  Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4272 Registered: 10-2004 |
Considering the low post count--I wonder whose alter ego this might be... Why not simply move to where jobs are because travel costs aren't high? The Salvation Army will help out. Single mother who got knocked up thrice? Hit the stud for child support. Or put up the kids in foster care. Notice what Gilda would say about flimsy excuses if she were still around, "There's always sumthin'." | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3632 Registered: 03-2006 |
LMAO - Thanks LY! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4274 Registered: 10-2004 |
That hypothetical case could be made even phonier: Let's take out one of her eyes and fit her with an eyepatch and glass eye. She's probably got an arm and leg too many, so we'll subtract one of each. Did I forget to include the litany of her diseases? Let's say if it's covered in exotic medical case books, she's probably had all them more than once. However, I'll give her credit--she rarely misses a day of work--blizzard-related, usually, if she's ever absent, although she practically lives on buses when her car's in the shop. But on the bright side, her beater gets 31 MPG... We won't even consider the costly day-care expenses for her three kids. But again, they're pretty much illusionary too, I bet. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on October 10, 2007) | ||
Sg9018 Member Username: Sg9018 Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2006 |
Will People do want transit in Metro Detroit is one example, A group of architects and city planners will have many meetings for transit-oriented design on Woodward Ave . A link at the bottom of todays Free Press, http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20071010/NEW S05/710100362 | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 6489 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Try getting there on a bus. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4275 Registered: 10-2004 |
Don't bother. Only dealers may buy them at Mannheim's. But you brought it up... A number of the local auctions are within Detroit or on SMART lines. Thanks, that needed mentioning. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 905 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Do you really believe that a $200 car will reliably get a person to work every day? I am willing to bet money that this is not only unrealistic, but nearly impossible. If you can buy a car for $200 and drive it to work every day for 6 months, without it breaking down or spending any money on repairs, I will reimburse you the full $200 purchase price of the car. quote: That sounds like a great idea, and there are plenty of people that would jump at this opportunity... Please tell us more about the wonderful opportunities for moving into these job centers. There are a number of entry-level jobs to be had in the office complexes in Troy, Auburn Hills, etc, but I am unaware of the low-income housing within walking distance of these job centers. There may be some reasonably-priced houses and apartments in those areas, but even that housing is not attainable for the vast majority of people coming from extreme poverty. Even if an impoverished person could somehow afford to rent a cheap apartment or pay the mortgage on a cheap house in Troy, they would still be denied the opportunity to move into these places. Outside of the hood, apartment landlords rarely rent to people without references, jobs, credit records, and/or cosigners. The same is true of mortgage companies. If you are unemployed, have no credit record, and you have no financially secure family to cosign, you can forget about moving to a place near most of the job centers. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2406 Registered: 07-2004 |
The problem that I see with mass transit in SE Michigan and Detroit goes beyond the automobile. Many whites are fearful that black Detroiters will take the subway and come into their neighborhoods, rob them, and wait on the next subway back to Detroit with their stolen items in tow. Yeah, right. Every time I envision this scenario I have to laugh. A thief from anywhere is most likely going to be driving a CAR (they call them get-a-way cars when they use them to escape from crimes) than taking a subway. This fear that uncontrollable crime will occur on subway trains is in my opinion the overriding reason why mass transit won't work in SE Michigan. For many people, the car is the safest mode of transportation, minus car accidents and carjackings. For mass transit to work in SE Michigan, there has to be a number of express lines that only travel from downtown Detroit to the suburbs and vice versa. If it picks up Detroiters, then the folks taking those subway trains are asking for trouble. Seriously, express lines would be the only reason suburbanites would use a subway system to and from their community and Detroit. If there are too many stops in Detroit, suburbanites won't use the system. Right now, improving the bus system appears to be the closest thing that we here in SE Michigan