 
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 723
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 10:50 pm: |    |
PG, Cox can not be trusted. He manipulates numbers all the time, because he is anti-city and anti-transit. I have caught him a number of times playing around with numbers, and actually contacted him about it.
In Calgary he wanted to make the transit system look like it had low % of ridership, so he included large areas of farm land and rural towns an hour out of the city in his transit stats.
In Toronto, he claimed downtown had almost no effect on the region and that only 200,000 people worked downtown. The number of downtown workers is actually over 400,000. However Cox only used about a 5 sq block area near Union Station as downtown. His stats did not even include City Hall which eveyone knows is downtown, but was one block north of what he considers the downtown.
You can not trust his stuff. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3644
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 11:02 pm: | |
quote:For about the fourth time, the numbers are from the Dept. of Transportation.
Where did the BTS get the numbers? Were they a gift from God? Materialize out of thin air? Or completely made-up bullshit? WHAT'S THE METHODOLOGY? An honest, objective analysis states the parameters involved.
quote: As Cox is a former transportation commissioner in LA he is certainly not an anti-transit zealot and is clearly more expert in these matters than both of us combined.
Cox was a citizen appointee (appointed by former Mayor Tom Bradley) a position that anyone can get. There are no qualifications whatsoever. I strongly urge you to read the paper by the gentleman from PB.
From the Cincinnati CityBeat:
quote:(Glen) Brand (Midwest representative for the Sierra Club) is quick to point out that smart growth isn't a left/right issue. Tommy G. Thompson, former Republican governor of Wisconsin, praised conservative authors Paul Weyrich and Bill Lind's study "Conservatives and Mass Transit: Is It Time for a New Look?" in its foreword for the study's "sound, conservative reasons to support public transit, when public transit is done right."
In fact, it's not conservatism but extremism that marks the anti-transit, pro-sprawl "zealots," Brand says.
"The major characteristic of these folks is intellectual dishonesty and ideological extremism," he says.
Brand isn't alone in criticizing their scholarship. Haynes Goddard, professor of economics at the University of Cincinnati, has published several papers sharply critical of Cox's methods, which he describes in last year's "The 'New Clothes' of the Libertarian Critics of Light Rail Transit" as "an endless list of data ... but never with an explicit analytical framework. Most of their writing reflects either an intellectual incapacity to formulate and reason from explicit analytical models, or in some cases where the training of the authors (some with Ph.D.s) ought to permit this, the writing borders on intellectual dishonesty."
quote:Milwaukee Mayor John Norquist says he's considering coming to Cincinnati to expose Cox and his colleagues, who "make it sound like highways are free when they cost enormous amounts of money." Norquist knows Cox well, having served with him on an Amtrak reform council.
"I think Wendell Cox is one of the biggest advocates of big spending I've ever encountered in my 28-year political career," he says.
http://citybeat.com/2003-11-12 /news.shtml |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4603
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 11:17 pm: | |
quote:About 56% of the construction and maintenance costs are funded through user fees, primarily gasoline taxes, collected by states and the federal government, and tolls collected on toll roads and bridges. The rest of the costs are borne by the federal budget.
This is not correct, I found the source document from the DOT for this Wikipedia entry and that is not what it says. I am analyzing it right now.
quote:You can not trust his stuff.
I am not a spokesperson for Mr. Cox but frankly I don't see anyone disputing his facts that I quoted in regard to the NC system. If you say he has made assertions you don't agree with then that is fine for what it is worth.
quote:Where did the BTS get the numbers? Were they a gift from God? Materialize out of thin air? Or completely made-up bullshit? WHAT'S THE METHODOLOGY? An honest, objective analysis states the parameters involved.
I suggest you look at the source document and read it. I have linked to it a number of times but here it is again.
http://www.bts.gov/programs/fe deral_subsidies_to_passenger_t ransportation/ |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3645
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 11:31 pm: | |
If one goes to the report, it says this:
quote:We calculate federal government transportation expenditures for each mode, including direct payments to carriers (both private companies and public agencies) and government expenditures on supporting infrastructure, minus revenues the federal government collects from that mode. These revenues include fuel taxes, fees, and other payments to the federal government specific to transportation, paid by companies, public agencies, or individual transportation system users.
Nice and specific the way it lumps everything together, huh? Why bother attributing revenue to sources when you can just mix it all up into a pile, and pull out a giant wad? Gotta admire this particular government report for efficiency and expediency. No messy hypotheses here!
The data tables also report something called "chained" dollars. I'm struggling to figure out what a "chained" dollar is, because the report doesn't define it. I suppose one could define that however he or she would find convenient at the moment. Pretty nifty technique!
This here is particularly ingenious. If you're not sure about what you're doing, or if you're trying to hide something, obfuscate obfuscate obfuscate! Introduce disclaimers until nobody knows what the hell you're doing anymore:
quote:It should be noted that not all types of federal subsidies will be captured using this method. Some of the indirect subsidies, such as federal tax exemptions, favorable tax treatment, or favorable laws and regulations that can create money transfers through market mechanisms, are not covered. Tax credits for Amtrak under the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997, which were specifically designed for that transportation company, have been included.
