 
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1750
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 8:22 am: |    |
".............can the u.s. co's match long term quality?"
Just do a search on eBay for 5 year old domestic cars, how many of them are approaching 200K miles? There's your answer. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 202
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 10:02 am: | |
"Nope that aint gonna do it stsashmoo...... besides many people now work for toyota nad honda and whoever else in the u.s."
Citylover, you need to take your head out of the sand. Tell me where Toyota and Honda have a large presence in Detroit. When Chrysler, GM and Ford are no longer in existence, will Toyota or Honda come over here and take care of our citizens who depend on the auto industry for their livlihood? Like I said before, if you believe that, then I have a bridge for sale if you're interested.
Sstashmoo is absolutely 100% correct in his post. You people with tunnel vision who are supporters of buying foreign need to look around you and see just what devastation has occurred since the American auto industry is shrinking. We Americans are giving our country away in large chunks now, not bits and pieces, and it's time to wake up and take American back. And please don't hand me that line that foreign builds better cars, that's a load of horse pucky. Michigan has one of the highest foreclosure rates in the U.S., can anyone tell me exactly why, other than the subprime loan problem? When people are out of work, they lose their homes, period. It's not just the auto industry job losses either....all the small businesses, from the restaurant down the road from the plant to the small Mom and Pop metal fabricating shops that go down, never to return.
This is what you all need to remember....
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 353
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 10:53 am: | |
What is the domestic content of "American made" cars these days anyway?
Oh, and we got the "WHAT YOU DRIVE DRIVES AMERICA" already, so give it a rest wouldja? |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 3194
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 11:03 am: | |
BuyAmerican, I refuse to buy an automotive product that doesn't meet my criteria simply because it's US-made or US-badged. Buy a turd, as long as it's an American turd? No thanks: it's still a turd, no matter how it's dressed up.
I will agree that the US automakers are close to, if not even with, Toyota and Honda in quality now. However, in terms of purchase price and fuel economy (which is THE most important issue), the domestics still lag behind.
The US-badged cars' styling is fine, by the way. However, styling is not important. A car should provide reliable, low-cost transportation from Point A to Point B. Styling is superfluous.
If Ford (or GM or Chrysler) can make a quality-built hatchback that sells for under $17K (well optioned) AND gets about 35-40 mpg, I'll buy that car. |
Firstandten
Member
Username: Firstandten
Post Number: 124
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 1:00 pm: | |
Actually its more of a matter of US quality getting better and better rather than Toyota quality going down the tubes. The thing to consider is that while companies like Toyota are investing in plants in the US (not Detroit mind you because they won't unionize) The big three are telling their North American based suppliers that they need to ship their parts and jobs from places like China. We need to welcome and support anybody who will provide manufacturing jobs in the US |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 203
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 1:10 pm: | |
Nainrouge, sorry you don't like the bit of wisdom I leave at the end of most of my posts. It needs to be pounded into the minds of many individuals who believe that buying foreign doesn't make a difference in the economy of the U.S. Sad to say, purchasing GM, Ford, or Chrysler is about the only thing that is still largely produced in America.
Please go to www.levelfieldinstitute.org and read up on the domestic content of American made cars is. Maybe it will open your eyes.
Fury 13, I refuse to believe that out of all the automobile models Americans produce you can't find one that satisifies your needs. Back in the 80's, Toyota was a turd and it supposedly had to improve to meet American criteria.
I've been purchasing cars for the last 40 years and every one of them have been American. Yes, I've had problems with a few of them, but those problems were not big enough to make me purchase something other than American, AND, I've found something that was within my budget and could get me from point A to point B.
Every person I know that has purchased foreign has had problems with their cars. They may be very secretive about it because they are ultimately embarrassed that their "great" automobile has a flaw.
I guess every foreign car I see on a flatbed is being taken for a carwash and not to the shop for repairs!
Nainrouge...this is for you
OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN.
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3687
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 1:19 pm: | |
"Styling is superfluous."
"If Ford (or GM or Chrysler) can make a quality-built hatchback that sells for under $17K (well optioned) AND gets about 35-40 mpg, I'll buy that car."
