  Renfirst Member Username: Renfirst Post Number: 70 Registered: 12-2006 |
Was driving on Maple and noticed the turnabouts that have replaced the lights on some intersections... Seems like a good idea, but I'm wondering how the transition is for people. I saw two cars literally going in circles trying to get into the right lane. It was amusing, but I started to think about the potential for accidents with older drivers... What do you guys think? I heard they're planning something similar for Northwestern and Orchard Lake Road... is that still happening? | ||
Abracadabra Member Username: Abracadabra Post Number: 221 Registered: 04-2007 |
One thing I am sure of : People, as a whole, are stupid. This is going to go over like a lead balloon. If you have ever had to drive down maple at rush hour, the backups at lights can reach a half mile. I just don't think people are smart enough to deal with this. | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 1357 Registered: 01-2004 |
I was at the one on Maple the other day, and talk about a bunch of confused drivers. Nobody knew when to stop or go, kinda like when the lights are out and you're supposed to treat it like a 4 way stop. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5587 Registered: 08-2004 |
They have roundabouts all over the United Kingdom. And that took some getting used to (along with driving on the left). But I do agree that USA drivers are not used to these, and could cause problems, especially older folks. I'm sure that the few that are installed there and in Sterling Heights will be closely watched to see just how many traffic accidents it will cause. As far as tie-ups go, the roundabout exiting off of the M-53 Freeway just north of 18 Mile Rd. & Van Dyke in Sterling Heights has actually reduced the traffic congestion. And like Orchard Lake & Northwestern, the 18 1/2 Mile & Van Dyke is a very busy intersection. (Message edited by Gistok on October 28, 2007) | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1237 Registered: 12-2005 |
It took about a full year or more for drivers like myself to become comfortable with the roundabout at 18 1/2 Mile Rd. and Van Dyke. Initially, the advance roadside signs and lane markings were not the best and MDOT made improvements to them which helped drivers to better know which lane to be in prior to entering the roundabout so that they could easily make their exit from it. Initially, the yellow arrow signs on the inside and outside curbs of the rotary needed constant replacing due to trucks and cars either going too fast or from having to bail in order to avoid a low-speed fender-bender. Also, several semi-trailers flipped on their side from going too fast. Lately however, the arrow signs have gone untouched and even in rush hour, there are seldom more than a half-dozen cars waiting to enter the roundabout. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 196 Registered: 07-2007 |
Maple Road is in West Bloomfield, not Farmington (Hills). I thought it was the teen drivers who weren't supposed to be able to handle roundabouts? Now it's the older drivers? Either way, don't we have enough of them in the area that we can stop treating them like a novelty or act as if this is the first of its kind? Yes, more are coming to the area on the Orchard Lake corridor and other nearby major intersections. As Gistok noted, roundabouts can often get you through an intersection faster than traffic signals. No traffic, no waiting. Even with traffic, the queue of traffic keeps moving. At a traffic signal, you sit and wait whether your one car or one of out ten. More info: http://www.nwconnector.com/ | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 5087 Registered: 10-2003 |
I started a thread about roundabouts a few years back and got shot down by a few of our UK/Canadian friends on here. Sure, they seem nifty and look "Euro" but it is a bad idea. I bet many will be switched back to normal lights within a few years. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5590 Registered: 08-2004 |
Maybe this is one of those great ideas that eventually people will get accustomed to... After all if the Swedes can switch from driving on the left to driving on the right (like they did at 6AM on Sunday September 3, 1967 after years of planning)... then maybe we can get used to roundabouts. But it would probably have to be more of a national thing rather than a local thing (like the Michigan left, and the New Jersey jug handles). | ||
Texorama Member Username: Texorama Post Number: 86 Registered: 12-2006 |
They require tweaks sometimes, but they work. There's a trio outside Brighton, at the Lee Road exit from U.S. 23. Everyone complained at first, but the massive reduction is backups has made an impression. An added advantage is that when there are accidents, they're less severe--you don't get T-boned. | ||
Jimg Member Username: Jimg Post Number: 957 Registered: 10-2003 |
Once you learn how to use 'em, Roundabouts are very efficient. Some of the large Roundabouts in London have lights controlling entry into the Roundabout. I think they are awesome. | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 883 Registered: 08-2007 |
We encountered our first roundabout in DC quite a long time ago, and we did go round and round trying to figure out where to get out. Every time we came to our corner, there was a 'No Right Turn' sign! It turns out you had to go out of the roundabout into a second service lane to turn right. Whew! Anything would be easier than that! I like the things, but you have to watch for uninitiated drivers of any age, who aren't sure about yielding, merging and which lane is the correct lane. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 535 Registered: 02-2007 |
