  Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 863 Registered: 12-2006 |
OK, Washington is maybe not the perfect example; but you can look at DC in the 1980s - and remember the Federal government was still located there at the time - and more or less it was a disaster from border to border. The redevelopment of other urban communities has keyed on a great many things; it is a very complicated business of making a million little dots look like something big and nice, as with Lowell's painting of the house. One of the things is to have businessmen sufficiently interested in the urban core to take on projects, which we have here with the Ilitch family, Chuck Forbes, Karmanos and so forth. Another thing is some structural benefit around which one can promote redevelopment; I would argue the Detroit River is our best in that category. Another thing is a holistic approach to transportation, linking walkability, automobile use, transit, intercity transportation (such as airports) and so on, and that is where I think our biggest gap is compared to any other big city you care to name. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 487 Registered: 02-2007 |
JT1 wrote: "Proof please on Boblo. " http://cec.chebucto.org/ClosPa rk/Boblo.html From the page: " But just as the park was turning around, they began to have problems with Detroit gangs. In one May 1988 incident, after numerous fights had broken out in the park, The Ontario Provincial Police were brought in to supervise the loading of the ferries back to The United States. The officers wore bullet-proof vests and brandished weapons. The fights did not stop there. A confrontation broke out on one of the ferries, some fighters brandishing knives. Frightened spectators rushed to the opposite side of the boat which caused it to list badly. Many were trampled, some were beaten and/or thrown into the river. As patron numbers dropped during the next few seasons, ferry services were decreased or eliminated with "Ste. Claire's" last voyage on Labour Day of 1991. Admission was raised from $15.95 to $17.50 for adults coming via ferry from The U.S. The park began to be closed on Tuesdays that year starting in mid June. Rides began to be sold in order to keep the park afloat, including in February 1990 the precious antique Mangels-Illions carousel which netted over 1,000,000 from individual-piece sales. "" | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3461 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Which failures are these? Most--if not all--transit systems built and opened since 1970 have exceeded ridership expectations. The DPM hardly qualifies, as it doesn't actually GO anywhere. But, if you want to weight the failure of the DPM over the combined successes of WMATA, BART, DART, San Diego Trolley, MARTA, Hiawatha Line, RTD, MAX, and the Portland Streetcar, that's your prerogative. You guys don't want your tax dollars supporting transit in Detroit, yet you've been supporting systems in other cities and regions for decades. I suppose I should say "thanks", because I absolutely love taking the subway. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 508 Registered: 08-2007 |
Do you people NOT READ, or are you willfully stupid??? Usually, I read; today, I'm willfully stupid: a)I have to wade through all the pissy arguments b)I'm at work. Dan, I mentioned "variables" to DC's turnaround- it's not just governmental presence that's responsible. In your informed opinion, what, beyond mass transit and an established economic foundation, brought about the turnaround from crack city to Shangri-La? DC WAS another Detroit in the 1980s!••• So...you're saying that most tourism ceased, people fled the city in droves, and there was no mass transit at that time? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3462 Registered: 10-2003 |
^^^ Well, the national capital region saw a lot of population growth in the 1990s. Rampant suburban development in NoVA and Montgomery County, MD created a lot of traffic problems, so I think a lot of people wanted to move closer to work. On top of that, you had a central city with a lot of great old housing stock that was CHEAP. In the mid-1990s, you could get a 3 bedroom house on Capitol Hill for around $100,000. The same house today would easily go for six times as much. One thing that helped, as much as I hate to say it, was the Control Board. Congress imposed a board to oversee the District's finances and require balanced budgets. We've had a CFO ever since. The bond rating has gone from "junk" to "A" within about 10 years' time, and there's about $1 billion in the bank. quote: I'm not sure about the levels of tourism, but yes--the others are true. DC is about 300,000 people off its peak population, and in the Eighties, the Metro was still very much under construction. It's still not Shangri-La in a lot of neighborhoods, and there are negatives as in every city. I've been fortunate to witness the transformation of several neighborhoods--some of which were given up for dead--as new development took root around subway stations. The District intentionally took its highway money in the 1960s to build the Metro, knowing it would spark economic development. It took about 40 years for it to get the ball moving, but the results are nothing less than impressive. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 509 Registered: 08-2007 |
^The Metro is one of my favorites outside of Paris; I'm like a little kid when the inbound lights start blinking. I almost moved to DC in the 90's after falling under the spell of the Adams-Morgan neighborhood...had I known housing was so affordable then. What has the economy going there beyond what we've mentioned as a foundation? Detroit desperately needs to diversify, but I still maintain that any city, if it functioned as the nation's capital, would have a much easier comeback. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3610 Registered: 03-2006 |
