  Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 4156 Registered: 03-2006 |
Danindc - I don't care about your article, it is another libs opinion. He doesn't like sprawl, fine. You want development in Detroit instead? Go out and do it. Put together a business plan and present it to potential investors and see what they tell you. | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 262 Registered: 06-2007 |
Shopping malls are very strange animals when it comes to development and operation. Without delving into the nuances, the original construction is not always made with the idea of necessarily generating an operational profit over their life span. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1949 Registered: 04-2006 |
I don't care about your article, it is another libs opinion. So in other words, you don't have a constructive rebuttal? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3500 Registered: 10-2003 |
Michigan's annual $10 billion expenditures to support sprawl is hardly the stuff of opinion. I would think an anti-tax zealot such as yourself, PG, would be screaming for fiscal responsibility in such matters. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 4157 Registered: 03-2006 |
The rebuttal is that not everyone loves Detroit or big cities in general. They don't want to live, work, or shop there. Get over it. They will invest their money and live where they see fit. If it doesn't pan out, that is matter for them. If the people in the city would focus on improving it, they would attract investment dollars too. There is not "entitlement" for Detroit to be given preference over any other area. It needs to compete for investment dollars like anywhere else. Why are you people obsessed with telling people where they should live and where their money should go? (Message edited by perfectgentleman on October 22, 2007) | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 263 Registered: 06-2007 |
Dan, I read the article but I do have a few critiques about it since it appears more of an op-ed piece. First, how are they measuring sprawl? I recall that when I traveled regularly by train from Detroit to Milwaukee (it was cheaper than flying back then), that a large number of bedroom communities existed outside of Chicago. Likewise, in DC, the metropolitan area has huge sprawl that I find worse than Detroit by far. Tyson's Corner is particularly bad. Basically, it just seems as though the author is stating sprawl is bad because it costs more. Well, duh. We all know that. However, what I don't get is any proposed solution other than mandating by fiat where people can and cannot live. Additionally, the $10 billion figure is on economic development which is not 100% correlative with infrastructure development. As for being 17% of the budget, that's nonsense. Only about 1/4 of the budget is discretionary in nature. the $10 billion figure would easily eat up more than the discretionary portion of the overall state budget so this figure is flatly false. That's like saying the state can just cut 5% out of all budgets and balance the budget. Simplistic thinking isn't true. Don't play that game. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3501 Registered: 10-2003 |
UMCS--you need to read the article (and my posts) a bit more carefully before you comment. I'll reiterate this for anyone who still thinks this mall is a good thing: quote: Let that sink in. PG says this: quote: Perhaps he can readily address this statement, then: quote: http://mlui.org/growthmanageme nt/fullarticle.asp?fileid=1678 6 If you argue that private investment doesn't necessarily follow public investment in infrastructure, then you are a moron. Choice, my ass. | ||
6nois Member Username: 6nois Post Number: 544 Registered: 11-2006 |
Government tax money for infrastructure improvements should go back into already developed areas. The state is not in good shape and by spending on new development, roads, water, sewer, it just adds to the maintenance load that must in turn be paid for by tax dollar. Sprawl makes no sense for our cash strapped state. I would also venture to say there are alot of people in the city who are very interested in improving the city and they work toward that goal, but they are working against very large odds. Its not something that you can just stand up and do it takes time. Things get worse alot faster than they get better, healing takes time its a fact of nature. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1950 Registered: 04-2006 |
Why are you people obsessed with telling people where they should live and where their money should go? Interesting. This is exactly how I feel when the topic of whether or not I should be driving an American car arises (I have never owned a non-American car, btw). On the other hand, metro Detroit's housing market is deeper in the shitter than any other metro of it's size, or larger, in the country. I have to believe that the sprawl happy policies are contributing to it. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 4158 Registered: 03-2006 |
