 
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3454
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 10:36 am: |    |
quote:
I was simply pointing out that I have the option of walking to several places and easy bus access and use of my car.
I could be describing any number of A2 neighorhoods because A2 is essentially a town of neighborhoods. But apparently "walkability" only couints if it fits the detroityes agenda.
I don't think anyone is arguing that you can hoof it to the strip mall on Plymouth Road, or that there's a bus stop nearby. What happens when you want to go beyond the strip mall, though? If you want to take the bus, do you ever do so without checking the schedule first?
Yes, it's great to have a couple stores within a short walk. But you can't tell me your neighborhood is "walkable". That area was completely designed for cars.
THIS is a walkable neighborhood:
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10438
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 10:38 am: | |
Dan - Please remove those pice. The thought of that type of density scares people in SE Michigan, |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 481
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 10:41 am: | |
I have to wonder about all these people that are certain a mass transit system will fix everything in Detroit, would they ever even ride it? I wouldn't. The European is spot on, we take the ability to hop in and go anytime we want very much for granted. If you want some bus schedule dictating your activities, you must not have much to do or have very low expectations in life, or both. I'll take my freedom. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10439
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 10:44 am: | |
Who said a mass transit system would fix everything. Quite a stretch.
I would be a frequent rider of a mass transit system and would probably keep both cars in my household.
quote:If you want some bus schedule dictating your activities, you must not have much to do or have very low expectations in life, or both
I think we have a winner for dumbest comment on this thread.
Maybe if you feel you need a car to enjoy life you have some backwards priorities. |
Upinottawa
Member
Username: Upinottawa
Post Number: 980
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 10:48 am: | |
Do cars really provide freedom? If so, one may have a very low expectation of freedom.
(Ironically, in a city cars can only go where the government allows them to go, i.e. where the government builds the road.) |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3566
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 10:56 am: | |
Clearly cars provide freedom folks. This town was built on that premise. You all seem to think that the car culture was forced on all of us. Please, that is not how it happened. People CHOSE to have personal transportation and most of us still do.
Some of you might like waiting around in the cold for some stinky bus while you juggle all of your belongings, but not me. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10440
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:02 am: | |
quote:Some of you might like waiting around in the cold for some stinky bus while you juggle all of your belongings, but not me.
That is because you are so much better than everyone here.
The point you are missing is that nobody is saying what we currently have is a great option. Last I checked a real mass transit solution is not predicated on 'stinky buses' and poor scheduling. It's unfortunate that so many in SE Michigan think that the current DDOT/SMART situation is reflective of what mass transit can be. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3455
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:04 am: | |
quote:Please, that is not how it happened. People CHOSE to have personal transportation and most of us still do.
Where I live, people CHOOSE to have personal transportation too. We can also CHOOSE just about any other means of getting around.
PG, what happens if you CHOOSE another means of getting around other than automobile? |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2573
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:05 am: | |
" If you want some bus schedule dictating your activities, you must not have much to do or have very low expectations in life, or both. I'll take my freedom."
What you don't understand is that, in a viable transit system, the bus/train schedule DOES NOT dictate your activities. The buses and trains run so frequently that, if you miss one, the next one is only five to 10 minutes away.
That's not a long time to wait at all.
A good transit system (see NYC, Chicago, Toronto, DC, and nearly any European big city) tailors itself to the needs of the public; riders don't need to meet the restraints of infrequent schedules (a la Detroit).
I believe that many people who are so adamant about driving their own cars are actually acting out their own control issues. They have a need for control. |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2685
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:06 am: | |
How am I lying to myself jt 1? I really don't get it.I can walk to those places.I know that there are places you can't walk to where you live.No place is perfect. And frankly it is safer where I live.
I am not making any special definition jt1.Walkable to me means being able to walk out the door and have accessability to many things.I have that and so does all of Ann Arbor.
It is unfair to compare A2 to Detroit because Detroit is a big city.But things are backwards;Ann Arbor has more options in many areas than Detroit does.
