 
Xd_brklyn
Member
Username: Xd_brklyn
Post Number: 330
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 11:18 am: |    |
Though he doesn't say it directly, you also have to take into account that Mark was visiting with family, presumably with his wife and kids in the car. From personal experience, it is one thing for me to explore the city on my own and another to tour the city with family. For instance, I wouldn't have a problem taking a bike straight down John R from 12 Mile to the River Walk, but would I feel comfortable taking my family on that same route--no.
Single, you can be Indiana Jones and take in whatever backward climate any city-not just Detroit-throws at you, but when you are with family, you become hyper-sensitive to the slightest danger. As father/husband you don't want subject your family to worry or fear. Think Mark's comments are keeping with a father/husband who sees this responsibility. Also think his comments show a concern for Detroit and are generally moderate in comparison to the comments you read on Detroit's own Free Press. |
Quinn
Member
Username: Quinn
Post Number: 1524
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 11:35 am: | |
Craig, I met a girl who grew up on Burns, 1st block off Jefferson, in the 60's and 70's. Before she went away to college, in the late 70's, she was mugged three times while walking home from school, they were home invaded twice and held at gun point, robbed several times and they had several cars stolen.
Also, whenever I hear a neighbor talking about crime, I ask if it's the worst it's ever been...and they always say, "No, it's bad, but it was worse 30 years or so ago. It was really bad back then." (paraphrasing of course)
Now I've been in Detroit proper for 12 years now, IV for 3 (almost 4), and we'd be on red alert if a child was mugged, or a family home-invaded.
It was her contention that crime, while still bad (I'm not arguing that it's not bad...it is bad), isn't discernably worse than in the 70's, much less MUCH WORSE. In fact it's discernably better.
I'm still waiting on the crime statistics, and if I'm wrong, then that's the REALITY and I'll accept it.
Mark, forgive me but I can't accept your statement as fact unless you back it up with some proof. Let's see the stats. |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 385
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 11:47 am: | |
Quinn - I don't know Burns. Maybe it was a nasty spot way back then.
Whether it is better today or worse really misses the point of the nay-sayers: this is a tough town to live in. I wish that we could just argue about the Tigers because crime was non-existent.
I have no solution except for the selfish one hinted at by Xd - if one is fearful just stay out of the perceived line of fire. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1984
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 11:50 am: | |
^Actually Quinn, I lived in Detroit through the 80s and 90s, and I perceive crime to have been worse in the late 80s/early 90s than it is now. I think the crime perception is being skewed by the stats, which are being skewed by the population drop (and subsequent poverty rate incline).
Today, I think the biggest reason for the declining numbers of the population (i.e. decline of black middle class numbers) is that it just makes more economic sense to live in the suburbs now. In the city, your insurance rates are astronomical, the property values suck compared to similar housing in the suburbs, and the schools systems have better ratings. You really can't even send your kids to a good private school in the city anymore. For the most part they have all been shuttered, so you still have to go to the suburbs for that. If you work in the surburbs, pay for your kids to go to school in the suburbs, and it's cheaper to exist in the suburbs, what reasoning is there for you to stay in the city?
ETA: I forgot about the taxes. Not the income tax either, the property taxes.
(Message edited by iheartthed on October 25, 2007) |
That_gurl_kat
Member
Username: That_gurl_kat
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 11:50 am: | |
Hey Janesback... look in the dictionary under "sarcasm".
This Mark guy made a comment implying that the city is in shambles because because Blacks were in control of the local government. I, in turn, made a tounge-in-cheek comment based on HIS implication that anyone but Blacks would a better job in office.
And FYI.. I'm half white and so no, I don't hate white people. I just hate people who come to a forum for Detroit then bash the city... and Blacks.
So chill out. Unbunch your panties and have a nice day. Hope to have a better convo with you soon.
(Message edited by that_gurl_kat on October 25, 2007) |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 5264
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 1:00 pm: | |
Welcome to the forum Kat....I think I am going to enjoy you... |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 219
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 1:04 pm: | |
welcome to the forum That_gurl_kat!
Have u been here b-4 under a different handle?
You seem to know about city bashing pretty well. |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 237
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 1:09 pm: | |
That_gurl_kat=Oakmangirl? |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 221
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 1:47 pm: | |
good guess.
Thought I just saw her post not long ago.
