  Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 419 Registered: 11-2003 |
Density is not part of our local culture, at all - and never, ever has been. Take a look at Detroit history, and it's a history of apartment buildings and dense development that was discouraged or outright banned in the '30s, '40s, and '50s by the Detroit city government as they'd be more likely to house black people and other minorities (also creating a severe housing shortage because of inefficient use of land, and neighborhoods built in areas where in other cities they'd never be built, a flashpoint of 1967). Detroit was out of land for years, and because few of the time wanted to live near blacks, even before the freeways, people were sprawling out in the City and out of it as soon as they could. That start created a sociological culture to keep moving out - at dinner parties, events, and things, it's STILL the goal. I've heard many people talk about how Troys' "passe" or "too close" and they want to move to Rochester, Auburn Hills, or heck, Genessee county. I don't think that necessarily those people realize where their habits came from and what they're rooted in, but it's the way things are now. Save in a few areas, between Urban Renewal (commonly called Negro Removal) and other projects, there was very little of the density (or people) left in the city centre except for the poor - and only now is the city starting to build that density back up. Why do I say this? Because it's part of the anger I see in some posts here - it's deeper than hating the suburbs for being suburbs. There's history here - that the suburbs were created by racism - and it flames a lot of anger to this day on both sides. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3801 Registered: 02-2005 |
Agreed, Umcs. Detroit should be at an advantage because all those neighborhoods have more character and history than the suburbs, and there is a wider array of options, yet it is at a disadvantage. I would attribute it to stigmas and the fact that downtown Detroit is not the one and only major jobs center for this region, in addition to poor services and administration as you point out. Shiva, I'd also gladly see that development in Detroit. The planned development at 8/Woodward doesn't feature housing, and if it does it is very little. I would love to see this development there. If any of you have seen me reach Detroityes pariah status over on the "obervations/questions" thread with regards to the lower east side, you could guess that I'd love to have this sort of development in the place of the housing tracts of Lafayette Park and vicinity. | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 177 Registered: 06-2007 |
Digitalvision, I've posted this in the non-Detroit section but you should read "White Flight: Atlanta and the Making of Modern Conservatism" by Kevin M. Kruse. It's an interesting take on the relationship between white flight and politics. I think the politics of Oakland and Macomb Counties bear out Mr. Kruse's theories. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1889 Registered: 04-2006 |
>Density is not part of our local culture, at all - and never, ever has been. Detroit's peak census population was what 1.8 million people? It was believed to have peaked between census counts somewhere at or above 2 million. Detroit has a land area of 138.8 sq miles... 1,800,000 / 138.8 = 12968.3 people/ square mile ETA: Chicago's current density is 12,470/sq mi (Message edited by iheartthed on October 16, 2007) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3803 Registered: 02-2005 |
Parts of the Woodward corridor south of Boston-Edison reached 60,000/sq. mile according to census density maps. What is now midtown was replete with mid-rise apartment houses. The point is well-made, though, that most non-central neighborhoods were comprised of single-family homes. Density was really revived for awhile, too, around Palmer Park i.e. Whitmore St. and Merril Plaisance north of McNichols near Woodward. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 420 Registered: 11-2003 |
Possibly "Density" was the wrong term as it is a technical term; I'm not talking about the number, but the type of housing. Detroit is/was single family homes - other cores of cities, like New York or San Francisco, are apartments, condos, and multi-story units. Although on small lots, single family homes take up a lot more space per person than multi-story condos or apartment blocks. | ||
Wpitonya Member Username: Wpitonya Post Number: 46 Registered: 08-2005 |
Iheartthed, where in NYC do you live? I live at 22nd and 9th! I have come to realize that a real urban area is not for everyone, so if these shallow suburbanites want this type of development, well then that's better than having a subdivision with 1/2 acre lots for everyone. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 475 Registered: 10-2005 |
I am still laughing about the reference to Faneuil Hall in the story. Amazing. I can't think of two more different urban settings. hmmm. Big Beaver Road and Faneuil Hall. That will draw them in. | ||
Greatlakes Member Username: Greatlakes Post Number: 32 Registered: 07-2007 |
quote: Ah, who cares about them anyway? It sounds like they'd never consider Detroit, so we needn't bother trying to win them over. Let them isolate themselves. The city's salvation rests with the people who stayed and those outsiders willing to take a chance and start something new. | ||
Clark1mt Member Username: Clark1mt Post Number: 99 Registered: 06-2005 |
"I've heard many people talk about how Troys' "passe" or "too close" and they want to move to Rochester, Auburn Hills, or heck, Genessee county" I find it amusing that people apparently think there's a significant difference between Auburn Hills and Troy, lifestyle-wise. They're pretty much adjacent to each other, and it's not like it's that difficult to get from one to the other. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3807 Registered: 02-2005 |
Digitalvision, you're absolutely right. Jjw, wasn't that comparison just egregious? | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 421 Registered: 11-2003 |
It is amusing - but it's perception, that's all - not lifestyle. One is perceived as hot, the other not as much. It's 20% product, and 80% marketing... same thing with the CBD in Detroit or Midtown. Remember, surveys shows that emotions trump facts 2 to 1 in buying and purchase decisions for the vast majority of people. When you realize that, that is when you'll start selling like gangbusters. This observation I am about to make is purely anecdotal, and I understand the faults in that, but I do get around to a lot of events and meetings with decision makers and business folks - and outside of Detroit, MANY MANY more people talk about Midtown as the hot spot instead of downtown, because of the strength of WSU brand and there are many folks who have good experiences with Wayne State - in fact, it's perceived as almost "safe ground" to travel in - as opposed to others, including the CBD - which are definitely not. For instance, Techtown is very well spoken of as "the hot place to be" in suburban circles - and much praise for the new development going up on the same block as the dorms/WDET. I surmise it's because they know people or have themselves a connection with the area. As to things like the possibility of Quicken, the coming of Compuware, or the new Ernst & Young building, the Book-Cadillac - I hate to say this, but no one cares. Mention Starbucks at Woodward and Mack, people may follow - and I can't tell you how many (at least 20 people) who didn't know that there was a Starbucks downtown, yet alone three (or two Jimmy Johns, or Au Bon Pain). Usually made with some comment about the city burning. I've commonly heard "it's not like the rest" when, as a former resident of a couple Detroit neighborhoods, I can tell you that in fact, it is like other neighborhoods, and in a good way. There are many city neighborhoods that are beautiful, as you (preaching to the choir) all know. I know more east side ones than west side, I'll leave that half of the city to Jjaba. I actually agree with you, Greatlakes, on some levels - unfortunately, we have to cooperate as a region for us all to move forward, and here is where the problem lies in that approach. Oh, thanks for the recommendation UMCS. I'll check it out. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1890 Registered: 04-2006 |