Once my car broke down in Detrroit and the cops( wayne co) told me not to walk in the neighborhood but to walk down the main drag for my own safety.............is that a walkable plethora of options? |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10441
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:10 am: | |
quote:I am not making any special definition jt1.Walkable to me means being able to walk out the door and have accessability to many things.I have that and so does all of Ann Arbor.
I guess our defintion of many things is very different. I think you are lying to yourself on the number of options that you claim to have that makes your area walkable.
Many areas of AA are truly walkable but many are not. If the stores you have access to make it walkable than damn near every suburb with a couple strip malls could be defined as walkable.
I guess we will disagree on all of the options that you have. I know the area very well and it is not what I would consider walkable.
Now that said I am not saying every part or most parts of Detroit are walkable but for you to claim that your area or 'all of Ann Arbor' is walkable is just non-sense. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1833
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:11 am: | |
Do you know what is the most glaring hole in that story ? Look at this picture:
Right next to the front door of what used to be the Norwest Theater is a bank. This bank has ATMs right on the sidewalk. No bulletproof glass vestibule, or anything like that. It has been that way since I can remember. It has definitely been that way since well before the Norwest closed.
That bank is still there (although currently named LaSalle, and soon to be renamed Bank of America) and the ATMs are still just as they were when that picture was taken. So how did the bank come to the conclusion that this area is safe enough to place ATM machines on the sidewalk, and 10 feet away, the Norwest claims they have to buzz in patrons because the area is too dangerous?
Maybe if the owner of the Norwest had installed proper lighting in his parking lots, patrons wouldn't have been so afraid to park in his lot? Or maybe if he had done proper maintenance on the building, people would have been more attracted to patronizing this establishment. Remember, he claimed to be doing "renovations" on the Mercury Theater as well, and we see what happened to them both. Let's also keep in mind that the neighborhood around this theater is economically on par with many of the affluent suburbs in metro Detroit. This isn't Davison and Linwood. The surrouding neighborhoods are filled with houses priced in the $200K range and above.
The last time I went to that theater, plaster was hanging from the ceiling and the seats made creek noises so loud that it disturbed the movie. In fact, it looked almost identical to the way it looked 3 or 4 years after it closed "for renovations"!
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Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2574
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:12 am: | |
"Clearly cars provide freedom folks. This town was built on that premise."
Exactly right. This town was built following a wrongheaded paradigm. There is an uncanny similarity between Detroit and L.A. in terms of how the overall metropolitan area is laid out (dead/dying center city, satellite suburban communities that often have their own centers, cars/freeways as primary transportation means, sprawl, strip malls, subdivisions that turn in on themselves with wildly curving, non-connecting streets and cul-de-sacs).
And, it's generally agreed that L.A. represents the worst in urban planning. |
Birwood
Member
Username: Birwood
Post Number: 25
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:14 am: | |
My late father worked for the DSR, Detroit Streets & Railway, later D-Dot and in the early 1970s was a member of the joint Study Group that did the original study on the combination Bus and Lightrail System for SE Michigan and the proposed Woodward Subway
At that time SEMTA had a lightrail line that ran from Pontiac to the New Center/Downtown areas and had hopes to expand the rail portion of its service area toward Monroe, Ann Arbor, Metro Airport, Brighton, Utica, and Port Huron utilizing exhisting railroad track and using the New Center area as the conecting loop, much like the loop in Chicago. The plan was also to use Buses as the cross connectors and feeders to the rail system. The plan had all the new and exhisting routes mapped out, transfer points, milage, travel times caluclated and estimated project costs but this would have required a merger between D-Dot and SEMTA.
Also at the time Mayor Young wanted a Woodward Subway, and had planned to get big federal bucks under the mass transit approprations but he wanted the subway to run only from downtown to 8 Mile Rd. and that cost was almost as much as the Rail/Bus plan.
