  Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2359 Registered: 06-2006 |
I was talking to a co-worker today who is from India but has lived most of his adult life in Europe, before moving here (to metro-Detroit) three years ago. He was telling me how in Europe, you are completely dependent on mass transit, how you have to plan your schedule around it, and how this sometimes makes life inconvenient. He said, "It's not like here, where you just hop in your car and go wherever your want whenever you want to." I was sort of surprised to hear this as I' not accustomed to hearing people who tout how great our region's automobile oriented transit culture is... Then he said how in Europe, even with the limited driving that you do, traffic is really horrible and even when it isn't, the speed limits are still painfully slow... I found his comments interesting because, growing up in our car culture, we tend to forget how liberating it is to be able to go where you want at your own leisure.... conventional wisdom tells us that SE MI needs better mass transit in order to attract young talent, I suppose after talking to this guy I realize that not everyone prefers the same thing... I'm not ready to give up on my belief that an efficient mass transit system would benefit SE MI in a lot of ways...but I did find his perspective interesting and it made me think twice about taking our automobile culture for granted.. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3445 Registered: 10-2003 |
Left unstated in your co-workers comments is that cities in Europe are eminently more walkable because they are densely developed. You can get many, if not most, of the things you need within a short walk, whereas here, you're forced to drive for something as trivial as a loaf of bread. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 227 Registered: 08-2006 |
He's right. Having a dependency on mass transit is the same as having a dependency on your automobile. I think the key here is that a mass transit system needs to work in flux with other forms of transportation, like personal automobiles, bicycles, and air transport. The systems need to be interconnected--like the "park and ride" stations. The problem here is that we rely solely on automobiles and a shoddy-at-best bus system. Adding some kind of regional rail system would alleviate all traffic by allowing more people to travel short distances without having to hop in their car. | ||
The_ed Member Username: The_ed Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2007 |
I depend on public transportation in Detroit to get to work and home again....5 days a week. We have a decent system but I think Chicago has a better one. What we need to do is (here it comes) merge SMART with DOT. I know this has come up before with the late-great Coleman Young and others, but that would help folks a great deal as long as the fare doesn't go up again. | ||
6nois Member Username: 6nois Post Number: 536 Registered: 11-2006 |
Its wonderful that your coworker can choose to live a car oriented lifestyle in Detroit, the only lifestyle there really. But it would be nice to have options for transportation, and to be able to take a rail line to where ever. Just because a city has mass transit doesn't mean you can never drive again its just giving choices about how to get around, which is a good thing. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 228 Registered: 08-2006 |
The_ed, that's a start. So is expanding Amtrak to provide continual commuter service from Flint-->Pontiac-->Detroit and Ann Arbor-->Dearborn-->Detroit. | ||
Treelock Member Username: Treelock Post Number: 224 Registered: 03-2005 |
Driving everywhere = overrated. People here have no idea how nice it is to be able to walk places – to the store, post office, dry cleaners, whatever. I've never lived in Europe, but I did live in NYC and I loved using the subway and having options within walking distance. I'd never want to use my own vehicle for driving around in that city, only to get away for vacations. Sure, it's nice to be able to go anywhere you want here whenever you want, but what good is it when it's 25 miles away and you're sick to death of driving everywhere? Anyone else find driving to be a sometimes draining experience? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2797 Registered: 10-2003 |
There was a recent survey done in Europe. People there also want a car based culture. A majority of them don't want to use mass transit. from: http://wardsauto.com/ar/eu_pol l_transport/index.html (You need an account.) quote: | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1820 Registered: 04-2006 |
^Tell them we'll swap Paris for Detroit then. | ||
Aarne_frobom Member Username: Aarne_frobom Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2005 |
". . . You're forced to drive for something as trivial as a loaf of bread." Is bread trivial? Food is only trivial to someone whose basic needs are entirely provided for. How many transit enthusiasts have carried a week's food for, say, a family of five home on foot or on the bus? Immigrants, some of whom have endured real privation, immediately grasp how essential auto travel is to bettering their lives. People trying to gain a foothold in a new culture don't have time to waste walking and waiting for the bus. The auto is their key to economic mobility as well as geographic mobility. And before anyone says that if there were a grocery store on every corner you wouldn't have to carry a week's food at once, remember that both parents are usually working, and those three kids will be along when one of them is shopping. That means four bus fares, and lots of counting heads every time they get on and off. And you've still got to carry the bread. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1821 Registered: 04-2006 |
Is bread trivial? Food is only trivial to someone whose basic needs are entirely provided for. How many transit enthusiasts have carried a week's food for, say, a family of five home on foot or on the bus? Immigrants, some of whom have endured real privation, immediately grasp how essential auto travel is to bettering their lives. Pure rhetoric. Since moving to NYC, I have done ALL of my grocery shopping without the use of a car. Why? Not because I was poor. I had a car. I did that because there were no parking lots at any of the grocery stores. That along with having 3 grocery stores within a 5 block radius. Yes, 3 grocery stores within a 5 block radius. How many metro Detroiters live within a 5 block radius of 3 grocery stores? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4244 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bake your own bread. The once-common baking concept isn't exactly novel. Sheesh! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4245 Registered: 10-2004 |
How many groceries nearby in SW Detroit? Let's see... Within a mile (comfortable walking distance for obese Detroiters), there are five regular groceries plus over twice as many convenience stores, bakeries, and drug stores. Add an additional quarter to half mile, and you can add two more groceries plus a number of other, smaller stores. And then there are bars and restaurants, etc. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 977 Registered: 09-2005 |
My wife and I have a car but we still prefer to do our grocery shopping on foot. We use cloth shopping bags and backpacks to carry the groceries back. We also have 2 large stores about 5 blocks away from us. Of course we can do this because we live downtown. If we were living in the burbs things would be a lot different. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10423 Registered: 10-2003 |
