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Umcs
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Post Number: 203
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I-96 to 275 north to 6 mile. Or Woodward straight to 6 mile, hang a Michigan left until you go past Haggerty. If you hit corn fields, you've gone too far.
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Jt1
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Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Funniest part is that most Detroiters probably couldn't even give you directions to Northville if they wanted, lol...



But they would all think he is the white devil because that is how they think. They do not like the suburbs and they are just looking to blame the suburbs. They hate everything that is not Detroit.

Did I put enough 'theys' in there to make my point
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Iheartthed
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Post Number: 1921
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Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you hit corn fields, you've gone too far.

Not really, but...
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Umcs
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Post Number: 204
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Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 2:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm being sarcastic lheartted. However, there were cornfields out by Northville's high school back in '02. I think they were bulldozed under for a new development though.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Funniest part is that most Detroiters probably couldn't even give you directions to Northville if they wanted, lol..."

I agree...they wouldn't have a clue.

But I was talking about Livonia, not Northville...I've only been in Northville since earlier this year...was in RO before that, and Ferndale before that...and FH before that...

I guess you could say I like to try different places...and I can't say I've ever encountered hate for Livonia in any of the places I've lived

(Message edited by thejesus on October 18, 2007)
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Mackinaw
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Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone care where N'ville is? I don't know where it is. Somewhere on 275? Is it a problem that Detroiters don't go out to some far fetched suburb?

Maybe Jt1 hates Troy because it's ugly? Because it, like everything built outside the city after WWII, was created with the intent of taking people and resources away from the city?

I don't know if I hate any place that's not Columbus, Ohio, but I will say that Troy means nothing to me; it doesn't mean much to anyone who cares about Detroit, other than the fact that is a place where some Detroiters go to work. On a regional basis, I don't think Troy adds anything redeeming to our area, unless you count the mall (unlike Birmingham which at least has an historic downtown, or Bloomfield with Cranbrook). Somerset is their only draw for outsiders, and as I'd rather shop on main street or on the internet than a mall, I don't go there.

But, back on the subject of this thread, I find this new development interesting. It could give that city some redeeming qualities if they pull it off, and I'd definitely take a look at it. And, as Jt1 started saying before he go lambasted, and as I mentioned a couple days ago, this is good because it's not on the region's fringe, and is not a greenfield development, yet it will attract many people who would otherwise purchase on the fringe because the location is still a safe distance north of 8 Mile.

And having said all of this, no matter how little us Detroit boosters care about Troy (or how much some dislike it), those sentiments should NOT be reciprocated by the residents of Troy. Even if they think their town is the best thing since sliced bread, they ought to know that a better Detroit equals a better Troy and region. More employers, more tourism, better reputation. Any new employers anywhere in metro Detroit help the entire region, because new workers will have the option of living anywhere in the metro area. The best possible scenario is a new employer locating in the city though, so that downtown can be revived, the city will gain some population from the new workers interested in living in the city itself, and the suburbs (troy included) should all stand to gain in population and tax base (perhaps not commensurately, but each to some extent) as other workers spread out around the region.
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Detroitrise
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Post Number: 292
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Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 7:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Does anyone care where N'ville is? I don't know where it is. Somewhere on 275? Is it a problem that Detroiters don't go out to some far fetched suburb?"

Us Northeast Detroiters would tell you to take 8 Mile, 7 Mile or 6 Mile all the way to the end. I can give distinct directions there though (whether surface streets or expressway). I will admit though, I don't know where Macomb Township is at.
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Detroit_stylin
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Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It still looks like ass...
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Digitalvision
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Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The similarities to a gluteous maximus aside - you have me crackin' up, DS... I think someone needs to do a photoshop of that one... I think that there is a problem in this region of "I Hate (enter city here)."

I've heard it referred to Troy, Warren, Detroit, Grosse Pointe, Dearborn, everywhere.

It's silly - Troy is not going away. Nor is Detroit, for that matter. It's short sighted to just blanket something - for instance, I am not a fan of Troy, but it has Somerset and Hippos' Hot Dogs. I now have a wonderful memory of reuniting with an old friend there, and I'm not going to have it colored by the fact that turning left was a pain because there's a poorly designed intersection nearby.

These are things I like and are unique (I'd much rather have my Apple store be downtown, but, you do what you can, and I think Somerset is, as malls go, well done).

You can't move forward with hate or anger in the background of anything. If there are such strong emotions, there is very little chance of success. If you want mass transit, you're going to have to get over yourself. If you want anything regional, you should set the example of that cooperation - even if, inside, it's tough sometimes. I've read many books on the history of this region that have moved me with the stories of the injustice perpetrated. I have become more and more in-tune as I get older - one might say less naive - but I can't let that steal my happiness.