While I agree with you, I think we are in the minority in this country who feel that way. That's why the big three don't sell more vehicles like that in North America. Most Americans do NOT want something the size of a Yaris yet. That may change as oil prices continue to increase, but at this point it would be a loser. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 3198
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 2:26 pm: | |
Buyamerican, "pounding" your point home repeatedly only works in porn movies, not on forums like this.
And yes, NO American car met my criteria. Oh sure, I could have paid more for higher mileage or settled for something like 28 mpg (city) at the price point I could afford to stay with an American vehicle, but I wasn't willing to do that. I won't accept compromises just to buy American. Sorry.
I too, have been purchasing cars for almost 40 years. EVERY American car I've owned had problems -- minor AND major. In particular, the late-model vehicles I owned (Jeeps, '95 and '01) had annoying glitches like plastic trim cracking and/or falling off, knobs and handles falling off, rear wiper motor failure, dash panel rattles... things like that. With some older GM vehicles I owned, I got to experience things like catastrophic engine failure, and replacement, to the tune of thousands of dollars.
No, putting up with such flaws, just to "buy American," doesn't cut it anymore. And, the US makers can't even get their fuel economy figures up there. So where's the incentive?
When Ford, GM, and Chrysler get their act together a little better, they'll probably be able to sell me a car. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 3199
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 2:28 pm: | |
"Most Americans do NOT want something the size of a Yaris yet."
I don't know, Johnlodge... Toyota sold a lot of Yarii in '07 and even added a new model for '08. |
Jdkeepsmiling
Member
Username: Jdkeepsmiling
Post Number: 309
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 2:45 pm: | |
The best selling subcompact in America is by far the Chevrolet Aveo. It averages about 3 times the sales at the Yaris. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 3203
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 2:47 pm: | |
Yes, it's much cheaper. You can get into an Aveo (that's a Korean Daewoo, by the way) for less than $10,000.
I looked the Aveo. It's a tin can -- in other words, feels cheap and flimsy -- and gets lousy fuel economy for its class. |
Jdkeepsmiling
Member
Username: Jdkeepsmiling
Post Number: 310
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 2:49 pm: | |
I am not saying you should have bought one, merely that GM sells the crap out of them. Thats all. |
East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 1255
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 3:16 pm: | |
Does "Total cost of ownership" include the foreclosed homes or no? |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3691
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 3:32 pm: | |
Ford Narrows Asian Labor Gap
"Ford Motor Co. said its new contract with the United Auto Workers comes "very close" to eliminating its labor cost gap with Asian rivals and gives the Dearborn automaker a clear advantage over the other Detroit car companies.
Ford entered this year's pivotal labor negotiations saying it needed to trim hourly labor costs by $30 in order to close the competitive gap with foreign automakers operating in the southern United States.
"We narrowed it substantially," Marty Mulloy, vice president of labor affairs at Ford, said Thursday.
The automaker disclosed that its deal with the UAW allows it to employ a significantly higher percentage of lower-paid workers under a two-tier wage system than the union allowed Chrysler LLC and General Motors Corp. Ford also will save about $2 billion in health care costs annually as a result of the agreement."
"Moody's responded to the news by changing Ford's financial outlook from "negative" to "stable" and increased the rating on its speculative-grade liquidity. However, it did not raise Ford's overall credit rating, saying it will still take several years to realize the full benefits of the agreement."
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20071116/A UTO01/711160370 |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3692
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 3:37 pm: | |
Chevy Tahoe named "Green Car of the Year" at LA Auto Show.
"LOS ANGELES -- The odds were in General Motors Corp.'s favor, considering that three of the five finalists for Green Car of the Year came from the General.
The Chevrolet Tahoe hybrid, however, made the biggest impression with the judges who selected the full-sized SUV as this year's winner at the Los Angeles Auto Show on Thursday.
"This is a milestone in many respects," said Ron Cogan, Green Car Journal editor and publisher.
That's because SUVs typically don't garner consideration for the award. However, Coogan added, the Tahoe, with a 6-liter engine and two-mode hybrid system hits 21 mpg in city driving -- a 50 percent improvement.
"The importance of GM's accomplishment can't be overstated," Cogan said. "For years, consumers have been buying SUVs in increasing numbers because of their functionality, making them the No. 1 class of vehicle on the market."
This is a big deal.
"GM promised they would use hybrid technology and use it where it would make the most difference, on their biggest vehicles," said Carl Pope, executive director of the Sierra Club and one of the judges for the award. "They have delivered with the Chevy Tahoe.""