I can see how living dependant upon mass transit would make the car culture very appealing. The opportunity that many American cities have is that they can have both options. | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 196 Registered: 10-2005 |
LY- a mile is comfortable for an "obese Detroiter"? There are quite a few "obese" people in my building. From my observance, simply making it up a flight of stairs is nearly an insurmountable obstacle. I would pay money to watch one attempt a mile walk to the grocery store and back. (Message edited by higgs1634 on October 09, 2007) | ||
Diehard Member Username: Diehard Post Number: 148 Registered: 03-2005 |
I've done some Eurail travelling and always marvelled at how they seem to have it all figured out. Unless you're headed to a cottage in the countryside or hauling furniture, pretty much everything IS accessible by train, bus or ferry. Some of the other advantages are that Europeans aren't obese like us (they walk to the subway or ride bikes, rather than just a waddle from the kitchen into an attached garage), and drunk driving and price-gouging auto insurance aren't nearly the big political issues they are here. Believe it or not, it's nice knowing you don't have to have a car to survive. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10427 Registered: 10-2003 |
I will say of the times I have been in Europe I have absolutely loved being able to get all over by train and subway. It seems like an amazing system to me but my time there is on vacation, not living normal day to day life. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3519 Registered: 03-2006 |
Not that anyone cares, but I would never use mass transit even if it was available. I need the flexibility to come and go as I please, run errands, pick up my kids, etc. My time is valuable so basing my day on when buses are running is not going to happen. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on October 09, 2007) | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 662 Registered: 05-2005 |
You car-loving idiots fail to mention the 43,000 Americans that were killed last year by automobiles. Oh, and then there was the 43,000 that were killed by automobiles the year before that, and the 43,000 that were killed the year before that, and... Oh, and then there is the 43,000 that will be killed by automobiles THIS year! Oh and then there is the 250,000 Americans that were maimed by automobiles last year! And the 250,000 that were maimed the the year before! And, well, the year before that...And THIS year! Guess what, car-idiots?! 250,000 more Americans maimed by automobile use! Gotta love "car culture" - a plague on mankind worse than famine, pestilence and war! | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3446 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Funny that. I don't own a car, yet I have all the flexibility I could want. And it doesn't take me all weekend to get errands run, either, since I can do them on the way home from work, often making several stops on the same block. Sitting in traffic jams doesn't seem to offer much in the way of "choice", "mobility", or "flexibility" as far as I'm concerned. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4247 Registered: 10-2004 |
Perhaps, most Americans don't know that a typical European country is about as small as one average-sized US state. And their provinces (or states) are the size of a typical state's county or two. Population densities as high as many places in Europe can sustain their mass transit systems. And they too use buses in addition to trains for their transit. Don't buy into all that passenger/commuter rail BS. Trains don't go everywhere, as some would have you believe. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10430 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: That is true but their different options are coordinated very well. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3447 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah, don't buy into that BS. It's so much easier to drive 30 miles to work, 5 miles out of your way to run errands on the way home, 10 miles out to dinner, and an hour drive to a concert. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3522 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: So you have the flexibility to do the things you need as long as they are on the bus route? That's funny too. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3448 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Well, when you consider that I have two subway lines and six bus routes within a block of my apartment (not to mention the places within walking distance), I'd bet the farm I have more flexibility, choice, and mobility than you. I've done the completely automobile-dependent lifestyle, and I thought it sucked. All it did was wear me out and make me fat and lazy. | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 198 Registered: 10-2005 |
PG.. I think what you're missing in Dan's statement (and with which I happen to agree with Dan here) is that yes, most things are along the route as the "stuff" grew around the transit lines. That is why mass transit will never work here. 50 years of sprawl have made a coherent system impossible without a massive structural realignment. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3526 Registered: 03-2006 |
To each is own, I don't like buses or subways and my travel needs vary on a daily basis. The bus is not going anywhere that I want to live either. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2799 Registered: 10-2003 |
Once again you are all missing the big picture. This argument is strictly about convenience and the cost of that convenience. Owning a car in most European and large east coast cities is very expensive. Parking, insurance and gas will cost you a small fortune. A garage for a car is an extreme luxury in a place where land values are the most expensive in the world. Everyone would choose a car over mass transit if it was free and came with no environmental byproducts. Most would choose mass transit if cars were 10 times more expensive. Here in this country we are lucky to have a high enough standard of living where most people can afford cars. Our cost to own a car is nowhere near as high as it is in europe. We also need to travel much greater distances in our daily lives. In Europe I lived without a car. I couldn't afford one on the money I was making there. It made no sense financially. Transit was more convenient than it is here. I personally would not want to go back to a time where I couldn't use my car to get wherever I wanted to go. I wouldn't move back to Europe unless I made more money so I could afford a car. A majority of People want their own cars. Hence the US economy based on cars. The limiting factor is the cost. If Gas was $10 a gallon everyone would be screaming for mass transit. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1824 Registered: 04-2006 |
To each is own, I don't like buses or subways and my travel needs vary on a daily basis. The bus is not going anywhere that I want to live either. Which is fair, but beside the point. The point is will investment of the system be economically beneficial to the region as a whole. Will it render areas that were abandoned as attractive living spaces once again? |
