 
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 5269
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:13 pm: |    |
<<<*sittin back and enjoying watching Jane get it handed to her...* |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 360
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:13 pm: | |
This thread has turned into a hell hole. Ok, let's put some facts on the ground.
Mark, you can't judge a whole city that the size of 2 of the nation's biggest cities (like Atlanta or Cleveland) by a few blighted areas that you just decided to wander through (I'm sure your city has many more blighted areas than Detroit). You didn't even attempt to venture through the better areas. Also, if you didn't get robbed, your car stolen, or shot at, you can't say that Detroit is Crime ridden. It's just stretching a poor national on a city.
As for the offended posters, you're wrong as well. He did speak his mind on the issue, and he right. Detroit isn't the nicest or safest looking city around. However, you didn't have to eat him alive over it. |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 5270
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:14 pm: | |
<<<wonder if he would have said the same thing about NY |
Greatlakes
Member
Username: Greatlakes
Post Number: 41
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:14 pm: | |
Speaking ill of black people? Did one of Mark's posts get deleted? How do you get inferences of whites being more civilized or blacks being the cause of crime from
quote:A regional umbrella government for metro Detroit certainly makes sense to me. Of course this means that the folks in the suburbs would have to devote some resources to helping Detroit, but this makes sense because Detroit's plight adversely affects the entire region. By the same token, Detroit's mostly black population would also have to accept a regional approach. Black Detroiters would not control a regional government the way they presently control the city.
? |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 5271
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:16 pm: | |
quote:Detroit's mostly black population would also have to accept a regional approach.
b{Black Detroiters would not control a regional government the way they presently control the city. }
If it wasnt intended then it could easily have gotten twisted in that statement there... |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 361
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:19 pm: | |
It's not speaking ill of black people, but it's definitely sigling out black people as if they're the only ones involved in the poor running of the city. |
That_gurl_kat
Member
Username: That_gurl_kat
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:25 pm: | |
Need another example?
Mark also wrote:
"You can call me a racist if you wish (although I am not), but I believe any middle class visitor (white or black) driving his family around Detroit would be a little nervous when caught at a red light with groups of thug looking young men the only other people in sight."
Sure seems to ME that Mark uses the term "thug looking" to mean Black... otherwise why would he have had to start the sentence with "You can call me racist".
I'll take you up on that offer, Mark. |
Greatlakes
Member
Username: Greatlakes
Post Number: 42
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:28 pm: | |
quote:A regional umbrella government for metro Detroit certainly makes sense to me. Of course this means that the folks in the suburbs would have to devote some resources to helping Detroit, but this makes sense because Detroit's plight adversely affects the entire region. By the same token, Detroit's mostly black population would also have to accept a regional approach. Black Detroiters would not control a regional government the way they presently control the city.
The first sentence says that Detroit's mostly black population would, as their counterparts in the suburbs (presumed to be mostly white) would ALSO (his own words added to emphasize mutual compromise after having already mentioned the suburbs) have to accept a regional approach. The second sentence simply states the obvious: A city with 1/5 of the regional population will not have not have complete control of a regional government.
Considering that Detroit council members such as Barbara-Rose Collins have found it appropriate to make such statements as, "This [Detroit] is not a plantation. Black folks are not owned by white folks anymore" (referring to the zoo controversy in 2006), it is obvious regional cooperation is often viewed in terms of a racial power struggle.
http://www.metrotimes.com/edit orial/story.asp?id=8943
Taken in context, Mark's sentences simply state that both sides (the mostly white suburbs and mostly black Detroit) would have to compromise and work together.
Or am I missing something here? Maybe it's because I'm not white or black?
(Message edited by GreatLakes on October 25, 2007) |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 362
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:31 pm: | |
Well no, he could easily be talking about those Bangledash or Mexican guys down in SW Detroit. He wasn't necessaily speaking of black people (I hope not), but just very single resident in the city of Detroit, which is very offensive none the less.
I don't care what he is or what he thinks. He can stay is frightening scary ass in warm Tampa Bay and have his house destroyed by a hurricane for all I care while us thugs here in Detroit shoot up each other. |
That_gurl_kat
Member
Username: That_gurl_kat
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:32 pm: | |
What you're "missing" is the fact that he could have made the exact same point without bringing race into the issue. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1991
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:32 pm: | |
Mark, I wouldnt be surprised if you ever returned to Detroit. Too bad that these individual didn't see you for what you were........a tourist with money in his pocket
Tourist? Did he even stay at a hotel in the city?