Did you every think that Auburn Hills was the winner because it had the best chance of paying off on the investment? This is the old refrain about "Detroit subsidizing the suburbs" again eh? There have been billions of tax dollars poured into Detroit for decades, what is the payoff? Not much. Once again you are implying that Detroit should be given preferential treatment yet they have not proven they can manage the assets they have. Government tax money for infrastructure improvements should go (Message edited by perfectgentleman on October 22, 2007) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3502 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: How do you propose we measure success? And are we to believe it's acceptable to simply abandon a city of over 800,000 people because self-righteous pricks don't believe that Detroit matters? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4429 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Translation: What bridge that DDC is trying to sell us is that the private sector will gain if the public sector What DDC conveniently fails to state is that the public and private sectors in DC gain because the federal government utilizes the private sector there in its spending and distribution of funds. Obviously, in a zero-sum game, there are winners and there will be losers. Detroit will never win, considering all the insurmountable negatives the area has stacked against it. Increased public-sector spending in Michigan simply means that the private sector there will necessarily be worse off. Period. | ||
Skamour14 Member Username: Skamour14 Post Number: 105 Registered: 03-2005 |
all malls, get in class rooms halls.. feel on donkey walls.. and play with kick balls...... basically they suck. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3503 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: What does DC have to do with this??? Maybe you can explain why Detroit peforms so piss poorly compared to EVERY other region in the U.S., save for New Orleans. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 4159 Registered: 03-2006 |
The folks that are abandoning the city are doing so for many reasons, talk to them. Are the thousands of blacks who left a bunch of self-righteous pricks? No, they got tired of the bullshit. Even if you could force people to invest in the city it wouldn't matter. You could build a mall in Detroit and it would fail. The people with the dollars to spend wouldn't go there in sufficient numbers. There used to be lots of retail in Detroit, in fact it was the best place to shop. It's all gone and it is not because of a lack of government spending. Other cities have done just fine with large suburban ares around them and other challenged cities have turned around. When the people who run the city manage to do that, they will attract dollars from government and the private sector, until then, life goes on. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3504 Registered: 10-2003 |
^^^In the meantime, it's acceptable to funnel ever-more money into physical expansion for a region that hasn't grown in population for over forty years? quote: | ||
Civilprotectionunit4346 Member Username: Civilprotectionunit4346 Post Number: 563 Registered: 06-2007 |
It's like god took a crap off of M-59/Hall Road... Just what we needed in Macomb County another trendy/hip/upscale spread my logo feces mall with overpriced goods that most people can't really afford. Unless they are these arrogant self-centered yuppies from suburbia driving in there hip/cool suv's to the mall to buy a $500 pocket book & charging it on there husbands credit card driving him closer to insanity when he see's the credit card bill...Gotta love all this packaged, processed & pasterized goodness society serves us at this logo feces filled mall(Yes I am going on one of my rants & my feelings about this place). I live in suburbia, but I keep myself on a budget & try not to buy what I don't need & that mall doesn't offer me other then some good laugh's when I go there to check out all the corporate logo feces smeared all over the place as I watch Todd & Buffy go shop at one of these overpriced stores. Isn't this great how american society has turned out now, no where else in the world can you probably buy processed cheese in can, eat packaged deli meats & drink sugary soft drinks that aren't good for you....I can now see how long we've come along on the evolutionary ladder. | ||
Chefdave Member Username: Chefdave Post Number: 95 Registered: 04-2004 |
Is this new mall close to lakeside mall on hall road? It seems weird to build a new mall if lakeside mall is so close. | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 265 Registered: 06-2007 |
Oi, Dan, I'm not disagreeing with the concept that sprawl is bad. Easy on the Starbucks. I'm disagreeing with the Op-Ed piece and its use as an evidentiary tool. "If the source of enduring prosperity was more cars, more highways, more parking lots, and more suburban sprawl, then Detroit and its suburbs should be like Paris." This is an ad hominem argument. Prosperity and sprawl do not equal a one-for-one correlation. Additionally, we shouldn't even digress into the housing and land-use practices of Continental Europe. They used entirely different models post-WWII. It has sunk in and your argument doesn't hold weight based on that statement alone. As for this second article, it does not match with the purported figures in the first article. The original article states: "Michigan spends $10 billion a year on economic development, much of it directed to lure people and jobs out of cities and older suburbs to the exurbs." The source states: "In 2001, the latest year for complete figures, state and local governments invested $10.1 billion for roads, buildings, schools, water, sewer, public safety, and other infrastructure and services without which sprawl cannot proceed." The figure he cited is incorrect as stated in his first article. He is broadening the definition of economic development to