 
Mark
Member
Username: Mark
Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 11:28 pm: |    |
I returned to Detroit with my wife and teenage daughters in August. I had not been back in many years and I wanted to show my daughters the place where I grew up.
Before my trip (the impetus for which was a high school reunion), I asked you folks on the forum whether I should make this trip home. My extended family in Michigan (now living in Howell and other distant suburbs I've never heard of) thought my idea was nuts. Although they conceded that I would "probably be okay" visiting Detroit in the daytime, why take a chance of being in the middle of a drive by shooting? Besides, it would be better to remember Old Redford (my old neighborhood), downtown, Belle Isle, etc. the way it used to be---not the way it is today (I was born in Detroit in 1949 and left for Tampa in 1976.)
The responses to my original post were interesting, informative and sometimes very poignant. The people on this forum seem to love Detroit the way I once did and in some ways still do. In fact, it was the responses I received to my original post on this forum that convinced me to make the trip This post is a report on my visit: the good, the bad and the ugly.
In 4 days I covered a lot of ground from Howell to Livonia, Dearborn, Grosse Pointe and even an hour in Windsor so my kids could say they been to a foreign country! However, when I wasn't at the reunion or visiting friends and family (all of whom now live in the suburbs), I was in the city. I couldn't see every thing, but I toured a lot of areas: old Redford where I grew up; Rosedale Park; the Michigan and Martin area where I lived in the early 70s; downtown; Jefferson with stops in Indian Village, Belle Isle and the yacht club and lunch at Sinbads; an unplanned side trip on Davidson and up Grand River when I was a little lost; and a visit to the Roma cafe, my favorite restaurant in Detroit. My only regret was that the Tigers were on the road during my visit.
My bottom line assessment is that Detroit seems a little better than it did 10 or 15 years ago (especially downtown), but much of the rest of the city still seems pretty scarey. From the perspective of this visitor, crime and the fear of crime is by far and away the number one problem in Detroit. Crime has plagued the city since the riots. It is why the middle class (myself included) left Detroit. Let's face it, crime is worse today than it was in 1976 when I fled. If Detroit could solve its crime problem, there is no doubt in my mind that Detroit could flourish again.
Detroit's crime problem is a fact. Statistics show that the city has a very high crime rate.
To exacerbate matters, Detroit has an even worse Baghdad-kind of reputation for crime. It probably isn't fair, but this perception is very real. And the perception becomes the reality.
To be fair, I didn't see or experience any crime whatsoever during my visit. People were nice to me. On the other hand, there is a profound sense of physical abandonment in many parts of Detroit. Shabby party and convenience stores are the only businesses that seem to be doing well. This commercial abandonment is accompanied by a human abandonment. You don't see ordinary folks on the streets much because there isn't any reason to be on the street. Empty streets with abandoned businesses are scarey. There is dirt, litter, and deterioration everywhere. The Redford Theater looks great, but the rest of this once thriving commercial area is pretty much gone, yet Old Redford actually looks better than many areas closer to town. You can call me a racist if you wish (although I am not), but I believe any middle class visitor (white or black) driving his family around Detroit would be a little nervous when caught at a red light with groups of thug looking young men the only other people in sight.
I will be interested in hearing some reactions. I am not saying this because I don't care about Detroit. This isn't meant to just bash the city. But crime and the fear of crime is what has devastated Detroit. You can argue ad nauseum about causes and solutions, but this single problem---crime and the fear of crime---is Detroit's biggest problem. Acknowledging this bitter truth seems like the first step toward addressing the problem. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 2999
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 11:34 pm: | |
"To be fair, I didn't see or experience any crime whatsoever during my visit. People were nice to me."
Perception comes from imagination. Reality trumps perception. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1435
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 11:36 pm: | |
quote:I believe any middle class visitor (white or black) driving his family around Detroit would be a little nervous when caught at a red light with groups of thug looking young men the only other people in sight.