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20071116/O PINION03/711160366/1364 |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 3206
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 4:29 pm: | |
"Does 'Total cost of ownership' include the foreclosed homes or no?"
Whose foreclosed home? Yours? Because it's certainly not mine.
There would be fewer foreclosures if Michigan had diversified from its one-horse economy years ago. We're too eager to pander to the auto industry here. We made our own mess. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 3207
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 4:30 pm: | |
Johnlodge, re your #3691: that's great news. That's what I'm talking about. Reduce labor costs. |
Softailrider
Member
Username: Softailrider
Post Number: 88
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 4:59 pm: | |
I've said it before I'll say it again , all vehicles work well first few years when they're new . The question is : when you're 7 or 8 years down the line and your car has 200,000 miles on it , which one starts on the January morning when it's 5 degrees outside and you have to get to work or take the kids to school, the Ford or the Honda ? I'm very fortunate , I can afford to buy a car anytime I want . To most people , a 15-20 thousand dollar purchase is HUGE . The vast majority of people aren't dumb, they want quality , but they want Quality that LASTS . |
East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 1256
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 5:10 pm: | |
Fury, no, my home isnt foreclosed on.
Other people have foreclosed homes, other people in our community.
If you don't dig Detroit as the Motor City, why live here and whine about it, versus going someplace you can be proud to live in?
"We" made our own mess, but "it's certainly not mine."
Yeah, right. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 204
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 5:35 pm: | |
I would venture to say that some of those who are writing on this site and are pro foreign have had their paychecks signed by one of the Big "3" or a company that is affiliated with them. However, they still feel they have the "right" to purchase foreign because "no one is going to tell them what to buy with their hard earned money". Having said that, when your paycheck ceases, or your pension check stops, or your health care is gone...go ask Toyota or Honda to pay your bills. While you all bitch and moan about poor American made products, Toyota and Honda are laughing all the way to the bank with your hard earned dollars and Americans will never benefit from those dollars again.
Fury 13...you're still watching porn? I thought you college educated professionals had better things to do in life.
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
(Message edited by Buyamerican on November 16, 2007)
(Message edited by Buyamerican on November 16, 2007) |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 357
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 5:38 pm: | |
Quote: Please go to www.levelfieldinstitute.org and read up on the domestic content of American made cars is. Maybe it will open your eyes.
Well, just to let you know - I always buy American. I am a proud owner of a Chevrolet Prizm and I plan to stick with Chevy and go buy a new Aveo.
WHAT YOU DRIVE DRIVES AMERICA (and Japan, and Korea) |
Hpgrmln
Member
Username: Hpgrmln
Post Number: 276
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 6:50 pm: | |
BuyAmerican-
Your arguments no longer hold water. Once you had the audacity to use the term "horse Pucky" I stopped taking you seriously. |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 359
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 7:07 pm: | |
Or maybe I will buy a Pontiac Matrix ... um I mean Vibe. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 206
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 10:51 pm: | |
Hpgrmln, horse pucky is better than the language I'd like to use with some. I'd like to think of myself as being above the use of foul language anyway.
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! |
Detrola
Member
Username: Detrola
Post Number: 61
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 12:03 am: | |
"WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!"...unless what you drive is a CHEVY HHR. In that case, what you drive, drives MEXICO. |
Firstandten
Member
Username: Firstandten
Post Number: 126
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 2:19 am: | |
Actually everything is so globalized its hard to sort out US content. You just can't go by where the vehicle is assembled because you have to consider the parts content and where they come from. For example you can have toyota's assembled in Georgetown Ky with parts coming from a japanese company with a plant in the US with US workers. Or you can have a Ford or GM assembled overseas with foregn parts suppliers but sold in the US. In other words auto mfg is so globalized its hard to sort out whats US and whats not. You just can't go by where the vehicle is assembled. |
Hpgrmln
Member
Username: Hpgrmln
Post Number: 277
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 7:17 am: | |
How do you staunch pro-America people feel about Canadian cars? Technically, they ARE built in another country, not the US. We get a lot of cars here built in Canada, as well as Mexico. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1754
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 7:25 am: | |
You can elect not to buy a US brand assembled in a country other then US. Canada is OK in my book, union membership, decent pay, good working conditions and a fair trade agreement with our country. None of those element's series exists in its entire-ity with Asian nations or Mexico. I know people that ordered a 45K Suburban and refused it at the Dealership when it showed up and they found out it was assembled in Mexico, not Wisconsin. You have that right as a customer. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 588
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 8:19 am: | |
"How do you staunch pro-America people feel about Canadian cars?"