Danindc - I am glad you like DC, I don't find it "impressive" at all. The massive expansion of our federal government spurred much of the development there, it is not a case study for Detroit whatsoever as we have no equivalent of that here. My sister lives in Silver Spring and the area isn't even that nice although it is tremendously overpriced. Ironically she and her neighbors are fighting a proposed light rail line expansion that has been brewing for years. Seems the residents think it is not necessary and overpriced. There is a train station down the street although her and her husband both use cars to get to their government jobs. They are both libs too, just the kind of people who would normally be FOR mass transit. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on October 10, 2007) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3463 Registered: 10-2003 |
^^^Therefore, the 300,000 people in Detroit without cars don't need to be able to get to jobs. Is that right? Again--your sister *chooses* to drive. She is not required to do so, as she would be if she lived in Detroit. quote: Balancing the city's budget, an improving national economy, and horrible suburban traffic had nothing to do with it whatsoever. Yup--Detroit has nothing quite so big as say, the auto industry. That doesn't really count, does it? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10461 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Odd question to ask PG as he seems to believe they do not exist. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3464 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Just had to follow-up: You ARE aware that Maryland is looking to build an 18-mile freeway for over $3 billion. The State's own report says it will do nothing to relieve congestion, as its supporters claim. Just thought I'd throw that in there. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10462 Registered: 10-2003 |
Roads are an obligatory expense to people like PG whereas mass transit is a luxury that wastes money. The anti-mass transit crowd will never admit how much money is wasted on road expansion and freeway projects. Those dollars just materialize. Of course it seems that most of them think only the poorest people take mass transit and they would never stoop to such a level. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3613 Registered: 03-2006 |
Of course I have never said that we should eliminate the bus system. I realize it is a common technique on this forum to mis-characterize those you disagree with in an attempt to make them sound extreme and cruel. I am not even arguing against all further expansion of mass transit. I am saying that it should be market-driven and not another useless system that goes by a bunch of empty buildings that ends up costing many times what the original estimates were. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10464 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Like road expansion projects? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3465 Registered: 10-2003 |
In order to have a market, you have to have options. Detroit's transportation system is a market right out of the Soviet Bloc. Just because you're not waiting at the bus stop doesn't mean other people aren't. I'd say that 300,000 people without a car is a pretty significant untapped market, wouldn't you? This doesn't even account for people who would rather take a train or bus than drive. Of course, you make a lot of assumptions, PG, yet you seem unwilling to let people even study transit projects so that they are implemented successfully and cost-effectively. What gives? Are you lying through your teeth or just greedy? I mean, you might think you're successful, and make good money. Frankly, the upper classes aren't shit without the people beneath them. And if you can't get the lower and working classes to work, then you don't so much as have a clean toilet in which to shit in your office. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4266 Registered: 10-2004 |
I'd be much more concerned about the 1/3 million in Metro Detroit without jobs and with few prospects of getting any employment than some assumed 300,000 in Detroit without cars. If there were jobs, the vast majority of them, and others, could easily buy a car with their earnings. Cars sell for $200 or so or more at the several local public auto auctions weekly. You'd be surprised at how little some nice, late-model cars and trucks sell for (if there are any buyers, that is) for the vehicles twice a week at the Mannheim auctions for dealers only near Flat Rock or other sites near Detroit. However, for those without available work, there's little hope, and transit is most definitely not needed. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3614 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: Funding for roads comes from the federal government and from gasoline taxes. The people that use the highways in the suburbs like me generally make more money so we pay more income taxes. We also use more gas and pay more taxes on that as well. I don't make the rules as to what roads get built or expanded. It is based on commuter patterns and usage. Mass transit proponents claim that if you just build something even though the demand is not there development will just happen. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10466 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Why would someone need to clean a toilet at his office - his shit smells like roses. | ||
Masterblaster Member Username: Masterblaster Post Number: 93 Registered: 03-2005 |
Oakmangirl wrote: " just don't know that DC is a fair comparison; it's density can be attributed to it being the locus of federal govt.; therefore, it will always have a strong employment and tourism base that feeds a need to maintain superior public transit. We don't have that de facto base." ****************************** *************** Does ST. LOUIS have that "de facto base"???? Does DENVER have that "de facto base"?????? DOES DALLAS have that "de facto base"?????? PORTLAND??? Yet, they have all built/expanded mass transit systems in the past 15 years? If DC is not a good comparison, then try St. Louis. They have built and expanded on their light rail system for 15-20 years. This was a depressed city that lost over half of it population (from 850,000 to 350,000) in 50 years. I have seen a population estimate where St. Louis's population has INCREASED from year 2000!••••••••••••••• I would guess that the investment in their mass transit system has aided in its revival. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3615 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: More childish attacks. I worked my way up from nothing. I worked menial jobs for years and made next to nothing, although I still preferred my POS car to get to work. I am still in the working class unless you want to call a software engineer upper class. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3466 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: So you prefer your car. YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE!••• If you don't drive, you don't get to work, by virtue of you living in Southeast Michigan. quote: Hmmm...the numbers look similar. Is it possible they are ONE AND THE SAME? Why would people without cars be unemployed in Southeast Michigan? It only takes 2-3 hours each way to get from any point in the City to a job in the suburbs. You guys are just hellbent on keeping Detroit in an economic stone age, aren't you? (Message edited by DaninDC on October 10, 2007) | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 511 Registered: 08-2007 |
