 
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2143
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 3:41 pm: |    |
^Take the Livernois bus to Michigan Ave and hop on the blue line. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3526
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 3:45 pm: | |
I favored the Woodward corridor in my plan because I think the people who live in Ferndale and Royal Oak and Birmingham, and maybe even Berkeley to some extent, do so because they like having a bit of that Urban feeling. Which makes me think they'd be more likely to use something as Urban as a light rail, and also more likely to be interested in visiting the other cities along the line, including Detroit or Pontiac, for shopping and entertainment and such. |
Fmstack
Member
Username: Fmstack
Post Number: 4
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 4:00 pm: | |
Y'all keep stopping the line too short. No, no, stopping at Pontiac up north is fine -- what I mean is, if this is a Dream Line, how come there's no International Station? |
Kslice
Member
Username: Kslice
Post Number: 208
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 4:02 pm: | |
Just having the colored lines built for commuters/ visitors would be incredible. Can you imagine getting from downtown to metro without taking a car? Sounds like heaven.
If only we had the money... |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2145
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 4:13 pm: | |
if this is a Dream Line, how come there's no International Station?
I think it would be a great deal for both Windsor and Detroit to build an international monorail like the DPM. Or maybe even just have a Staten Island Ferry type of deal going back and for across the river. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 557
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 9:26 pm: | |
That would only be a dream though. Everything would have to come into play and stuff (border issues and what not). |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 558
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 9:36 pm: | |
A BRT route (or trolley) would be better along Jefferson because I'm sure those wealthier folks aren't going to be as excited to ride Mass Transit. A Gratiot line would be much more important because it's SMART's busiest routes and one of DDOT's busiest routes. Not to mention that there's an awful pout of recreation and retail people usually go to daily along Gratiot. Also factor in that with a poorer population along this route, there will be more people unable to drive, thus more people that will be riding the transit line. Then it came fall into the old M3 route onto Fort st. Along Jefferson, the stops would probably be too frequent for a light rail. |
Gumby
Member
Username: Gumby
Post Number: 1635
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 11:51 pm: | |
For it really to be a dream line for me you would have to extend it up here to Flint. |
River_rat
Member
Username: River_rat
Post Number: 304
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 12:01 am: | |
This is another "steam locomotives on Woodward" dream. Talk, talk, talk. Until SE Michigan has reasonable political leadership, this is as unlikely as the return of the steam locomotive.
To accomplish any rail transit, a jurisdiction requires federal funding and with the Granholm and Stabinow types in state gov't and the whatevers in the city, the feds will never allow funding. The sole Michigan politico with Washington respect is Carl Levin.
Think busses. |
Jams
Member
Username: Jams
Post Number: 6902
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 7:37 am: | |
Could I dream they'll run on time? |
Rjk
Member
Username: Rjk
Post Number: 935
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 8:03 am: | |
Somewhat off topic, but how effective would having bus lanes on Woodward be as far as saving travel time? Would this even be feasible along Woodward?
I just read a short article about them and I'm curious if they've been successful in other cities. |
Parkguy
Member
Username: Parkguy
Post Number: 141
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:26 am: | |
As much as I'd like to see fixed-rail service all over the region, Bus Rapid Transit makes a lot of short-term sense, except for commuter rail between Birmingham, Metro, and Ann Arbor. BRT will be fast, stopping only at stations, with ticketing all done pre-boarding. It will be much cheaper to build, and once the system is established and successful, light rail could replace it, with the BRT equipment moved to a new route. BRT is on-street, which would drive street-level development at the stations. Commuter rail is off-street, on rail rights of way, which drives development of more parking lots.
Johnlodge & Hudkina-- I really like the maps. I agree about Grand River, which is one of the most heavily-used bus lines in the city. A North-south line along Southfield or Greenfield would serve lots of people and lots of institutions (and serve my neighborhood, to boot!). BRT would work on both of these corridors. I could see BRT in dedicated lanes on the Southfield Expressway with dedicated exits for stations, express only. As for Telegraph, it needs something, but nobody has been able to figure out exactly what Telegraph is for 80 years. It has become more and more of an ugly parkway for through traffic and less and less of a commercial, industrial, or residential corridor over the last 20 years, especially north of Taylor.
I agree with many of the posters: Woodward and Michigan are the most important corridors right now. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3536
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:47 am: | |
quote:I need to see a population distribution map to verify, but I think Detroit is unique in that the population is heavier away from the central areas of the city.