can get to that comes close to mass transit. Improving park and ride scenarios would be the second thing needed in improving public transportation here in SE Michigan. Also, if a subway system was ever built here in metro Detroit, then Telegraph might actually be the line to begin with more so than Woodward. The traffic on both sides of Telegraph during rush hour is incredible. Woodward's rush hour traffic is busy too, but it really isn't congested on both sides of the street until you get north of 9 Mile. Telegraph's traffic is pretty heavy from Pontiac to I-75 in Lincoln Park. Eventhough, I would like to see a subway or light rail in metro Detroit, the lack of a centrally located business district in Detroit, makes it difficult to justify the expense. Downtown Detroit's office workers' numbers pale in comparison to places like Chicago, DC, and NYC. You probably could get more Tigers' fans riding subway trains down to Comerica Park on the weekend than you could find office workers using the subway to get in and out of downtown Detroit in a week. Find a subway route with consistent ridership, and maybe a system can work here in SE Michigan. (Message edited by royce on October 11, 2007) | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 471 Registered: 10-2005 |
Royce, What you posted is a real issue in many places. When Baltimore extended it's light rail and subway lines out into the county, there were a lot of folks upset with that decision because they thought crime would increase at various malls where the lines ended up. It's been about 10 years now since the latest extension and it turned out that crime did not significantly increase at all. Also the folks out there now realize that the positives far outweigh the negatives. The lines brought in more shoppers and commuters in both directions who would make stops there for shopping. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 472 Registered: 10-2005 |
In fact, in one neighborhood close to downtown which I would describe as middle to lower income African-American, a whole bunch of new construction and rehab work is going up right next to the subway line (Target, Shoppers, two national chain restaurants, and a whole new rehabbed Mondawmin Mall with local business). That would never have happened without that subway line stopping there. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4281 Registered: 10-2004 |
Troy has its own ride system coordinated through SMART whereby they pick workers/shoppers up and drop them off at work/shopping sites and SMART bus stops during normal business hours. Livonia has something less ambitious. But, let's face it, the detractors to Troy, et al. or the Detroit potential "workers" who do not intend to get off their collective asses and seek work are numerous. After all, "It's too hard..." and there's still no end to Michigan's welfare system--and won't be as long as Granholm is hanging around and getting in the way. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 868 Registered: 12-2006 |
LY, The issue with the SMART connector-type service is it runs during normal office business hours, but if you have, say, a job at a mall - the kind of lower-pay job where you could really use a bus - the service doesn't extend to the hours you need it. Still, though, it's a help. The idea that crime increases near RT stops is as ludicrous, for the same reason, as the idea that crime increases near bike paths. I've heard both. Think it through: "Hey Dave, I want to go out to the suburbs and steal a TV set - let's take the light rail!" Kinda hard to imagine if you ask me. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4288 Registered: 10-2004 |
Metro Detroit has fast become a second-shift 8AM-5PM city (using the original numbering of shifts) now that the auto and Tier plants have lost their significance. It's not the burden of the taxpayers to fund the transit systems for a one-shift town on a 24/7 basis that a vibrant community could much easier support. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3670 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: You don't think places where people are stuck standing around offer easy targets to potential criminals? I don't have the stats but it sounds logical. If you do have some data on that I would like to see it. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4290 Registered: 10-2004 |
I don't have any stats, but there has been violent crimes reported recently occurring at bus stops in Detroit/HP. So, it does make sense that those locations could be more dangerous. NYC's subways had a bad rep for crime back a few decades ago. I guess it depends on whatever security/police/berets being present. Detroit had none previously and just a minimal amount of that today. Not enough to matter much, I reckon, but it's a start. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3673 Registered: 03-2006 |
I witnessed the subways firsthand myself in the 80's, the tunnels were a hellhole of crime and bums. I have read recent news reports of violent crime occurring ON the buses themselves in Detroit. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1850 Registered: 04-2006 |