I'd like to know any of the paper work from this study exhists today and could be applied to discussions being held today rather than someone trying to reinvent the wheel |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 482
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:19 am: | |
Quote: "Some of you might like waiting around in the cold for some stinky bus while you juggle all of your belongings, but not me."
I simply don't have that luxury. We Americans spend more time at work and working than any other peoples on the planet. I'm always running ten minutes late. And much of it do or die it seems. Wait on a bus for an hour? Not going to happen. Jt1, that may seem foreign and dumb to you, but it's reality for most.
PG, right again. The culture looked upon riding mass transit and equated it with not being able to afford any other means. And it's still much like that today. Car ownership and in multiples is a symbol of social class. Ride a bus to a job interview, isn't favorably impressing anyone. How many employers ask "Do you have a car?" The answer to this tells them much. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3571
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:19 am: | |
Clearly if the demand for mass transit was as overwhelming as you all claim, we would have more of it. I must say the only place I hear this on this forum. I don't hear people lamenting the lack of mass transit in my everyday life.
I am not saying transit alternatives to automobiles shouldn't exist. Unfortunately the track record of government in providing them sucks in many respects. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10444
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:21 am: | |
quote:Wait on a bus for an hour? Not going to happen. Jt1, that may seem foreign and dumb to you, but it's reality for most.
Again, the DDOT/SAMRT model is not typical mass transit. Have you ever been somewhere were the mass transit system works well?
So I will say again for you and others that have issues with this:
THE CURRENT OPTIONS IN SE MICHIGAN DO NOT REPRESENT A FUNCTIONING MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM!•••• |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 2780
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:22 am: | |
you lead a cloistered life then pg. try getting away from your little group of monks |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1834
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:24 am: | |
Wait on a bus for an hour? Not going to happen. Jt1, that may seem foreign and dumb to you, but it's reality for most.
And by that statement, it's pretty clear that you've never experience a truly efficient mass transit system. That's okay, it isn't really your fault. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3572
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:24 am: | |
Sstashmoo -
Agreed. I can't think of any time in my life where my job and lifestyle would have allowed for use of mass transit.
You are correct in the fact that our work schedules vary much more than the past as well as the need to commute to different areas for our jobs that are not serviced by mass transit.
Arby -
You know nothing of my life so keep your bilge to yourself. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1835
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:25 am: | |
Sometimes I wonder did the auto companies put anti-mass transit subliminal messages in their TV ads or something... |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2686
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:27 am: | |
Iheart the relevant thing was ..."persistent crime"... in the area
Jt1 I am not gonna argue with you.I could post pictures of Ann Arbor simlar on scale to what Dan in dc did.Ann Arbor is as walkable as anywhere.
I suppose I just have to accept that this forum is fundamentally dishonest and that if one does not follow the agenda then one is simply wrong. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3573
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:30 am: | |
quote:Sometimes I wonder did the auto companies put anti-mass transit subliminal messages in their TV ads or something...
No, in the post war years having a car was "where it was at." It was a symbol of upward mobility, and gas was cheap. People LOVED their cars and many just drove around for hours, exploring the landscape. Before long the cities began to reflect this. Detroit was more than happy to fill the demand. You all know the history.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on October 10, 2007) |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3456
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:35 am: | |
quote:Car ownership and in multiples is a symbol of social class.
It's also a symbol of people who invest their money poorly. Guaranteed negative rate of return, anyone? All yours, starting at only $6000 a year for a very basic car. Think of what that could do for you with compound interest....
quote:Ride a bus to a job interview, isn't favorably impressing anyone.
I've done it, and I still ride the subway/bus to job sites. Sometimes I even walk, God forbid.
If an employer hires me based on what I drive (or don't drive), then he's probably an asshole to work for anyway.
quote:How many employers ask "Do you have a car?"
None that I've ever had.