I don't know much about Dallas or St. Louis; Portland has been eco-conscious back too its boom in the early 90's...Denver has rail? News to me; I last visited 10 years ago when sprawl was taking a stronghold and it was still very car-centric. I wasn't saying Detroit should not have mass transit, but where's our employment base and residential or visitor draw? The auto industry isn't enough, and as we know, impedes progress toward regional transit. All cities have unique variables to consider; I don't find it helpful to compare them. I agree with you that there's likely a symbiotic relationship between civic turnarounds and real mass transit. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3618 Registered: 03-2006 |
Danindc - Detroit is in the stone age for many reasons, if you are saying that lack of mass transit is the main reason then fine. I don't agree. quote: Huh? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4269 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dan, are you being stupid? For those 1/3 million, there's no work anywhere near them OR in the hinterlands. Unless those hinterlands are located elsewhere but not anywhere near here. Detroit's exburbs are hurting also. The BLS lists their laughable unemployment numbers around 175,000, probably higher. And that metric doesn't include the discouraged workers. There haven't been Help Wanted signs in eons around here. Day-labor businesses only fill a small fraction of the daily labor pools of those who still show up at 5 AM. The day-labor places themselves fold for lack of jobs. So, Dan, quit talking as if you have a feel for what's it's like here. You're plain clueless. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 2578 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Mass transit proponents claim that if you just build something even though the demand is not there development will just happen." That's right. Because such development HAS happened in the past when nearby transit is installed. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 512 Registered: 08-2007 |
It only takes 2-3 hours each way to get from any point in the City to a job in the suburbs. A little hyperbole, anyone? I had a hellish reverse commute when I lived in Chicago- 2 hours one way on 2 buses and 1 train, but at least I could read. People do suffer through long public transit commutes too; yes, we may get a little more done, but it still hinders quality of life. You guys are just hellbent on keeping Detroit in an economic stone age, aren't you? Deep breaths, Dan. Why do these become personal attacks? Many (me too) would like to move forward, but with ineffectual state, regional, and local "leaders" interested only in the status quo, how would you suggest we do it? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3623 Registered: 03-2006 |
Great. Lets build ourselves the finest rail line money can buy. Let it go everywhere and anywhere. Oh wait, we're broke. OK. Lets tell Levin and Stabenow that we need the money from the feds, after all we are a net donor in terms of federal taxes anyway. Surely if the idiots in DC can fund these wonderful transit projects all over the country they can spare a few billion for little old Detroit? | ||
Chic_urban_professional_365 Member Username: Chic_urban_professional_365 Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2007 |
Critics of mass-transportation in Metro Detroit (Like PG) often fail to realize that despite the city’s decline, tourism has remained a viable source of revenue contributing an estimated $4.4 billion to the local economy. Over 15 million people visit annually and many navigate the city by bus or taxi. Unfortunately, fostering increased tourism is rarely looked upon as a viable solution in Metro Detroit’s rebirth. Moreover, S.E. Michigan leaders (and many residents) seem to be stuck in some sort of "auto" induced psychosis because they believe there is another single tiered industry that will turn our woes around. Investing in rapid transit would be help to diversify the metro-economy through tourism and eventually lead to other industries attracted by the regions culture. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4270 Registered: 10-2004 |
Good! Now, it's more tourism and gaming to the rescue... And expensive mass or rapid transit projects would make it even better. YAWN zzz | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3627 Registered: 03-2006 |
I am sure that evil suburbanites like me are being counted in that $4.4 billion "tourism" number when I go down to a game, concert or Greektown. | ||
Chic_urban_professional_365 Member Username: Chic_urban_professional_365 Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2007 |
Quote: "Cars sell for $200 or so or more at the several local public auto auctions weekly. You'd be surprised at how little some nice, late-model cars and trucks sell for (if there are any buyers, that is) for the vehicles twice a week at the Mannheim auctions for dealers only near Flat Rock or other sites near Detroit." Automobile maintenance, insurance, fees, and violations are a great contributor of poverty in Metro Detroit. Hypothetic example: {a single mother of three, who earns $8.00 an hour supporting three children. Has a $ 200.00 car/w cracked windshield and get pulled over by police and given a $120.00 ticket in which she can’t afford. Her license get suspended, car impounded, loses job and thus you have ONE example of a wicked cycle consuming metro poor Metro Detroiter's.} |