I've never felt that way. |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 657
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 11:36 pm: | |
Good points. I am always surprised the number of excuses people come up with instead of acknowledging the crime and empty littered streets that look so un welcoming! |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1090
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 12:11 am: | |
quote:Perception comes from imagination. Reality trumps perception.
this quote makes me curious. lilpup, if you get punched in the nose, and you perceive pain...is that your imagination? and what would be the "reality" that trumps your perception? |
Iaintgotnostyle
Member
Username: Iaintgotnostyle
Post Number: 71
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 12:20 am: | |
AH, once again another reality check for Detroit defenders. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 3001
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 12:37 am: | |
meaning implied ~
"perception: a mental image : concept"
as in
"imagination: the act or power of forming a mental image of something not present to the senses or never before wholly perceived in reality"
or even
"imagination: a creation of the mind"
as opposed to ~
"perception: physical sensation interpreted in the light of experience" |
Alan55
Member
Username: Alan55
Post Number: 690
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 12:58 am: | |
Four days in the City every twenty years, and you've got all of the answers. You should sign in to the other thread, about the next Mayor of Detroit. You should announce that you are moving back here and will run. Obviously, you are the savior everyone has been looking for. |
Hudkina
Member
Username: Hudkina
Post Number: 70
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 1:41 am: | |
Wow. I had no idea that if we stopped crime in the city everything would be okay! That's such an ingenious solution! I can't believe nobody has thought of that before!
I'm kidding...;)
I don't think anyone believes that lowering the crime rate in the city isn't the single most important step in turning the city around. However, you have to realize that you need money to do this. And when you and everyone in your family left for the suburbs, what do you think happened to the money?
And I'm not just talking about the police. I'm talking about social programs, youth programs, education, etc.
I guess we could send all of the criminals down to Tampa or Atlanta or Houston where they don't have crime... Oh wait... Those cities have some of the highest crime rates in the country...;) |
1805
Member
Username: 1805
Post Number: 77
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 2:06 am: | |
Mark,
To pontificate about crime in a city rarely visited from the comfortability of your rental car on Glidden Tour through the desolate abandonment that you helped create by leaving seems somewhat paradoxical to me. Your biggest contention is crime, yet you were greeted nicely. Of course crime is an issue; a big one. But what inspires such diatribe? You're giving analysis behind glass. You presumed that crime and fear of crime have devastated Detroit, but why feel more-so qualified to say this now if your trip here was a safe one? You're making a negative, personal assessment after a trip without complication. How are you anymore enlightened? Yes, things have changed since 1976. And, crime is still an issue.
But perhaps it's your perception (fear), too.
Acknowledging so is a "step toward addressing the problem."
(Message edited by 1805 on October 25, 2007) |
Gsgeorge
Member
Username: Gsgeorge
Post Number: 281
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 2:46 am: | |
Mark doesn't need to run for mayor because he doesn't have the answers, he's just pointing out the problems. Sorry people, but he's right--the PERCEIVED notion of impending crime is a major reason why middle-class suburbanites won't visit the city. Why would they come if they think they'll get mugged--even if they dont?? Also, large tracts of Detroit are scummy, dirty, abandoned, and crawling with shady types. There's no way around it.
But isn't it interesting that Mark wasn't assaulted or harassed, nor did he witness a crime... hmmm.... I've seen more serious crime in LA than I have in Detroit, and I was only there for four months. And I've had my fair share of harassment in this city--the incident in Capitol Park being the most noteworthy, for those of you who remember--but it's never been life-threatening or upsetting.... Hmmmm . . . . My friend's bike was stolen, and then we saw the guy riding it around the next week and took it back (without using force and without getting into a fight)--does that even count????
Another note about LA: I felt MUCH less safe in parts of LA than I feel in any part of Detroit. Compton, south of Downtown, Koreatown even. I wouldn't even step into Skid Row, and we don't really have anything like that here. Every city feels unsafe if you're unfamiliar with it--especially if you haven't been there since 1976. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 309
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 3:42 am: | |
Gsgeorge, I understand that, but incessant pointing out of the problems gets a bit tiresome, especially when it comes from people who haven't lived anywhere near Detroit in three decades. It's not like we need an outsider to tell us Detroit has crime and abandoned buildings, and I tend to get annoyed when ex-Detroiters somehow think today's Detroiters are oblivious to those problems. That said, I give Mark credit for spending so much time in the city during his visit, and his post really wasn't that offensive compared to what some ex-Detroiters post on here. |
Granmontrules
Member
Username: Granmontrules
Post Number: 234
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:41 am: | |
Stoppig crime! Wow why hasn't Mayors Kilpatrick, Archer, and Young thought of that? |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 379
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 8:04 am: | |
Mark - thanks for the report. You'll have to forgive some of the posters here, though. They live in some other Detroit where things are much rosier, or at least shelled-out is really "gritty urban experience" and something that outsiders just don't get.