I wasn't saying Detroit should not have mass transit, but where's our employment base and residential or visitor draw? The auto industry isn't enough, and as we know, impedes progress toward regional transit. Don't you think the lack of alternative transportation had at least a little to do with the mass disinvestment downtown? There was no efficient way into the city that didn't involve being susceptible to traffic jams. Even during mega events such as parades or fireworks, the traffic downtown is a nightmare. What if there was that type of density down there on a daily basis? For reference, midtown Manhattan on a normal weekday looks about what downtown Detroit does on the evening of the fireworks. Let's face it, in talking about "saving" Detroit, we're also talking about re-densifying Detroit. It isn't really that "un"-dense now. How do we expect to move people around a dense core, or even spark interest in recreating a dense core without a mass transit system? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3675 Registered: 03-2006 |
How do we expect to move people around a dense core, or even spark interest in recreating a dense core without | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1851 Registered: 04-2006 |
BTW, on my commute to work this morning (on a packed subway in Manhattan) someone made the comment "this is what makes this city work". New York figured it out. That's why they care so much about that subway. (Message edited by iheartthed on October 11, 2007) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1852 Registered: 04-2006 |
How do we expect to move people around a dense core, or even spark interest in recreating a dense core without a mass transit system reducing crime? Well, when the topic is crime we'll speak about that there. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3676 Registered: 03-2006 |
Iheartthed - NYC was tanking pre-Giuliani. They had the trains but people were afraid to ride them. Business was moving OUT of the city. You can't just add trains and think your problems are over. I bring in the crime issue because you are ignoring it, claiming that mass transit is "the answer" for our economic woes. It may be part of the answer but there are many other issues. I will stop harping on it now. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1853 Registered: 04-2006 |
I never claimed that crime in Detroit was not an issue. Do I think it is the primary issue? No, I don't. I do think it is a major issue, yes. Please stop assuming you know my position without asking me to clarify it first. Furthermore, NYC was never nearly as abandoned as Detroit. Broadway never left, the stock exchanges never left, and people still rode the subways. They may not have rode them uptown, or too far into Brooklyn, or after 8pm, but they rode them to get to work. They had to. Quiet as it's kept, I'd bet 9/11 probably pushed out more businesses than urban crime. Many financial services firms set up shop across the river in Jersey City after that, which is why a lot of the buildings in lower Manhattan/Financial district are being converted to condos... | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2407 Registered: 07-2004 |
Perfectgentleman, it sounds like conditions on NYC subways have improved. Why do you still want to harp on what happened in the 1980s? Crime exists in urban areas because there are more people, period. Why don't you admit, Perfectgentleman, that city living freaks you out? That's OK. You don't have to try and scare the rest of us because of your fears. We're big boys and girls and we can handle ourselves. I have been fortunate that situations in my life have made it possible for me to live in Detroit, relatively unaffected by crime first hand, knock on wood. I regret PG that you had such a bad experience living in Detroit. Property crimes: break-ins of homes and cars and thefts of cars are major problems in Detroit. Assaults and murders are rarely random. Don't sell drugs, don't walk alone at night, and try not to piss people off (road rage and squabbles with the neighbors) and you will rarely be physically attacked in Detroit. Nothing and nowhere's perfect, Perfectgentleman. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3753 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: Conditions did improve thanks to Giuliani. I was making the point that without public safety the best mass transit system in the world will not save a city. You want to underplay the crime issue, go ahead but nobody is buying what your selling. I am not trying to scare anyone, I am merely stating facts. BTW, I know plenty of people that have been assaulted and robbed in Detroit. Where I live, I can walk at night, I don't have to worry about pissing people off and drugs are not an issue. There hasn't been a murder in years. Many people leave their doors unlocked when they leave the house. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 171 Registered: 07-2007 |