What is the point of these? How can an circle be more efficient than straight lines at an intersection? If the jobs come back, traffic increases, they'll be ripping those out. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 198 Registered: 07-2007 |
"How can an circle be more efficient than straight lines at an intersection?" Because there's no light. Even intersections with "smart" technology like FAST-TRAC, require you to stop and wait, even when there's no opposing traffic. At a roundabout, when there's no traffic, you can slow down to check for traffic and then proceed through the roundabout and continue on your way. Wait time at a light - 30 seconds. Wait time at a roundabout - zero seconds. When there's traffic, you have to stop and wait to get into the flow of traffic. But even then, because the queue is continuously moving, you move forward towards the intersection, unlike a traffic light where you stop and wait. All that stopping, starting and idling that happens at a standard intersection is bad for the environment. Some people mentioned traffic circles in DC and Europe. Most of those are NOT roundabouts. They look similar by are different in their design in that they often encourage high speeds through the circle (roundabouts do not) and are more difficult to enter than a roundabout (traffic circles have entrances perpendicular to the circle while roundabouts enter at an angle). There are roundabouts all over the US. Michigan is not the first place to have them. They're no different than the Single-Point Urban Interchanges (SPUIs). Everyone said in advance how difficult they'll be to use but they've worked out fine and in many ways are better than the standard interchange design. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5591 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well since there were long traffic backups at Van Dyke & 18 1/2 Mile, and now with the roundabout there are few if any traffic backups... I highly doubt they'll be ripping that one out. This isn't like the gimmick of the traffic lights at Detroit freeway entrances... here today, gone tomorrow... these roundabouts have a proven track record, and likely are here to stay. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 130 Registered: 04-2007 |
GINA HOLLAND, Associated Press Writer AP Online 03-30-2001 Study: Roundabouts Reduce Accidents WASHINGTON (AP) -- Roundabouts, becoming more common in America's road system, reduce deadly automobile accidents at intersections by nearly 90 percent, researchers said Friday. Richard A. Retting, of the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, said drivers have to get over their skepticism of the modernized traffic circles. ``Mistakes at roundabouts result in fender-benders. Mistakes at stop signs and traffic signals can be catastrophic,'' said Retting, an author of the study. Also, from Arizona Dept. of Trans.: 90% reduction in fatal crashes 75% reduction in injury crashes 30-40% reduction in pedestrian crashes 10% reduction in bicycle crashes | ||
Dustin89 Member Username: Dustin89 Post Number: 148 Registered: 07-2006 |
I live not far from a small roundabout. It connects Baldwin Road, Indianwood Road, and Coats Road in Orion Township. I like it, and it was easy to get used to, but I continue to have people pull out right in front of me on it, and make other stupid mistakes. Nevertheless, I can't ever see a fatal accident happening on a low-speed roundabout, so they certainly do improve traffic safety. Tienken Road in the Shelby Twp. area has several consecutive roundabouts. I've only been through the one on Van Dyke once, and I wasn't driving. It seemed more hazardous than other roundabouts I've been through. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 3641 Registered: 12-2005 |
In case it helps anyone, here's an animation of one: How to drive in a roundabout. I don't have a problem with them except for the drivers that haven't prepared themselves to navigate the things safely. I do know people who drive far out of their way to avoid the things. Any statistics collected might be less than realistic for that reason. (Message edited by Jimaz on October 28, 2007) | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1883 Registered: 10-2006 |
Good thing that MDOT made a 9 min. video to teach the drivers how to use the roundabout, LOL: http://www.nwconnector.com/ "I bet many will be switched back to normal lights within a few years." You can have a mix--traffic lights and a circle! Some people mentioned traffic circles in DC and Europe. Most of those are NOT roundabouts. They look similar by are different in their design in that they often encourage high speeds through the circle (roundabouts do not) and are more difficult to enter than a roundabout (traffic circles have entrances perpendicular to the circle while roundabouts enter at an angle)." Fortunately MDOT's video explains the difference! | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1885 Registered: 10-2006 |
Looks like the people of Oakland County will be getting real dizzy: http://www.nwconnector.com/pro jectmaps.cfm | ||
Abracadabra Member Username: Abracadabra Post Number: 224 Registered: 04-2007 |
They say they are faster, then brag how slower speeds reduce accidents. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 132 Registered: 04-2007 |
Abracadabra wrote: "They say they are faster, then brag how slower speeds reduce accidents." They do feature slower speeds in the intersection, but they move a greater number of cars through per hour, and you spend less time at the intersection than would be the case with a traditional design. | ||
Yaktown Member Username: Yaktown Post Number: 249 Registered: 02-2006 |
"Look kids...Big Ben! Parliament!"  | ||
Mrnittany Member Username: Mrnittany Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2007 |
