 
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 289
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 10:02 pm: |    |
Mike,
I have to agree with PG on this one as much as it pains me. Macomb County is not Oakland County as of course, neither of those is Detroit. Each mall caters to a different demographic. The loser with this new mall is perhaps Lakeside, but again, Lakeside can probably co-exist with Partridge as long as they keep differing major retailers. The Village of Rochester Hills didn't kill Great Lakes just like Great Lakes didn't kill Oakland. It did kill summit place because they carried the same demographic of retailers. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 691
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 10:06 pm: | |
You can bet it will have an effect. Sommerset is the "downtown" of Metro Detroit. That mall attracts people from all around. And you can bet they will feel some business go down from this new mall opening when many of the stores that one only found at Sommerset.
No matter what, the pop is not growing, and the retail dollars are going to shift from one area to another. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4237
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 10:13 pm: | |
Miketoronto -
It is not for people outside of the community in question to decide who needs a mall or not. The land owners and the community where the mall is located can choose to develop the land as they see fit. That is how the country works.
Are you saying that existing developments should be given some sort of protection from government, preventing others from opening? Not only is this basically impossible but it is ill-advised. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3528
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 10:37 pm: | |
I think what people like Miketoronto and I are saying is that fiscal resources are already spread thinly over a large geographical area in Southeast Michigan. The population is stagnant, and has been for forty years. All this new mall does is dilute spending power even further. The continued sprawling maintains the status quo of spending ever-more money on things that, frankly, aren't necessary. It hurts the economic competitiveness of the entire region.
But keep on keepin on, if you will. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 693
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 10:37 pm: | |
It is not ill-advised. Why build another mall just to empty out another one or put another one in decline? If there is no need for a new mall why build?
Many metro regions regulate excessive development.
There was no need for that mall plain and simple.
That is why Metro Detroit has a downtown Detroit with no retail, and malls that are in decline and some that are already empty and knocked down.
Each development is just eating away at another one. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 520
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 10:40 pm: | |
I believe we are getting the momentum going on mass transit in this region. As small in scale as it is, the Rosa Parks Transit Center is a big step in the right direction.
A. It clears Capital Park for future (acually probably an immediate makeover to the last neglected area of downtown.
B. People avoid the possability of catching a quick bus from downtown to Royal Oak, Wayne State, Midtown, Northland, Eastland, Fairlane, Oakland mall because there is not a "destination point" that will start and end your trip.
A safe, well lite, well designed bus station with a coffee shop, poice mini station and welcome center, RPTC will spark peoples interest in transit.
Plus it sooo close to the new MGM and Campus M. The people mover headquater station is just across the street, furthur connecting the dots.
C. The new center-Ann Arbor line. Havent heard much about it lately, but heard they are working hard to get it on an rolling by spring. Connection the 2 college is a no brainer.
D. sucess in above items will finally get The WOODWARD LINE up and running. Probably just a rapid bus system, much like the one in L.A. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 694
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 10:42 pm: | |
It is not ill-advised. Why build another mall just to empty out another one or put another one in decline? If there is no need for a new mall why build?
Many metro regions regulate excessive development.
There was no need for that mall plain and simple.
That is why Metro Detroit has a downtown Detroit with no retail, and malls that are in decline and some that are already empty and knocked down.
Each development is just eating away at another one. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4245
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 11:09 pm: | |
There are lots of things we could survive without. Did Detroit "need" casinos? Did the Lions "need" a new stadium downtown? Certainly the Dome could have been used for quite a while longer but I didn't hear the folks in the D bitching about Ford Field being built.
Downtown Detroit used to have an awesome retail district, it didn't fail because of suburban developments, it was already dying as the city was going downhill in general. So people moved to the burbs and shopping centers opened up to service them.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on October 23, 2007) |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3531
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 11:26 pm: | |
quote:Downtown Detroit used to have an awesome retail district, it didn't fail because of suburban developments, it was already dying as the city was going downhill in general. So people moved to the burbs and shopping centers opened up to service them.
Retail in downtown Detroit failed because spending power moved out to the suburbs. And what's one of the things that makes a location attractive to a potential resident? Nearby retail.
So expect to see yet more farms and orchards plowed under in northern Macomb County so people can build their starter McMansions in close proximity to the mall. Of course, someone gets stuck paying for the roads, sewers, water, schools, and all the other crap that modern civilization requires.
Never mind the disastrous environmental effects of more pavement. Mall parking lots alone are enough to screw up a hydrograph. Of course, if you want Metro Beach closed every day due to E. coli, who am I to argue?