Furthermore, he singled out the primarily black city government (he brought race into it, not anyone else) as if it were the sole reason for the city's decline. NOBODY's hands are clean in this mess. Not the people governing on the north or south side of 8 Mile, and not the people who governed the city before or after 1967. |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 5273
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:33 pm: | |
Agreed... |
Greatlakes
Member
Username: Greatlakes
Post Number: 43
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:54 pm: | |
quote:What you're "missing" is the fact that he could have made the exact same point without bringing race into the issue.
I agree. I can see how, as Detroitrise points out, specifically mentioning black Detroiters can imply the city's faults lie with its black population. However, that is not the only possible interpretation (as I described earlier).
It is not absolutely necessary to bring race into the issue. However, it is not totally out of left field either because as seen with the rhetoric of Detroit's own political leaders, race plays an important role in regional interaction simply because of the stark demographical differences.
I think we may have here more an issue of tactlessness* rather than a viewpoint that whites are superior to blacks, who are to blame for all of Detroit's woes. However, I'll let him defend his own views.
*For instance, your use of quotes around "missing" could be implied as a condescending tone in your reply.
(Message edited by GreatLakes on October 25, 2007) |
That_gurl_kat
Member
Username: That_gurl_kat
Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 8:07 pm: | |
No condescension intended. I am simply a rampant quote abuser. I wanted to be sure to remind the poster that I was using his/her own term.
"Kat" |
Detx
Member
Username: Detx
Post Number: 43
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:47 pm: | |
Mark,
You stay the hell outta of Detroit. How dare you come hear and tell us your legitimate experience as a tourist. And fear of crime? Obviously, you’re not used to bombed out streets, so you’re opinion doesn’t count with us Detroiters. What the heck kind of American city do you live in anyways? |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 5279
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:48 pm: | |
Detx...
Still waiting on those stats I asked you about on that other thread... |
Detx
Member
Username: Detx
Post Number: 44
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:54 pm: | |
You haven't read it yet, DS, eh?
Eh, eh ,eh ,eh ??? |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1092
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 12:51 am: | |
station-in-life perspective: the author of this thread (mark) is ~58 years old, and has been out of the city ~31 years. that's a long time to be away. plus, our cautiousness grows as we get older - meet a mate - start a family - have grandchildren, etc...
stats are funny. you see a person smoking, and warn them about cancer. they'll tell you they had a grandma that smoked, and died when she was 87. however, you don't see a lot of septuagenarians huddled outside the doors of a retirement home, puffing lucky strikes. most people recognize that smoking is bad for their health.
similarly, certain forum members shudder in disbelief when anyone mentions that the city seems dangerous. they'll tell you they and all their friends and family have lived in detroit for years and years, and never knew of any problems. while that may be honest accounting, folks who drive through neighborhoods and see burned-up, burned-down, tipping-over, and missing houses, are a bit suspicious. gang signs, stripped cars, eviction scurf, and folks with hanging around with nothing to do today, tomorrow, or next week, complete the scene. it becomes difficult to convince pragmatic people that they'll be safe and healthy in that environment.
now, the author reminds me of a recent adventure i had. i went and toured my old stomping grounds from flint...after having been away for some 12 short years. while lots of the old dwellings i visited were decrepit, abandoned, or razed - some of them had shown signs of rehab - but i had a sense that the neighborhood had gotten worse. i saw bullet holes in street signs - while before, nun-chuks, knives, chains, bats, broken bottles, tire-irons, and the like, settled the score. beyond that, the GOOD neighborhoods - away from my little ghettodom - were all messed up. crime is a cancer, and i saw it in all the erstwhile desirable areas that were bereft with bullet holes, gang graffiti, drug dealers, prostitutes, arson, and abandonment.
i might imagine the response i'd gotten if i were to post my observations regarding flint on some flintyes website. however, it seems that mark is doing just that: posting his observations. he has strong feelings, but is not passing judgement. i don't think his comments are shaming or scolding. i see him as comparing now versus then, and "thinking out loud," so to speak. we have something to learn from his posts, and he doesn't need comparative statistics to justify his feelings.
