 
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 554
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 10:34 am: |    |
Quote: "Someone posed the question as to why we are developing the vacant land on the outer edges of suburbia instead of the vacant land closer to downtown Detroit."
Agreeing, Bad investment. Put up a McMansion in one spot and sell for 200 or another spot and sell for 500. A developer would be crazy to start homes in Detroit burbs, unless they are under some subsidy. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2108
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 10:37 am: | |
quote:A developer would be crazy to start homes in Detroit burbs, unless they are under some subsidy.
Yup:
quote:"It's ripening," Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson said of the county's northwestern frontier. "There are other areas, too, but development follows expressways and sewers, no doubt about it." |
Chris_rohn
Member
Username: Chris_rohn
Post Number: 343
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 10:43 am: | |
What really gets me is the expansion of Detroit Water & Sewer to FLINT. WTF, yo? |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 3083
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 10:46 am: | |
I am looking to move to NW Oakland County within the next couple of years because I'm seeking acreage (more than 10 acres). The trend toward suburbanization in that area disturbs me. I'd like to see it stay rural, without all the congestion, inflated property values, and regulations that follow population. |
Detourdetroit
Member
Username: Detourdetroit
Post Number: 349
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:10 am: | |
Nature
Rural = Living off the land
Suburban = "SUB" Urban
Urban = City
City from Civis
Civis = Citizen, Civilization
Suburban = SubCivilization? |
Detourdetroit
Member
Username: Detourdetroit
Post Number: 350
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:13 am: | |
Brooks is ripening too... |
Gsgeorge
Member
Username: Gsgeorge
Post Number: 316
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:15 am: | |
Fury, have fun out there. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10701
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:18 am: | |
quote:Simple answer? Because people aren't murdering each other in record numbers in Oakland Country.
Do you think that people will be moving from Detroit to these new places. This will have a greater effect on existing, safe cities and townships. South Oakland County has much more to lose than Detroit with this development.
But we really, really need this new development to keep pace with our booming growth in residents in SE Michigan.
Detroit has already been hit hard, this will effect cities outside of Detroit.
Time to update my resume and get out of this state, there is no hope for it. |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 398
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:22 am: | |
DD - haha... Huge populated tracts of urban Detroit have more in common with a post-apocalypse than anything civilized people would recognize.
My gosh, people: different strokes, right?
Are any of you who prefer to live in tiny bungalows in Ferndale and RO really damaged by another's decision to live in 2500 sq feet in Groveland? Tell me that the infrastructure is an unbearable burden and I'll respond that most of the freeways in Detroit are burdens to the many who never use them/venture into Detroit. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2111
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:27 am: | |
Time to update my resume and get out of this state, there is no hope for it.
Yeah, I kinda feel that way too. I know, I'm already gone, but I was a lot more optimistic about returning in the past than I am now. If it isn't already clear to everyone that these sprawl patterns are unhealthy for the local economy, then I don't know what to say.
I would pay very close attention to holiday retail spending this season. I think the signs are pointing to a very disappointing season considering 1)the job losses, 2)the foreclosure fiasco, 3)ballooning cost of commuting (i.e. gas prices). |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10704
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:28 am: | |
quote:Tell me that the infrastructure is an unbearable burden and I'll respond that most of the freeways in Detroit are burdens to the many who never use them/venture into Detroit.
It is not just about Detroit. The State (taxpayers) are paying to maintain infrastrcuture and roads. This is a burden on the entire state.
Utilites cost money, the money spent on this will be spread to rate payers over the entire area, etc.
You seem to have issues looking at the big picture and the cost burden of new raods, utilities, hospitals, schools, churches, etc when the region is not growing and will likely see a loss in population in the very near future.
This effects people in Detroit, Warren, Rochester, Grand Rapids, Dearborn, Novi, etc, etc.
If you, as an individual can't afford to mainatain and pay for your current home does it make sense to buy another? The State can't maintain existing roads and bridges, we still have a large gap in our budget, we have long term liabilities with no way to cover them, etc. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10705
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:29 am: | |
quote:I would pay very close attention to holiday retail spending this season. I think the signs are pointing to a very disappointing season considering 1)the job losses, 2)the foreclosure fiasco, 3)ballooning cost of commuting (i.e. gas prices).