This is going to sound a little spiritual - but here goes. The universe gives you what you put out. If you go through life angry, all you will see is anger. If you go through hating, you'll create hate back by just that energy. If you think you will fail, you will fail, guaranteed. If you think everyone is out to get you, you'll find that person around every corner. If you truly believe all Detroiters are lazy, then that's all you will see. If you think your life sucks and it never can get better, it won't. I don't know if it's (Insert Your Diety of Choice) or some whacky alignment of protons (entirely possible), but my life experience is that it's very, very true.
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Kslice
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Post Number: 187
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Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What happened to the days when town squares were made by the people who already lived there? Why do developers have to come in and tell us this will be the center of town? Building houses and stores before any people live there seems dry.

I mean look at the plans for the place. You could put a mirror down the middle of it and it'd look the same. Whatever to originality or creativity? How could you stand to walk out of your house every day, look down the street, and see a row of houses that looked exactly like yours. It's like a place I'd expect aliens to live.
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Detroitrise
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Post Number: 297
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Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I mean look at the plans for the place. You could put a mirror down the middle of it and it'd look the same. Whatever to originality or creativity? How could you stand to walk out of your house every day, look down the street, and see a row of houses that looked exactly like yours. It's like a place I'd expect aliens to live."

Yeah, that must really irritate the people that live in Brooklyn, San Francisco, and even old inner city Detroit.
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Hybridy
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Post Number: 175
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Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

these projects aren't REAL
you can't create urbanism with fountains and plazas and some mixed-use midrise efis covered spec crap
suburban people will buy these-they rarely go outside-other than to let out the min pin to take a shit or to start the navigator on a chilly december morning
it won't be successful as urban infusion
no one will ever walk down big beaver for pleasure or take in the "view" of the retention pond in front of somerset
the contest will be who has the best vistas from their balcony of their "urban loft" to downtown
thats all
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Warrenite84
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Post Number: 152
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 2:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I prefer real architectural treatments over the plaster covered foamboard designs.

There is nothing wrong with Disneyland style urbanism as long as it is not over-the-top, is well thought out, durable, useful, and utilized.

I haven't heard much about the outdoor mall at University Dr. and Walton Blvd. in (Auburn Hills?). Have they maintained their foot traffic numbers?
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Detroit_stylin
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Post Number: 5223
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I say again....



It still looks like ass...
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Gsgeorge
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Post Number: 265
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 10:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and if anything this development will help make it look a bit better, so...

Still haven't heard a good reason why this shouldn't be built.
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Mackinaw
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Post Number: 3827
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm with Gsgeorge.

Let's please consider the location.

I say 90% of the landscape north of 8mile looks like ass, D_stylin, and with standards that low, this is a bit of an improvement.

Do you buy my logic that says that this will decrease the demand for really inefficient, even uglier housing to be built on the greenfield fringes of Oakland County? If this channels some of that type of demand, then this is actually a really good thing.

And if you still don't like how it looks...well at least you and I won't have to drive by it all the time.
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Jjw
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would much rather see this kind of development occurring in an area that is already built up versus an undeveloped area. For that reason, I feel fine with it. I think a lot of people interested in urban redevelopment wish that this kind of energy could be placed in an urban core area rather that an outlying suburb. I feel that way so even though I don't mind this project, it does not overwhelm me.
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Thejesus
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Post Number: 2477
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So, after all the pissing and moaning, can any one of you offer a valid reason as to why you think this project is a bad thing?

Or, is it that you just hate Troy and would prefer to see bad things happen to it?
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Patrick
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Post Number: 5071
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 12:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Haven't heard any pissing about Partridge Creek....yet
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Mackinaw
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Post Number: 3829
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

TJ, I think the consensus is it's bad only because it's not in Detroit, and that, while not being sprawl, is still adding housing units to a regional market that is not growing.

Some people don't like the design, but I can't agree with them because it is much higher density than the surrounding landscape, and being in Troy and not Detroit, I don't see why it should be any more urban than it is (or why we care if none of us go to Troy).

Some people commented on the fact that it will probably be low-quality, pre-fab construction. But we have our fair share of that, even with some prominent central Detroit redevelopments. This is a modern problem, not a problem particular to this development.

So there's your summary.

On the whole I think this is good, and while its not in Detroit, I haven't discovered any reasons why it would hurt Detroit.
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Thejesus
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Post Number: 2478
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Haven't heard any pissing about Partridge Creek....yet"

See thread below...these people are way too predictable

https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/91697/111947.html
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 473
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 12:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I say 90% of the landscape north of 8mile looks like ass, D_stylin, and with standards that low, this is a bit of an improvement"

So you prefer vacant lots, abandoned cars, burned out houses, and overgrow alleys?