And the never-ending cycle continues.... |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4248
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 12:12 am: | |
Yep spending power did move to the suburbs, they got tired of failure and wanted a better way of life and a decent return on their investment.
Someone does get stuck with paying for the infrastructure, more often then not it is the people who use it and the developers.
Environmental disaster of pavement? Detroit is mostly pavement. It is also littered with trash. Is it an environmental disaster too? |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 655
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 12:18 am: | |
"Of course, if you want Metro Beach closed every day due to E. coli, who am I to argue?"
Closures are down. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4446
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 12:20 am: | |
Maybe somebody should try to reeducate DDC or at least inform him the Michigan is not hurting for apple or cherry orchards. If I were an orchard farmer and could sell my land for a decent price, I'd do so and simply relocate my business. Trees are easy to plant and only require a very few years to become reestablished elsewhere. And I'd be smiling all the way to the bank.
It's incredible the nonsense arguments emanating from DC these days... |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3535
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 12:32 am: | |
quote:Yep spending power did move to the suburbs, they got tired of failure and wanted a better way of life and a decent return on their investment.
Detroit wasn't failing in the 1940s and 1950s, at least no more so than any other city. It was relatively prosperous due to the massive wartime investment.
quote:Someone does get stuck with paying for the infrastructure, more often then not it is the people who use it and the developers.
Then why is the State, and most localities, strapped for cash? If what you say is true, then Oakland County wouldn't need State or Federal money for the $1 billion widening of I-75 it wants.
quote:Maybe somebody should try to reeducate DDC or at least inform him the Michigan is not hurting for apple or cherry orchards. If I were an orchard farmer and could sell my land for a decent price, I'd do so and simply relocate my business. Trees are easy to plant and only require a very few years to become reestablished elsewhere. And I'd be smiling all the way to the bank.
So we should just be able to pave over the entire country, right? I mean, it's not like we're going to run out of land anytime soon.
You forget that most prime agricultural land is just beyond the periphery of human settlement--which is also a prime location because of its proximity to markets.
The prevalence of 1950s logic on some of these threads is astounding. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4251
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 12:41 am: | |
quote:Detroit wasn't failing in the 1940s and 1950s, at least no more so than any other city. It was relatively prosperous due to the massive wartime investment.
Detroit didn't empty out in the 50's either. Places like Southfield were mostly woods and dirt roads then, the real exodus came later.
quote:Then why is the State, and most localities, strapped for cash? If what you say is true, then Oakland County wouldn't need State or Federal money for the $1 billion widening of I-75 it wants.
The people in Oakland County pay more federal taxes and more gasoline taxes per resident as well. The money they would be getting from the state and federal government is money they paid in. Improving highways benefits the entire region. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3537
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 12:49 am: | |
quote:Detroit didn't empty out in the 50's either. Places like Southfield were mostly woods and dirt roads then, the real exodus came later.
Outward migration had started by then. This is well documented by the U.S. Census.
Get your causes-and-effects straightened out. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4253
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 1:01 am: | |
There has been outward migration from many cities in the US, many of them also had people moving in to replace those that had left too. Some people don't like big, crowded cities. The real exodus started later and continues to this day. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3538
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 1:16 am: | |
quote:There has been outward migration from many cities in the US, many of them also had people moving in to replace those that had left too. Some people don't like big, crowded cities.
So how do you justify continued physical expansion without population growth? Why is the Detroit area sprawling faster than any other in the U.S.? And is it merely coincidental that people in Michigan "don't like" "big crowded cities", while people in Illinois apparently do?
Shit--we're not talking Calcutta or Manhattan's Lower East Side, circa 1900.
quote:The real exodus started later and continues to this day.
You know it started "later" but don't know when. That's rich. I suppose your made-up historical data is more robust than that of the Census and Sanborn maps? |
Masterblaster
Member
Username: Masterblaster
Post Number: 97
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 7:24 am: | |
Mr. Perfectgentleman,
the acclaimed "white flight" from the cities began immediately after World War II, which ended in 1945.
Just be plain about it. You believe that the "real exodus" began after 1967, when the natives went crazy and started lootin'. I am right???
Actually from census reports, the population of Detroit declined MORE between 1950 and 1960, then it did between 1960 and 1970, the latter being the decade in which the riots occurred. |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 5249
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 7:46 am: | |
quote:There are lots of things we could survive without. Did Detroit "need" casinos? Did the Lions "need" a new stadium downtown? Certainly the Dome could have been used for quite a while longer but I didn't hear the folks in the D bitching about Ford Field being built.
Detroit isn't plowing over farmland, and has instead built that in what had already been a built up area for one hundred years already.