They'll work ... but we have to give it time. I lived in Sterling Heights and was initially very skeptical of the TWO roundabouts put in .... the one mentioned at 18H/Van Dyke and the one at Dodge Park/Utica. Both work very well now. Each intersection (especially Dodge/Utica during afternoon rush) is virtually clear of previously often-present congestion. | ||
Cmubryan Member Username: Cmubryan Post Number: 470 Registered: 11-2003 |
My parents live at the corner of Maple and Drake in West Bloomfield and I can honestly say that traffic backups have been reduced, if not completely eliminated. I can shoot down to 14 Mile or to Farmington Road in like a minute or two where it used to take me close to five to just get past that intersection. It's also very nice during light traffic hours when there is absolutely no waiting and you can speed through the intersection. | ||
Ro_resident Member Username: Ro_resident Post Number: 274 Registered: 11-2003 |
Roundabouts reduce the dead time at intersections. I'm sure you have been stuck at a red light while driving, wondering why you have a red while no cross traffic is present. You have to wait for your light to turn green before you can proceed. Roundabouts do away with the dead time as you are free to enter the intersection when clear. Modern roundabouts are designed with tight radii so the driver is forced to slow down while going through the intersection. There are a bunch of roundabouts already built in Michigan. The Center for Geographic Information shows there are already 25 roundabouts throughout the state: http://www.michigan.gov/cgi/0, 1607,7-158-12759_14194-169595- -,00.html (see the bottom) SEMCOG also has some information: http://www.semcog.org/TranPlan /Roundabouts/index.htm A nice overview from DLZ in Lansing. DLZ was the lead consultant in the Northwest Connector project: http://rebar.ecn.purdue.edu/JT RP/Road_School/2006Proceedings /Butch-Sonneborn.pdf | ||
Kpm Member Username: Kpm Post Number: 67 Registered: 08-2005 |
Out of curiosity, I drove through the new single-family home subdivision being built in conjunction with the new Partridge Creek mall in Clinton Twp. I recall there being *multiple* roundabouts in this residential development. Seemed too over-the-top. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 204 Registered: 07-2007 |
"I recall there being *multiple* roundabouts in this residential development." I saw one of these in the Oxford area. I wouldn't call them "roundabouts" though. They may look like one but the one I saw was was just a mini-sized traffic circle. We have one in Novi in a fairly recent vintage subdivision. Again, it's not a true roundabout and at the traffic volumes you would see in a residential subdivision, it's more for scenery than anything else. There is a true roundabout in the commercial development between 14 and 15/Maple on the east side of M-5 in Commerce Township. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1886 Registered: 10-2006 |
Ro_resident, I loved the bullet pt. in that PDF about half the way through where it says, "Myth #7: The public will not accept roundabouts." Followed by a pic of people rioting and lighting fires. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1853 Registered: 12-2005 |
Great--Oakland county/W.Bloomfield has put in a roundabout to ease flow through the intersection. Doesn't change the fact that Maple is still two-lane blacktop through many stretches,as it was in 1950 before all of the subdivisions and condo developments went in. Typical Oakland county roads--the same infrastructure as before the boom, you can't get east-west on half the roads, those where you can are hopelessly choked with volume, and now we're building roundabouts. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1887 Registered: 10-2006 |
"it's more for scenery than anything else." Actually prob. helps to slow traffic down in the neighborhood as well. | ||
Texorama Member Username: Texorama Post Number: 89 Registered: 12-2006 |
Yes, the tiny little traffic circles are something different--they're "traffic calming" devices. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 206 Registered: 07-2007 |
Good point. They're probably more effective than signed intersections that neighborhood residents tend to view as "rolling stops". "Typical Oakland county roads--the same infrastructure as before the boom, you can't get east-west on half the roads, those where you can are hopelessly choked with volume, and now we're building roundabouts." This is a fair criticism but I think in the grand scheme of road infrastructure, upgrading intersections has more bang for the buck. If you have a limited pot of money, you'll get a greater impact by upgrading an intersection than adding another lane. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1854 Registered: 12-2005 |
Novine--would it follow that OC should replace every traffic light intersection along Maple with a roundabout? the advanced volume of vehicles that pass either way through that intersection will then back up at the next intersection/light. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1891 Registered: 10-2006 |
56packman, looks like not everyone, but at least most of the main ones: http://www.nwconnector.com/pro jectmaps.cfm | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 207 Registered: 07-2007 |
One downside to roundabouts is the higher upfront costs, mainly due to ROW costs, especially in places like W. Bloomfield or Farmington Hills and construction costs. But over the long-term, they have very little operational costs compared to a signalized intersection which costs money to operate, upgrade and fails when the power goes out (which never happens in a roundabout). So, in an ideal world, most intersections would be that design. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1855 Registered: 12-2005 |