If this project was south of 8 mile you all would love it.
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Thejesus
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Post Number: 2479
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mackinaw:

It was never an option to build this in Detroit. The plot of land that developers were bidding on is in Troy.

It was never an issue of, "where in Metro-Detroit should be build this mixed-use development". No, it was all about a plot of land that wasn't being used right across from the most luxurious mall in the region.

So it doesn't make sense for someone to say that they don't like this project because it's not in Detroit, as that implies that it being in Detroit was actually an option at some point...

And while the project adds housing to the market, it adds the type of housing we want, which is urban-esque units in a walkable community...

The opposition to this project is really just the manifestation of what is wrong with SE MI, which is the people of different cities all working against each other...you have people south of 8 Mile who would love nothing more than to see this project fail...they are hoping and praying for it.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 12:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"If this project was south of 8 mile you all would love it."

Exactly. They just hate the city and the people of Troy and don't want to ever see anything good happen to it.

I applaud whenever Detroit is able to put important projects together, but I never see the same thing coming in the opposite direction. All I ever see out of Detroiters is them hoping these kinds of projects in the suburbs fail.
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Mackinaw
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I said that 90% of the landscape north of 8mile is crap, that was independant of any judgment about south of 8-mile. Don't confuse my point, or twist it. Detroit has a lot of crap i.e. empty neighborhood, you don't have to inform me of that, but it also has more countable places that are truly great cityscapes, that are more suitable for human existence, than the monotonous landscape of single-use pods of suburbia. But whether Detroit is 2% crappy or 100% crappy doesn't change the fact that the suburbs are mostly crappy.

TJ, you're way too on edge here. I was just summarizing everyone's general point, not building a new argument. Where did you get that I didn't want it to succeed, especially considering that I said it was a good thing. I want greenfield exurban development to fail completely, unless this region is growing at some exponential rate that warrants it, but if Troy wants to build 20 more developments like this, then that's awesome!

Chill the fuck out and don't add elements to the argument with don't exist in the minds of the people making the argument.
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Iheartthed
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Post Number: 1936
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Honestly, I have apathetic feelings toward whether this project is successful or not. I think the contention with this project is the suggestion by the media that it will "save" metro Detroit. Or that it will have even the most minimal impact on how attractive metro Detroit is to outsiders, or locals for that matter.

Michigan has a very large, very historically significant, very high name recognition city and it doesn't know how to use that towards it's advantage. I think people see the heralding of this project as "the savior" as being just another example of that. As far reaching as Detroit's economic impact has been on a global scale, it's almost mind-boggling that it isn't an alpha or beta city right now... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G lobal_city

(Message edited by iheartthed on October 20, 2007)
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Detroit_stylin
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Racism in this region killed Detroit's World City status...
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Thejesus
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Post Number: 2481
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 1:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Racism in this region killed Detroit's World City status..."

Racism exists everywhere(and contrary to popular belief, it runs both ways)

It was the ability of the classes to separate themselves that killed Detroit chance to become a world-class city.

People always look at the prevalence of the automobile as having resulted in the lack of mass transit in Detroit...rarely do people realize that without the automobile, the region would not have been able to segregate itself the way that it did.
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Digitalvision
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed DS... it's a large portion of it - I think that that racism is indicative of how this region stayed the same while others moved forward.

We need to bridge this and figure it out - but that's another thread.

As to Iheartthed (which I find a more than appropriate handle now that I know where you're from)... it again is a case of our region staying the same while others innovate.

We do not have the same entrepreneurial spirit that other regions have. Innovation is a bad word in our culture. And key to this is that along with that spirit of entrepreneurship and innovation also tends to come a culture of tolerance and acceptance.

We do things backwards here - some of us are trying to do it the right way, but it gets harder and harder when you feel more and more alone.

That is the kind of azz-backward thinking that keeps us where we're at.
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 1:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

People always look at the prevalence of the automobile as having resulted in the lack of mass transit in Detroit...rarely do people realize that without the automobile, the region would not have been able to segregate itself the way that it did.

Also keep in mind that Detroit was not built around it's freeway system and personal car ownership. To me that the urban renewal projects and disinvestment in the public transportation system were the biggest factors in starting the flight. Those were the primary differences between Detroit and other cities of it's size and density that didn't experience as much of a population drop.
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

which I find a more than appropriate handle now that I know where you're from

Well, I'm from there but I live here. But yeah, you caught it. I think you're the first person to make the connection out loud.
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Number1
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Every development does not have to be within city limits for Detroit to become a world-class city. Developments both inside and outside the city can help the city and the metropolitan area. I can go back in history to prove this point. General Motors was founded outside of Detroit's city limits and Ford Motor company has been based in Dearborn for quite some time. However both of these companies had a tremendously positive impact on the city of Detroit during the 20th Century. GM eventually moved its headquarters inside city limits. Do people outside of Michigan think of Ford Motor company as a Dearborn company or a Detroit company? This a good example of how Michigan developments and businesses outside of Detroit city limits can positively impact Detroit.