include all public services provided at a state and local level. His original statement is flat out wrong and there is no supporting it without significant contortionism on the part of the advocate. He should have used the original phraseology in his second article. Additionally, based solely on the information provided regarding Auburn Hills, do you find it coincidental with respect to the years in question and a certain automaker? With respect to roads, how is this allocation of non-"core cities" spread between suburbs of Detroit and say for instance, development of rural areas? Was it for paving projects of dirt roads? His explanation is simply insufficient to justify his statements and conclusions without additional review. He attempts to rationalize a position without providing the specific evidence necessary to back up his claims. Repeating it as authoritative research adds to the misinformation regarding the subject matter. Additionally, no, I don't believe public investment in infrastructure necessarily will result in private investment. Private investment varies considerably depending on economic circumstances. Public investment certainly does assist in that however. Feel free to call me a moron if you like but I think citing this article in response to PG's opinion does nothing to further the discussion other than providing additional positional statements passed off as unassailable fact. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 1235 Registered: 11-2003 |
Civilprotectionunit4346 I take it you down own anything namebrand and all your food is homegrown? | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1589 Registered: 11-2003 |
The new mall is a couple miles down M-59 from Lakeside (which ironically Taubman built and owned until the early part of this decade). The idea is that these two malls will co-exist like Oakland Mall and Somerset Collection do in Troy. Time will tell. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4430 Registered: 10-2004 |
DDC must be clueless if he cannot make a mental connection with Detroit's lack of prospects for a better future with the fact that two-thirds of its adult population is illiterate and possess lousy collective work skills and ethics. Some three-fourths of its school kids drop out... Some rechargeable batteries are beyond recharging, Dan. The best and most expensive charger wouldn't help. | ||
Fareastsider Member Username: Fareastsider Post Number: 650 Registered: 08-2006 |
about two miles. I dont know though with the amount of Retail on the Hall road Corridor that is yet to fail I would not be surprised if both malls do well. The papers have covered some of the issue.http://macombdaily.com/stories /101507/loc_lakeside001.shtml Every year more and more retail goes in and stays open. I suppose it will do good until the county gets their way with 26 Mile Rd. Which can be viewed here and then clicking on "Publications" It is the one on the bottom. http://www.rcmcweb.org/ Oh yea Walmart is ready to build next to the new mall as well. I cant wait for the snooty people to be upset by a WalMart attracting the Riff Raft! http://www.macombdaily.com/sto ries/102207/loc_walmart001.sht ml | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3505 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Well, the laws of economics don't recognize the limitations of Eight Mile Road. There's a reason that all of Southeast Michigan--and the State, for that matter--are in the shitter. | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 1661 Registered: 03-2006 |
i grew up at hall and romeo plank, that area did not need a new mall. the traffic congestion was bad enough 10 years ago, now i can only imagine. | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 266 Registered: 06-2007 |
LY, That last post is so wrong in so many different ways. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 1237 Registered: 11-2003 |
"Detroit's lack of prospects for a better future with the fact that two-thirds of its adult population is illiterate and possess lousy collective work skills and ethics. Some three-fourths of its school kids drop out..." I always wondered what study concluded that the majority of Detroit is illiterate? Can anyone provide some proof or link to the survey/study? 3/4 of students drop out? Come on now... I need some kind proof on that as well. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 3577 Registered: 12-2005 |
How did they justify locating this new Partridge Creek mall only one (or two?) miles east of Lakeside mall? I assume there's a good reason but I can't imagine what it is. Am I confused about its location? | ||
Civilprotectionunit4346 Member Username: Civilprotectionunit4346 Post Number: 567 Registered: 06-2007 |
I have clothes....just that I don't go out & buy over priced crap like they sell at that place....the thing about food is that I cook all my own dinners...don't have anything home grown. I eat healthy. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 5074 Registered: 10-2003 |
I tried getting into Partridge Creek off of Garfield this weekend(shhhh, nobody knows about that entrance). Cops had it all blocked and there was a line about a mile long…maybe longer. So I ended up driving through Ravioli Estates trying to get to Partridge Creek (the road). I ended up driving right through where the first tee off for the north nine used to be. I played that course for years in HS. I think Lakeside is going to need a flashy makeover soon or it will start to lose more shoppers to this new Mall. |