Don't forget the people that took auto buyouts leaving the State. We still have not seen the full impact of that. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3463
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:33 am: | |
You people who think the two options here are moving to Davisburg or living in Detroit are completely missing the point, and your arguments are baseless. It is not Detroit being hurt by this anymore, sprawl already decimated that city. It's not even so much the Inner Ring suburbs anymore. The Inner Ring burbs that are succeptible to this effect have already been hit by it. No, now the flight is from Farmington, Commerce, Wolverine Lake, Southfield... Soon their strip malls will empty out, their neighborhoods will have unoccupied homes. This is not Detroit vs. suburbs anymore. It is suburbs vs. suburbs. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 3089
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:41 am: | |
"Fury, have fun out there. Don't let the door hit you on the way out."
Screw you, Gsgeorge. One size does not fit all. You have no idea why I need the acreage. The lifestyle I desire cannot exist within the confines of a city or inner-ring suburban situation. I did say I wanted to see the RURAL atmosphere continue in NW Oakland. I am not, and have never been, in favor of cookie-cutter exurban subdivisions.
People who know me know that I support urban development and living. A 30 X 100 lot just doesn't work for me, at this time in my life.
I am involved in a lot of Detroit-oriented cultural activities. I support the city with my time, energy, and money.
That's enough... I don't have to justify my viewpoint to you. Again, take a flying leap. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10707
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:43 am: | |
Fury - I agree the rural lifestyle can be appealing. The issue with this development is that it appears that it will once again take the rural environment you want and turn it into suburbia.
It's happened to people for the last 20-30 years in SE Michigan. In this state if you truly want rural I would receommend moving at least 50-75 miles outside of SE Michigan. |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 672
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:45 am: | |
Chris_Rohn The DWSD is already to Flint, they have a line going from Lake Huron to Flint town. Flint gets their water from DWSD already. But a line along 75 further north WTF!? is right!
One more thing a six TWP are growing by 20k during the nineties and only 19K from now to 2030 is pretty lame growth. Hell Macomb went from about 23K in 1990 to over 70K today. As well as Chesterfield from 23K to over 45K today. It will be mostly rich people going to move out there. To bad as that is a really beautiful part of the state. |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 673
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:46 am: | |
Does anyone else think that big articles and news stories on a "growing" or "booming" area are some sort of advertisement to encourage people to move there because it is a "hot" area according to the press. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2654
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:48 am: | |
"You people who think the two options here are moving to Davisburg or living in Detroit are completely missing the point, and your arguments are baseless."
No, you're missing the point. While it's an unhealthy idea for the region to continue developing vacant land while its losing population, once people decide that that's what they're going to do regardless, then they have two options, both with very different effects on the region.
Option 1 is that vacant land on the outskirts of suburbia can be developed (sprawl), and Option 2 is that we can develop the vast amount of vacant land scattered all over Detroit (infill).
Now, when you consider the fact that (whether you like it or not) a market exists for new developments and that developers are willing to invest money to develop vacant land, you have to wonder why Detroit can't get its act together enough to make all the vacant land it has more attractive for people who are willing and able to turn it into something useful.
I'm sorry people, but a decades worth of tax credits simply isn't a good enough incentive. In truth, the solution is far lest costly than that. You have to stop killing your neighbors every week and burning and vandalizing vacant structures in your own neighborhoods...do this, and you might be surprised at how pleasant life can be.
It's not the fault of the city's infrastructure (its neighborhoods, buildings, streets, etc.) that they're in such poor shape...It's the fault of the people. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10709
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:50 am: | |
quote:Option 1 is that vacant land on the outskirts of suburbia can be developed (sprawl), and Option 2 is that we can develop the vast amount of vacant land scattered all over Detroit (infill).
Not true. The current city/suburban developments are sufficient for the current population and we are seeing little, if any growth in population.
Your premise would make sense if the area was seeing any real population growth. It is not.
It is not a purely Detroit issue as you seem to think. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2114
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:51 am: | |
quote:I'm sorry people, but a decades worth of tax credits simply isn't a good enough incentive. In truth, the solution is far lest costly than that. You have to stop killing your neighbors every week and burning and vandalizing vacant structures in your own neighborhoods...do this, and you might be surprised at how pleasant life can be.
Once again, you speak not of what you know. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10710
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:53 am: | |
quote:Now, when you consider the fact that (whether you like it or not) a market exists for new developments
That has yet to be seen. Developers are selling homes at a loss on many exurban developments. I know a fair number of developers that are losing money on developments way out and willing to dump the land they own cheap. They see no potential for a fair profit in areas that looked appealing just 2-3 years ago. I'll take the word of the established developers I know since some have been in the business for 30-40 years. |
Viziondetroit
Member
Username: Viziondetroit
Post Number: 1288
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:58 am: | |
There are only two extremes people think they can resort to on this board.