Very interesting--they show roundabouts being built at every intersection of fourteen mile, including 14 mile and Farmington road. There are two near-identical buildings on either side of Farmington road along 14 mile (both on the south/Farmington Hills side), these buildings were newly built within the last three years and have never been occupied, and were only recently finished on the insides. These are clearly goners according to the print on the NW connector website. These buildings could only house a small Medical practice or business. (Message edited by 56packman on October 29, 2007) | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 3294 Registered: 10-2003 |
I know those buildings. Curious looking things they are. | ||
Crystal Member Username: Crystal Post Number: 45 Registered: 05-2007 |
How do roundabouts handle pedestrians? That's one thing I have not figured out yet. Where is the crosswalk (since there is no cross)? | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1899 Registered: 10-2006 |
The ped. crosswalk is before the circle. The argument is that it is safer because the peds can cross across one direction of traffic at a time and ALL traffic must yield to ALL pedestrians at ALL times. http://www.ohm-advisors.com/ro undabouts/index.cfm# | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1900 Registered: 10-2006 |
pic: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdo nlyres/D5A02AEF-535B-4FA3-91CF -AB24B37DCE86/0/RoundaboutPedx ing.jpg | ||
Crystal Member Username: Crystal Post Number: 46 Registered: 05-2007 |
I like it, seems a lot safer for pedestrians. The double roundabout at Whitmore Lake and Lee Roads has been a challenge, but most drivers seem to be getting the hang of it. When the interchange first opened, the South Lyon Herald reported on the sharp increase in accidents there. The accidents were all attributed to drivers being unfamiliar with the rules of the road. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5592 Registered: 08-2004 |
Roundabouts are here to stay... so get used to them. Crystal, pedestrians are a very good question when it comes to roundabouts... I don't see tunneling as an option (like in Paris's Arc d'Triomphe where 12 boulevards come together). It'll likely mean more of those bulky pedestrian bridges... of the type found on Gratiot & 13 1/2 Mile (Masonic) and Gratiot & 16 Mile (Metro Parkway). | ||
Beavis1981 Member Username: Beavis1981 Post Number: 620 Registered: 08-2006 |
Dustin I was going to mention that same one! I live about 10mins from it. It is a great improvement over the previous intersection. Of course my grandmother hates it but the general consensus of anyone under 50 seems to be the opposite. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1409 Registered: 02-2006 |
The one in Kalamazoo is great. They built it during my last year of college at WMU. It turned a crazy 3-way stop intersection into this nice traffic circle. It really had a big effect on reducing Eastbound traffic jams. Westbound, the effect was a bit smaller, due to the fact that there is a normal traffic light a few hundred feet away. Pedestrians crossed in a tunnel built under the roundabout. Obviously, this is in a HEAVY pedestrian area, and tunnels aren't feasible when that isn't necessary.  | ||
Buddyinrichmond Member Username: Buddyinrichmond Post Number: 244 Registered: 02-2004 |
Those things are great! | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 208 Registered: 07-2007 |
"These are clearly goners according to the print on the NW connector website." I heard that the developer built those after he couldn't get approval for variances to build something larger. So they're built exactly to the ordinance standards, which make the properties almost unuseable and I'm sure in the current market, unleasable. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the developer built the buildings on the hope that in the long-term, the ROW would be needed and he could cash in that way. | ||
Flybydon Member Username: Flybydon Post Number: 183 Registered: 01-2005 |
Sterling Heights Turnabouts 18 1/2 miles and Van Dyke   Dodge Park and Utica Roads   Takes some getting used to but quicker that waiting for a traffic light to change. They should try these in Florida where some of the lights are four to five minutes long. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1903 Registered: 10-2006 |
"I heard that the developer built those after he couldn't get approval for variances to build something larger. So they're built exactly to the ordinance standards, which make the properties almost unuseable and I'm sure in the current market, unleasable. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the developer built the buildings on the hope that in the long-term, the ROW would be needed and he could cash in that way." Developers are good at finding their way through the system. Despite many ordinances and zoning regulations they can usually get what they want. If not, then they would do like this company and simply build in spite. | ||
Renfirst Member Username: Renfirst Post Number: 74 Registered: 12-2006 |
I think the developer had to build them to get the zoning approval for the land adjoining the two buildings. I called the city once to find out what the deal was with the two buildings. The city clerk indicated that they weren't being leased out... | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1858 Registered: 12-2005 |
No they aren't, and no one is in a hurry to get them leased, which looks hinkey. There is now a little kitchenette visible in one, a coffee pot and cups but that's about all! |