if detroit has a chance at healing, we need to be receptive to this type of input. it's interesting how all phases of GRIEF have been elicited on this thread: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. |
Iaintgotnostyle
Member
Username: Iaintgotnostyle
Post Number: 72
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 1:12 am: | |
" you can't judge a whole city that the size of 2 of the nation's biggest cities (like Atlanta or Cleveland) by a few blighted areas"
Cough,cough,,,,, a few? as if..... |
Beavis1981
Member
Username: Beavis1981
Post Number: 617
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 2:51 am: | |
Agree with carl 100%. Mark's comments were fairly mild and un-offensive. He simply shared his expierience and thoughts. There was no demands or orders. Yet, as usual he was met with the full force of the positive outlook squad. Has it ever occured to you that seeing all the decay and imagining what it would be like having to lock your house up like a prison actually does tug at the heart-strings? Then seeing kids walking to school down a street littered with broken booze bottles and syringes. It just seems like a lot of good, honest, haardworking people are "trapped" in a perpetual downward spiral of no education, no jobs, lack of hope, and soul crurshing poverty.
These people aren't in this situation cause they are bad people, lazy, or born crimimals. It could have just as easily been YOU my friends. It's all in the hands of god. I often try think and think what life would be like if the tables were turned. Instead of being tall, white, male, and middle class, I could have just as easily been born black and poor. (I'm not saying black and poor go hand in hand just offering the opposite of my life.)
I've tried to help where I can- I've takin more than a few homeless to get a bite to eat, Handed out coats, mittens,sweatshirts, amd shoes when gets cold, also have helped friends clean up abandonesd lots in their neighborhood. I've never mentioned this before fearing the "chest-thumper" lable. I just mow brought it up to illustrate the emotions that get stirred up realizing the contrast or your cozy, affluent, and safe 'burb amd some of the areas of Detroit.
Due to my "lifestyle" I should have been a "victim" of Detroit years ago. The worst thats happened is my car got stolen ant was technically redford. (I wworked in Detroit, parked in redford)
However I have had my car broken into and my "system" stolen in my own driveway up in the 'burbs.
So anyways, calm down mark was just venting, I know, I know opinion are like turd-clippers but I you don't like it ignore it. Or for you Y Ts see post #616/rule 22 |
Mark
Member
Username: Mark
Post Number: 12
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 12:19 pm: | |
Thanks for all the responses. I really didn't mean to stir up such a hornets nest. One of the things to bear in mind is that people who write about the city of Detroit on this forum (residents, suburbanites, former residents, even first time visitors)still care about the city. If we didn't care, we wouldn't bother to write anything on a forum like this. I don't think I qualify as a Detroit basher, but heck even the folks who bash Detroit still care about the place and wish things were different.
Unfortunately, the problems afflicting America's major cities---especially older so-called rust belt cities like Detroit----are no longer an important national priority. As a nation we seem indifferent to the poverty, abandonment, crime, racism, poor schools, etc. in places like Detroit. To exacerbate matters, the metro area is heavily dependent upon the auto industry which is itself in big trouble. My sense is that the economic situation in the suburbs of Detroit is not good either. From the perspective of a visitor returning to the area for the first time in more than a decade, I also noted plenty of signs of blight in the inner ring suburbs.
The bottom line is that the city's problems are part of a larger regional problem. The whole metro area needs to reinvent itself to attract new businesses and economic growth, and it is difficult for me to imagine this happening as long as the city itself (the heart of the region) is in such dire straits.
Unfortunately, the schism between city and suburbs seems to be the same as it was when I left in 1976, if not worse. Likewise, everyone in Detroit seems pretty quick to describe this schism in racial terms which is just the way it was in 1976. Thus, if you talk about crime and the perception of crime in Detroit, then you are automatically a racist. In fact, if you say anything negative about Detroit, you are a racist.