The key is where the money winds up from the sale. |
Miesfan
Member
Username: Miesfan
Post Number: 44
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 9:25 am: | |
This debate does nothing for the 40 million Americans who purchase used cares every year. In comparison only Americans purchase only 15 million new cars.
It's well-established that a 2-3 year old used car in decent condition is a better deal than a new car but everyone is still bickering about who makes the better new car. Who cares who makes the better new car. No rational person (save the independently wealthy) would waste money on a new car.
I'd love to see user car assessments from Consumer Reports. Oh and for the jingoists, our current vehicle is a 1999 Taurus. We bought it in 2004 and it's held up well. I hope will make it last through 2008. I still miss the 1987 Honda CRX I had in high school. Bought for nothing with 150,000 miles on it. By the time my little brother sold it 8 years later it had over 250,000 miles. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 589
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 9:49 am: | |
Quote: "No rational person (save the independently wealthy) would waste money on a new car."
So they are play things for the wealthy? :-) Thanks for the chuckle. Well, we're headed there, but it's a few years off. With creative financing and special plans, virtually anyone can afford a new car. Sometimes it's cheaper to own a new one if the old one is problematic and factoring in repair costs, lost wages, etc. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 207
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 10:23 am: | |
"It's well-established that a 2-3 year old used car in decent condition is a better deal than a new car but everyone is still bickering about who makes the better new car. Who cares who makes the better new car. No rational person (save the independently wealthy) would waste money on a new car."
Miesfan, I beg to differ. If all you can afford is a used car, so be it...but when you buy new you get a full warranty, used cars don't have the same warranty (unless, of course, you purchase one).
If I go into a Chrysler dealer and purchase a new Chrysler 300 that was assembled in Canada, all the profits from that car stays in the U.S. The only benefit Canadians get are the wages that the employees were paid.
If I buy a Toyota, other than the wages that either Americans make assembling the car, profits go overseas. Simple as that!
If I am wrong in that analogy, please tell me.
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! |
Firstandten
Member
Username: Firstandten
Post Number: 127
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 11:08 am: | |
Buyamerican- So the bottom line is where the profits go ? Profits are very important but you can't discount the wages that are paid. To the common worker wages are the name of the game. Those folks in Georgetown Ky know that they have money to do whatever they need to do. I don't think they care that the profits may be going back to Toyota City Japan. You may not like it but Toyota's wages has had a significant economic effect in the Georgetown/Lexington area. Isn't the bottom line the fact that are US workers are working and maintaining a decent standard of living regardless of who owns the company. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3696
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 11:14 am: | |
"No rational person (save the independently wealthy) would waste money on a new car."
As someone who can do a lot of my own work on a car, I prefer to have one new car and one used car for the household. I can save a lot of money on cost and labor on the used car, but it's nice to have that new dependable vehicle that is under warranty. I don't want to be in a constant state of doing break jobs and replacing CV joints, especially in the colder months. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 208
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 1:08 pm: | |
I feel like I'm beating my head up against a wall. Pro foreign will never get it until it hits you in the pocketbook. I buy American whenever I can, cars or otherwise. I do my share for America because this is where I live.
You pro foreign people can't see the forest for the trees. You have a mind set that won't change until it's too late.
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1412
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 1:10 pm: | |
Buy a Toyota Matrix and the profits go to Tokyo.
Buy a Pontiac Vibe and the profits go to Detroit.
Is it so hard to figure out?
Stop obsessing on where parts come from or the plants the foreigns build in the non-union South, and think about the net effect on our economy. |
Vas
Member
Username: Vas
Post Number: 857
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 1:25 pm: | |
If you care about this town, buy American plain and simple. |
Miesfan
Member
Username: Miesfan
Post Number: 45
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 1:53 pm: | |
The average American puts 100,000 miles on a car in 5 years.
The cost per mile to drive a $20,000 2005 Ford Taurus SE (purchased new) for 100,000 miles is about $0.23 a mile on a 48 month/3.9% car loan.