I'm kind of curious to know what the agenda is against establishing a functioning transit system in Detroit. I mean, if you want to drive, pay for gas, and waste time in traffic, that's your prerogative. I suppose I don't understand why you seek to deny *choices* to other people who would like, or need, them. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1836
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:37 am: | |
People LOVED their cars and many just drove around for hours, exploring the landscape. Before long the cities began to reflect this. Detroit was more than happy to fill the demand. You all know the history.
So they just LOVED their cars and suddenly discovered hundreds of interstate highways had magically appeared for them to "explore"? |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3457
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:37 am: | |
quote:Ann Arbor is as walkable as anywhere.
CENTRAL Ann Arbor (downtown and the University) is walkable. Beyond the core, it's the same suburban shithole of automotive sewers as everywhere else. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10445
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:38 am: | |
CL - You are so full of bs it is ridiculous.
Where did I say that no parts of AA are walkable? Most of the areas around downtown are very walkable. There are other areas throughout the city that are walkable. To claim that all of AA or your area is walkable is dishonest. To claim that AA as a whole is as walkable as anywhere is a straight up lie.
I really enjoy the city of AA but I am looking at it as a realist. Having traveled through a big portion of this country I can assure you that AA is not as walkable as anywhere. That is just a silly statment to make.
AA is one of the more walkable areas of SE Michigan but it does not compare with many, many, many places in this country.
quote:I suppose I just have to accept that this forum is fundamentally dishonest and that if one does not follow the agenda then one is simply wrong.
I would say that you are being extremely dishonest in this case. To make the claims that you have are either being dishonest with yourself or outright lies. I really don't care which one as anyone that claims 'all of AA is walkable' and 'AA is as walkable as anywhere' is flat out wrong.
Of course if your agenda is called out or your 'facts' are wrong you just stomp away and claim there is an agenda against you or your city. The funny thing is that I think AA is a great city and you still insist on getting your panties in a bunch if anyone says it is anything short of paradise on earth.
PS - What happened to your repsonse when I showed the facts that Saginaw is indeed more violent than Detroit. You called someone a liar on that thread but never responded when the facts showed you were incorrect. |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 1358
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:52 am: | |
Since clearly most people in this thread do not read, I will repeat a few things I've said.
quote:Interesting factoid: 70% of CTA riders here in Chicago are choice riders.
quote:I don't plan my life around anything. I leave when I feel like it, secure in the knowledge that there will be a train coming by within a reasonable time.
On my commute to work, a train comes every 3-5 minutes. Off-peak weekdays are around 7-8, I think, and even Sunday night service is every 10 minutes until midnight, when it goes to every 15 until 2:15am. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3578
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:54 am: | |
quote:So they just LOVED their cars and suddenly discovered hundreds of interstate highways had magically appeared for them to "explore"?
The highways of course were built based on demand as the 2 lane country roads became overcrowded. I still prefer the state highways and country roads myself.
Again, if folks were so worried about mass transit and government could provide it efficiently, we would have more of it. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 483
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 12:00 pm: | |
Quote: "I'm kind of curious to know what the agenda is against establishing a functioning transit system in Detroit."
No agenda, just hate to see more tax dollars wasted on grandiose projects that no one will use. Our people mover should be the poster child for wasted public funding. The realities are for most of us confused over-worked stiffs, we have no schedule that can be paralleled with another. You may have that luxury, most in this city don't. One thing no one has mentioned is how mass-transit will mesh with our crime problems here. Think some young mother and her kids is going to put her or her loved ones in jeapordy at the scrutiny of some of these thugs just to go to the store. Don't think the opportunists wouldn't use mass transit as a vehicle to ply their trade. Sitting ducks. The city is a long way from being safe. THAT is a much higher priority than relieving traffic congestion that incidently doesn't even exist presently.
In case you missed it, marauding gangs and violent assaults is what killed the whole Bob-lo theme park. Nobody would ride the boats. People getting mugged and stabbed, etc. It died due to crime. No reason other than that. The brunt of their business came from people WHO DROVE THEIR CAR across to Amhertsberg. |