>Iheartthed, where in NYC do you live? I live at 22nd and 9th! I'm on the UWS. | ||
Shiva Member Username: Shiva Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2007 |
Detroit_stylin: quote: Patrick: quote: Detroit_stylin: quote: Is it just me, or does that response seem a little out of line? I had no idea this issue would cause so much discussion. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2425 Registered: 06-2006 |
The news report said the project will be "along the lines of Boston's Thaniel Hall and Reston Town Center in Viginia" I couldn't find any good photos of the one in Boston, but here's a few of the Reston Town Center http://www.flickr.com/photos/a degen/414296537/ http://flickr.com/photos/adege n/414296547/ http://flickr.com/photos/grego ryhughdavidson/819514998/ http://flickr.com/photos/ac4lt /13278152/ | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 2946 Registered: 02-2007 |
"I'm on the UWS." is josie's (i think that is it) still around? their portabella fajitas were soooooooooooooo good | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1891 Registered: 04-2006 |
I've never eaten there but here's their website: www.josiesnyc.com | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1894 Registered: 04-2006 |
>I couldn't find any good photos of the one in Boston, but here's a few of the Reston Town Center http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F aneuil_Hall | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 406 Registered: 10-2006 |
quote: Try searching for Faneuil Hall instead, and you might get a few more results. (Message edited by dds on October 17, 2007) | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2430 Registered: 06-2006 |
^ah yes..my mistake...funny thing is, "thaniel hall" was listed on yahoo auto complete as a common search term and I also found indoor photos of the complex under that name | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2451 Registered: 06-2006 |
So in sum, no one here has raised any valid objection to this project other than they just hate Troy... This is especially humorous coming from the, "We need regionalism and need to work together" crowd...your idea of "working together" is simply using everyone else's money to benefit you | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10533 Registered: 10-2003 |
With the way the region is growing I see anything that is 16 mile or south of 16 mile as a much, much better option than something on 30 mile. The people of the inner rings or next to them are probably much more prone to support business/activity in the city than those that move further and further out. I do however hate Troy | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2456 Registered: 06-2006 |
"I do however hate Troy" And yet you preach "regionalism" and say that you want to see cities working together... Ever stop to think that maybe your attitude is part of the problem with SE MI? Nevermind. Silly question. Of course not. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1916 Registered: 04-2006 |
With the way the region is growing I see anything that is 16 mile or south of 16 mile as a much, much better option than something on 30 mile. That region is not growing, it's expanding. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10534 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I am a person, not a city. I fully advoacte the city of Detroit working with Troy, the county of Wayne working with Troy, etc. I would even be fine with regional tax dollars going to improve Troy if it helped the sustainability of SE Michigan. My opinion on Troy as a city has nothing to do with regionalism. I love the silly "your attitude is why there is no regionalism" argument. That one is right there with "you were mean to me on a forum and that is why I won't visit Detroit" Are you on any forums preaching to the 'Detroit is a shithole" crowd. There are more of them than of us and I am sure that the typical Detroiter on this forum would support regionalism much more than the typical person in this region. My message about a city does not, nor will it ever affect regionalism. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10535 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I guess the region is much like me. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2458 Registered: 06-2006 |
"That one is right there with "you were mean to me on a forum and that is why I won't visit Detroit" " The difference is that I do not hate Detroit...I rather like it...I simply choose not to live among people with so much hate towards the place I grew up... it has nothing to do with someone being mean on a forum, Jt1...believe it or not, life does exist outside this board...it has to do with the general attitude of Detroit's residents that everyone from the suburbs is evil.. And the thing you fail to realize is that most of the hate aimed at Detroit results from people who would like to see Detroit to well, but are furious at what its citizens have done to it... By contrast, your hatred towards places like Troy stems from the fact that they even exist in the first place.. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1919 Registered: 04-2006 |
I guess the region is much like me. Don't worry, you aren't the only Michigander afflicted in that respect. http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/20 06/fit.nation/obesity.map/ | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10536 Registered: 10-2003 |
Complete load of bs. quote: Quite a generalization. How many people do you know that live in the city? quote: Wow, just wow. I am really curious to know how many residents outside of downtown/midtown you actually know. Seems to me your information comes from sound blurbs on the news. quote: I disagree. quote: Wrong, my hatred towards Troy stems form the attitude of the people that I know/have known from Troy. Troy breeds a special type of arogance. I love our post - those that don't like Detroit or have issues with it are noble and thinking while anyone that dislikes a suburb is just full of ignorant hatred. That post speaks volumes to how you view Detroiters (hateful, illogical people) and their suburban(thoughtful and rationale) counterparts | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1920 Registered: 04-2006 |
^Funniest part is that most Detroiters probably couldn't even give you directions to Northville if they wanted, lol... |