None are so blind as those who will not see. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1979
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 8:12 am: | |
So essentially, what you're saying is that the difference between Detroit and other cities is that it doesn't have a nice touristy district for middle class visitors to walk around and "experience"? Actually, I'd be inclined to agree. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1853
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 8:45 am: | |
Sounds like it is a good thing that I didn't live in Detroit until the 1990s. At least that way, I don't envision Detroit's past when I look down a rough street, therefore every improvement seems like a step in the right direction and since I have know the city it has been all uphill! |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 381
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 8:57 am: | |
CP - I think that you've captured at least one of the important fault lines in this town. I'm not that old but I do remember when the Baskin Robbins on Grand River did NOT have bullet proof glass. Can you imagine? A family ice cream parlor that had to resort to putting up bullet proof glass? |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1855
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:10 am: | |
Yeah but that's my point. From my first impression the city was not all that great, but then over the years I have seen improvements to varying degrees. Therefore, in my eyes, things have always only been looking up more or less. All in all it is probably a good thing to be young in Detroit--no past nostalgic memories and a lot more willing and excited to put up with the city. |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2711
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:17 am: | |
Thanks for the honesty Mark. Having read the forum here you had to know the reactions you would get.Don't let it bother you.It is the usual knee jerk defensiveness.The facts support your observations.........much of Detroit is a no mans land.And yes crime is the major hindrance to Detroits revival.Perhaps some day that will be realized by those in power.Doubtful . |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 854
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:33 am: | |
The perception and fear is the problem. If all the fears were true, Detroit would be a whole lot more dangerous than it is. One of my nephews, raised out in Macomb County, was convinced he would be shot if stepped foot in Detroit. I explained that I worked downtown and walked all over down there with no problems, and he just didn't believe me, even when I pointed out I was never shot. Do we have to keep our eyes open, and avoid inviting trouble? Of course! But are gun wielding muggers and carjackers and purse snatchers waiting around every doorway to prey upon you? Absolutely not.
I don't know how much the bullet proof glass is needed, or perceived to be needed. We had someone open a new place in Southfield and 13 Mile, and it was all closed in with bullet proof panels and those drawers where you slide your money in. The mayor visited it on the first day it was open, saw the Lexan or whatever, pitched a fit! It was gone. So far as I know, nothing has happened to the place that would have required that protection. This just goes to show, you can give in to the perception of crime, or you can take that risk and prove them wrong. |
Quinn
Member
Username: Quinn
Post Number: 1519
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:37 am: | |
Mark I live here, and it's great. You can listen to me, or listen to the people in Howell who are scared to even think of visiting and tried to talk you out if it.
I was raised in Howell, so I know very well the majority attitude out there towards Detroit.
As far as crime stats...what are they exactly and name your source. I'd like to know for certain, because I know from neighbors and friends in IV that crime was perceptibly worse in the 70's and 80's.
I know some of the comments on here seem harsh...indeed some truly are. But it makes me think....
I have a hunch alot of people in the burbs forget that people actually live here. Ya ya detroit this detroit that...but this is my home. I've made a committment to this city. I experience it and live it every single day. My perception is that it's a great city...because that's also my reality.
Are there areas I shy away from in Detroit because A. I have no business there and or B. It's scary? Sure. I can guarantee there are areas of Tampa you stay away from. I've been to tampa several times, even off the beaten tourist track. It's not ALL pretty.
We're all in a battle of the minds here. Just like you say, the perception of Detroit by your friends/family in the burbs is that detroit is scary and unsafe. But the reality is that you visited and had a very pleasant time.
