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Archive through November 07, 2007Oldredfordette30 11-07-07  10:39 am
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Jt1
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am discussing it because it is one more step towards getting 'god' out of government.

Many christians are getting more and more ridiculous in their belief that this country should be a christian country. The polls have told them they were wrong. Pretty important IMO.
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Perfectgentleman
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why is it nonsense John? Getting rid of the national holiday is the logical extension of what you are all advocating.
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Smogboy
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We're arguing this topic?
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

America does the best it can to accomodate it's extremely diverse population. We have some holidays off, most businesses will respect if you need to take off a holiday for your own religious reasons. Floating holidays also facilitate this. This country probably does better than any other country at trying to be understanding and respectful of the many beliefs held by it's population.

Some people, however, want more. They want their religion to be held above they others. When that is questioned, they try to point to examples of unfairness elsewhere. Look, it isn't easy. Obviously the MOST fair answer would be to abolish all religious observance on the national level completely. But is that what you really want? Or are you maybe willing to compromise and sacrifice here and there so everybody can have a little tradition and cheer?

Not everything has to be completely black and white. Sometimes you have to find middle ground. Claiming we should cancel Christmas because you have a hissy fit that people want the Nativity in front of the church and not in front of city hall does not help. Trying to pass legislation that forces city hall to display religious icons does not help.

I think if everybody used their head, a little common sense, and a little compassion, we wouldn't have these problems. It really isn't that hard if you don't make it hard.

(Message edited by johnlodge on November 07, 2007)
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Goat
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pam, I remember seeing in the news a few years ago that a Church could not display their Nativity scene because it offended someone or group. I am glad this is not the case here.
I agree with Johnlodge on this. Middle ground is the key but I think we should show more about religions than none at all.
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Perfectgentleman
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Post Number: 4865
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The polls have told them they were wrong. Pretty important IMO.



I wouldn't be making an assumption that the citizens of Berkley or the country at large agrees with the "anti-god" side because 2200 people decided to vote against REQUIRING a nativity scene be displayed on public property.

quote:

I think if everybody used their head, a little common sense, and a little compassion, we wouldn't have these problems. It really isn't that hard if you don't make it hard.



Your assertion is not supported by history. There are attempts underway to remove God from virtually every aspect of public life. An extremely vocal and activist minority has already made major strides in getting this accomplished.

Nativity scenes were common on public property for decades and nobody took offense or complained. Berkley had one until a few people decided to complain. So this notion that we can make "reasonable accommodations" and everyone will be happy is totally false. The ACLU types will not rest until all mentions of religion is banished from the public space, a complete perversion of the establishment cause.
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PG, the citizens of Berkeley are not anti-God. They are pro-understanding. I bet you will find most of them are in fact religious, and most of them do in fact belong to a Christian denomination. But they understand why the Church is a better fit for their Nativity than City Hall. They are willing to compromise, because they are good, compassionate people.
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Your assertion is not supported by history."

This comment means nothing to me. I do not base my beliefs or ideas on whether or not they are supported by history. I base them on what I believe is right and just.
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Perfectgentleman
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You can be good an compassionate and have a nativity scene at city hall too. The accommodations to Islam continue and the lefties can't wait to oust Christianity from the public square. This is not compromise, it is capitulation.
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Jt1
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I wouldn't be making an assumption that the citizens of Berkley or the country at large agrees with the "anti-god"



You see it as anti-god. Many of us see it as 'forcing your god on us'. Different viewpoints, very different interpretations. I say keep your god but do not force it into my life.

quote:

Nativity scenes were common on public property for decades and nobody took offense or complained.



As was slavery, Jim Crow laws, etc, etc. Your good old days were not good for everyone. Using the 'it was fine then' argument has no validity in 2007.
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

There are attempts underway to remove God from virtually every aspect of public life.



So I guess you support the University of Michigan-Dearborn's decision to install foot baths for Muslim students?
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Jt1
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Post Number: 10694
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The accommodations to Islam continue



Do you really believe that there are more accomadations for islam than chritianity. Your viewpoints on these matters are crystal clear. If it is in line with your beliefs it is not an accomadation, it is an expectation. If it is in line with others it is an accomadation.

Believing that islam is getting preference over christianity shows how completely unreasonable you are on this topic.
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Perfectgentleman
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nativity scenes are "forcing religion into someone's life?" Please.
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Jt1
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

iheart - your last post is in line with what I was thinking in post 10694. I guess PGs bias is as clear as I thought.
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Jt1
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Nativity scenes are "forcing religion into someone's life?" Please.



Nativity scenes at a government building are supporting one religion over another. Churches are more than welcome to display what they want but it is not appropiate for a public entity to support one specific religion.

How about this - I will support whatever religous symbols at government offices but I will request my taxes back since they are not supporting my beliefs.
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Perfectgentleman
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

So I guess you support the University of Michigan-Dearborn's decision to install foot baths for Muslim students?



No I don't because we are accommodating Islam and trying to remove accommodation's for Christianity. If we are going to remove all religious symbols from public life, it needs to apply to all.
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The people have spoken, and being that Berkeley is overwhelmingly white, I doubt Islamists had much to do with it. This was primarily a case of Christians who demanded the Nativity be in front of city hall vs. Christians who choose to be understanding and realize the nearby church is a more logical fit.
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:


No I don't because we are accommodating Islam and trying to remove accommodation's for Christianity. If we are going to remove all religious symbols from public life, it needs to apply to all.



Exactly what accommodations have been removed to not allow you or anyone else to practice Christianity freely?
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Jt1
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JL - You have to understand that PG is on edge because he is the most hated, victimized tyep in society: White, christian, straight male.