The cost per mile to drive the two-year-old version of that same car from 40,000 miles to 100,000 miles is $0.16 per mile on a 36 month/5.9% car loan. The Blue Book value on that car (private owner) is $8450.
So under that scenario is costs the new car buyer an additional $0.07 a mile to drive essentially the same car. Yes the used car buyer will have to purchase two cars in a given five year period compared to the new car buyers one. And the used car buyer will have some extra maintenance costs.
But over a five-year period the used car buyer will spend $7000 less on their car compared to the new car buyer. To be fair, factor in an additional $2000 in maintenance costs for the used car buyer and he is still saving $1000 a year. Consider that most American families own two cars and the savings double.
Keep in mind both the used car buyer and the new car buyer will both end up with a 2005 Ford Taurus SE with 100,000 miles in 2010 to trade-in. Currently a 5-year-old Ford Taurus (2002) with 100,000 Blue Books for $4930 (good condition, private seller).
What does a $1000 a year get you these days? How about one mortgage payment. Making one extra mortgage payment a year on an average 30-year fixed rate mortgage allows a person to pay off their mortgage 7 years early. We don't own a home but it's nice having that extra money in our retirement accounts and mutual funds rather than in our car.
Buyamerican is right. WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA...deeper and deeper into debt. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 209
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 3:07 pm: | |
Miesfan, deeper and deeper into debt is totally wrong. You don't get the big picture. How you or anyone else can think that by buying foreign you are doing right by this country is beyond me. You have tunnel vision and after all the conversations back and forth, for or against, you will never be convinced. I certainly wish the best for you, but if you persist in purchasing foreign automobiles while living in the U.S., it will eventually hit you in your most prized possession, your pocketbook.
This WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! will never change until Japan or China take over America totally. I hope I never see it in my day, but it's approaching fast. |
Miesfan
Member
Username: Miesfan
Post Number: 47
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 3:44 pm: | |
I actually don't own any car of any kind. My girlfriend owns a 1999 Ford Taurus that we share. Personally I don't care what kind of car anyone drives that's their business.
What I am trying to say is purchasing a new car (foreign or domestic) is a bad investment. It makes more financial sense to by a good used car. if we needed to purchase a second car I would look for the best deal on the best used car I could find from a private seller.
Fortunately my girlfriend and I have set up our lives so we don't have long daily commutes so I doubt we'd need another car. On average we drive less than 100 miles a week. It's wonderful to spend less time stuck in a car and more time doing more productive things.
The case study above makes the point quiet nicely. |
Firstandten
Member
Username: Firstandten
Post Number: 130
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 5:13 pm: | |
Buyamerican- I understand your frustation. However we in the US created the conditions that are affecting our jobs and making us unable to determine what is American and what's not.
Back in the day when the big 3 was king they acted as a true Oligopoly, and the vehicles were built with a consideration for planned obsolescence (or crappy quality). This allowed the Germans and the Japanese and others to make inroads into our car manufacturing base. Once true competition arrived the US car manufacturers had to get rid of the planned obsolescence which they have done, thats why quality is better. Hammer the union on wages and benefits, in order to remain competitive. And hammer the supply base by asking them to produce parts in low cost countries and asking for constant cost give-backs. So now the American consumer can truly purchase a vehicle that suits his/hers needs at a price they want to pay. However it may not be an american vehicle. This is what the consumer, wanted true competition. However as you have noted we have paid a price with fewer US jobs.
Thats why I made the statement to embrace the jobs no matter where they come from because I don't think we're going back to the 1960's and 70's anytime soon. |
Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover
Post Number: 2741
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 5:16 pm: | |
Quite right miesfan. For example say you wanted to buy a top flight car, anew caddy would st you back more than say a 3-5 yr old lexus.......but the lexus would by far be the better buy. Always buy used. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 590
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 6:05 pm: | |
Quote: "What I am trying to say is purchasing a new car (foreign or domestic) is a bad investment."
Ahh to be young again. When you get some years on you, you'll understand that purchasing goods is an investment in society, the society you live in. Relying on someone else to make it pop while you survive on overflow is a rather hollow and/or selfish existence. Get a job, buy what you want. If you have a job and still have to live like that, go back to school.