Congratulations and please pass on your experience so that, in time, we can change people's perceptions so that they more closely match reality. |
Mark
Member
Username: Mark
Post Number: 11
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:09 am: | |
Thanks for all the responses. If Detroiters are serious about trying to address the crime problem, there are steps that could be taken to address crime and the perception of crime. For starters, how about a ban on hand guns throughout southeast Michigan? The nation might take notice if metro Detroit took some bold action to deal with gun violence. With the auto industry in its present state (which affects everyone in southeast Michigan), isn't it time to consider a regional approach to problems? A regional umbrella government for metro Detroit certainly makes sense to me. Of course this means that the folks in the suburbs would have to devote some resources to helping Detroit, but this makes sense because Detroit's plight adversely affects the entire region. By the same token, Detroit's mostly black population would also have to accept a regional approach. Black Detroiters would not control a regional government the way they presently control the city. I am not at all certain metro Detroiters are ready to take bold steps to address the region's problems, but from a visitor's perspective it certainly seems like a pretty obvious first step. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1980
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:21 am: | |
For starters, how about a ban on hand guns throughout southeast Michigan?
Haha, you're about to start some shit now. |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 302
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:31 am: | |
Mark,
Thanks for the comments regarding your visit and thanks for visiting. |
Gsgeorge
Member
Username: Gsgeorge
Post Number: 283
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:36 am: | |
quote: For starters, how about a ban on hand guns throughout southeast Michigan?
How about taking away our second-amendment rights all together? I'm no gun-freak, but you can't do that. Once you ban something outright, then people want it even more.... think marijuana, etc. Guns would be even more of a problem than they are now.
PS - There are A LOT more people with guns OUTSIDE the city of Detroit, in places like Milford, Howell, Northville. The real gun carriers are out in the boonies. Banning guns in all of Southeast Michigan would piss off the suburbanites more than it would do anything to "fix" this city!
PPS - don't mind That_gurl_kat, she's new... a regional government WOULD be a good approach to bringing the suburbs and the city together, but try getting that one across L. Brooks Patterson and the Detroit City Council. HA!
(Message edited by gsgeorge on October 25, 2007) |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 382
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:37 am: | |
^^and another pounding for an observor/commentator isn't redundant/unnecessary? |
Quinn
Member
Username: Quinn
Post Number: 1522
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:58 am: | |
So Mark where are your crime stats? I look forward to seeing them as you stated it's a fact that crime in Detroit is worse now than in the 1970's.
Also, does anyone honestly believe that people are shot in the city with legally obtained guns? Lets not kid ourselves that if we passed strict gun control laws right now that it would affect the number of gun-related crimes like robbery and gang-warfare ANYWHERE, let alone detroit.
Also #2, so we can't solve our own problems, we need L.Brooks to do it for us? C'mon |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 383
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 11:17 am: | |
Quinn - I'm gone from the City, now, but up until mine and my family's departure it was certainly our collective impression that the situation had deteriorated to a point much worse than that of the 70s & 80s. My neighborhood was the area bounded by Fenkell, Grand River, Evergreen, and Lahser.
I'm doubtful that your informants re: safer streets are correct, but I'll hold my certainty at bay until you tell us where it is that is perceptively safer. |
Janesback
Member
Username: Janesback
Post Number: 413
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 11:18 am: | |
Thatgurl, you state "I bet not. I'll bet your negative and unnecessary post is the only mark you'll ever leave on the city. You should run for office. I'm sure you'd do great... you sound lily white. "
---------------------------
First of all, because of your ignorance, you failed to recognize that he is a "tourist". He is in your city, spending money and coming back for his vacation. HE IS SPENDING MONEY IN YOUR TOWN
but, because of your stupidity and racism, you fail to recognize that he is one solution to your problem. HE HAS MONEY
Then Katgurl, you spew your racism with this comment
"you sound lily white. "
--------------
Katgurl, you need help. You are the reason why, you and your ignorance. This is the classic reason why things are in the shape they are in. Your hatred of white people, and the fact that you cant handle criticism from a tourist with money who was willing to give your city a chance.
SEEK HELP HONEY, YOU NEED IT NOW........ |