Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10692 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:41 am: | |
I am discussing it because it is one more step towards getting 'god' out of government. Many christians are getting more and more ridiculous in their belief that this country should be a christian country. The polls have told them they were wrong. Pretty important IMO. |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4864 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:41 am: | |
Why is it nonsense John? Getting rid of the national holiday is the logical extension of what you are all advocating. |
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 6378 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:42 am: | |
We're arguing this topic? |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3417 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:43 am: | |
America does the best it can to accomodate it's extremely diverse population. We have some holidays off, most businesses will respect if you need to take off a holiday for your own religious reasons. Floating holidays also facilitate this. This country probably does better than any other country at trying to be understanding and respectful of the many beliefs held by it's population. Some people, however, want more. They want their religion to be held above they others. When that is questioned, they try to point to examples of unfairness elsewhere. Look, it isn't easy. Obviously the MOST fair answer would be to abolish all religious observance on the national level completely. But is that what you really want? Or are you maybe willing to compromise and sacrifice here and there so everybody can have a little tradition and cheer? Not everything has to be completely black and white. Sometimes you have to find middle ground. Claiming we should cancel Christmas because you have a hissy fit that people want the Nativity in front of the church and not in front of city hall does not help. Trying to pass legislation that forces city hall to display religious icons does not help. I think if everybody used their head, a little common sense, and a little compassion, we wouldn't have these problems. It really isn't that hard if you don't make it hard. (Message edited by johnlodge on November 07, 2007) |
Goat Member Username: Goat
Post Number: 9912 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:48 am: | |
Pam, I remember seeing in the news a few years ago that a Church could not display their Nativity scene because it offended someone or group. I am glad this is not the case here. I agree with Johnlodge on this. Middle ground is the key but I think we should show more about religions than none at all. |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4865 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:50 am: | |
quote:The polls have told them they were wrong. Pretty important IMO. I wouldn't be making an assumption that the citizens of Berkley or the country at large agrees with the "anti-god" side because 2200 people decided to vote against REQUIRING a nativity scene be displayed on public property.
quote:I think if everybody used their head, a little common sense, and a little compassion, we wouldn't have these problems. It really isn't that hard if you don't make it hard. Your assertion is not supported by history. There are attempts underway to remove God from virtually every aspect of public life. An extremely vocal and activist minority has already made major strides in getting this accomplished. Nativity scenes were common on public property for decades and nobody took offense or complained. Berkley had one until a few people decided to complain. So this notion that we can make "reasonable accommodations" and everyone will be happy is totally false. The ACLU types will not rest until all mentions of religion is banished from the public space, a complete perversion of the establishment cause. |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3418 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:55 am: | |
PG, the citizens of Berkeley are not anti-God. They are pro-understanding. I bet you will find most of them are in fact religious, and most of them do in fact belong to a Christian denomination. But they understand why the Church is a better fit for their Nativity than City Hall. They are willing to compromise, because they are good, compassionate people. |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3419 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:56 am: | |
"Your assertion is not supported by history." This comment means nothing to me. I do not base my beliefs or ideas on whether or not they are supported by history. I base them on what I believe is right and just. |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4868 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:57 am: | |
You can be good an compassionate and have a nativity scene at city hall too. The accommodations to Islam continue and the lefties can't wait to oust Christianity from the public square. This is not compromise, it is capitulation. |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10693 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:58 am: | |
quote:I wouldn't be making an assumption that the citizens of Berkley or the country at large agrees with the "anti-god" You see it as anti-god. Many of us see it as 'forcing your god on us'. Different viewpoints, very different interpretations. I say keep your god but do not force it into my life.