Try again Mr. Factual... |
Miss_cleo
Member
Username: Miss_cleo
Post Number: 925
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 8:15 am: | |
In the begining, Detroit was all farm land, so they most certainly did plow it up. Thats ok though, but no one else |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 5253
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 8:17 am: | |
How's life in Charlevoix? Is it nice?
Cool stay there... |
Miss_cleo
Member
Username: Miss_cleo
Post Number: 926
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 8:52 am: | |
lol, its true. EVERYWHERE was farm land at one point. I guess you guys pick and choose just where its ok to plow it up. The whole of Detroit got plowed up....but again, thats ok.
Life is Charlevoix is grand, dont worry, I wont be back to SE Michigan. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4256
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 9:28 am: | |
Miss_cleo -
You have a good point, it seems that some folks feel that Detroit is somehow entitled to all dollars used for development despite their horrible track record of managing the assets they have.
As I have said before, I agree some people left in the 1950's, there was also a riot in 1943 as you all know, and of course the post war years was marked by growth in the suburbs all over the country as many families were buying cars. It was a symbol of affluence to live in the suburbs.
But that should not have made any difference. If Detroit were an attractive place to live, new people would have moved in. Now the exodus continues as black folks have been leaving for years. Are they racist?
The issue that you critics of suburban development refuse to address is that many other large cities are successful and also have thriving suburbs as well. Why is Detroit failing? Why are crime rates high and the schools below par? You have to conclude that city government has done a poor job.
Electing people like Coleman Young for 5 terms after the 67 riots was an error of gargantuan proportions, talk about the wrong guy at the wrong time. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3542
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 9:31 am: | |
quote:
The issue that you critics of suburban development refuse to address is that many other large cities are successful and also have thriving suburbs as well. Why is Detroit failing? Why are crime rates high and the schools below par? You have to conclude that city government has done a poor job.
Or that Michigan invests heavily in sprawl, because ya know, Detroit is the ONLY city on earth to ever be run poorly. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4258
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 9:34 am: | |
No, there have been others, but many of them got a clue eventually. I guess that just isn't in the cards here. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3543
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 9:38 am: | |
quote:No, there have been others, but many of them got a clue eventually.
So what kind of "clue" should Detroit be looking for, Dr. Answers? What did other badly-managed cities do that Detroit isn't? |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4259
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 9:40 am: | |
See NYC. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3544
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 9:42 am: | |
New York never lost its employment base or large upper class like Detroit did. Thanks for the specifics, though. Maybe the City of Detroit should hire you as a consultant. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 698
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 9:48 am: | |
Perfectgentleman I have to make a comment about the big crowded city comment. There is no doubt certain areas of Detroit were overcrowded. But come on. Detroit was never an overcrowded overbearing city. Go look at the majority of Detroit, and it is really streetcar suburban housing with big backyards, etc.
Detroit's inner city really could almost be considered suburban. So people did not have to flee for space. Lets just get that straight.
Second because a city loses some population does not mean people are fleeing. As a city grows and expands beyond the traditional city borders, you are going to see some pop shift do to kids moving out of home and buying their own homes, etc. Does not mean people hate the city and are fleeing.
So at first, the expansion was just normal expansion of the city and not out right flight.
Perfectgentleman, I would expect someone on a forum like this to understand this. But you have to think regionally. What goes on in Clinton Township effects people in Troy or Detroit, etc. To rebuild the region everyone must work together and think together.
And if you can't do that, then maybe its time for a regional government to do it for you guys.
A quote for you from an offial plan report Toronto did. Maybe it will show you why you must worry what happens in Detroit.
----
A dynamic Downtown is vital to the health of a city and to the city-region that surrounds it. It's the one place where the forces of synergy -- the big-city feel, the excitement of street festivals, the buzz, the show-biz and sports glamour, the nightlife and the big business and political decisions -- all come together.
Many countries around the world understand that investing in their downtown areas is the key to unlocking enormous wealth and rewards. In Europe and the U.S., senior levels of government offer massive incentives to encourage downtown redevelopment.
-----
(Message edited by miketoronto on October 24, 2007) |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 290
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 10:00 am: | |
Can we at least dispel one myth that's been tossed about here? Population growth in SE MI hasn't been stagnant or declining.
It has been growing, albeit at a lower rate than the national trend. That's according to SEMCOG. Even the most recent studies by Social Compact place the population of Detroit at a higher level currently than what was recorded by the last census. If someone disagrees that the overall population has decreased, please point me to the study because I haven't seen the information you're claiming.
This is not merely a "zero sum" game. However, there are some losers here, notably the City of Detroit and Wayne County in general. What does this tell us? Nothing, except that Wayne County and the City of Detroit have lost populations. |