It is probably BlacksoulXX or whatever |
That_gurl_kat
Member
Username: That_gurl_kat
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 1:49 pm: | |
LOL no, I'm not oakmangirl. I'm a just a longtime lurker. However, I do have another "handle" that I use only when talking about an event I created "motorcityscramble".
I created that_gurl_kat so I can post my personal opinions without getting them mixed in with my event. |
Quinn
Member
Username: Quinn
Post Number: 1525
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 2:08 pm: | |
Totally agree gurl_cat. "Regional cooperation/control" is thinly veiled speak for "Blacks aren't smart enough only the whites can take care of business."
Bullshit. |
1805
Member
Username: 1805
Post Number: 78
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 2:16 pm: | |
I must say that I am also appalled at the argument Mark made:
"By the same token, Detroit's mostly black population would also have to accept a regional approach. Black Detroiters would not control a regional government the way they presently control the city."
Translation:
Stubborn black Detroiters who are cause of crime and out-of-towners fear of crime, must take backseat and let more civilized (white) people delegate. They won't like it, but HMPH! It is only necessary.
Now, I am being oversensitive? |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2712
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 2:28 pm: | |
Oversensitive? nah you give yourself too much credit............paranoid? maybe......neurotic likely. |
1805
Member
Username: 1805
Post Number: 79
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 2:33 pm: | |
Then justify what Mark said. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1988
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 2:38 pm: | |
Then justify what Mark said.
He won't use logic to do so... |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 386
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 2:51 pm: | |
No need for translations - just look at history. Regional initiatives have almost always met with resistance. Mark has only observed that the giant in our region will have to surrender a portion of its special status and sovereignty to realize regional collaboration.
Plenty of posters on other threads have pounded on the provincialism of the suburbs. I'm reading a pre-emptive defense of Detroit's provincialism in comments on this thread. |
1805
Member
Username: 1805
Post Number: 80
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 3:09 pm: | |
Mark made it about color when he unnecessarily pointed out BLACK Detroit. If he doesn't have his own hidden prejudices, why would the majority skin color of a city battling the effects of abandonment be relevant when discussing reality/perception/fear of crime and the steps toward regionalism?
You want a preemptive defense, Craig?
In Mark's first post:
"You can call me a racist if you wish (although I am not)."
No one called you a racist, Mark -- yet. |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 387
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 3:15 pm: | |
...and so regionalization of Detroit's sovereignty is still a bad thing, right? Mark's not all wrong, and the suburbs can hunker down and prosper in spite of the City.
Listen to the man |
1805
Member
Username: 1805
Post Number: 81
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 3:40 pm: | |
Did I say that? Did I say anything at all about the concept of regionalization?
No, what I did was expose Mark's connotation.
Listen to the man? And forgive someone who automatically evokes race as an impediment when bullshitting about "progressive" regionalism?? What!? The man is hardly qualified, and has by consequence compromised his own credibility. |
Missnmich
Member
Username: Missnmich
Post Number: 622
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 3:41 pm: | |
I normally stay out of the fray here. But I do recall at the time of the Nashville/Davidson County, Tennessee merger, there was opposition at least from African-American pastors, who worried about loss of newly earned power in a city that was approaching majority non-white status before the merger.
Perhaps Mark was awkwardly trying to make a similar point? |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2713
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 5:21 pm: | |
Its too bad the asians and hispanics are not more of a presence in detroit because there would be zero sympathy from them....
I don't have to justify anything.But there are a few obvious points mark made that have triggered the neurosis in some of you.
Detroit has been a black run city for decades.How in the hell do you nuts go from his stating this obvious fact and in turn saying that they(blacks in power) must look to regionalism to his word being thinly veiled racism????? Earth to forumers.........have you looked at the condition of the city? Police response, cleanliness,corruption(the tax break fiasco ?????
Those are not indicative of a well run city.But mark did not even go that far he simply said there needs to be more cooperation.There have been countless posting on this forum over the years of the hostility of certain council members toward suburban investors.You all want to pretend that does not happen? You can but anyone will know the truth.
As for crime I have been blowing that horn a long time.The population of Detroit continues to shrink.I guarantee the vast majority of people leaving do so because of personal safety and security.Mark was stating the obvious.
If some of you want to do an end around or some sort of pathetic "spin job" have at it.Those that are honest know the truth.There was not one observation made by mark that was exagerated sensational or untrue. |
Beavis1981
Member
Username: Beavis1981
Post Number: 616
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 5:34 pm: | |
How come it seems that half these posts could be summed up by saying- "we do not take kindly to you outside types" yee-haw!