Many of the cities on the global city list that was posted are also decentralized cities. Some examples are Atlanta and Los Angeles. Is Los Angeles only known for what it has within it's city limits or is it also known for its prosperous region?

I truly believe that any development in Michigan and specifically in Metro Detroit can help Detroit and the region as a whole. I also don't buy the argument that you "can't create urbanity in suburbia." Was the city of Detroit urban in 1700? No, urbanity had to be created here. More urban developments in Metro Detroit can only help the region.
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321brian
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 9:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"it also has more countable places that are truly great cityscapes"

Off the top of your head name a few for me.
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Detx
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^Well said Number1.
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Gistok
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Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mackinaw, I have to respectfully disagree with you... 90% of the landscape north of 8 Mile looks clean, relatively trash free and safe. Now can you compare that to 90% of the landscape south of 8 Mile??

Your use of 8 Mile as some magical point beyond which all is bland and ugly is rather mystifying... There's a lot of buildings north of that point (residential and commercial) that were built at the same time, and in an identical style, to that built in Detroit. And generally they're also better maintained.
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Mackinaw
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Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 12:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I dunno, 321Brian, but we'll limit it to just the city...how about beautiful neighborhoods which aren't duplicated north of 8-mile like Indian Village, West Village, East English Village, Palmer Woods, University District, Rosedale Park, Hubbard-Richard, Corktown, Mexicantown (W.Vernor + Bagley), Conant St. and Jos. Campau in Hamtramack/Poletown, Boston-Edison, Woodbridge, Brush Park, West Canfield Historic, East Ferry Historic, Gold Coast on E. Jefferson. Then there's midtown and downtown...

The commodities which you find here, even in the neighborhoods which are still rough (but have potential), are tough to track down in most suburbs.

Gistok, you know architecture and design, and you know somewhere around 8-mile, or perhaps closer to 7-mile in some cases (I wasn't saying it coincides with the city limit or anything), the landscape was created after that magic point in time when construction became schotty and traditional design went out the window. You can count the appealing, human scale neighborhoods and retail areas on one hand. You've got downtown Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, Mt. Clemens, and Pontiac. We'll call that my 10 percent.

"clean, relatively trash free, and safe" does not make unappealing and depressing okay. And to suggest that the suburbs have a monopoly on these perceived qualities, or that the entire city lacks in them, is not okay.

So where were we?...did I not call the Kmart parcel development a definite good thing which makes Troy substantially better off?

And why did I laud it to such an extent? Because it is a total break from what the rest of the landscape in Troy looks like. Do you understand my argument yet?
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Detroit_stylin
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Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 1:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ummmmm....did I mention that no matter the perspective, it looks like gluteouse to the maximus?
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321brian
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Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 11:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mackinaw,

Those are neighborhoods not cityscapes.

A cityscape is something more like what Campus Martius is trying to become.

It is a mix of residential and commercial. Like the downtowns of Birmingham, Royal Oak and what I think the Mexicantown area of Detroit is becoming. NOT neighborhoods.

I won't argue that Detroit does have some areas with great architecture.

So, please some examples off the top of your head.
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Jjw
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Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Hamtramck qualifies in certain areas as a true cityscape.
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Thejesus
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Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Ummmmm....did I mention that no matter the perspective, it looks like gluteouse to the maximus?"

The residents of Troy disagree...interesting too how many of them can afford to live anywhere in the state and yet they choose Troy
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Mackinaw
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Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whether or not your definition is a correct one, 321Brian, the fact is that I set the terms of the debate when I said that Detroit/inner ring has better cityscapes (or did I say landscapes), and I meant neighborhoods and all other cityscapes.

Neighborhoods define a place, and the fact is, the city and inner-ring have a monopoly on beautiful neighborhoods.

And in spite of 50 years of steady decimation, Detroit STILL has a few cohesive areas that are both neighborhood and cityscape in the sense you demanded. Much of the upper Cass Corridor and Mexicantown satisfy this characterization. I also think that Hamtramack/Poletown, the Kercheval-Jefferson portion of Indian/West Village, and of course, downtown as it becomes more residential satisfy your demands. In 5-10 years, so will the east riverfront. Jos. Campau south of Jefferson, as a mixed use streetscape, is the model for the rest of the neighborhood as it develops.

Basically, I get it, you think I'm being to generous in my assessment. All these spaces lack vitality, etc. etc....I will admit that, but if we are judging the landscape alone, and considering their potential as redevelopment continues, my assessment is not that out of whack.

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