It's a bit perplexing, how many folks seem to ignore the fact that their purchases do matter. Or do they just not realize when they purchase foreign and the money leaves, that it affects them as much as it does anyone else? |
Hpgrmln
Member
Username: Hpgrmln
Post Number: 278
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 6:47 pm: | |
I thought that non-unionized jobs for non-big 3 companies in the US were comparable in pay and benefits to the same unionized job title. Essentially Toyota line-workers are as well-paid and taken care of as UAW workers except without union politics getting in the way. Does anyone have information to post about this? |
East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 1257
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 7:04 pm: | |
Without union politics getting in the way?
Or because of the threat of a union?
So, non-unionized benefit from the unionized, once more. |
Detrola
Member
Username: Detrola
Post Number: 62
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 8:07 pm: | |
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!...even if what you drive is a VOLVO. Assembled in Sweden, profits eventually make their way to Dearborn, MI.
So many seem to site the sad state of the Michigan economy as yet another reason to buy an "American" car. If the "American" car you buy has 49% foreign content and is assembled in Canada or Mexico you have done little more for the Michigan economy than someone who bought a Volvo.
The issue of Buy American as it pertains to cars is a very complicated one. Some of you seem to see it as black and white, when in reality it is a very gray issue. The UAW acknowledges this fact.
The UAW website has a list of American cars that they recommend based on parts origin and country of assembly. |
Jimaz
Member
Username: Jimaz
Post Number: 3837
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 8:28 pm: | |
http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/ind ex.cfm |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 360
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 10:36 pm: | |
Who cares where the profits go? American Auto execs and stockholders in US companies (who may or may not be American)do. Where do these fat cats spend their money? Buying French wine and vacationing in Italy?
For 90% of Americans, it is the wages that count. I am not going to cry over the remaining 10% and I DON'T believe in trickle-down. The rich amass their wealth and do little to drive the economy. Therefore, I would rather buy a car from a foreign company that pays decent wages and has a factory in this country than a US company that is building its cars in Mexico. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 591
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 12:03 am: | |
LOL |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 210
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 1:46 am: | |
Sstashmoo...It's a losing battle and until these people feel it where it hurts the most...in the pocketbook, they will continue on this downward spiral. I'm glad I have my American car and that I did my best to support my neighbors who work at the Warren Plant, the Jefferson Jeep plant, Sterling Heights Stamping, etc.
So much for the fighting American spirit and supporting the U.S.
We must be a dying breed.
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 592
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 12:02 pm: | |
Buy,
It amazes me how easily these folks are convinced that another country's agenda will be beneficial to them. When Toyota, Honda and Nissan no longer have to pay somewhat competitive wages in this country, they won't. They could care less about this country. To them, it's just another market to exploit. When our industries have been depleted and we're reduced to a near-third world economy, they'll be gone.
The corporate spin doctors have done a great job pushing their "global economy" premise, and convincing everyone we're in one wether we like it or not. Watching last nights democratic debate, the trade questions were the most entertaining. Them trying to explain their "position" on trade. Hmm, could campaign contributions have anything to do with their opinions?
"Oh but it's much more complicated than just supporting American companies"
This isn't getting better anytime soon.
(Kucinich won that debate incidently) |
Miesfan
Member
Username: Miesfan
Post Number: 48
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 12:06 pm: | |
quote:Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 590
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 6:05 pm: Edit PostDelete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
Quote: "What I am trying to say is purchasing a new car (foreign or domestic) is a bad investment."
Ahh to be young again. When you get some years on you, you'll understand that purchasing goods is an investment in society, the society you live in. Relying on someone else to make it pop while you survive on overflow is a rather hollow and/or selfish existence. Get a job, buy what you want. If you have a job and still have to live like that, go back to school.
It's a bit perplexing, how many folks seem to ignore the fact that their purchases do matter. Or do they just not realize when they purchase foreign and the money leaves, that it affects them as much as it does anyone else?
I trust then that you are on the 100-mile diet. http://100milediet.org/
And for what it's worth I only purchase my used cars from genuine American private sellers.
(Message edited by miesfan on November 18, 2007) |
Miesfan
Member
Username: Miesfan
Post Number: 50
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 9:14 pm: | |
quote:I trust then that you are on the 100-mile diet. http://100milediet.org/
I will assume the 33 hours of silence means the answer is a no.