quote:Nativity scenes were common on public property for decades and nobody took offense or complained. As was slavery, Jim Crow laws, etc, etc. Your good old days were not good for everyone. Using the 'it was fine then' argument has no validity in 2007. |
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2101 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:59 am: | |
quote:There are attempts underway to remove God from virtually every aspect of public life. So I guess you support the University of Michigan-Dearborn's decision to install foot baths for Muslim students? |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10694 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:00 am: | |
quote:The accommodations to Islam continue Do you really believe that there are more accomadations for islam than chritianity. Your viewpoints on these matters are crystal clear. If it is in line with your beliefs it is not an accomadation, it is an expectation. If it is in line with others it is an accomadation. Believing that islam is getting preference over christianity shows how completely unreasonable you are on this topic. |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4869 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:00 am: | |
Nativity scenes are "forcing religion into someone's life?" Please. |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10695 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:01 am: | |
iheart - your last post is in line with what I was thinking in post 10694. I guess PGs bias is as clear as I thought. |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10696 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:03 am: | |
quote:Nativity scenes are "forcing religion into someone's life?" Please. Nativity scenes at a government building are supporting one religion over another. Churches are more than welcome to display what they want but it is not appropiate for a public entity to support one specific religion. How about this - I will support whatever religous symbols at government offices but I will request my taxes back since they are not supporting my beliefs. |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4870 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:05 am: | |
quote:So I guess you support the University of Michigan-Dearborn's decision to install foot baths for Muslim students? No I don't because we are accommodating Islam and trying to remove accommodation's for Christianity. If we are going to remove all religious symbols from public life, it needs to apply to all. |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3420 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:08 am: | |
The people have spoken, and being that Berkeley is overwhelmingly white, I doubt Islamists had much to do with it. This was primarily a case of Christians who demanded the Nativity be in front of city hall vs. Christians who choose to be understanding and realize the nearby church is a more logical fit. |
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2102 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:10 am: | |
quote: No I don't because we are accommodating Islam and trying to remove accommodation's for Christianity. If we are going to remove all religious symbols from public life, it needs to apply to all. Exactly what accommodations have been removed to not allow you or anyone else to practice Christianity freely? |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10697 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:11 am: | |
JL - You have to understand that PG is on edge because he is the most hated, victimized tyep in society: White, christian, straight male. You must appreciate the bias he has faced his entire life. |
Danny Member Username: Danny
Post Number: 6771 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:14 am: | |
I see what Rb336 is telling us. Ferndale or should I say "HOMOPOLIS" has its first gay mayor due a lot of support in the very large homosexual community. Berkley citizens wants worldy stuff into the Christmas nativity scene. What a upside down Twilight Zone society we lived in. |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3421 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:16 am: | |
Danny, the gay community in Ferndale is estimated at less than 5% of the total population. Being that Covey won by around 10% of the votes, your logic is flawed. |
Danny Member Username: Danny
Post Number: 6772 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:19 am: | |
Johnlodge The Gay community in Ferndale is 5% and its the highest than any other communities in Oakland County. My logic is not flawed. I just read the factual data. |
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10698 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:20 am: | |
Now that Danny brings the gay population in to this I am happy about the Berkley thing. The people pushing this probably took time off from their anti-gay crusades for awhile. |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3422 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:24 am: | |
Danny, I guarantee you there are more gay people in Detroit. Better look out, one of them might try to kiss you. Then you'll catch the gay and move to Ferndale too. |
6nois Member Username: 6nois
Post Number: 569 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:42 am: | |
Covey is a great person, real nice guy too. I am glad Berkley took a stand and is not required to have a nativity. The church is the best fit. I liked it better when PG stayed on his side of the fence. |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4874 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:46 am: | |
Yeah, I know you libs like it when you can just agree with each other and nobody has a contrary point of view. |
Leland_palmer Member Username: Leland_palmer
Post Number: 409 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:56 am: | |
Why do you need to have a nativity scene at city hall to make you feel Christian? It makes no sense to make a law to require the city to do so. Things were perfectly fine with having the display in front of the church on 12 mile. |
Goat Member Username: Goat
Post Number: 9915 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:11 pm: | |
"Homopolis" I haven't heard that one yet from our resident homo-phobic homeboy. |
Crystal Member Username: Crystal
Post Number: 58 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:44 pm: | |
Homopolis? I'm pretty sure that's name-calling. "Entries that are abusive, off subject, silly, containing personal attacks, name-calling, threats, libels, illegal activities, or hate group messages will be removed..." |