You must appreciate the bias he has faced his entire life. :-)
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Danny
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I see what Rb336 is telling us. Ferndale or should I say "HOMOPOLIS" has its first gay mayor due a lot of support in the very large homosexual community.

Berkley citizens wants worldy stuff into the Christmas nativity scene. What a upside down Twilight Zone society we lived in.
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danny, the gay community in Ferndale is estimated at less than 5% of the total population. Being that Covey won by around 10% of the votes, your logic is flawed.
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Danny
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Johnlodge

The Gay community in Ferndale is 5% and its the highest than any other communities in Oakland County. My logic is not flawed. I just read the factual data.
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Jt1
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now that Danny brings the gay population in to this I am happy about the Berkley thing.

The people pushing this probably took time off from their anti-gay crusades for awhile.
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danny,

I guarantee you there are more gay people in Detroit. Better look out, one of them might try to kiss you. Then you'll catch the gay and move to Ferndale too.
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6nois
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Covey is a great person, real nice guy too. I am glad Berkley took a stand and is not required to have a nativity. The church is the best fit. I liked it better when PG stayed on his side of the fence.
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Perfectgentleman
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I know you libs like it when you can just agree with each other and nobody has a contrary point of view.
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Leland_palmer
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why do you need to have a nativity scene at city hall to make you feel Christian?

It makes no sense to make a law to require the city to do so.

Things were perfectly fine with having the display in front of the church on 12 mile.
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Goat
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Homopolis" I haven't heard that one yet from our resident homo-phobic homeboy.
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Crystal
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Homopolis? I'm pretty sure that's name-calling.

"Entries that are abusive, off subject, silly, containing personal attacks, name-calling, threats, libels, illegal activities, or hate group messages will be removed..."
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like "catch the gay".
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

;)
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Perfectgentleman
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And again the speech police arrive right on cue. This forum is becoming more pathetic by the day.



(Message edited by perfectgentleman on November 07, 2007)
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, it would be right on cue. If it was on queue, we'd have to wait for it a bit.
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Gravitymachine
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

every day you are here PG, yes
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6nois
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PG there are plenty of discussions and debates on the Detroit side of the Forum, but you tend to just cause trouble. You divide everyone up by party and try to create partisan debates over drivle.
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Paulmcall
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How about that "..give unto Caesar.." quote?
Christians should act like more like Christ and cut others some slack. Scapegoating and throwing people under the bus is not the way to go.
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Perfectgentleman
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

PG there are plenty of discussions and debates on the Detroit side of the Forum, but you tend to just cause trouble. You divide everyone up by party and try to create partisan debates over drivle.



Right, whoever doesn't agree with the majority opinion on this forum is a divider. Some of you may be surprised to know that in the real world, most of your positions would be in the minority.
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Gistok
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From a historic perspective...

The first US coin to have IN GOD WE TRUST occurred during the Civil War when President Lincoln's Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase (with Lincoln's blessing) authorized the new 2 cent piece (which came out in 1964) to have IN GOD WE TRUST on it. By 1909 all US coinage had the motto.

IN GOD WE TRUST ironically did not appear on US paper money until 1953.
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Gistok
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 1:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote from Hyacinth Bucket (pronunced "Bouquet") of the PBS British Comedy Show "Keeping Up Appearances"....





"I cannot abide people who put 'Merry X-MAS' on their Christmas cards... especially when they spell 'Merry' with an I and an E". :-(
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, it would be right on cue. If it was on queue, we'd have to wait for it a bit.

LOL. Surely a programmer like himself, making 6 figures/year would know the difference very well.
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Rb336
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Christmas has a lot of pagan elements in it"

don't forget Santa Claus (see Odin as leader of the wild hunt) Mistletoe, yule logs...

"You can be good an compassionate and have a nativity scene at city hall too. The accommodations to Islam continue and the lefties can't wait to oust Christianity from the public square. This is not compromise, it is capitulation."

ahhh, more terrified paranoia from the right. NO religion belongs in the public square. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" sound familiar?
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Rb336
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Some of you may be surprised to know that in the real world, most of your positions would be in the minority"

interesting, but I seriously doubt that. at least not in the industrialized world
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Perfectgentleman
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are delusional Arby. Your support for Kucinich is proof in itself.
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Jimg
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Covey has done many good things for Ferndale - the annual pub crawl, blues fest, highlighting charities - I think he'll do a fine job as Mayor.
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Diehard
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I remember seeing in the news a few years ago that a Church could not display their Nativity scene because it offended someone or group.

I would love to see that story link... please indulge us.
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Rb336
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"You are delusional Arby. Your support for Kucinich is proof in itself."

that is funny pg, considering i seriously doubt that you could accurately state his positions on more than 2 issues

as reps lose a state house, lose a red-state governership and gain nothing but a couple of dog-catcher-type positions

(Message edited by rb336 on November 07, 2007)
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Perfectgentleman
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sure I could. He wants to impeach Cheney and he has become a laughing stock for that. Even fellow Dems are embarrassed by him and tried to silence him.

He also thinks that the Iraq war is an illegal occupation and has sat down with our enemies to condemn his own country. He then refused to visit our own troops in Iraq.

If you think that is mainstream America you are nuts.
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Iaintgotnostyle
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Some people, however, want more. They want their religion to be held above they others."


Oh I think you meant that similarly like the muslims and their foot baths in our federally funded schools right?

thought so
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't look at me, one with a lack of style. I was never defending the footbath thing.

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