I apologize to those I have offended. My comments were meant to be constructive. Having said that, I acknowledge that it is naive to think that metro Detroiters are willing to consider bold actions such as regional government or a ban on hand guns. It seems that folks in the city and the suburbs are content keeping things the way they have always been in Detroit. |
Iaintgotnostyle
Member
Username: Iaintgotnostyle
Post Number: 75
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 12:29 pm: | |
^^^^^To the point, honest and straightforward. Not to mention %1000 correct |
6nois
Member
Username: 6nois
Post Number: 549
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 12:53 pm: | |
I honestly think a regional government would do wonders, but in order for it to work it must not be Wayne or Oakland but something totally different. I have only lived in Detroit for a year and a half and in this time I have developed a great love for this city, but when you live in the city you get really use to having a knee jerk reaction when people attack your choices and the city itself. I noticed this reaction on both sides when I moved down here, from the suburbs that its not there fault and they would love to help poor Detroit but its just too hard. And from the city the suburbs don't care at and hate everything about the city. The truth is somewhere in the middle, both places need each other and both places have good and bad things about them. Right now I am working on a letter to Gov. Granholm and my state legislators asking for legislation to create regional governments through out the state, consolidate services, and hopefully create a more equal spread of services to all residents, which I would hope could lead to a better Detroit, and a better Michigan. The only way to make radical changes is from the top because our respective local governments will never give up their little kingdoms. |
Rsa
Member
Username: Rsa
Post Number: 1303
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 1:26 pm: | |
mark; i just want to say that i appreciate your posting here and the method that you are doing so. as you can tell, it is a sensitive issue for detroiters but i think you are approaching it very politely.
your point about the perception of crime is a very poignant one. i think it is especially true when it comes to non-residents. it does scare a lot of potential residents and travellers away. however, i do not think that there is an easy fix tho this one.
lowering crime is going to have little affect on the overall appearance of the city. basically detroit is an environment like no other. it takes people out of their comfort zone and ergo makes them feel scared. this is both a hinderance and a benefit to the city. it is a hinderance for the reasons you mentioned. it is a benefit because it attracts people to live here that aren't afraid to experience things out of their comfort zone. which, in turn, tends to develop very strong community bonds. i realize that these are two extremes, but i believe that the city is trying to move in a direction that's more middle of the road.
now i completely disagree with you about turning this perception into a reality. i have neighbors that lived here in the 70's and not one of them would agree that crime is worse now than it was then. i think you'd be hard pressed to find residents of that time and now to support your claim. i also think that you won't be able to find a statistic to support that claim either.
as far as regional cooperation, i do agree with you to an extent. you are right that there is quite a schism that still exists. i think a big thing that is hindering the metro area is competition. communities are much too focused on competing for regional jobs and corporations. it's very much like a shell game that just spreads around the highs and lows of the area. on the other hand, i don't think a regional government would do much good: i think there would end up being too many strong opinions and bickering to end up solving much. and i really don't think this area would ever agree to it. maybe some kind of regional committee that spreads out a portion of taxes regionally? (i'm just spit-balling.)
as for banning handguns in the area- will never happen until the second amendment is repealed. simple illegal to do right now no matter what your stance is.
quite simply, everyone wants to base all of detroit's problems on one problem. usually that tends to be crime because of perception (not just personal, but media induced as well). crime just tends to be endemic of many other problems that need to be fixed first (both current and historical). is crime a problem? yes. are people here oblivious to or chose to ignore it? no. are people here sick of being told "what their problem is"? sure. i think that's why people tend to get so defensive about it.
anyway, like i sed mark, thank you for sharing your thoughts. i don't tend to get into these debates because neither side likes to listen to each other very much. but, this is one of the first threads that hasn't reduced down to petty name-calling and is actually getting some issues out there. so, i hope my views and opinions have helped a little. hope to see you back in the D someday. |
Janesback
Member
Username: Janesback
Post Number: 415
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 3:35 pm: | |
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
a great reply from this individual. Mark only expressed his feelings and some people in here trashed him. Next time you vacation Mark in a city, just call the Chamber of Commerce and get a heads up on the latest happenings.