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 3168 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:48 pm: | |
I like "catch the gay". |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3428 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:49 pm: | |
;) |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4879 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:49 pm: | |
And again the speech police arrive right on cue. This forum is becoming more pathetic by the day. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on November 07, 2007) |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3429 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:50 pm: | |
Actually, it would be right on cue. If it was on queue, we'd have to wait for it a bit. |
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 1859 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:51 pm: | |
every day you are here PG, yes |
6nois Member Username: 6nois
Post Number: 570 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:55 pm: | |
PG there are plenty of discussions and debates on the Detroit side of the Forum, but you tend to just cause trouble. You divide everyone up by party and try to create partisan debates over drivle. |
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall
Post Number: 510 Registered: 05-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:55 pm: | |
How about that "..give unto Caesar.." quote? Christians should act like more like Christ and cut others some slack. Scapegoating and throwing people under the bus is not the way to go. |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4881 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:59 pm: | |
quote:PG there are plenty of discussions and debates on the Detroit side of the Forum, but you tend to just cause trouble. You divide everyone up by party and try to create partisan debates over drivle. Right, whoever doesn't agree with the majority opinion on this forum is a divider. Some of you may be surprised to know that in the real world, most of your positions would be in the minority. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5680 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 1:02 pm: | |
From a historic perspective... The first US coin to have IN GOD WE TRUST occurred during the Civil War when President Lincoln's Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase (with Lincoln's blessing) authorized the new 2 cent piece (which came out in 1964) to have IN GOD WE TRUST on it. By 1909 all US coinage had the motto. IN GOD WE TRUST ironically did not appear on US paper money until 1953. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5681 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 1:12 pm: | |
Quote from Hyacinth Bucket (pronunced "Bouquet") of the PBS British Comedy Show "Keeping Up Appearances"....
"I cannot abide people who put 'Merry X-MAS' on their Christmas cards... especially when they spell 'Merry' with an I and an E". |
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2105 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 1:20 pm: | |
Actually, it would be right on cue. If it was on queue, we'd have to wait for it a bit. LOL. Surely a programmer like himself, making 6 figures/year would know the difference very well. |
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336
Post Number: 3411 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 1:26 pm: | |
"Christmas has a lot of pagan elements in it" don't forget Santa Claus (see Odin as leader of the wild hunt) Mistletoe, yule logs... "You can be good an compassionate and have a nativity scene at city hall too. The accommodations to Islam continue and the lefties can't wait to oust Christianity from the public square. This is not compromise, it is capitulation." ahhh, more terrified paranoia from the right. NO religion belongs in the public square. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" sound familiar? |
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336
Post Number: 3412 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 1:28 pm: | |
"Some of you may be surprised to know that in the real world, most of your positions would be in the minority" interesting, but I seriously doubt that. at least not in the industrialized world |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4889 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 1:31 pm: | |
You are delusional Arby. Your support for Kucinich is proof in itself. |
Jimg Member Username: Jimg
Post Number: 960 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 2:50 pm: | |
Covey has done many good things for Ferndale - the annual pub crawl, blues fest, highlighting charities - I think he'll do a fine job as Mayor. |
Diehard Member Username: Diehard
Post Number: 187 Registered: 03-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 4:18 pm: | |
I remember seeing in the news a few years ago that a Church could not display their Nativity scene because it offended someone or group. I would love to see that story link... please indulge us. |
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336
Post Number: 3428 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 4:22 pm: | |
"You are delusional Arby. Your support for Kucinich is proof in itself." that is funny pg, considering i seriously doubt that you could accurately state his positions on more than 2 issues as reps lose a state house, lose a red-state governership and gain nothing but a couple of dog-catcher-type positions (Message edited by rb336 on November 07, 2007) |
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4918 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 4:26 pm: | |
Sure I could. He wants to impeach Cheney and he has become a laughing stock for that. Even fellow Dems are embarrassed by him and tried to silence him. He also thinks that the Iraq war is an illegal occupation and has sat down with our enemies to condemn his own country. He then refused to visit our own troops in Iraq. If you think that is mainstream America you are nuts. |
Iaintgotnostyle Member Username: Iaintgotnostyle
Post Number: 102 Registered: 10-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 4:30 pm: | |
"Some people, however, want more. They want their religion to be held above they others." Oh I think you meant that similarly like the muslims and their foot baths in our federally funded schools right? thought so |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3446 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 4:32 pm: | |
Don't look at me, one with a lack of style. I was never defending the footbath thing. |