There's a pretty nice population density map here, though it is 7 year old data:
http://www.dataplace.org/map/i ndex.html?place=x69645&replace _place=0&z=1 |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2696
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 11:17 am: | |
I like it...I'd probably have it cut up Old Woodward and more through downtown Birmingham if possible...but it looks similar to what I would imagine will ultimately be in place if we do get a light rail this century |
Bjl7997
Member
Username: Bjl7997
Post Number: 117
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 11:30 am: | |
On all given transit line routes they should install all traffic signals on extended mast arms( or BOOM signals) |
Gravitymachine
Member
Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 1860
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 11:49 am: | |
great, so then bums will be asking me for *light rail* fare to pontiac  |
Wanderinglady
Member
Username: Wanderinglady
Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 12:06 pm: | |
For those who talk about bus lanes, I think that a lot of the idea behind light rail is that we want to encourage people in the 'burbs to come into the city of Detroit, as well as provide transportation for the people who live in the city. Suburbanites aren't going to want to take a bus anywhere (for the most part...I mention an exception below).
That said, I currently live in the Los Angeles area, which has commuter rail, light rail/subways, a dedicated bus line (the popular Orange Line through the San Fernando Valley) and express/"rapid" buses that have limited stops and traffic light priority. Even with all of this, people are still hard pressed to get out of their cars. And let's not forget the expense.
But anything would be better than the system Detroit and its suburbs have now, it seems. |
Rbdetsport
Member
Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 403
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 12:19 pm: | |
Hudkina, I would add a v-line down Gratiot and up Grand River. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3723
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 12:21 pm: | |
quote:As much as I'd like to see fixed-rail service all over the region, Bus Rapid Transit makes a lot of short-term sense, except for commuter rail between Birmingham, Metro, and Ann Arbor. BRT will be fast, stopping only at stations, with ticketing all done pre-boarding. It will be much cheaper to build, and once the system is established and successful, light rail could replace it, with the BRT equipment moved to a new route. BRT is on-street, which would drive street-level development at the stations. Commuter rail is off-street, on rail rights of way, which drives development of more parking lots.
These claims have been made on these forums over and over again. Most of the time, they are completely overblown. There is no appreciable cost savings for BRT over LRT, at least not if you construct BRT such that it's performance nearly equals that of rail. The operating costs, however, are much higher than rail. Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence that bus routes--even with dedicated lanes--have driven real estate development. |
Parkguy
Member
Username: Parkguy
Post Number: 142
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 1:27 pm: | |
danindc said: "Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence that bus routes--even with dedicated lanes--have driven real estate development."
I think the new BRT in Boston is having some success, but I agree that light rail is much more desirable. Lots of people look to Curitiba, Brazil as an example, but that model seems to be uniquely Brazilian. Here's a quote from Wikipedia (which we all know is infallible...)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B us_rapid_transit
"It should be noted that much of the controversy arises from the wide range of definitions of BRT. Many agencies make a clear distinction between a pure BRT, which is in exclusive lanes, and a more compromised form in mixed traffic. For example, the Los Angeles Orange Line runs entirely in an exclusive lane and therefore achieves speed and reliability comparable to rail. Because it is functionally equivalent to rail, the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority presents this line as part of its rail transit system, distinct from its "Rapid" lines, which run in mixed traffic."
I think that is the type of BRT I was talking about, not a dressed-up express line. The important part for me is to have transit on the street right of way. Ideally-- a subway or elevated. There will certainly be folks who will gripe if streetcars take up traffic lanes-- the same goes for any kind of bus lane that runs along with traffic. Heck, there will be lots of griping if we ever get something as simple as HOV lanes on the expressways!
But, along with HOV lanes, we should have street-right-of-way rapid transit, commuter rail, and a much-improved bus system. I don't care if it is light rail or BRT, as long as it isn't a half-effort and it works. |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 330
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:34 pm: | |
How would you connect to the People Mover (or would you bother)? |
Fmstack
Member
Username: Fmstack
Post Number: 6
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:09 am: | |
Y'know, if we're talking about bus rapid transit, I have to mention how weird it is that the buses around here don't seem to run on the freeways much at all. I'm originally from Seattle, and even though Seattle has a woeful lack of mass transit, at least it's got a semi-decent bus system. I used to live in the far north end of Seattle, about 9 miles or so from downtown, and the bus I'd take to get into the city served the northern suburbs, made a couple of stops in my neighborhood, then took the freeway with no stops the last 6-7 miles in. Unless there was really nasty traffic on I-5, it got me into the city in about 15 minutes. If something like that line existed in this area, it'd be a bus that hit Royal Oak and Ferndale, then got on the 75 until the New Center/Wayne State.
Granted, I don't think a line exactly like the Seattle one would work here, what with, y'know, people in this area being scared to death of the city and all. However, I think something along that line with stations built to BRT standards -- indoor stations, pay to get in, visible security, etc. -- would lure a few people out of their cars, at least. |
Parkguy
Member
Username: Parkguy
Post Number: 143
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:36 am: | |
I agree about express routes. They would help a lot. Even a good set of limited routes would help-- and the issue would be the time it takes to get places. If I could catch a limited out here in Rosedale Park and be downtown within a half-hour, I'd use it a lot. I know that there are some limited stops at Greenfield and Grand River for the Northland spur of the route, but only three busses each way M-F. There are a couple of other limiteds listed on the DDOT site. Does anyone know how many routes have limiteds? |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 905
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 4:22 pm: | |
The people I've talked to, who are involved with the management of DDOT and SMART, say there are few "express" or "limited" routes because there aren't many people whose commute is from out there to downtown. If you ride the Gratiot SMART bus inbound during morning rush hour for instance, people are getting on and off all up and down the line, and very few people are on the bus by the time it gets downtown.