Unwritten rule #22 If you talk shit about detroit you better live here or at least be black. |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 595
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 5:41 pm: | |
Question: Why do white people get to be individuals, but black people have to be some monolithic group with a single cultural style, socioeconomic status, opinion, etc.?
For almost 28 years I was a "black Detroiter". We had quite a bit of intragroup diversity that people like to ignore. Some of the same people who like to use this terminology get madder than a hatter when Detroiters say things like "white folks" or "white suburbanites." From THEIR perspective, it's ludicrous to lump all white people or all suburbanites together. Well, guess what? BLACK PEOPLE FEEL THE SAME WAY.
When you categorize and essentialize on the basis of race without paying any attention at all to objective reality, then you, ma'am or sir, ARE racist. As the old folks say, "A hit dog hollers." |
Scooter2k7
Member
Username: Scooter2k7
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 5:48 pm: | |
From the perspective of this visitor, crime and the fear of crime is by far and away the number one problem in Detroit.
Like there isn't crime in New York, Chicago, or even Tampa. I have been to parts of the Tampa-St. Pete area that are worse than Detroit! Just last year I was mugged on the streets in downtown Toronto, in the middle of the day. Crime is apart of a big city, thats a fact of life. But that should not detour you from visiting some place. |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 597
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 5:53 pm: | |
Scooter, the most frightened I've ever been for my safety is in two cities that are considered the world's finest -- a rough part of Paris, and a rough part of NYC.
It's all about familiarity. As a Detroit native, I can navigate the city pretty well, and know the areas that are safe (not just downtown) and the areas to avoid. But I'm not stupid enough to say that I hate Paris or I hate New York just because I had scary experiences there.
It's not about crime. It's about race. Crime didn't stop people from visiting pre-Katrina New Orleans. Crime doesn't stop Westerners who wouldn't give Detroit the time of day from trapaising all over the known world, to war zones, and showing compassion and mercy to the Other "over there" while showing nothing but contempt and disdain to the Others right in their backyard. Sheer and utter hypocrisy!
My family's been in Detroit since the first decade of the last century, and we have passed down many, many stories. Crime is a convenient excuse that some people use to hide their skeletons.
(Message edited by English on October 25, 2007) |
Quinn
Member
Username: Quinn
Post Number: 1526
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 5:54 pm: | |
Scooter couldn't agree more. I remember my co-workers and I, who all live in Detroit, actually locked our doors while driving through a group of gang guys driving to Ybor back in '99. (Ybor is fabulous by the way.)
For those of you who don't know, Ybor (hope it's not spelled Ebor), is a really cool, historic, "New Orleans-type" area of Tampa, where Mike is from.
(Message edited by quinn on October 25, 2007) |
Greatlakes
Member
Username: Greatlakes
Post Number: 40
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 6:02 pm: | |
quote:It's not about crime. It's about race. Crime didn't stop people from visiting pre-Katrina New Orleans.
Um, pre-Katrina New Orleans was "67.25% African American, 28.05% White, 0.20% Native American, 2.26% Asian, 0.02% Pacific Islander, 0.93% from other races, and 1.28% from two or more races" according to the 2000 US Census. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 311
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 6:06 pm: | |
Quinn, who's Mike? |
Janesback
Member
Username: Janesback
Post Number: 414
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 6:42 pm: | |
Mark, I wouldnt be surprised if you ever returned to Detroit. Too bad that these individual didn't see you for what you were........a tourist with money in his pocket
Instead of making Mark feel welcomed, you have trashed him for feeling uncomfortable because he spoke what he felt. You should have listened instead of trashing him for speaking his feelings...........shame shame on you. |
That_gurl_kat
Member
Username: That_gurl_kat
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 6:57 pm: | |
Hahahahahaha! You are the epitome of irony Jane. When I posted my feelings you went all psychotic on me.
"Tourist" or not, allegedly spending a couple of dollars in a city doesn't give you free reign to turn around a post about what a hell-hole you thought the city was and not expect backlash.
I'd just as soon have ZERO dollars come from Mark's little visit if it meant that hs negative opinions didn't get publicized, potentially keeping away other "tourists".
I'll take your "shame" any day if it means that I able and free to speak out against people who speak ill of Detroit and also of Black people - any day.
(Message edited by that_gurl_kat on October 25, 2007) |