. When you have several hundred thousand people without reliable access to a job, that's a problem.
One might think that crime would decrease if there were more economic opportunity. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 471
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 11:03 am: | |
Quote: "People go to jail for misdemeanors, you know."
Any statistics of how many people in jail for marijuana possession? I'm going to guess "0". They rarely send people to jail for felonies anymore. The fact is the people in jail, belong there. And many require longer incarceration times than funds are allowing. This whole legalize drugs and clean out the prisons is just nonsense. Wether their crimes involved drugs is not the issue, it's that they committed crimes in the first place and often habitually. These are folks who have a total disregard for the law and disregard any barriers in society to achieve their intentions. Criminals. If it wasn't drugs it would be some other illegal activity as their "mile-long" rap sheets indicate. That's why they are in prison.
So the "good dude" who just got caught with some dope clogging our prison systems, just doesn't hold water.
Alcohol and Tobacco? Neither are as addictive or damaging as cocaine and meth. People can smoke and drink on a regular basis and live long lives if they're lucky. A lot of people can smoke or drink for years and stop anytime they want. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1785
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 11:17 am: | |
I agree with all of these, but I'd say schools and crime are among them, both certainly a bigger problem than transportation.
Believe it or not, transportation is the biggest problem in Detroit. It's really the most striking difference between it and any other city that has ever been above the 1.5M citizen mark.
Matter of fact, isn't Detroit the only city that was once above 1.5 million residents that doesn't still have a population above 1.5M? |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 473
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 11:40 am: | |
Quote: "Believe it or not, transportation is the biggest problem in Detroit."
I don't believe it. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1786
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 11:43 am: | |
I don't believe it.
Well all I can say is that I'm glad you aren't the decision maker. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3453
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 11:43 am: | |
quote:Believe it or not, transportation is the biggest problem in Detroit.
No it isn't. Public safety is. You can have great public transportation and still have massive problems. NYC has this and that city was dying before Giuliani turned it around. The subways were there but they weren't safe.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on October 08, 2007) |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1787
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 11:46 am: | |
NYC started to turn around much before Giuliani got there.
Furthermore, the transportation system here is the lifeline of this city. It would be nothing without it.
(Message edited by iheartthed on October 08, 2007) |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3429
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 11:48 am: | |
quote:No it isn't. Public safety is. You can have great public transportation and still have massive problems. NYC has this and that city was dying before Giuliani turned it around. The subways were there but they weren't safe.
Well, you could spend an eternity building a crime-free utopia, and people still won't be able to get to jobs. Do the math.
Detroit doesn't lag behind because of crime--which exists everywhere. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1275
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:12 pm: | |
Quote-
"Even today when people complain about vacant buildings downtown and why don't the black city government do something about it, their ownership is mostly privately owned by whites. Neither the city nor a handful of blacks own these buildings. Show me, PG, the number of lofts and condos being developed or built in and around downtown Detroit that are being developed by black developers."
Royce, you can't have it both ways. In the same paragraph you blame whites for abandoned buildings AND re-development. Well, which is it? Is whitey letting the city die or is he rebuilding redeveloping it? Make up your seemingly befuddled mind.
No PG, Royce seems to define "mending fences" as all white people accepting complete and total responsibility for the state of Detroit (Baltimore, Philadelphia, New Orleans, East St Louis as well). Whites must also accept complete and total responsibility for the actions of all African American criminals (However, none of the credit for African Americans who have succeeded, they did it in spite of whitey). Then it appears he would like all white people to contribute monetarily for the advancement of African Americans.
Royce, if African Americans want to get in on the ground floor of something, they should be buying up the incredibly cheap land and properties in Detroit. Are they? If not, will the suburbanites be blamed when 30 years from now the city has rebounded and Detroit's citizens didn't profit from the increase in property values? Will there be an onerous non-resident transfer or property tax applied to redistribute the wealth?
Silly, short sighted, posts. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1789
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:16 pm: | |
Silly, short sighted, posts.
Attracting a silly short-sighted response. Much of the complaints about the slow progress of downtown redevelopment has been because of current property owners (predominantly white suburbanites) sitting on properties, doing nothing with them, and asking for selling prices well above what the properties were worth. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1276
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:18 pm: | |
Really DAninDC. It hasn't hurt Los Angeles. There are many other large Metro areas with very little transport (outside of buses), that illustrate the point, but, LA is by far the most glaring example of how wrong your statement is.
Do the math. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1790
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:20 pm: | |
Then why is LA building a system now? |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1277
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:21 pm: | |
Well, IHD, why isn't a member of the overwhelmingly black populous stepping up and redevloping these sites? You haven't answered or addressed anything. Just blame whitey for owning land that he can't sell because no one wants it. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1791
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:23 pm: | |
Why is the onus on the black community to save Detroit? |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3454
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:24 pm: | |
quote:If not, will the suburbanites be blamed when 30 years from now the city has rebounded and Detroit's citizens didn't profit from the increase in property values?
A good example of this is the tech boom. There are good jobs available even in this area for compute programmers. This is something that the inner city black folks ignore. You don't even need a college degree and you can eventually make a six figure salary, I am living proof of that. A couple of books from the library can get you started.
Yet, we are importing programmers from India because many people here do not pursue that career. Of course you do need to at least graduate from high school and be able to read and do basic math. It would also help if you didn't have a criminal record or a child you have no means to support.
quote:Why is the onus on the black community to save Detroit?
Maybe because they run Detroit and they are in the majority? Just a guess. I wouldn't expect the black community to save Holland Michigan but that is just me. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1278
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:27 pm: | |
What a dumb response IHD. Is LA a successful city? You think about it. Did they get there with out mass transit? you think about it. Obviously mass transit is neither "necessary" nor "sufficient" to stimulate economic growth. They may want it now, but they didn't need it to get where they are. God your responses are getting dopier instead of better. It's not just LA- Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, the list is quite long.
Please, when the smoke comes out of your ears, it is time to give your brain a rest. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1279
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:27 pm: | |
because that is who lives there you dolt! |