This is unusual for a metro area; Detroit now has about as many people commuting outbound as inbound in the morning. Express buses work best when you have lots and lots of people coming from a suburban area into a CBD, but that's not us.
Where rapid transit of any kind fits in here is to make it possible to cover distances quickly to get to whatever local bus (or taxicab, or whatever) takes you the rest of the way to a destination. Also, of course, development happens along rail stations so more employment could be created in such neighborhoods.
But an "express bus" like some cities have is of very limited use here, which is why there's not much of it.
The only DDOT "limited" routes are 70 Crosstown, 72 Dexter, 76 Hayes and 78 Imperial. SMART has a few as well. |
Dougw
Member
Username: Dougw
Post Number: 1985
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 7:26 pm: | |
I like Hudkina's plan best. Question is, can it be done for less than 11 figures? |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 566
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 7:38 pm: | |
What do you all think of 24 hour bus SMART service with timed traffic lights and dedicated lanes in downtown and congested areas to move them faster?
Woodward Ave and the other major routes should have 24 hour bus service according to ridership statistics. |
Bjl7997
Member
Username: Bjl7997
Post Number: 118
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 9:05 am: | |
Hey Trainman,
Can you imagine we having all craned traffic signals on Woodward, Gratiot, Michigan, West Fort, Grand River and Jefferson? like the one on the pic and
|
E_hemingway
Member
Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1398
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 12:01 pm: | |
There is actually something similar to what Johnlodge created in the works right now.
Semcog is talking about extending the proposed commuter rail line connecting Ann Arbor, Ypsilanti, Metro Airport, Dearborn and Detroit north into Oakland County so it would connect to Hamtramck, Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham/Troy and Pontiac. This would use existing tracks and Amtrak stations or stations that could be built easily as part of the demonstration project. However, this is still a few years off from reality.
Detroit, Dearborn, Hamtramck and Highland Park are also looking at creating a mass transit line along either Michigan, Woodward or Gratiot using either light rail, streetcars or BRT. Each of the three corridor options being considered includes the section of Woodward between downtown and New Center. This too is still at least a few years off from becoming a reality. |
Bulletmagnet
Member
Username: Bulletmagnet
Post Number: 930
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 4:38 pm: | |
I propose a "People Canon". A rider would be loaded into a large gun and shot to his destination. I am working on a canon for my dog in the garage right now. |
Rbdetsport
Member
Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 404
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 4:53 pm: | |
E_Hemingway, there is also a study being done on extending the people mover up to New Center. If this extension, along with a Woodward Line(My Preference) and commuter rail from Ann Arbor to Detroit and up to Pontiac are built, this could all be the start of an extensive and successful mass transit system. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3577
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 4:58 pm: | |
I thought a People Mover extension was out of the question because all the molds for parts are no longer in existence. |
Parkguy
Member
Username: Parkguy
Post Number: 145
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 7:57 pm: | |
I remember reading a year or so ago that the system has enough cars right now to support an extension to the New Center and Henry Ford Hospital. |
Detroit313
Member
Username: Detroit313
Post Number: 542
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 8:19 pm: | |
Hey-
That is a great plan, and it would work-But.....
those are long in between stations, so they should be express stations. and every half mile could be local...
just an idea-
<313> |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 611
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 8:22 pm: | |
"I remember reading a year or so ago that the system has enough cars right now to support an extension to the New Center and Henry Ford Hospital."
Well that eliminates a bit of the cost. What about the labor, cement, rails, etc.? |
Rbdetsport
Member
Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 405
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 9:53 pm: | |
Most of the cost is supposed to be covered by WSU, the DMC, and other area businesses in the area with the other small amount coming from City and State money. A 2-way rail through Midtown to New Center was said to only cost $250 million, but I am not sure how accurate the reporting was on that. DDOT also said at one of the scoping meetings that the study group was moving forward with the study. |
Hamtragedy
Member
Username: Hamtragedy
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 12:56 am: | |
I always thought Hamtramck would be a great spot for a massive transfer station considering the huge switching yard on the south side (under the Mt. Elliot/Mound bridge). There's tons of vacant land northwest of the poletown plant, and from that point existing tracks run west (New Center, Southwest, Dearborn, Ann Arbor), north (Hamtramck/Caniff, HP, 7 mile/ John R, Ferndale, RO, Pontiac), and north east (Mt. Clemens). All would converge on the dequindre cut which would be the final leg downtown.
Then again, the Chene bus will get me downtown in 52 minutes from hamtramck, but I can ride my bike there in 15. |
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