Send us all a post card Mark, we'd love to hear how it went with you and your family.....Love, Jane |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 5283
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 3:37 pm: | |
Paste the link here Detx instead on being so Karl like about it. Obviously it got lost in the sea of threads... |
Quinn
Member
Username: Quinn
Post Number: 1527
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 4:49 pm: | |
Bear in a box...I meant Mark. Sorry. |
Margaret
Member
Username: Margaret
Post Number: 240
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 5:46 pm: | |
good job, Mark. nice thread, and you handled being trashed on here like a true gentleman. I too am an ex-Detroiter, and I agree with everything you're saying. you might find it interesting to read a thread I started on this forum, named "positive solutions." if some of the ideas from that thread could be put into action, I think Detroit would be on its way. I wish there was an effective way for us ex-Detroiters to have our energy, our caring, our thoughts channeled into helping bring about a solution to all of these problems. Detroiters, we do want to help! anyhow, kudos to you, Mark! |
6nois
Member
Username: 6nois
Post Number: 551
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 5:52 pm: | |
Well I know this seems strange but there is a way ex Detroits can help, by moving back, or visiting often, and spending your money in the city. Beyond that there is not much you can do. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 562
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 7:25 pm: | |
That_gurl_kat=Oakmangirl?
Ummm...no. We both love rampant quoting, but I'm more in the realm of quintroon. Oh, and I prefer "don't get your knickers in a twist". |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4381
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 8:05 pm: | |
There is only one problem with a regional government, which is what is in it for the suburbs? Not a damn thing, which means it will never happen. The solution is not to be found in government anyway, they are a big part of the problem. |
Whithorn11446
Member
Username: Whithorn11446
Post Number: 159
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 8:26 pm: | |
" i have neighbors that lived here in the 70's and not one of them would agree that crime is worse now than it was then. i think you'd be hard pressed to find residents of that time and now to support your claim. i also think that you won't be able to find a statistic to support that claim either."
Are you just referring to residents of the Northwest side ? I can sure as hell find people on the Northeast side that will tell you their neighborhoods were safer in 1974 compared to the present. Are you familiar with areas such as Gratiot and Conner ? Houston-Whittier and Hayes ? 7 Mile and Hoover ? I hope you are not seriously going to claim that those areas are safer now compared to 1976. |
Erikd
Member
Username: Erikd
Post Number: 922
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 11:49 am: | |
Mark is spot on in his observation:
quote:Unfortunately, the problems afflicting America's major cities---especially older so-called rust belt cities like Detroit----are no longer an important national priority. As a nation we seem indifferent to the poverty, abandonment, crime, racism, poor schools, etc. in places like Detroit.
For some reason, the American public considers these problems to be local issues, not national issues, despite the evidence proving otherwise.
PG gives us a perfect example of this mindset in a recent post:
quote:There is only one problem with a regional government, which is what is in it for the suburbs? Not a damn thing, which means it will never happen.
Despite the fact that Michigan ranks dead last in nearly every economic indicator, we still refuse to work together for common goals.
This is the new American anthem: If it doesn't create an immediate direct impact on my personal life, I don't give a fuck.
-----------
Crime is a frequent topic on this forum, but it is always framed as a "Detroit" problem. This mindset is simply an excuse for people to ignore the issue, and shift the responsibility to somebody else.
In reality, crime is not a Detroit problem, it is an American problem...
From 1976 to 2005, there were 594,277 people murdered in America.
The average number of murders in America over the last three decades (per year): 19,809
Total murders in Canada (pop 30 million) in 2003: 548
Total murders in Chicago (pop 2.9 million) in 2003: 598
Total American soldiers killed in Iraq war in 2003: 486
The murder rate in America is 3x higher than Canada's murder rate, and this is not an isolated situation. Every other first-world nation on earth has violent crime levels FAR below America. |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2714
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 2:38 pm: | |
Fuck Canada. Canada is like the little brother that badmouths the older brother knowing nothing will happen.
None of that will matter as we will eventually overtake Canada as the floodgates open and immigrants migrate north. In fact it is happening even now.
Crime is a Detroit problem. It may be an American(U.S.) problem as well but as part of the u.s. it is obviously a Detroit problem.
The fact is crime has been effectively reduced in NYC most conspicuously and in other cities as well. Of course it has been done for the most part by a law and order approach. And this flies in the face of the decades old liberal/democrat approach to crime in big cities............to be succinct the law and order mandate has worked to some degree and it pisses the traditional lib/dems off. I can say that, even as a traditional (for the most part) democrat.
As for PGs observation on the idea of regional gov't he was being pragmatic.......what possible reason would Wayne Oakland or Macomb county enter into the hornets nest that is Detroit. |
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