I hope it feels good driving your brand-new domestic car to that very American Wal-Mart to purchase a Tyson chicken processed by illegal immigrant labor in bona fide U-S-of-A factory down in Arkansas.
As an added bonus, those Tyson chicken farms pump God-fearin' flag-wavin' waste into the United States largest river, the mighty Missipp.
It's morning in America. And that stench? That's the smell of the industrial economy.
quote:If tomorrow all the things were gone I’d worked for all my life,
And I had to start again with just my children and my wife.
I’d thank my lucky stars to be living here today,
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom and they can’t take that away.
And I’m proud to be an American where at least I know I’m free.
And I won’t forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
And I’d gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land God bless the U.S.A.
From the lakes of Minnesota, to the hills of Tennessee,
across the plains of Texas, from sea to shining sea,
From Detroit down to Houston and New York to LA,
Well, there’s pride in every American heart,
and it’s time to stand and say:
I’m proud to be an American where at least I know I’m free.
And I won’t forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
And I’d gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land God bless the U.S.A. |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 1038
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 9:27 pm: | |
I have a 2002 Tauras w 55000 miles that's been nearly flawless. The passenger side window can't be controlled from the driver side power window control. But that's about it.
I enjoy the car and would by another one.
The big 3 obviously f'd up not only in quality but in gearing cars to tasts of at least the subculture of coastal urban professionals.
I will say that people are not entirely fair. I love the market research where they show buyers a toyota with the name badges removed and say its a chevy and the car gets panned. Or how the geo prism had such lower customer sat scores than the near identical toyota corrolla made in thes same plant by toyota.
One thing: the adds and sytling of the domestics always seem way off key to me from a California perspective. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 596
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 1:14 am: | |
Quote: "I will assume the 33 hours of silence means the answer is a no."
I'm not making the correlation. |
Mikie
Member
Username: Mikie
Post Number: 113
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 9:12 am: | |
Some more good news for GM, although I'm sure someone here will rip it apart.
"Motor Trend Magazine has named the new Cadillac CTS its 2008 car of the year, saying it is proof that Detroit can build a world-class sedan."
“There’s really not a lot of difference at all between BMW, Mercedes and Cadillac,” he said in an interview Monday.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21 888664/ |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 3222
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 11:41 am: | |
"If you don't dig Detroit as the Motor City, why live here and whine about it, versus going someplace you can be proud to live in?"
Hopefully, in the future, Detroit can be MORE than just the Motor City. I would like to see a Detroit with a strong, diversified economy -- an economy not dependent on any one industry. The hard lessons that we are learning as a result of the auto industry slump may help spur that diversification.
Let's face it: most of those who boost Detroit do so simply because "it's home." Well, I don't believe that hometown pride is enough. "Detroit, right or wrong," doesn't fly with me. I get tired of the mindless rah-rah.
If you OBJECTIVELY made a list of the top urban places to live in North America, based on economic health, jobs, quality of life, crime rate, transit, etc., etc., Detroit would not emerge very high on the list.
Most people who live here do so because it's where they grew up... it's where they have ties to friends or family. However, looking at Detroit through a skeptical eye reveals that it's not a perfect place. There's room for improvement. I feel that there's nothing wrong with advocating for that improvement.
If you simply boost your home town "right or wrong," and become a fervent cheerleader for its flaws as well as its positive points, you've basically become a Texan. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 599
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 3:05 pm: | |
Fury, what were you saying when everyone in this city was making double what the rest of the country was? When a person with just a high school diploma could make ridiculous wages for putting a bolt in the same hole all day. And now the auto industry is slumped and it's "see I told ya" Funny stuff. Detroit is dying because many Americans no longer support our products, plain and simple. Reasons for that are many, but the results are still the same. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 3223
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 3:30 pm: | |
"Fury, what were you saying when everyone in this city was making double what the rest of the country was? When a person with just a high school diploma could make ridiculous wages for putting a bolt in the same hole all day."
I always thought that was -- as you said -- ridiculous. Well, things have a way of evening out after awhile.
But don't get me wrong. I don't root for Detroit to die; I root for Detroit to CHANGE -- to shake the bad habit of being addicted to the auto industry, and get healthier. |
New threads cannot be started on this page. The threads above are previous posts made to this thread.