1) Detroit is a shit hole and full of crime, blight, corrupt government etc. The entire city is not bad, the spotlight illuminates those bad elements and far less actually goes on than people really think. There are tons of Detroiters that can back me up on that, but the media continues to push forward those negative elements (not saying they don't happen)
2) Escape and move to 200 mile road. There are tons of cities between Detroit and 200 mile road. Yo don't have to run and buy a house a 1.5 hr commute away. But don't blame the all the residents in the city or the city itself and don't blame everyone in the burbs.
Blame those that continue to fuck things up and blame those who run and continue to bash Detroit when they haven't set foot in it since they left. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2655
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:58 am: | |
"Once again, you speak not of what you know."
And once again, you speak out of your ass.
As long as Detroiters continue to behave as if they are living in a third world country, then they can expect the same substandard living conditions many of them have experienced all their lives.
There is simply no way they can continue murdering people and vandalizing the city and expect anything to ever improve. It just won't happen.
If you see another way, I'm all ears. If you can find a solution that allows the level of criminal activity in the city to continue while the city's overall situation improves, by all means, share it with the rest of us. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2656
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:59 am: | |
"Not true. The current city/suburban developments are sufficient for the current population and we are seeing little, if any growth in population.
Your premise would make sense if the area was seeing any real population growth. It is not. "
Jt1, go back and read my post again. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2661
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:00 pm: | |
quote:You people who think the two options here are moving to Davisburg or living in Detroit are completely missing the point, and your arguments are baseless. It is not Detroit being hurt by this anymore, sprawl already decimated that city. It's not even so much the Inner Ring suburbs anymore. The Inner Ring burbs that are succeptible to this effect have already been hit by it. No, now the flight is from Farmington, Commerce, Wolverine Lake, Southfield... Soon their strip malls will empty out, their neighborhoods will have unoccupied homes. This is not Detroit vs. suburbs anymore. It is suburbs vs. suburbs. I think there's a ripple effect where the folks who move out of Commerce et. al. are backfilled by folks moving out of Redford and Oak Park who are backfilled by folks moving out of the middle class neighborhoods of Detroit who are backfilled by those moving out of the lower class neighborhoods.
There's a term for this in real estate economics which I don't recall but the theory is that when there's an excess of housing people will upgrade and the end result is that the least desirable housing gets abandoned. When the music ends the loser in this game of musical chairs is largely going to be certain areas of Detroit. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10711
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:02 pm: | |
Track - That is a fair assessment but the question is how much more will Detroit lose to fill the other communties.
The trend will slow down just because of population loss and places like Warren, Dearborn, etc will start filling the loss further north.
These developments will hit other cities much harder than Detroit. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2116
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:02 pm: | |
>Thejesus
You have proven over and over again that you know little to nothing about the city proper. So until you stop making blanket generalizations that you picked up from the 11 o'clock news and overheard discussions at Bed, Bath and Beyond, we don't really have much to discuss.
(Message edited by iheartthed on November 08, 2007) |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2657
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:04 pm: | |
^and you have proven over and over again that you fail to understand that people don't move towards crime, they move away from it. The crime statistics don't lie. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2117
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:07 pm: | |
^and you have proven over and over again that you fail to understand that people don't move towards crime, they move away from it. The crime statistics don't lie.
Yup, the entire city is one big anarchic mess, right? |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10712
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:13 pm: | |
quote:The crime statistics don't lie.
IS that why per SEMCOG these communities have also lost population since 2000:
Centerline
Easatpointe
Fraser
Grosse Pointe Shores
Mount Clemes
Romeo
St. Clair Shores
Warren
Berkley
Beverly Hills
Bloomfield Hills
Bloomfield Township
Clawsom
Farmington
Farmington Hills
Ferndale
Hazel Park
Huntington Woods
Lake Orion
Lathrup Village
Leonard
Madison Heights
Northville (SEMCOG lists part in parenthesis next to it so I am not certain what they mean)
Pleasant Ridge
Royal Oak
Sylvan Lake
Waterford Township
Wolverine Lake
Allen Park
Belleville
Detroit
Ecorse
Garden City
Grosse Ile Township
All the Grosse Pointes
Harper Woods
Highland Park
Inkster
Lincoln Park
Livonia
Melvindale
northville (again part in parenthesis)
Plymouth
plymouth Township
Redford Township
River Rouge
Riverview
Rockwood
Southgate
Taylor
Trenton
Wayne
Westland
Wyandotte
Some are minor changes but many, many are 5% or greater. I guess people whould quit killing each other in all those communties as well. |