Not unlike Wendell Cox, this "study" (it's incredibly laughable to call it anything other than data manipulation) begins with results, gives them a massage, and BINGO--the desired pre-determined outcome. In this case, the outcome is determined by Bush's transportation policy. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3648
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 11:43 pm: | |
Some real scholarship:
The 'New Clothes' of the Libertarian Critics of Light Rail Transit (cited above)
http://www.cfte.org/news/New%2 0Clothes%20of%20Libertarian%20 Critics.pdf |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4605
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 11:44 pm: | |
This infantile notion that Bush is personally manipulating every shred of information that is coming out of the government is laughable. The bureaucrats at the DOT who prepare these reports are probably many of the same ones that were there under Clinton. There is no "conspiracy" at play here. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3649
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 12:10 am: | |
quote:This infantile notion that Bush is personally manipulating every shred of information that is coming out of the government is laughable.
It is laughable. Bush isn't doing the manipulating. The guy can barely speak English. You expect a guy who can't balance a budget to be able to manipulate numbers? Hah!
quote:The bureaucrats at the DOT who prepare these reports are probably many of the same ones that were there under Clinton.
Their politically-appointed overlords are accountable to the Shrub alone, not the American people.
Feel free to start refuting actual statements whenever you feel like it. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4610
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 12:16 am: | |
I don't need to refute anything. You have tried to claim the DOT stats are wrong but have not proven that. Non specific charges about data manipulation does not need to be refuted.
It wouldn't matter anyway, G-d could appear in the sky and tell you that light rail is a loser and you would argue with him. You have transit in DC, enjoy it. Meanwhile in Detroit we will have the buses and that's it for the foreseeable future. Oh, and maybe the Howell-Ann Arbor line. Whoopee. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3651
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 12:19 am: | |
quote:I don't need to refute anything. You have tried to claim the DOT stats are wrong but have not proven that. Non specific charges about data manipulation does not need to be refuted.
You're an idiot, in the truest sense of the term. God bless your children. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4612
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 12:23 am: | |
Eat shit and leave my children out of it. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 903
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 12:56 am: | |
Thread-check.
What do any of the last forty or so posts have to do with "developers and transit"?
What I see lately is PG and DiDC throwing feces at each other. Not worth reading.
Developers invest near any (apparently) permanent transportation infrastructure, be it light rail stations or expressway off-ramps (or airports, or railway freight terminals).
That won't help, but I felt this thread could use one actual unassailable fact.
Prof. Scott |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3654
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 10:24 am: | |
quote:You have tried to claim the DOT stats are wrong but have not proven that. Non specific charges about data manipulation does not need to be refuted.
The problem with the report is there is absolutely no transparency. I could do the same thing. All you have to do is put a bunch of numbers into a spreadsheet, misapply a normalization technique, and presto!--"proof". |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3655
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 10:30 am: | |
http://inside495.blogspot.com/ 2006/07/development-in-hyattsv ille.html
Wednesday, July 19, 2006
Development in Hyattsville...
There are several projects in the works for East-West Highway in Hyattsville, including student housing, luxury condominiums, luxury apartments, and plenty of retail... all on two blocks. One great amenity: Everything is within walking distance to/from Prince George's Plaza Metro Station.
One Independence Plaza
This mixed-use project includes a high-rise student housing building, with 910 beds, a luxury condominium building with 112 units, a town center with 240,000 sq. ft. of retail space, Consolidated Theaters' "Varsity 14 Cinemas", a 56,000 sq. ft. "Lifestyle Safeway", over 56,000 square feet of storefront retail, restaurants and cafes, and more... which is more than these few blocks have ever seen.
This retail/commercial destination is what used to be the metered parking lot for the metro station. Now just dirt, it will soon be 144,618 sq. ft. of retail including a Circuit City, Bally's Total Fitness, Staples, and available retail space on the first two levels, a third level of 33,129 sq. ft. of office space, and a fourth level 219,201 sq. ft. precast parking garage. Passing by the site almost everyday, and being a frequent metro rider, I can see that the development is going to somewhat block the view of the metro station, although there seems to be a passage way on the first level where a sidewalk used to be. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4629
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 11:28 am: | |
You know what else attracts massive development projects? Roads! 
|
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 1421
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 1:02 pm: | |
Except when those roads (and parking lots) eventually get crowded from all the "development" they "attracted", more roads must be built. It's a neverending cycle of concrete and construction. If a rail line is built, and becomes overcrowded, you add another car to the trains, or a few more trains to the line line, problem solved, zero capital costs (or minimal, if new rolling stock must be purchased).
There is no question that rail is a more efficient way to move "stuff", whether that stuff be people or freight.