"NYC was tanking pre-Giuliani. They had the trains but people were afraid to ride them. Business was moving OUT of the city. You can't just add trains and think your problems are over." That's not what the stats say. Crime rates were actually falling before Guiliani took office. He likes to take credit for making that happen but it's been well-documented that most the NYC crime trends had nothing to do with anything Guiliani put into place. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2408 Registered: 07-2004 |
Well, Perfectgentleman, if you are so happy where you live, which is obviously not Detroit, why do you bother to comment on this forum? Most of your comments are bitter and negative. Like someone once said, "This is Detroit Yes, not Detroit NO". I'm not trying to down play the crime in Detroit, but explain to me why I have never been assaulted or robbed in Detroit? I walk often in places like: my neighborhood, downtown, and on the riverwalk and have never had a problem. Is it only luck or is the level of crime in Detroit blown out of proportion by someone who had bad experiences while living here? You claim to know plenty of people that have been assaulted and robbed in Detroit. I claim to know very few people that have been assaulted or robbed in Detroit. Whose account is factual, mine, or yours? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2694 Registered: 07-2004 |
Both are factual Royce. However you stated yourself that you were not downplaying crime_ so even you agree it is a problem. The cities population continues to shrink. Why? People are tired of the bullshit. It is now black people leaving.They don't like the bullshit either. Many people on this forum have posted their experiences........chub for example. Crime is a huge if not the biggest obstacle Detroit faces. Novine, I am not a republican. However I am willing to give credit where due.Others have tried pasing that crap around here about Guiliani not having much if anything to do with how much crime reduced in nyc, Honest people know it is just sour grapes from the left.The reduction of crime was too significant under his watch; you have zero credibility on that. | ||
Kid_dynamite Member Username: Kid_dynamite Post Number: 313 Registered: 06-2007 |
"Well, Perfectgentleman, if you are so happy where you live, which is obviously not Detroit, why do you bother to comment on this forum?" Royce, you've been on this forum for a long time, you should know by now that DYes is for Detroit and the surrounding communities. By the way, I live in Detroit, and I see the fucked up crime and chaos quite frequently. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 241 Registered: 09-2007 |
Citylover, I actually believe it's more than Crime. I believe it's mostly the lack of civic utilities and taxes than anything. You get better response time and service outside the city of Detroit than anything. Not to mention that I'm sure people here are tired of the urban blight around Detroit. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 908 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: The SMART-shuttle system in Troy is a joke. I worked for an insurance company at Big Beaver and Crooks, and some of my coworkers used this system to get to work. One co-worker of mine was stuck with this pathetic system after her transmission went out on her car. It took her over 2 hours EACH way to get from New Center to Troy. As if the excessive travel time wasn't bad enough, the unreliability of this system makes it impossible to get to work on time every single day. Due to the dual bus systems, most Detroit residents commuting to Troy must take one or two DDOT busses to get to a SMART transfer stop, and then transfer from the SMART bus to the Troy shuttle. If you have ever used DDOT, you would know that the system is very unreliable, with frequently delayed and/or no-show busses. During my time in Troy, we hired a number of young Detroit residents for entry-level jobs, and many of them were not kept past the first 90 days, for the sole reason of tardiness due to the bus system. On more than one occasion, my boss expressed her dismay over firing a very good employee because they had been tardy 4 or 5 times in their first 90 days, simply due to poor bus service. quote: Your hypocritical statements on this issue are truly astounding. You want unemployed Detroiters to "get off their collective asses and seek work", but you refuse to support a reliable transportation system that would allow these people access to said work. You then attempt to justify your lack of support for a reliable transit system by claiming that Detroiters wouldn't take advantage of new opportunities because they are simply unwilling to work. For the grand finale, you complain that "there's still no end to Michigan's welfare system--and won't be as long as Granholm is hanging around and getting in the way." For the record, I am no fan of Granholm, but she isn't the the one responsible for the cycle of welfare and poverty in Michigan. In fact, it is people like yourself who help keep the cycle of poverty and welfare going strong, by fighting against improved access to job opportunities, and writing off a large percentage of our citizens as hopeless and lazy. --------- |