(Message edited by focusonthed on November 01, 2007) |
The_ed
Member
Username: The_ed
Post Number: 586
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 1:05 pm: | |
The powers that be should be concentrating on building vertically rather than horizontally. That's one way to solve the parking issues. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3658
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 1:06 pm: | |
Anyone know how you create a jpg from a Google Maps (kml) file?
I've got some stuff to share that I think people would like to see. |
Billpdx
Member
Username: Billpdx
Post Number: 53
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 1:54 pm: | |
that's an ugly picture. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1562
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 1:56 pm: | |
"I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off. On and Off. All day, all night. Soon where Toontown once stood will be a string of gas stations. Inexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food, tire salons, automobile dealerships, and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it’ll be beautiful."
-Who Framed Roger Rabbit |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4656
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 1:56 pm: | |
Is this one better?
|
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1563
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 2:03 pm: | |
Boy, looks a lot different since the casino expanded. Now it's right up against the people mover track and built right out over the street. |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 1422
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 2:19 pm: | |
quote:Anyone know how you create a jpg from a Google Maps (kml) file?
I've got some stuff to share that I think people would like to see.
Hit print screen key, open Paint, and paste. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3661
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 2:46 pm: | |
Cool, thanks.
Compare and contrast to PG's photo above. These are all the same place, shown highest resolution to lowest:
|
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4674
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 2:58 pm: | |
Where is it? |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3662
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 3:05 pm: | |
This is the Wilson Boulevard corridor in Arlington, Virginia. The first photo is the Ballston area. As you zooms out, you can see where the subway line runs, and probably even figure out where the stations are. You can make out I-66 to the north.
For what it's worth, not too long ago, this area once consisted largely of used-car dealerships, auto repair, and pawn shops. There are still some vestiges of that era remaining.
The lower-density areas are primarily single-family homes. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4678
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 3:12 pm: | |
So is the point that none of this development would have happened without the rail line? Or maybe is it that Virginia is awash in federal dollars? |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1564
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 3:15 pm: | |
I wish we could see what it was like before... |
Parkguy
Member
Username: Parkguy
Post Number: 135
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 10:53 am: | |
The development in Arlington has been directly connected to the Metro line. Here is a quote from an Urban Land Institute publication on transit-oriented development and planning:
"Today, the Orange Line that runs through
Arlington is recognized as one of the best
U.S. success stories of development
around transit. The Rosslyn, Courthouse,
Clarendon, Virginia Square, and Ballston
Metrorail stations are all hubs of activity,
with pedestrian-oriented, high-density residential,
commercial, and office development
nearby. In 1970, for example, the corridor
had 5.6 million square feet (520,800
square meters) of office space and 7,000
residential units. By 2002, the total had
reached 21 million square feet (1,953,000
square meters) of office space and almost
25,000 residential units. Development in
the two Metrorail corridors in Arlington
County (the Orange Line and the Blue Line)
uses 6 percent of the land in the county
but produces almost one-half of the county’s
tax revenue. With a strong vision, smart
planning, and the political will to sustain
the vision over time, Arlington has leveraged
Metrorail to nourish strong office,
retail, and residential growth and to determine
the direction of development."
http://www.uli.org/AM/Template .cfm?Section=Search§ion=Po licy_Papers2&template=/CM/Cont entDisplay.cfm&ContentFileID=1 4592
This publication contains guidelines or guiding principles for planning transit-oriented development. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3683
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 12:03 pm: | |
I should add that ULI is a developer-oriented organization.
The Orange Line corridor is about 2-1/2 miles long, by 1/2 mile wide (see third photo above). Figure that into the numbers above. |
Parkguy
Member
Username: Parkguy
Post Number: 136
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 1:11 pm: | |
Generally, I think that new urbanists say that features, like transit stops or stores, should be no more than 1/4 mile to 1/3 mile from your starting point for walkability and practicality. One book I've been reading says 1000 feet is good-- roughly the distance from one anchor store in a mall to the farthest anchor store. That's what people will walk in an urban setting on an everyday basis. I think 1/4 mile is a good distance, though-- that's roughly a five-minute walk at a good clip. For the Orange Line figures Danindc gives, that would mean no more than 1/4 mile on either side of the line, on average. Of course, you'd still have the lateral distance between stations to think about. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 226
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 8:07 pm: | |
I think we have about 5 - 6 million sq. ft of retail in Novi in the area that PG showed in the photo. But the city only gets a modest amount of tax revenue for roads from all of that development and the county gets none. Some of the roads have been done with developer dollars but most of the improvements in the area have been paid for by taxpayers or federal and state road dollars. |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 970
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 8:07 pm: | |
Focusonthed says: "....more roads must be built. It's a neverending (sic) cycle of concrete and construction." YEAH!•••••• Nirvana. If it ever happens here it will be an indication this dumbass state may be on the rebound, and that Granholm is history. |
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